Sorc dps, mages wrath and lightning splash

AssaultLemming · February 2015

I think we can all agree that the proposed change to lightning splash doesn't look even vaguely likely to fix the sorc dps problem.

Wouldn't it be simpler to just buff the damage of mages wrath to be equivalent/ greater to crushing shock?

If a flat damage increase is too easy and too OP in PvP maybe give it some sort of nice synergy with another skill.

Perhaps enemies effected by lightning splash and it's morphs take 200% to 300% more damage from other lightning abilities? That would make lightning splash a lot more fun to use while not making it OP in PvP because it can so easily be avoided, and it would work for both ranged and melee sorcs...

GilGalad · February 2015

I really like the idea of the increased dmg but your proposed values are way too high. The sorcs dmg in the execute phase is fine. An increase of 200%-300% would lead to more than 20k DPS, wich its too high. And don't forget the overload ultimate, that would hit way too hard.

I would propose an increase of shock dmg against enemies in the LF area of 20-30%. That would be nice but not OP. The ultimate might be excluded.

But you see the basic problem of the sorcs: we Need an ability, we can spam like crushing shock to proc CF. An increase of the mages wrath base damage and a degrease of the extra dmg under 20% could do it.

Seraphyel · February 2015

No, no, no, no, no.

I hate spamming Mages Wrath when the mob is <20% and now you want to make it our "spam" ability? No, thank you.

There must be other ways of doing it.

Digiman · February 2015

Seraphyel wrote: »

No, no, no, no, no.

I hate spamming Mages Wrath when the mob is <20% and now you want to make it our "spam" ability? No, thank you.

There must be other ways of doing it.

Actually love doing that, with endless wrath I tend to hold off till I know the target will die to get the most of the magicka I get. Wish the radius was more then 4m though.

Still I think the best concept of adjusting Sorcerer DPS is through light armor giving more spell penetration and spell power for each piece worn.

MADshadowman · February 2015

Tweaking skills will not solve our problem. Our problem is that 2 basic skills are completely missing.

1 instant cast/instant damage skill with moderate damage. This would allow us to drop the destro staff. It's ridiculous that we don't have what all the other classes have.

1 self heal. And no, crit surge is not a self heal. It's a damage boost with a healing side effect, but you can't rely on that. And if you are wounded, the last thing you wanna do is to charge into a zerg for some healing. Just a medium self heal would go a long way. This would allow us to drop the resto staff as well.

These 2 skills would open up new build options and make the sorc more versatile and fun to play.

Dracane · February 2015

I like it. I suggested in another thread, that mage's fury would be a great choice, to become our spamable class spell. Increase the cost, make it blockable and give it the same damage as force shock. I'm not seeing any problems here.

Seraphyel · February 2015

Digiman wrote: »

Actually love doing that, with endless wrath I tend to hold off till I know the target will die to get the most of the magicka I get. Wish the radius was more then 4m though.

And I hate it. On bosses you are still spamming that skill below 20%, I don't want to do that all the time.

Digiman · February 2015

Seraphyel wrote: »

Digiman wrote: »

Actually love doing that, with endless wrath I tend to hold off till I know the target will die to get the most of the magicka I get. Wish the radius was more then 4m though.

And I hate it. On bosses you are still spamming that skill below 20%, I don't want to do that all the time.

Considering its our only instant that would do considerable damage at that stage you can see why this exposes a problem for sorcerers in general.

Aimelin · February 2015

Dracane wrote: »

I like it. I suggested in another thread, that mage's fury would be a great choice, to become our spamable class spell. Increase the cost, make it blockable and give it the same damage as force shock. I'm not seeing any problems here.

so you want to give up our finisher and still keep the most useless skill ever lightning splash .... i don't agree, sry

Dracane · February 2015

Aimelin wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I like it. I suggested in another thread, that mage's fury would be a great choice, to become our spamable class spell. Increase the cost, make it blockable and give it the same damage as force shock. I'm not seeing any problems here.

so you want to give up our finisher and still keep the most useless skill ever lightning splash .... i don't agree, sry

I actually wanted it to keep the finisher proc

But come one.... 20% ? This is the lowest finisher in the game. I'm using the finisher against some (yeah only some) Bosses and everywhere else, it's just horrible. It's damage-cost is terrible. It might look low, but so is the damage.

I think, the 2 morphs of mage's fury are among the worst and most useless morphs in the entire game.

And here's why: Mage's Wrath- most people think, it increase the explosion damage. Would be nice, but it does not. It only increase the shock wave, that damages enemies in a 4 meter radius around the target. Tell me, where this has an impact ? I can only see the 3 flesh atronachs in spindleclutch and the 3 dinos in Dark shades caverns (and they are additional bosses)

And endless fury: As I've said earlier, there is no need to use mage's fury against trash mobs, they would die withing the next 1 or 2 normal hits anyway and the delay on using fury and fury hiting is annoying. You're using fury against bosses and after the boss is dead, the fight is over and you don't need the Magicka gain anymore ^^

I think, they can replace these 2 with more meaningfull morphs.

