Wasn't that excited about the justice system till I tried it

Ziggsrpg_ESO · February 2015

Seriously I really thought this was just going to be a minor thing in the game. With the effort that ZoS put into building these refuges and implementing changes to houses and goods in town I really think this is going to be the start of a huge part of the game. Fingers crossed the thieves guild is not that far off and maybe just maybe the dark brotherhood! Anyway here is my video looking at how the system will work and hopefully convincing you that this is something to get excited about

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01FrWIHKPd8

Samadhi · February 2015

Am excited for when the PvP aspect is finally implemented.

ThatNeonZebraAgain · February 2015

Samadhi wrote: »

Am excited for when the PvP aspect is finally implemented.

If it implemented, you mean. Because that exact word was used by Paul Sage during the last Reddit AMA in reference to the PvP portion of the Justice System

Anyways, I agree with OP. People somehow aren't seeing the JS as new content, when I would argue that it actually provides quite a bit.

Kuro1n · February 2015

Yeah kinda losing hope on PVP parts, doesn't seems like ZOS is taking the PVP aspects of things serious.

WarrioroftheWind_ESO · February 2015

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Am excited for when the PvP aspect is finally implemented.

If it implemented, you mean. Because that exact word was used by Paul Sage during the last Reddit AMA in reference to the PvP portion of the Justice System

Anyways, I agree with OP. People somehow aren't seeing the JS as new content, when I would argue that it actually provides quite a bit.

I can think of a few people...most likely the die hard "Hurr I only do PVP I don't give a *** about PVE PVE SUCKS hurr!" crowd.

People too easily forget that what sets Elder Scrolls rpgs apart from any other RPG is about how open and rounded the world is. You can quite literally do ANYthing. I spent most of my time on PTS dabbling in Legerdemain and it seems to adopt more of the Skyrim 'take everything even if its nailed down' approach rather than the cutesey 'Robin Hood steal from *** and give to nice people' angle from Morrowind and Oblivion.

I think they did add rare chances to loot epic items worth 5k or more, but gold just for sneaking around and looting what you could take before? Hells yeah. I'll likely be spending more time doing that than PVP come live.

People forget too that there's alot of locations in Cyrodiil outside of merely the keeps and resources and scroll temples. There's isolated hamlets, abandoned houses, bandit lairs, etc. with lootable possibilities. Heck I wonder if alot of areas with the doors previously padlocked will be accessible now.

If you explored alot of the refuges, you might've noticed some interesting details particularly in the EP ones. For example you run into a familiar friend from Morrowind in Deshaan, as well as the stereotypical nekkid Nord with a twist. And check out the Riften refuge. Nostalgia high.

Stealing in Skyrim made me physically tense because you didn't have access to broken ass permanent chameleon (plus stealth in Morrowind and Oblivion was kind of broken as ***...) I'd feel just about the same way stealing in PTS. I had not tried the strong boxes (they were misnamed Steam From a few iterations ago lol...) But I believe there's passives that increase the chance to force a lock.

I guess people are too busy screaming bloody murder about how much they're being 'forced' to grind for champion points or that their class is now broken to look at how much effort ZOS put into taking ESO away from being a run-of-the-mill MMO to a real ES game.

DeLindsay · February 2015

Nice video, I have added it to my Legerdemain thread in the OP. There are a few things on your video that aren't 100% correct but it's a great tutorial none the less.

Ziggsrpg_ESO · February 2015

DeLindsay wrote: »

Nice video, I have added it to my Legerdemain thread in the OP. There are a few things on your video that aren't 100% correct but it's a great tutorial none the less.

Thanks! If you would be willing to point out my inaccuracies I'll make corrections or at least leave an annotation mentioning it.

Kragorn · February 2015

Samadhi wrote: »

Am excited for when the PvP aspect is finally implemented.

That's when this game will go downhill when in comes to the non-Cyrodiil world experience. This game doesn't need open-world PVP and I seriously hope ZOS decide not to do it.

Kragorn · February 2015

WarrioroftheWind_ESO wrote: »

People too easily forget that what sets Elder Scrolls rpgs apart from any other RPG is about how open and rounded the world is. You can quite literally do ANYthing.

The TES series may be somewhat different from other RPG 'franchises', but ESO is a generic theme-park MMO with a few novel mechanics but beneath the surface it's not really any different from many others .. "ANYthing" is really over-egging the pudding hugely, you're, this game doesn't allow you to do ANYthing and thank God it doesn't.

Fruitdog · February 2015

Kragorn wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Am excited for when the PvP aspect is finally implemented.

That's when this game will go downhill when in comes to the non-Cyrodiil world experience. This game doesn't need open-world PVP and I seriously hope ZOS decide not to do it.

Don't worry, I'm sure ZOS will cater to you carebears.

Lied · February 2015

Kuro1n wrote: »

Yeah kinda losing hope on PVP parts, doesn't seems like ZOS is taking the PVP aspects of things serious.

