Feed Back -The Double Standard of Magicka Build VS Stamina Build

Kingdinguhling

Why I believe Magicka Builds need a Significant Buff to DPS Especially ranged DPS.

I don't want them to Nerf wrecking blow its a really good combo atm but it does feel a bit overpowered and everyone is running stamina builds.

I do believe Dual wield might need a slight buff.

The Double Standard - Currently on PTS in PVP if you are running a Stamina Build and you run out of magicka no big deal you just hold block and drink a potion till you can reapply a shield. BUT if you are running a magicka build and run out of Stamina you are dead almost immediately. I think this simple fact that stacking stamina has a double effect on your defenses and DPS is really breaking this game. Where as the nerf to damage shields probably contributed but I'm not sure.

My question is if they can add a significant buff to Magicka Builds for Spell power to regain the integrity of spell shields? (are most shields effected by spell power?)

Just a signifigant buff to spell power would also increase the DPS to magicka builds and there attractiveness.

Could they raise or scale Stamina regeneration differently to make it more effective for people with almost no points in stamina?

Could they scale magicka differently?

a Stamina build at the moment on PTS can just drop all 62 points in Stamina and still be very effective with just a few points in the CP system in Magicka regen and they can block forever without restriction and cast magicka shields without running out of magicka.

How can this be balanced?

trimsic_ESO

When you run out of stamina, cast a damage shield. Well, cast a damage shield when the previous one is down. You don't need much stamina actually. This is what people do in 1.6.

Septimus_Magna

Its unbalanced for a number of reasons:
-MA has 3x more armor and SPELL resistance than LA (thiefs blocking spells better than mages, lore breaking and unlogical imo)
-12% increased weapon damage with MA but no 12% increased spell damage with LA.
-increased ulitily with reduce cost to break free, roll dodge and sneak.

Solanum

The original post in this thread is one I heavily disagree with.

Kingdinguhling wrote: »

The Double Standard - Currently on PTS in PVP if you are running a Stamina Build and you run out of magicka no big deal you just hold block and drink a potion till you can reapply a shield. BUT if you are running a magicka build and run out of Stamina you are dead almost immediately.

What exactly keeps you from chugging a stamina potion while blocking?

Kingdinguhling wrote: »

I think this simple fact that stacking stamina has a double effect on your defenses and DPS is really breaking this game. Where as the nerf to damage shields probably contributed but I'm not sure.

And someone stacking magicka cannot use this for healing/shielding in addition to offensive use?

Kingdinguhling wrote: »

How can this be balanced?

For the first time in ESO, stamina builds become viable, on par with magicka builds.
You seem not to be asking for balance, but the good old over the top advantage back that magicka enjoys before patch 1.6.

Kingdinguhling

I'm not saying that I don't love my Stamina Build Templar but like Medium Armor there needs to be some benefit to wearing Light Armor. There is absolutely no Draw backs to Medium Armor Stamina Builds atm on PTS. and believe me the Surge of 2 handers everywhere shows it.

I think its great they Buffed Stamina Builds. I love it. I just think that the fact that you run out of Stamina on a magicka build it kills you and the fact that if you run out of Magicka on a Stamina Build your fine is kinda a double standard.

And just look at the Evidence. there is so many atm going stamina its very apparent.

And I Roll Both. Magicka Sorc and Stamina Templar.

Just trying to find even more balance.

Nihil

True balance is going to take a bit to see when it comes live. No game I have ever seen has ever been able to 100 % balance for 1v1, most balance comes when you get into large scale battles. We might find that light armor users will be needed for large scale battles. Without seeing the full picture (and having quite a while for people to test out new builds) we will have trouble telling if everything is balanced.