Gyudan · February 2015

Dracane wrote: »

And endless fury: As I've said earlier, there is no need to use mage's fury against trash mobs, they would die withing the next 1 or 2 normal hits anyway and the delay on using fury and fury hiting is annoying. You're using fury against bosses and after the boss is dead, the fight is over and you don't need the Magicka gain anymore ^^

I think, they can replace these 2 with more meaningfull morphs.

Endless Fury is quite nice when leveling, but it sucks that the magicka recovered from a kill is much lower than what a kill with destro staff ability or normal attack can bring.

The only ability that needs to change is Surge. Buff it, nerf entropy/momentum and everything will be fine.

Dracane · February 2015

Gyudan wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

And endless fury: As I've said earlier, there is no need to use mage's fury against trash mobs, they would die withing the next 1 or 2 normal hits anyway and the delay on using fury and fury hiting is annoying. You're using fury against bosses and after the boss is dead, the fight is over and you don't need the Magicka gain anymore ^^

I think, they can replace these 2 with more meaningfull morphs.

Endless Fury is quite nice when leveling, but it sucks that the magicka recovered from a kill is much lower than what a kill with destro staff ability or normal attack can bring.

The only ability that needs to change is Surge. Buff it, nerf entropy/momentum and everything will be fine.

Nobody cares for leveling

I only hate, that mage's fury morphs are so damn situational.

I also consider Surge as the biggest problem. There is no reason, anyone would be using it instead of Entropy. The laughable heal is not the problem for myself, the damage is. It's a shame, a minor non-class ability (Entropy) is way better than a class ability, that used to be one of the best Sorc abilities.

Jar_Ek · February 2015

@Dracane
Endless Fury
Reduces the cost of recasting the spell by 10% per subsequent cast to a maximum reduction of 50%. A subsequent recast is considered to be a recast within 2 seconds of the last cast.

Obviously the specific %ages would need to be adjusted but something like this instead?

Dracane · February 2015

Jar_Ek wrote: »

@Dracane
Endless Fury
Reduces the cost of recasting the spell by 10% per subsequent cast to a maximum reduction of 50%. A subsequent recast is considered to be a recast within 2 seconds of the last cast.

Obviously the specific %ages would need to be adjusted but something like this instead?

Is this a suggestion or is this, what endless fury does ?

I myself don't care a lot for the cost of a spell. I care for the damage. For endless fury, this might be a reasonable solution. But it has a good cost-damage, when used below 20% health anyway. However, interesting idea.

What would you do with mage's wrath, to give the morph a meaning ?

Fayaburn · February 2015

Dracane wrote: »

Jar_Ek wrote: »

@Dracane
Endless Fury
Reduces the cost of recasting the spell by 10% per subsequent cast to a maximum reduction of 50%. A subsequent recast is considered to be a recast within 2 seconds of the last cast.

Obviously the specific %ages would need to be adjusted but something like this instead?

Is this a suggestion or is this, what endless fury does ?

I myself don't care a lot for the cost of a spell. I care for the damage. For endless fury, this might be a reasonable solution. But it has a good cost-damage, when used below 20% health anyway. However, interesting idea.

What would you do with mage's wrath, to give the morph a meaning ?

Mage's Wrath
Damage augments by 6% per subsequent cast to a maximum of 30%. A subsequent recast is considered to be a recast within 2 seconds of the last cast.

There you go. You can choose to get the cost decreasing, or the damage increasing.

MADshadowman · February 2015

endless fury is one of the best if not the best finisher in game. From a pvp standpoint. the initial hit + the explosion are around 800-900 damage, and this is ranged, combine this with curse and you hit for 1500 damage.

The magicka you get back is pretty much the same as from destro staff kills + the cost is lower. I use either crushing shock or endless fury to kill somebody, so i get magicka back anyway.

Jar_Ek · February 2015

@‌ Fayaburn
Pretty much what I was thinking, although 6% / 30% damage maybe a bit high compared to a 10% / 50% reduction. 3% / 15% damage maybe better.

Fayaburn · February 2015

Jar_Ek wrote: »

@‌ Fayaburn
Pretty much what I was thinking, although 6% / 30% damage maybe a bit high compared to a 10% / 50% reduction. 3% / 15% damage maybe better.

I wouldn't go for anything less than 5%/25%.

manny254 · February 2015

Sorc has the greatest ranged magic dps already. Stop trying to fix sorc and look at the real problem. Ranged dps sucks in this update.

Tankqull · February 2015

Dracane wrote: »

Jar_Ek wrote: »

@Dracane
Endless Fury
Reduces the cost of recasting the spell by 10% per subsequent cast to a maximum reduction of 50%. A subsequent recast is considered to be a recast within 2 seconds of the last cast.

Obviously the specific %ages would need to be adjusted but something like this instead?

Is this a suggestion or is this, what endless fury does ?

I myself don't care a lot for the cost of a spell. I care for the damage. For endless fury, this might be a reasonable solution. But it has a good cost-damage, when used below 20% health anyway. However, interesting idea.