Sucks. Hearing that they were removing VRs and adding open world PvP via the Justice System were the 2 reasons I resubbed. I still dare to hope

Ziggsrpg_ESO · February 2015

Lied wrote: »

Sucks. Hearing that they were removing VRs and adding open world PvP via the Justice System were the 2 reasons I resubbed. I still dare to hope

Everything will come in good time. Zos has been pretty consistent with releasing incremental changes that for the most part improve the game. Craglorn was a huge patch and now this is so don't expect it in the near future but they are working on these things. For example look at WoW at release and compare it to now... the changes are insane! Some would say they have made the game worse but I'm talking more about added features. Content and features are going to continue to be added but this is a huge mmo with a dedicated team its going to be a long term development cycle.

Slurg · February 2015

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Am excited for when the PvP aspect is finally implemented.

If it implemented, you mean. Because that exact word was used by Paul Sage during the last Reddit AMA in reference to the PvP portion of the Justice System

Anyways, I agree with OP. People somehow aren't seeing the JS as new content, when I would argue that it actually provides quite a bit.

It's one new skill line, one new location in each city, and the opportunity to steal, kill, and be killed in cities. It's definitely new content, but in the same sense as adding undaunted pledges or a new trial - it's small scale and not everyone will use it. I think some the people who don't agree that JS fits the criteria of new content see new content as being a new zone like Craglorn.

Anyway I caught the IF we get PVP justice comment also and am in no hurry to see it. I'd rather see it done right than in a hurry if they do it at all. Will be interesting enough to play around with the PVE part for a while I think.

daemonios · February 2015

Samadhi wrote: »

Am excited for when the PvP aspect is finally implemented.

Seriously doubt they will have PvP in PvE areas, unless people can easily opt out. Ultima Online tried that, and in the end they had to have separate "shards" for PKers and non-PKers. The amount of grief was simply driving more casual players away from the game. Imagine you're a new player and find yourself involved in a brawl against an end-game player. Not much fun, isn't it?

ThatNeonZebraAgain · February 2015

daemonios wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Am excited for when the PvP aspect is finally implemented.

Seriously doubt they will have PvP in PvE areas, unless people can easily opt out. Ultima Online tried that, and in the end they had to have separate "shards" for PKers and non-PKers. The amount of grief was simply driving more casual players away from the game. Imagine you're a new player and find yourself involved in a brawl against an end-game player. Not much fun, isn't it?

Except (1) you don't have to steal items in ESO if you don't want to, and (2) you can still steal things and get away with it and thus not accrue bounty and avoid possibility of being killed by a higher-level player. The PvP dimension would add much needed boost of dynamism to PvE areas, requiring people to actually think about they choices they make. This is the kind of stuff that keeps people playing long-term.

TheBull · February 2015

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Am excited for when the PvP aspect is finally implemented.

If it implemented, you mean. Because that exact word was used by Paul Sage during the last Reddit AMA in reference to the PvP portion of the Justice System

This is ZOS's most recent commit on the pvp portion.

=ZOS_MandiParker
mod
PvE Justice was such a massive and fundamental alteration to the current game that we wanted to give players a chance to adjust to it first. We wanted to see what everybody enjoys or avoids before adding in any new toys.
Mandi Parker9

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/148535/the-justice-system-seems-pretty-sound-i-cant-see-what-the-hold-up-would-be-for-the-pvp-portion#latest

TheBull · February 2015

daemonios wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Am excited for when the PvP aspect is finally implemented.

Seriously doubt they will have PvP in PvE areas, unless people can easily opt out. Ultima Online tried that, and in the end they had to have separate "shards" for PKers and non-PKers. The amount of grief was simply driving more casual players away from the game. Imagine you're a new player and find yourself involved in a brawl against an end-game player. Not much fun, isn't it?

inb4 UO... too late.

THAT WAS 20 YEARS AGO MAN

daemonios · February 2015

TheBull wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Am excited for when the PvP aspect is finally implemented.

Seriously doubt they will have PvP in PvE areas, unless people can easily opt out. Ultima Online tried that, and in the end they had to have separate "shards" for PKers and non-PKers. The amount of grief was simply driving more casual players away from the game. Imagine you're a new player and find yourself involved in a brawl against an end-game player. Not much fun, isn't it?

inb4 UO... too late.

THAT WAS 20 YEARS AGO MAN

Yes it was 20 years ago, but the findings still stand. Some players will try whatever it takes to grief others. In WoW someone found they could get infected with a disease, go into town and wipe players and NPCs, it was a disaster. Griefers are why in every single game you'll find PvP and PvE basically segregated.

Unless they can ensure that griefers can't spoil other player's fun, I'm betting PvP will stay in Cyrodiil.

DeLindsay · February 2015

Ziggsrpg_ESO wrote: »

DeLindsay wrote: »

Nice video, I have added it to my Legerdemain thread in the OP. There are a few things on your video that aren't 100% correct but it's a great tutorial none the less.

