State of the Game: Bolt Escape - Broken Talons - Developers

Zafu · May 2014

Aside from the class skill balance issues, I'd just like to say this game may be the most enjoyable on every level since Asherons Call where I played on the Darktide PVP server. As a point of reference, Ultima Online remains my all time favorite game and began playing that on release day back in September 1997.

This game is so freaking fun and the details are amazing; lore, graphics, sound, content and that elusive quality called FUN there is no simple formula for is found in spades here. Aside from fixing remaining bugs, the key to long-term success will be found in how well classes are balanced and how much content can be incorporated in to the game in a reasonable fast rate. I'm not just talking about PvE content; as PvP is my primary love.

First character I rolled is a Nightblade. Currently Vet 5. I have also leveled a scorcerer, Dragon Knight & Templar to varying levels; played all beta weekends and spend at least half of my game time in Cyrdiil.

It's as clear as day to me, my guild mates and frankly, every group I've joined in Cyrdiil and had the pleasure to speak with in TS, that above all else there are two obvious balance issues and the two most OP classes in this game are obviously Mages & Dragon Knights. Bolt escape in its current mechanics is simply put, stupid, lame and has no place in a PvP setting in its current mode. It needs to be adjusted. Broken Talons is so over powered it's sickening and that skill in addition to the entire class needs to be adjusted.

Enough threads have been written, videos shared, detailed thoughts expressed, so what really has me scratching my head is wondering what on earth the developers are thinking. Clearly we have an extremely talented team behind this game. Of that there can be no doubt. So I am only left asking myself "Self, do the devs actually play their own game and if so, do they ever PVP"? I ask this knowing that if they do, all the issues expressed here and other threads would be known and addressed. It's wonderful to have player feedback but at the end of the day you'd think the developers would know most of this themselves as anyone would who spends any amount of time in the game PVPing.

On the other hand, perhaps the Devs. think Bolt Escape, Broken Talons and the two most preferred classes (DK & Scorc) are just fine. If that's the case I can save my breath and adjust to accepting there are only two viable classes for PVP in this game and continue playing with that understanding, because as it is currently, that's clearly the case.

In the absence of further word or action I'll just use my V5 nightblade to craft and focus on leveling my DK and Scorc. Only problem with this is the game really won't be a lot of fun with just two classes ultimately in Cyrdiil, which is almost what it's like now.

-Zafu

Mykah · May 2014

The fix to BE is a 20% mana cost, fixing the issue of high end sorcs being able to cast it 10+ times.

The fix to Talons is making it a 1 time AE effect instead of a sustained ground effect.

Balance.

Mykah · May 2014

Note that both these fixes would not break Pve utility while bringing much needed balance to Pvp.

Erock25 · May 2014

There are a lot of things broken OP about a DK other than Talons, by the way.

Maverick827 · May 2014

Erock25 wrote: »

There are a lot of things broken OP about a DK other than Talons, by the way.

Nah

Obscure · May 2014

Bolt isn't OP. People aren't building for speed so they get left in the dust. I'm a DK, no speed boosting class skills, and catch them all the time. Build to catch them or stop whining.

Talons isn't OP. It's the general root mechanics do not have any practical counters that are a problem. This go's for every immobilize effect, Talons is just the easiest to use. The secondary problem with any AoE is how much ultimate they can generate as opposed to single target abilities. Since ultimate reductions additively stack this means the player can spam AoE's and spam Ultimates as long as there are enough targets around to hit. This should be only 5 with Talons as that is the designed cap, but it's currently bugged and just hits as many things as it feels like hitting. ZOS knows about all of that and are looking into fixing Talons as well as determining what to implement to give players the ability to counter immobilize effects.

This has all been covered over and over again. I swear a new one of these threads pop up every effin' day...

Zafu · May 2014

This is why the Devs need to play the game as a Templar or Nightblade and experience all this first-hand. That's the only way for the truth to come out and genuine solutions created.

Based upon your remarks, it's not worth debating. You are DK and that sums it up.