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

-12% increased weapon damage with MA but no 12% increased spell damage with LA.

just going to comment on this tho, spell penetration at times can be greater then weapon damage. Depending on who you are fighting you could see a greater DPS increase with the spell penetration (as long as they fix the nirnhoined bug) then you would with weapon damage, primarily heavy armor who have high spell resistence. You could also see a lower increase in dps, damage shields / low spell resistence players, then weapon damage. I am hoping that we will see a place for each of the armor sets in large scale battles now.

Sharee

Kingdinguhling wrote: »

There is absolutely no Draw backs to Medium Armor Stamina Builds atm on PTS.

Look at all the class skills.

Look at how many of them are magicka-based.

There is your drawback.

byrom101b16_ESO

Nihil wrote: »

True balance is going to take a bit to see when it comes live. No game I have ever seen has ever been able to 100 % balance for 1v1, most balance comes when you get into large scale battles. We might find that light armor users will be needed for large scale battles. Without seeing the full picture (and having quite a while for people to test out new builds) we will have trouble telling if everything is balanced.

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

-12% increased weapon damage with MA but no 12% increased spell damage with LA.

just going to comment on this tho, spell penetration at times can be greater then weapon damage. Depending on who you are fighting you could see a greater DPS increase with the spell penetration (as long as they fix the nirnhoined bug) then you would with weapon damage, primarily heavy armor who have high spell resistence. You could also see a lower increase in dps, damage shields / low spell resistence players, then weapon damage. I am hoping that we will see a place for each of the armor sets in large scale battles now.

That won't happen until LA gives much greater spell resistance bonus and they increase the armour it gives.

At the moment, it is like wearing tissue paper armour against chainsaws in PvP, and also PvE.

The 1.5 armour numbers were quadrupled for MA and HA. They were only doubled for LA and to add insult to injury, MA and HA are better in most other respects except making magicka skills cheaper.

But then magicka is not as good at stamina for dps now...

On Sorcerers for PvE this has created the perfect storm of class nerf and preferred armour nerf.

There is no reason I can divine for making LIGHT ARMOUR SO MUCH WORSE than the others... perhaps Zenimax would be so good as to explain it?

Tankqull

Sharee wrote: »

Kingdinguhling wrote: »

There is absolutely no Draw backs to Medium Armor Stamina Builds atm on PTS.

Look at all the class skills.

Look at how many of them are magicka-based.

There is your drawback.

show me just one class ability as expensive in medium/heavy armor as stamina defense abilities are in light armor.

Soulac

As NB I don't got a single reason to stay Magicka, I don't got class based shields or heals anyway.
With the new CP system I'm also able to cast cloak, fear, healing ward and other Magicka stuff quite often even as pure Stamina Build.

Stamina:
- more burst / Dps compared to Magicka, thanks to higher possible weapon dmg stacking
- more defense thanks to nearly infinity dodges
- Magicka completely free for utility stuff
- better heal (Vigor) or should I say only heal, cause NB doesn't got any?
- attacks ignoring Harness
- higher armor / spell resi than light Armor

Magicka:
- less Burst / Dps
- less defense
- waste all Stamina to unblockable stuns, nothing left for dodge, bash or block
Even then you're barely able to get enough Stamina to break every single stun
- Resto heals are good, Vigor and dodge spam are better.
- Harness Magicka.. Useless against Stamina
- your attacks get absorbed by Harness, which mostly is the reason for endless fights
- very low armor and spell resi
- enough Magicka for utility spells like cloak, but it's not like you need to cast 20 cloaks in a short time, at least not in duels

Any reason for NBs going Magicka except for AoE sap tank?

cazlonb16_ESO

The 2h/Bow full medium armour build pretty much everyone is running on PTS needs a substantial nerf, there is just no way around it.

Nihil

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Nihil wrote: »

True balance is going to take a bit to see when it comes live. No game I have ever seen has ever been able to 100 % balance for 1v1, most balance comes when you get into large scale battles. We might find that light armor users will be needed for large scale battles. Without seeing the full picture (and having quite a while for people to test out new builds) we will have trouble telling if everything is balanced.