Thanks! If you would be willing to point out my inaccuracies I'll make corrections or at least leave an annotation mentioning it.

You bet, I'll do that today.

@1:31 you talk about "that right moment" when the chance is higher but go onto say that since it's a Guard that moment is short. That's actually true of all levels of NPC, Easy / Medium and Hard. They all have a breif ~1 second boost with a higher chance for success.

@3:50 yes there is a timer that starts from the moment you Pickpocket an NPC. Each time you do so again (up to 3 times) the chance of success reduces by 5 or 10%, depending on the NPC difficulty and then resets after a short time (they "restock" items to steal). How long that is I haven't been able to discern yet.

@4:09 the NPC that is sweeping is distracted but that doesn't effect how difficult it is to Pickpocket them. It's 100% based on their social status within society. The poor and working class are all Easy, the middle class and business owners are all Medium and the rich plus Guards are all Hard. This also effects the quality of goods one can Pickpocket, to some extent.

@7:14 "Copy Pasta" great comment!!

@8:26 Just something to add to this. Bounty decays at a rate of 22.5 gold every 3 minutes whether you're Online or Offline. This can be further reduced with the Passive Kickback. Kickback doesn't effect bounty decay though, just how much you have to pay a Guard or a Fence to wipe it. So the 71 Gold you gained for stealing can be reduced considerably over time and with higher Rank Legerdemain. Also, being Accosted by the Guards doesn't increase the Bounty, it's the same payout either way.

@19:17 NPC's sleeping or being occupied doesn't increase your chance to Pickpocket nor change them to "Easy", it only decreases the chance that the NPC will be "aware" which means you cannot initiate Pickpocket anyway.

Hope that helps.

Ziggsrpg_ESO · February 2015

DeLindsay wrote: »

@1:31 you talk about "that right moment" when the chance is higher but go onto say that since it's a Guard that moment is short. That's actually true of all levels of NPC, Easy / Medium and Hard. They all have a breif ~1 second boost with a higher chance for success.

@3:50 yes there is a timer that starts from the moment you Pickpocket an NPC. Each time you do so again (up to 3 times) the chance of success reduces by 5 or 10%, depending on the NPC difficulty and then resets after a short time (they "restock" items to steal). How long that is I haven't been able to discern yet.

@4:09 the NPC that is sweeping is distracted but that doesn't effect how difficult it is to Pickpocket them. It's 100% based on their social status within society. The poor and working class are all Easy, the middle class and business owners are all Medium and the rich plus Guards are all Hard. This also effects the quality of goods one can Pickpocket, to some extent.

@7:14 "Copy Pasta" great comment!!

@8:26 Just something to add to this. Bounty decays at a rate of 22.5 gold every 3 minutes whether you're Online or Offline. This can be further reduced with the Passive Kickback. Kickback doesn't effect bounty decay though, just how much you have to pay a Guard or a Fence to wipe it. So the 71 Gold you gained for stealing can be reduced considerably over time and with higher Rank Legerdemain. Also, being Accosted by the Guards doesn't increase the Bounty, it's the same payout either way.

@19:17 NPC's sleeping or being occupied doesn't increase your chance to Pickpocket nor change them to "Easy", it only decreases the chance that the NPC will be "aware" which means you cannot initiate Pickpocket anyway.

Hope that helps.

Thanks, those are all really good points! The point about the difficulties being the determination of % is the only one I feel needs to be added as an annotation. I really appreciate you taking the time to go through it thanks again!

I've added a annotation at the first reference 4:09 and also mentioned you and this thread in the description of the video

sagitter · February 2015

Pvp side in the justice system would be something cool and fresh in a mmo nowdays. A new skill line "gendarmerie" (flagged guards players) would be so great. Anyway like someone said, you are not forced to steal, and you can't be attacked if you are up standing, and not criminal flagged. The risk in it is really exciting.

WarrioroftheWind_ESO · February 2015

sagitter wrote: »

Pvp side in the justice system would be something cool and fresh in a mmo nowdays. A new skill line "gendarmerie" (flagged guards players) would be so great. Anyway like someone said, you are not forced to steal, and you can't be attacked if you are up standing, and not criminal flagged. The risk in it is really exciting.

I'm not entirely sure why people are so quick to shout 'griefing potential' I don't see any difference from when you played Skyrim and stole a mug from someone then sometime later 3 armored dudes would walk up to you intent on kicking your ass. Or heck even in Morrowind where if you went on a killing spree and got a death warrant (like that one time I mistakenly wiped out the canmona tong without taunting them beforehand...) and get chased by super powered guards for the rest of your life.

At least you have to actually be caught picking a log in ESO to get in trouble. Shoot in Oblivion I can't begin to count how many times I accidentally clicked on a door after/before hours and got chased down by a guard yelling "STOP RIGHT THERE CRIMINAL SCUM!!" srsly opening doors is a class A misdemeanor in Cyrodiil apparently...