I will say this; bolt escape is not just about speed. It's about the ability to spam a relocation ability on the battlefield instantly and even worse, provides stuns in its morph.

Yes, this has all been covered. The Devs need to step in, make it a priority and let us know its decisions so we can move forward on the same page. They don't have to agree with me or anyone else, but I have a right to know what they think so I can stop guessing.

KoooZ · May 2014

Mykah wrote: »

The fix to Talons is making it a 1 time AE effect instead of a sustained ground effect.

Balance.

It IS a one time effect. Unless I'm misunderstanding you. Once its cast whatever is there gets rooted and that's it. There's no ground effect AFAIK.

Or is this some kind of setup to cry spam casting

vicNBitis · May 2014

DKs are getting buffixed(new word...spread it around) in 1.1. Please don't hold your breath, Zafu. I'm guessing ZOS has an interview with the world first Craglorn clearers planned and they obviously need DKs for that.

Wifeaggro13 · May 2014

Zafu wrote: »

Aside from the class skill balance issues, I'd just like to say this game may be the most enjoyable on every level since Asherons Call where I played on the Darktide PVP server. As a point of reference, Ultima Online remains my all time favorite game and began playing that on release day back in September 1997.

This game is so freaking fun and the details are amazing; lore, graphics, sound, content and that elusive quality called FUN there is no simple formula for is found in spades here. Aside from fixing remaining bugs, the key to long-term success will be found in how well classes are balanced and how much content can be incorporated in to the game in a reasonable fast rate. I'm not just talking about PvE content; as PvP is my primary love.

First character I rolled is a Nightblade. Currently Vet 5. I have also leveled a scorcerer, Dragon Knight & Templar to varying levels; played all beta weekends and spend at least half of my game time in Cyrdiil.

It's as clear as day to me, my guild mates and frankly, every group I've joined in Cyrdiil and had the pleasure to speak with in TS, that above all else there are two obvious balance issues and the two most OP classes in this game are obviously Mages & Dragon Knights. Bolt escape in its current mechanics is simply put, stupid, lame and has no place in a PvP setting in its current mode. It needs to be adjusted. Broken Talons is so over powered it's sickening and that skill in addition to the entire class needs to be adjusted.

Enough threads have been written, videos shared, detailed thoughts expressed, so what really has me scratching my head is wondering what on earth the developers are thinking. Clearly we have an extremely talented team behind this game. Of that there can be no doubt. So I am only left asking myself "Self, do the devs actually play their own game and if so, do they ever PVP"? I ask this knowing that if they do, all the issues expressed here and other threads would be known and addressed. It's wonderful to have player feedback but at the end of the day you'd think the developers would know most of this themselves as anyone would who spends any amount of time in the game PVPing.

On the other hand, perhaps the Devs. think Bolt Escape, Broken Talons and the two most preferred classes (DK & Scorc) are just fine. If that's the case I can save my breath and adjust to accepting there are only two viable classes for PVP in this game and continue playing with that understanding, because as it is currently, that's clearly the case.

In the absence of further word or action I'll just use my V5 nightblade to craft and focus on leveling my DK and Scorc. Only problem with this is the game really won't be a lot of fun with just two classes ultimately in Cyrdiil, which is almost what it's like now.

-Zafu

What seriously needs adjustments is melee .its severly under powered. And light armor needs to be looked at. Magica recovery works much better then health or stam. Both sorc and dk's specing in these god mode specs have one thing in common. Light armor. The insane amount of magica is allowing for unlimited spells. DK healing through everything while spamming impulse(which. By the wayis destro)and ccing with talons . Combine that with dunmer and a fire staff its a aoe nightmare.
the simple fact is you dont see either of those classes doing it in heavy armor. Its a specific build and quite frankly its the destro staff /resto staff swap and light armor that are making the im balance.combine that with nightblade being so terrible and templar having a whole line dedicated to healing.. its making for some very un happy pvpr's. In vr group dungeons the playing field is slightly better . There are serious issues but its more about certain builds being op not entire classes. Some of the things in dk are completely useless

Wifeaggro13 · May 2014

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Zafu wrote: »

Aside from the class skill balance issues, I'd just like to say this game may be the most enjoyable on every level since Asherons Call where I played on the Darktide PVP server. As a point of reference, Ultima Online remains my all time favorite game and began playing that on release day back in September 1997.