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

-12% increased weapon damage with MA but no 12% increased spell damage with LA.

just going to comment on this tho, spell penetration at times can be greater then weapon damage. Depending on who you are fighting you could see a greater DPS increase with the spell penetration (as long as they fix the nirnhoined bug) then you would with weapon damage, primarily heavy armor who have high spell resistence. You could also see a lower increase in dps, damage shields / low spell resistence players, then weapon damage. I am hoping that we will see a place for each of the armor sets in large scale battles now.

That won't happen until LA gives much greater spell resistance bonus and they increase the armour it gives.

At the moment, it is like wearing tissue paper armour against chainsaws in PvP, and also PvE.

The 1.5 armour numbers were quadrupled for MA and HA. They were only doubled for LA and to add insult to injury, MA and HA are better in most other respects except making magicka skills cheaper.

But then magicka is not as good at stamina for dps now...

On Sorcerers for PvE this has created the perfect storm of class nerf and preferred armour nerf.

There is no reason I can divine for making LIGHT ARMOUR SO MUCH WORSE than the others... perhaps Zenimax would be so good as to explain it?

It might tho, it all depends on how each type are influenced by the other armor types, and how much these types will show up in PVP. Say in mass combat you have a 2 handed sorc / NB (using these 2 classes as the other 2 have a disparity I do think with their natural spell resistance passives, one of the should of been an armor passive imo) that is decked out in high grade heavy armor, going to say 40 % damage and spell mitigation. Who would you like to have support the front line from the walls? Archers in medium armor or Spell casters in light? I would personally (based on the knowledge we have gotten so far) prefer the light armor players in general for this scenerio, the reason being they will do more damage. While medium armor gets a passive increase to damage (going to guess ~ 6 % damage increase from weapon damage, after major brutality buff) Light armor gets a % increase depending on the armor value the opponent has. For 4700 spell penetration you basically negate ~7 % damage mitigation, for the example of 40 % damage mitigation from spell resistance, you actually gain an ~11 % increase to damage while only having to wear 5 pieces of armor (light armor gains no more damage bonus after the 5th piece if I remember correctly, medium will lose ~2.8 crit rate by dropping two medium armor pieces. This means that light armor gains more by diversifying armor beyond the 5th piece then medium armor does). From the PTS we have also seen that bows / range magicka does similar damage, some classes being superior to bow damage from the tests that have come out so far.

This tho is very dependent on what armor people will end up wearing in pvp medium armor will work wonders against light armor as they have little armor / bubble shields have no armor. I am hoping that Heavy armor will be viable for anti melee(medium armor) / survivability later on while in a mass group setting, as this will then add a reason to have those spell casters in the back.

For PVE players haven't finalized all their rotation and builds yet. We have seen Melee 2H fighters ranging from like 15 - 17kish (based on the bloodspawn fight test thread) We have seen 11k ish dps from a bow (same person blood spawn test admits he might not have had the gear for bow so could be higher). We have seen 10k + for magicka sorcs (without combat prayer and aggressive horn) We have seen at least 9k for NB's (no combat prayer or aggressive horn). It is going to take a while for people to finalize all their builds to figure out how things stand for PVE, and how each set up will do for the fights now.

Basically what I am saying, is for PVP we haven't seen how things will work out in a grand scale battle and have had largely small scale / duels in pvp to test out balance (which their will always be imbalances in 1v1 fights). For PVE we haven't had enough time to fully test all builds in the end game trials / dungeons.

Sharee

Tankqull wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Kingdinguhling wrote: »

There is absolutely no Draw backs to Medium Armor Stamina Builds atm on PTS.

Look at all the class skills.

Look at how many of them are magicka-based.

There is your drawback.

show me just one class ability as expensive in medium/heavy armor as stamina defense abilities are in light armor.

Blocking and CC breaking in medium armor is just as expensive as in light armor. .

