When you run out of stamina, cast a damage shield. Well, cast a damage shield when the previous one is down. You don't need much stamina actually. This is what people do in 1.6.

The original post in this thread is one I heavily disagree with.

Kingdinguhling wrote: »

The Double Standard - Currently on PTS in PVP if you are running a Stamina Build and you run out of magicka no big deal you just hold block and drink a potion till you can reapply a shield. BUT if you are running a magicka build and run out of Stamina you are dead almost immediately.

What exactly keeps you from chugging a stamina potion while blocking?

Kingdinguhling wrote: »

I think this simple fact that stacking stamina has a double effect on your defenses and DPS is really breaking this game. Where as the nerf to damage shields probably contributed but I'm not sure.

And someone stacking magicka cannot use this for healing/shielding in addition to offensive use?

Kingdinguhling wrote: »

How can this be balanced?

For the first time in ESO, stamina builds become viable, on par with magicka builds.
You seem not to be asking for balance, but the good old over the top advantage back that magicka enjoys before patch 1.6.

True balance is going to take a bit to see when it comes live. No game I have ever seen has ever been able to 100 % balance for 1v1, most balance comes when you get into large scale battles. We might find that light armor users will be needed for large scale battles. Without seeing the full picture (and having quite a while for people to test out new builds) we will have trouble telling if everything is balanced.

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

-12% increased weapon damage with MA but no 12% increased spell damage with LA.

just going to comment on this tho, spell penetration at times can be greater then weapon damage. Depending on who you are fighting you could see a greater DPS increase with the spell penetration (as long as they fix the nirnhoined bug) then you would with weapon damage, primarily heavy armor who have high spell resistence. You could also see a lower increase in dps, damage shields / low spell resistence players, then weapon damage. I am hoping that we will see a place for each of the armor sets in large scale battles now.

Nihil wrote: »

True balance is going to take a bit to see when it comes live. No game I have ever seen has ever been able to 100 % balance for 1v1, most balance comes when you get into large scale battles. We might find that light armor users will be needed for large scale battles. Without seeing the full picture (and having quite a while for people to test out new builds) we will have trouble telling if everything is balanced.

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

-12% increased weapon damage with MA but no 12% increased spell damage with LA.

just going to comment on this tho, spell penetration at times can be greater then weapon damage. Depending on who you are fighting you could see a greater DPS increase with the spell penetration (as long as they fix the nirnhoined bug) then you would with weapon damage, primarily heavy armor who have high spell resistence. You could also see a lower increase in dps, damage shields / low spell resistence players, then weapon damage. I am hoping that we will see a place for each of the armor sets in large scale battles now.

That won't happen until LA gives much greater spell resistance bonus and they increase the armour it gives.

At the moment, it is like wearing tissue paper armour against chainsaws in PvP, and also PvE.

The 1.5 armour numbers were quadrupled for MA and HA. They were only doubled for LA and to add insult to injury, MA and HA are better in most other respects except making magicka skills cheaper.

But then magicka is not as good at stamina for dps now...

On Sorcerers for PvE this has created the perfect storm of class nerf and preferred armour nerf.

There is no reason I can divine for making LIGHT ARMOUR SO MUCH WORSE than the others... perhaps Zenimax would be so good as to explain it?

As NB I don't got a single reason to stay Magicka, I don't got class based shields or heals anyway.
With the new CP system I'm also able to cast cloak, fear, healing ward and other Magicka stuff quite often even as pure Stamina Build.

Stamina:
- more burst / Dps compared to Magicka, thanks to higher possible weapon dmg stacking
- more defense thanks to nearly infinity dodges
- Magicka completely free for utility stuff
- better heal (Vigor) or should I say only heal, cause NB doesn't got any?
- attacks ignoring Harness
- higher armor / spell resi than light Armor

Magicka:
- less Burst / Dps
- less defense
- waste all Stamina to unblockable stuns, nothing left for dodge, bash or block
Even then you're barely able to get enough Stamina to break every single stun
- Resto heals are good, Vigor and dodge spam are better.
- Harness Magicka.. Useless against Stamina
- your attacks get absorbed by Harness, which mostly is the reason for endless fights
- very low armor and spell resi
- enough Magicka for utility spells like cloak, but it's not like you need to cast 20 cloaks in a short time, at least not in duels

Any reason for NBs going Magicka except for AoE sap tank?