This game is so freaking fun and the details are amazing; lore, graphics, sound, content and that elusive quality called FUN there is no simple formula for is found in spades here. Aside from fixing remaining bugs, the key to long-term success will be found in how well classes are balanced and how much content can be incorporated in to the game in a reasonable fast rate. I'm not just talking about PvE content; as PvP is my primary love.

First character I rolled is a Nightblade. Currently Vet 5. I have also leveled a scorcerer, Dragon Knight & Templar to varying levels; played all beta weekends and spend at least half of my game time in Cyrdiil.

It's as clear as day to me, my guild mates and frankly, every group I've joined in Cyrdiil and had the pleasure to speak with in TS, that above all else there are two obvious balance issues and the two most OP classes in this game are obviously Mages & Dragon Knights. Bolt escape in its current mechanics is simply put, stupid, lame and has no place in a PvP setting in its current mode. It needs to be adjusted. Broken Talons is so over powered it's sickening and that skill in addition to the entire class needs to be adjusted.

Enough threads have been written, videos shared, detailed thoughts expressed, so what really has me scratching my head is wondering what on earth the developers are thinking. Clearly we have an extremely talented team behind this game. Of that there can be no doubt. So I am only left asking myself "Self, do the devs actually play their own game and if so, do they ever PVP"? I ask this knowing that if they do, all the issues expressed here and other threads would be known and addressed. It's wonderful to have player feedback but at the end of the day you'd think the developers would know most of this themselves as anyone would who spends any amount of time in the game PVPing.

On the other hand, perhaps the Devs. think Bolt Escape, Broken Talons and the two most preferred classes (DK & Scorc) are just fine. If that's the case I can save my breath and adjust to accepting there are only two viable classes for PVP in this game and continue playing with that understanding, because as it is currently, that's clearly the case.

In the absence of further word or action I'll just use my V5 nightblade to craft and focus on leveling my DK and Scorc. Only problem with this is the game really won't be a lot of fun with just two classes ultimately in Cyrdiil, which is almost what it's like now.

-Zafu

What seriously needs adjustments is melee .its severly under powered. And light armor needs to be looked at. Magica recovery works much better then health or stam. Both sorc and dk's specing in these god mode specs have one thing in common. Light armor. The insane amount of magica is allowing for unlimited spells. DK healing through everything while spamming impulse(which. By the wayis destro)and ccing with talons . Combine that with dunmer and a fire staff its a aoe nightmare.
the simple fact is you dont see either of those classes doing it in heavy armor. Its a specific build and quite frankly its the destro staff and light armor that are making the im balance.combine that with nightblade being so terrible and templar having a whole line dedicated to healing.. its making for some very un happy pvpr's. In vr group dungeons the playing field is slightly better . There are serious issues but its more about certain builds being op not entire classes. Some of the things in dk are completely useless as are the daedric pets for sorc

ErilAq · May 2014

DK: Fiery grip-15m (can be morphed to 22m)
NB: Teleporting stike-22m (can be morphed to stun, make target take 30% more damage on next attack
Templar: focused charge-22m (can be morphed to make casting enemies off balanced)
Sorcerer: Bolt escape- 15m (can be morphed to stun opponent and do minor damage)

bolt escape has the lowest amount of distance traveled out of these abilities. It's also a defensive spell, while these are all offensive. meaning bolt escape does little to no damage while these all do damage or increase damage done, not to mention stuns, snares, and interrupts. Bolt escape is an annoyance, but is in no way shape or form overpowered.

vicNBitis · May 2014

And how long does it take for the second cast?