Tankqull

Sharee wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Kingdinguhling wrote: »

There is absolutely no Draw backs to Medium Armor Stamina Builds atm on PTS.

Look at all the class skills.

Look at how many of them are magicka-based.

There is your drawback.

show me just one class ability as expensive in medium/heavy armor as stamina defense abilities are in light armor.

Blocking and CC breaking in medium armor is just as expensive as in light armor. .

you aint need to block or cc break if you are rolling all day long in combination with 20%++ perma evade in medium armor.

asteldian

To be fair a lot of the reason so many are running 2h and bow is because they have been waiting a whole year to do so.
I think light is to squishy though, I am not even a dress wearer and think it was too much.
I think light should have the same resist as medium does and medium should have resist more like lights armor. Heavy is strongest against all, medium is strong against melee, vulnerable to magic, light is strong against magic, weak against melee.

eliisra

Tankqull wrote: »

you aint need to block or cc break if you are rolling all day long in combination with 20%++ perma evade in medium armor.

You also have better stamina regeneration in medium, compared to heavy or light. So stamina comes back up faster, after using a cc-break. I have no issues with that, or the fact that stamina based abilities are way cheaper in medium or that you can dodge roll half the map with 20% evade.

Problem is screwed balance on PTS. Where medium right now is better than heavy for tanking, due to disproportionate mits, superior sustain allowing skill spam with more power for skill strength. Also better than light for dps by miles, due to weapon power being easier to stack and you get higher survivability to.

The way ZoS keeps re-directing imbalance instead of pushing for proportional builds, it's baffling. LA was superior for the most part until patches 1.4-1.5 started making builds more equal. But now they're doing it again, but with a medium meta. If this goes live I'm officially terrified.

technohic

I'll believe it when I see it as I am not sold on stamina builds with WB in particular being the end all be all. Probably great for ganking and if you can isolate a target for 1v1, but when it gets into the scrum of charging through the oils into a keep and up the stairs, or stacking on the flag; I fail to see that being very effective. Its hard enough to see an individual target in those large fights let alone hit them without being melted by the AOE all over the place.

EDIT: Although I do see a problem with light armor itself as far as being too squishy. I just don't see the practical use for a lot of these stamina builds.

manny254

Sharee wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Kingdinguhling wrote: »

There is absolutely no Draw backs to Medium Armor Stamina Builds atm on PTS.

Look at all the class skills.

Look at how many of them are magicka-based.

There is your drawback.

show me just one class ability as expensive in medium/heavy armor as stamina defense abilities are in light armor.

Blocking and CC breaking in medium armor is just as expensive as in light armor. .

Medium gets stamina cost reduction. This applies to everything that cost stamina. This is why you will see some tank using stam cost reduction instead of block cost reduction.

Armitas

manny254 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Kingdinguhling wrote: »

There is absolutely no Draw backs to Medium Armor Stamina Builds atm on PTS.

Look at all the class skills.

Look at how many of them are magicka-based.

There is your drawback.

show me just one class ability as expensive in medium/heavy armor as stamina defense abilities are in light armor.

Blocking and CC breaking in medium armor is just as expensive as in light armor. .

Medium gets stamina cost reduction. This applies to everything that cost stamina. This is why you will see some tank using stam cost reduction instead of block cost reduction.

There is something going on with stamina cost reduction on pts. Both cp and glyph feat cost reductions are not reducing block cost. Glyphs do reduce roll, but CP does not reduce roll or block. I have not tested break free. I have not tested medium armor but it may be giving the same effect and not applying to block. I bugged the glyphs.

wrathofrraath

Weapon damage can be stacked much higher than spell through many more opportunities. There is a med armor passive that is literally two light armor passives in one.

Balanced ? Give me an increased spell damage enchant for my weapon or a mundas stone equivalent to the warrior to boost my spell power. IMO make the atronach mundas stunt magicka regen and add to spell power like it has always done for years prior to ESO.