What would you do with mage's wrath, to give the morph a meaning ?

lift its (non finisher proc) dmg to ~400 dmg(live sth like 3.5-4.5k on PTS) but replace desintigration passive with the upcoming X% per slotted ability.

Aimelin · February 2015

Dracane wrote: »

Aimelin wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I like it. I suggested in another thread, that mage's fury would be a great choice, to become our spamable class spell. Increase the cost, make it blockable and give it the same damage as force shock. I'm not seeing any problems here.

so you want to give up our finisher and still keep the most useless skill ever lightning splash .... i don't agree, sry

I actually wanted it to keep the finisher proc But come one.... 20% ? This is the lowest finisher in the game. I'm using the finisher against some (yeah only some) Bosses and everywhere else, it's just horrible. It's damage-cost is terrible. It might look low, but so is the damage.

I think, the 2 morphs of mage's fury are among the worst and most useless morphs in the entire game.

And here's why: Mage's Wrath- most people think, it increase the explosion damage. Would be nice, but it does not. It only increase the shock wave, that damages enemies in a 4 meter radius around the target. Tell me, where this has an impact ? I can only see the 3 flesh atronachs in spindleclutch and the 3 dinos in Dark shades caverns (and they are additional bosses)

And endless fury: As I've said earlier, there is no need to use mage's fury against trash mobs, they would die withing the next 1 or 2 normal hits anyway and the delay on using fury and fury hiting is annoying. You're using fury against bosses and after the boss is dead, the fight is over and you don't need the Magicka gain anymore ^^

I think, they can replace these 2 with more meaningfull morphs.

Mkay while keeping the finisher part in the skill, getting its dmg increased to be our spammable dps skill is never going to happen tho, that'd be quite op, even tho templars have a 50% finisher lol

GreyRanger · February 2015

MADshadowman wrote: »

Tweaking skills will not solve our problem. Our problem is that 2 basic skills are completely missing.

1 instant cast/instant damage skill with moderate damage. This would allow us to drop the destro staff. It's ridiculous that we don't have what all the other classes have.

1 self heal. And no, crit surge is not a self heal. It's a damage boost with a healing side effect, but you can't rely on that. And if you are wounded, the last thing you wanna do is to charge into a zerg for some healing. Just a medium self heal would go a long way. This would allow us to drop the resto staff as well.

These 2 skills would open up new build options and make the sorc more versatile and fun to play.

I agree completely.

Merlin13KAGL · February 2015

Tankqull wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Jar_Ek wrote: »

@Dracane
Endless Fury
Reduces the cost of recasting the spell by 10% per subsequent cast to a maximum reduction of 50%. A subsequent recast is considered to be a recast within 2 seconds of the last cast.

Obviously the specific %ages would need to be adjusted but something like this instead?

Is this a suggestion or is this, what endless fury does ?

I myself don't care a lot for the cost of a spell. I care for the damage. For endless fury, this might be a reasonable solution. But it has a good cost-damage, when used below 20% health anyway. However, interesting idea.

What would you do with mage's wrath, to give the morph a meaning ?

lift its (non finisher proc) dmg to ~400 dmg(live sth like 3.5-4.5k on PTS) but replace desintigration passive with the upcoming X% per slotted ability.

@tankqull, how about progressive damage. Instead of flat rate bonus damage under a certain % health (5% lower than NB's finisher's require, btw), make it hit harder the lower the health is. This could happen up to a cap making it hurt much more as the target's health diminished.

EDIT: Adding a Weakness to passive effect that stacked in small doses would apply this perfectly.

Dracane · February 2015

The problem with lightning splash is simple:

There is no need to take it. Because its damage is lower than daedric curse damage. Over 3.5 seconds, daedric curse can deal around 6900 damage, lightning splash almost 5900. (both is way lower of course, because you have to consider spell resistance)

In addition to that, daedric curse is 100% reliable, while lightning splash requires your enemy to stand still. Lightning splash is also more expensive (not a problem for myself though). In a few boss fights, lightning splash can work. But daedric curse works in every boss fight.

We have to consider, that lightning splash can crit more often and it definately will on a few ticks. Daedric curse can crit as well of course.
So I don't know, why I would be taking an experimental,unreliable spell, if I can have a better one ?

AssaultLemming · February 2015

Gil.Galad wrote: »

I really like the idea of the increased dmg but your proposed values are way too high. The sorcs dmg in the execute phase is fine. An increase of 200%-300% would lead to more than 20k DPS, wich its too high. And don't forget the overload ultimate, that would hit way too hard.

I would propose an increase of shock dmg against enemies in the LF area of 20-30%. That would be nice but not OP. The ultimate might be excluded.

But you see the basic problem of the sorcs: we Need an ability, we can spam like crushing shock to proc CF. An increase of the mages wrath base damage and a degrease of the extra dmg under 20% could do it.

Agreed, I just plucked those numbers from thin air. Somewhere from 25 to 50 % is probably more reasonable.