Wifeaggro13 · May 2014

ErilAq wrote: »

DK: Fiery grip-15m (can be morphed to 22m)
NB: Teleporting stike-22m (can be morphed to stun, make target take 30% more damage on next attack
Templar: focused charge-22m (can be morphed to make casting enemies off balanced)
Sorcerer: Bolt escape- 15m (can be morphed to stun opponent and do minor damage)

bolt escape has the lowest amount of distance traveled out of these abilities. It's also a defensive spell, while these are all offensive. meaning bolt escape does little to no damage while these all do damage or increase damage done, not to mention stuns, snares, and interrupts. Bolt escape is an annoyance, but is in no way shape or form overpowered.

Its useless in pve aside from a gap closer. I think what is pissing people off is it is keeping any melee spec from ever touching them combine it with no hard targeting they are annihalting people with no chance of ever hitting them. As for talons its pissing people of when 4 or 5 dk shield charge into a 25 man ball and spam it rooting the whole raid while they spam impulse destroying everyone. The problem would not exist if they spread out more . Burning talons has *** range and will only root and debuff the target nearest the caster.

Comaetilico · May 2014

vicNBitis wrote: »

And how long does it take for the second cast?

more than the time you need to land firey grip (tested)... don't know about the charges since some of them have some conspicious animation... and it should be around the same time as the NB teleport (tested with a 40% success... actualy the sorc get the advantage of choosing the direction... if he chose to teleport trough the nb and start in melee range than the NB will not have enough time to turn 180° and use the teleport before the sorc makes a second blink... if he goes trough him while not in melee he may end up being within range even after the second blink and this will give the NB enough time... and if he blink in direction opposed of the nb whil starting close to him the nb have the time to teleport to him... so it's actualy a question of player ability if can escape or not against a good nb...)

what makes those blinking sorcerer unable to be cought is the fact that really few pwople play melee in PvP (not questioning the reason for this... I'm well aware of the many problem that melee character have in this PvP... I still don't see it as bad as many seem to think but sure as hell they got some disadvantage... still I always thought that melee is something that is as good as skilled is the player... noob in melee are worse than noob with ranged weapons... the more the player ability increase the lesser the gap)... and due to this sorc begin to blink away while the enemy is still ranged... when you add the range to the distance covered by the first blink you find that he is already out of range... so actualy the best counter for a blinker sorc is a melee character ^^ for a ranged he is almst unreachable (I lol at this since skill like blink are usually meant as escape to counter melee ^^' )

talons great adavante against other roots are 2:
1) being a 360° AoE... that makes it EASIER to use... you just run in the middle of the enemy and spam the skill no mater when the enemy is moving no matter what your facing... this is one big advantage when compared with skill like encase or bombard... botha AoE rots that are instead directional...
2) the absence of a limit in target... this one is something being adressed in 1,1... so nothing to say on this...

aside from those 2 point the problem as said by others before is in the Root condition by itself... a spammable condition that you can't get immunity for... and that cost a lot to breack (dodge roll isn't actualy gratis ^^') is something obviously not good... pair it up with PBAoE... and we all know what the result is... again what makes talon king of this play is the 360° effect... a perfect pair for the most used PBAoE... Impulse...

vicNBitis · May 2014

I'm glad such a short question could elicit such a long, thoughtful response!

But basically the answer I was looking for was: instant(same as the first). So unless the sorcerer's opponent knows exactly where they will come out and is furiously mashing his(or her) instant cast attack they have no hope.

Think that's about what we already knew.

Zafu · March 2015

I left this game out of utter frustration with balance and just returned.

Would any of you be kind enough to respond to this old thread I created last year to help me understand what's changed with these issues?

Thank you. -Zafu

Panda244 · March 2015

Zafu wrote: »

I left this game out of utter frustration with balance and just returned.

Would any of you be kind enough to respond to this old thread I created last year to help me understand what's changed with these issues?