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Nihil wrote: »

True balance is going to take a bit to see when it comes live. No game I have ever seen has ever been able to 100 % balance for 1v1, most balance comes when you get into large scale battles. We might find that light armor users will be needed for large scale battles. Without seeing the full picture (and having quite a while for people to test out new builds) we will have trouble telling if everything is balanced.

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

-12% increased weapon damage with MA but no 12% increased spell damage with LA.

just going to comment on this tho, spell penetration at times can be greater then weapon damage. Depending on who you are fighting you could see a greater DPS increase with the spell penetration (as long as they fix the nirnhoined bug) then you would with weapon damage, primarily heavy armor who have high spell resistence. You could also see a lower increase in dps, damage shields / low spell resistence players, then weapon damage. I am hoping that we will see a place for each of the armor sets in large scale battles now.

That won't happen until LA gives much greater spell resistance bonus and they increase the armour it gives.

At the moment, it is like wearing tissue paper armour against chainsaws in PvP, and also PvE.

The 1.5 armour numbers were quadrupled for MA and HA. They were only doubled for LA and to add insult to injury, MA and HA are better in most other respects except making magicka skills cheaper.

But then magicka is not as good at stamina for dps now...

On Sorcerers for PvE this has created the perfect storm of class nerf and preferred armour nerf.

There is no reason I can divine for making LIGHT ARMOUR SO MUCH WORSE than the others... perhaps Zenimax would be so good as to explain it?

It might tho, it all depends on how each type are influenced by the other armor types, and how much these types will show up in PVP. Say in mass combat you have a 2 handed sorc / NB (using these 2 classes as the other 2 have a disparity I do think with their natural spell resistance passives, one of the should of been an armor passive imo) that is decked out in high grade heavy armor, going to say 40 % damage and spell mitigation. Who would you like to have support the front line from the walls? Archers in medium armor or Spell casters in light? I would personally (based on the knowledge we have gotten so far) prefer the light armor players in general for this scenerio, the reason being they will do more damage. While medium armor gets a passive increase to damage (going to guess ~ 6 % damage increase from weapon damage, after major brutality buff) Light armor gets a % increase depending on the armor value the opponent has. For 4700 spell penetration you basically negate ~7 % damage mitigation, for the example of 40 % damage mitigation from spell resistance, you actually gain an ~11 % increase to damage while only having to wear 5 pieces of armor (light armor gains no more damage bonus after the 5th piece if I remember correctly, medium will lose ~2.8 crit rate by dropping two medium armor pieces. This means that light armor gains more by diversifying armor beyond the 5th piece then medium armor does). From the PTS we have also seen that bows / range magicka does similar damage, some classes being superior to bow damage from the tests that have come out so far.

This tho is very dependent on what armor people will end up wearing in pvp medium armor will work wonders against light armor as they have little armor / bubble shields have no armor. I am hoping that Heavy armor will be viable for anti melee(medium armor) / survivability later on while in a mass group setting, as this will then add a reason to have those spell casters in the back.

For PVE players haven't finalized all their rotation and builds yet. We have seen Melee 2H fighters ranging from like 15 - 17kish (based on the bloodspawn fight test thread) We have seen 11k ish dps from a bow (same person blood spawn test admits he might not have had the gear for bow so could be higher). We have seen 10k + for magicka sorcs (without combat prayer and aggressive horn) We have seen at least 9k for NB's (no combat prayer or aggressive horn). It is going to take a while for people to finalize all their builds to figure out how things stand for PVE, and how each set up will do for the fights now.

Basically what I am saying, is for PVP we haven't seen how things will work out in a grand scale battle and have had largely small scale / duels in pvp to test out balance (which their will always be imbalances in 1v1 fights). For PVE we haven't had enough time to fully test all builds in the end game trials / dungeons.