Lava_Croft

Soulac wrote: »

Any reason for NBs going Magicka except for AoE sap tank?

Either that or (in my case) go back to being a healer.

Sharee

Tankqull wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Kingdinguhling wrote: »

There is absolutely no Draw backs to Medium Armor Stamina Builds atm on PTS.

Look at all the class skills.

Look at how many of them are magicka-based.

There is your drawback.

show me just one class ability as expensive in medium/heavy armor as stamina defense abilities are in light armor.

Blocking and CC breaking in medium armor is just as expensive as in light armor. .

you aint need to block or cc break if you are rolling all day long in combination with 20%++ perma evade in medium armor.

Rolling all day long means doing zero damage all day long, unlike spamming shields all day long. The former is also way more expensive.

jelliedsoup

Nah magicka is only used for one thing. It shouldn't be on par with stamina.

Samadhi

Kingdinguhling wrote: »

... I think this simple fact that stacking stamina has a double effect on your defenses and DPS is really breaking this game. ...

This part of your sentiment is rather interesting considering that, prior to 1.6, Stamina having the double cost of paying for both defense and offense was viewed as game-breaking in a negative manner for Stamina builds.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO

Solanum wrote: »

The original post in this thread is one I heavily disagree with.

Kingdinguhling wrote: »

The Double Standard - Currently on PTS in PVP if you are running a Stamina Build and you run out of magicka no big deal you just hold block and drink a potion till you can reapply a shield. BUT if you are running a magicka build and run out of Stamina you are dead almost immediately.

What exactly keeps you from chugging a stamina potion while blocking?

Kingdinguhling wrote: »

I think this simple fact that stacking stamina has a double effect on your defenses and DPS is really breaking this game. Where as the nerf to damage shields probably contributed but I'm not sure.

And someone stacking magicka cannot use this for healing/shielding in addition to offensive use?

Kingdinguhling wrote: »

How can this be balanced?

For the first time in ESO, stamina builds become viable, on par with magicka builds.
You seem not to be asking for balance, but the good old over the top advantage back that magicka enjoys before patch 1.6.

i dont think he want to to go back to op. but the fact that medium has 2/3 more spell resist than light is a real issue.

byrom101b16_ESO

Samadhi wrote: »

Kingdinguhling wrote: »

... I think this simple fact that stacking stamina has a double effect on your defenses and DPS is really breaking this game. ...

This part of your sentiment is rather interesting considering that, prior to 1.6, Stamina having the double cost of paying for both defense and offense was viewed as game-breaking in a negative manner for Stamina builds.

So I assume you agree that it is idiotic to swing this far in the other direction instead of creating balance and increasing player choice?

If you are advocating some kind of stamina build 'revenge'... well...

Stamina builds in Trials are, right now, out-performing magicka builds... so your perceived bias is wrong for PvE. And if you are commenting on PvP alone, you are being as ridiculously blinkered as Zenimax seems to be. Many problems caused by this swingy patch have been caused by PvP balancing brought about in a way which has ignored the impact on PvE.

Kingdinguhling

Yea I don't want to see Stamina broken I play both. I have a stamina Templar and a Magicka Sorc.

But what does seem to be a easy fix is adding more spell penetration or spell power to Light armor doesn't seem to be registering with them. My sorcerer is terrible right now and I cant even imagine a Templar Magicka build. and hybrids are obsolete. Also Sorcerer spell cost is just horrendous.... you got to have some serious magicka regen or reduction to do anything. makes it really hard for lvling with random armor. I can see yea at endgame in PVP they can be very formidable but that's with a idealistic armor set.

no more dual wielding casters.

I just wish they would fix the base system so both are closer to equal or keep adjusting regularly till they get it right. not just implement and forget about it for months.

Same thing with the XP they buffed in 4 months ago in dungeons and its still awful. Why not keep buffing till its on par or barely sub par so its a option for VR1-14.