Thank you. -Zafu

Dragonknights have been brought on par with the other two classes, odd one out remains Sorcerer, because they're so pitifully weak it's sad, overall, the game is much better balanced than it was at launch, there's still a few minor tweaks, but don't feel like you need to pay for it again, you can just wait for B2P to launch in a week and see whats what then.

david.haypreub18_ESO · March 2015

They nerfed Bolt Escape so that successive casts within a few seconds add to the cost. I don't see too many people complaining about it.

Talons is still OP. It is partly due to immobilizes not granting CC immunity (some would say it is solely due to Talons not granting CC immunity); this means there are few good counters to Talons and all of them cost more in resources than a DK with the right spec spends to cast it. Some DKs feel that Talons is not OP 1v1, but they admit it is OP in a group, since 6 DKs can (and often due) lock down larger groups of players by spamming the skill and forcing whole groups of players to be constantly dodge rolling and purging while the DKs pound away.

There was a poll on the boards a few months back about which was the dominant class in PvP. DKs were at about 55%, and the next highest class was at about 5%. That should give you an idea of how powerful people thought DKs skills were.

Will this change in 1.6? We'll see today. They have nerfed Reflective Scales to only reflect 4 projectiles, which might help. They did nothing about Talons though.

Zafu · March 2015

Thank you very much.

Must admit after all this time I'm surprised Talons has not been addressed head-on.

Sorry to hear they may have gone too far with Scorcs.

I subscribed because I wanted the benefit of prior months with the crown bonus. I also very much loved this game; balance was my only issue with it. I didn't want to wait until the 17th; and will judge whether to remain subscribed or not after the 17th.

Will be interesting to see how all this feels after today's patch.

Oh, I need a guild; but guess that's another post on another forum. I'm NA playing EP

Joy_Division · March 2015

If talons really frustrated you, I wouldn't resub because you are just going to get frustrated if you continue to play the way that you did in May.

If you are open to breaking your old habits, I would suggest the following: do *not* break a DK's talons. It is a high cost spell that does moderate damage at best. You can still attack and defend yourself just fine. Only move if there is a pressing reason to (batswarm, standard, incoming zerg).

Tankqull · March 2015

vicNBitis wrote: »

And how long does it take for the second cast?

~0.8-1.0sec for all four.

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

ErilAq wrote: »

DK: Fiery grip-15m (can be morphed to 22m)
NB: Teleporting stike-22m (can be morphed to stun, make target take 30% more damage on next attack
Templar: focused charge-22m (can be morphed to make casting enemies off balanced)
Sorcerer: Bolt escape- 15m (can be morphed to stun opponent and do minor damage)

bolt escape has the lowest amount of distance traveled out of these abilities. It's also a defensive spell, while these are all offensive. meaning bolt escape does little to no damage while these all do damage or increase damage done, not to mention stuns, snares, and interrupts. Bolt escape is an annoyance, but is in no way shape or form overpowered.

Its useless in pve aside from a gap closer. I think what is pissing people off is it is keeping any melee spec from ever touching them combine it with no hard targeting they are annihalting people with no chance of ever hitting them. As for talons its pissing people of when 4 or 5 dk shield charge into a 25 man ball and spam it rooting the whole raid while they spam impulse destroying everyone. The problem would not exist if they spread out more . Burning talons has *** range and will only root and debuff the target nearest the caster.

and thats not true. with more and more people actually using gap closing abilities because of beeing melees instead of ranged players- its nearly impossible to escape anymore as a sorc.

deepseamk20b14_ESO · March 2015

NB is the strongest class in PvP when played right 1v1 or even 2v1, IMO. Even without burst self heals. DK's are great at Xv1. Even good temps can survive easily when odds are against them. Sorcs are not as weak as people think. I know a few sorcs who are ridiculously good. It's all about how you play and any class can become OP.

The_Drexill · March 2015

Every class has a broken setup... DK's were always just the most broken.

The game isn't balanced for 1v1 at all, not even a little bit. It really is balanced at all period, but the upside is that every faction can be broken, so it's....ok.

1.6 changes a lot, hopefully for the better... but we're going to have to give this dev team some time to learn... they're pretty new at this and I imagine extremely inexperienced.