Sharee wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Kingdinguhling wrote: »

There is absolutely no Draw backs to Medium Armor Stamina Builds atm on PTS.

Look at all the class skills.

Look at how many of them are magicka-based.

There is your drawback.

show me just one class ability as expensive in medium/heavy armor as stamina defense abilities are in light armor.

Blocking and CC breaking in medium armor is just as expensive as in light armor. .

you aint need to block or cc break if you are rolling all day long in combination with 20%++ perma evade in medium armor.

Tankqull wrote: »

you aint need to block or cc break if you are rolling all day long in combination with 20%++ perma evade in medium armor.

You also have better stamina regeneration in medium, compared to heavy or light. So stamina comes back up faster, after using a cc-break. I have no issues with that, or the fact that stamina based abilities are way cheaper in medium or that you can dodge roll half the map with 20% evade.

Problem is screwed balance on PTS. Where medium right now is better than heavy for tanking, due to disproportionate mits, superior sustain allowing skill spam with more power for skill strength. Also better than light for dps by miles, due to weapon power being easier to stack and you get higher survivability to.

The way ZoS keeps re-directing imbalance instead of pushing for proportional builds, it's baffling. LA was superior for the most part until patches 1.4-1.5 started making builds more equal. But now they're doing it again, but with a medium meta. If this goes live I'm officially terrified.

Sharee wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Kingdinguhling wrote: »

There is absolutely no Draw backs to Medium Armor Stamina Builds atm on PTS.

Look at all the class skills.

Look at how many of them are magicka-based.

There is your drawback.

show me just one class ability as expensive in medium/heavy armor as stamina defense abilities are in light armor.

Blocking and CC breaking in medium armor is just as expensive as in light armor. .

Medium gets stamina cost reduction. This applies to everything that cost stamina. This is why you will see some tank using stam cost reduction instead of block cost reduction.

Weapon damage can be stacked much higher than spell through many more opportunities. There is a med armor passive that is literally two light armor passives in one.

Balanced ? Give me an increased spell damage enchant for my weapon or a mundas stone equivalent to the warrior to boost my spell power. IMO make the atronach mundas stunt magicka regen and add to spell power like it has always done for years prior to ESO.

Tankqull wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Kingdinguhling wrote: »

There is absolutely no Draw backs to Medium Armor Stamina Builds atm on PTS.

Look at all the class skills.

Look at how many of them are magicka-based.

There is your drawback.

show me just one class ability as expensive in medium/heavy armor as stamina defense abilities are in light armor.

Blocking and CC breaking in medium armor is just as expensive as in light armor. .

you aint need to block or cc break if you are rolling all day long in combination with 20%++ perma evade in medium armor.

Rolling all day long means doing zero damage all day long, unlike spamming shields all day long. The former is also way more expensive.

Kingdinguhling wrote: »

... I think this simple fact that stacking stamina has a double effect on your defenses and DPS is really breaking this game. ...

This part of your sentiment is rather interesting considering that, prior to 1.6, Stamina having the double cost of paying for both defense and offense was viewed as game-breaking in a negative manner for Stamina builds.

Samadhi wrote: »

Kingdinguhling wrote: »

... I think this simple fact that stacking stamina has a double effect on your defenses and DPS is really breaking this game. ...

This part of your sentiment is rather interesting considering that, prior to 1.6, Stamina having the double cost of paying for both defense and offense was viewed as game-breaking in a negative manner for Stamina builds.

So I assume you agree that it is idiotic to swing this far in the other direction instead of creating balance and increasing player choice?

If you are advocating some kind of stamina build 'revenge'... well...

Stamina builds in Trials are, right now, out-performing magicka builds... so your perceived bias is wrong for PvE. And if you are commenting on PvP alone, you are being as ridiculously blinkered as Zenimax seems to be. Many problems caused by this swingy patch have been caused by PvP balancing brought about in a way which has ignored the impact on PvE.