Is 1h&Shield becoming pointless ?

cesmode · November 2014

New to the game, still leveling...

I was hoping to make my templar go 1h+s but be DPS. Obviously not glass cannon DPS, but offensive in nature. Looking at the skills of 1h+s, it seems this might not be possible.

Any templars out there run 1h+s and spec for DPS? Again, I don't need it to be meta-uber or glass cannon, but somewhere in the middle to decent DPS range.

Attorneyatlawl · November 2014

xaraan wrote: »

I don't think it is becoming useless at all. But, this game has always had a problem with powers not working on powerful mobs - which is normally when you would want to use them. But they all work great on weak mobs you don't need them for.

Thankfully there are basically no circumstances you really need them for "powerful mobs" when soloing, usually just PVP and Trials/etc.

. That said, does Deep Slash in 1h/shield not work in a similar fashion to these two notes as of 1.5.2? I haven't tried it myself yet:

"One-Hand and Shield
•Reverberating Bash (Power Bash morph): This ability now reduces healing taken by 40% for 8 seconds; this effect applies even if your target is stun immune.

Two-Handed
•Dizzying Swing (Uppercut morph): •Reduced the debuff for this ability to 15% from 20%.
•This ability now has an increased duration, and applies to stun-immune monsters.
"

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO · November 2014

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Is anyone reading my original post or just the heading ?

1. I expect to do half the dps of a dual wield..not an issue.
But I need bash/charge to take down the total damage over time so in the end we get equal damage. The dual wield with massive hits...the shield user by limiting the number of those serious hits with stun and getting half damage hits in.

2. The world bosses and beast are slowly and surely all having their vulnerability to stun removed. If I cant subdue the massive damage some of these bosses do I am stuffed.

eg. Trolls and ogres I could take down without a problem. Now its a 60-40 in their favour just for survival.

All I am asking for if I have a bash/charge....it actually does something stun as the tooltip says and doesn't get ignored or I might as well not have bash and charge.

Now maybe magicka builds can soak up extra damage with shield stacking. I am a stamina build and have no such luxury. My block/shield isn't really that effective on its own.

PvP also exists, sword board is powerful and commonly used. Now with reverb bash doing a health debuff its a big +
If your not tanking pve and not liking it, that doesn't mean its no good, just use something else, you can't auto win every fight with cc.

Woolenthreads · November 2014

Rune_Relic wrote: »

141107-000243

More and more monsters are being made stun immune.

This affects other perks too. Silver Bolts has become something I can only use for any Daedra/Undead <= character size because all the others are now apparently immune because they're "too powerful". This means, to me, that the monsters it was most useful against are now immune

.

Oddly the Trolls now seem far more likely to be stunned when you use fire and burning effects against them.

Head.hunter · November 2014

A lot of people use 1h/shield in pvp just not the actual skills. People opt for class skill lines instead so they dish out damage while benefiting from the 1h/shield survivability. Those abilities are made for maiming enemies, not killing them.

Francescolg · November 2014

cesmode wrote: »

I was hoping to make my templar go 1h+s but be DPS. Obviously not glass cannon DPS, but offensive in nature. Looking at the skills of 1h+s, it seems this might not be possible.

Any templars out there run 1h+s and spec for DPS? Again, I don't need it to be meta-uber or glass cannon, but somewhere in the middle to decent DPS range.

Our Breath of Life heals are becoming pointsless some times due to a) everybody running around in heal-staff due to ultimate regen/mana reggen and b) everybody using heal-debuffs. Beside that, many classes have very good damage shields/damage mitigation tecniques.. the result is that shield-spamming strategies become more valuable than a 800x3-heal. I think many templars are now switching to more stamina based skills, many have always played a stamina based Templar.

Here how your bar (1h/shield) could look like:

1. Immovable
2. Blazing Shield
3. One of 2 gap closers (shield assault/invasion/etc..)
4. Radiant Aura
5. Absorb Magic
6/Ultimate: Rememberance or Vamp or Nova or...

This is a high sustainability, pure pvp-spec that gives you DPS if you get attacked and you never go out of stamina - if played right (not blocking all the time, etc.). Put Bow/Destro/Heal/etc. on your second bar. Second bar for active DPS or heal HF

Rune_Relic · November 2014

Woolenthreads wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

141107-000243

More and more monsters are being made stun immune.

This affects other perks too. Silver Bolts has become something I can only use for any Daedra/Undead <= character size because all the others are now apparently immune because they're "too powerful". This means, to me, that the monsters it was most useful against are now immune .

Oddly the Trolls now seem far more likely to be stunned when you use fire and burning effects against them.

When you fight the ogres in openworld, using poison with snipe stuns them. Yet the ogre bosses are stun immune. Makes sense.

This is exactly the kind of thing I am taking about. Thanks.

Rune_Relic · November 2014

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Is anyone reading my original post or just the heading ?

1. I expect to do half the dps of a dual wield..not an issue.
But I need bash/charge to take down the total damage over time so in the end we get equal damage. The dual wield with massive hits...the shield user by limiting the number of those serious hits with stun and getting half damage hits in.

2. The world bosses and beast are slowly and surely all having their vulnerability to stun removed. If I cant subdue the massive damage some of these bosses do I am stuffed.

eg. Trolls and ogres I could take down without a problem. Now its a 60-40 in their favour just for survival.

All I am asking for if I have a bash/charge....it actually does something stun as the tooltip says and doesn't get ignored or I might as well not have bash and charge.

Now maybe magicka builds can soak up extra damage with shield stacking. I am a stamina build and have no such luxury. My block/shield isn't really that effective on its own.

PvP also exists, sword board is powerful and commonly used. Now with reverb bash doing a health debuff its a big +
If your not tanking pve and not liking it, that doesn't mean its no good, just use something else, you can't auto win every fight with cc.

I never said anything about an autowin. I specifically said balanced and stalemate. PVP.
The main problem is PVE bosses...that suddenly develop a whole host of immunities there standard counterparts dont have and that list is getting bigger.

Rune_Relic · November 2014

Thanks for the post everyone. I enjoyed reading all your thoughts. Seriously.

For those that asked, I am classless. As it was always stated classes were a starting point and would not be required when questioned in beta. So I avoid them on principle to see if the person that made the comment was full of crap or not. Hence I am pure stamina + weapon/armour/fighters guild

Someone raised the point that the game would be lame if everything could be stun locked. I agree with your comment 100%...even being shield biased. This isnt the intent. If I could stun you for 1s in 4 seconds or 2s in each 4 second period you would only be able to do 75% dps or 50% dps (like cc immunity after break free). This is a simple way of balancing a shield type vs a dps type that is shield specific. It prevent the dps being permanently stun locked. It allows the shield to bring down the dps's total damage over time to the shield users damage levels. It allows passives to buff/nerf the stun ratio from both an opponent and user view point.

I dont mind having a stun duration limit vs time. The on/off switch ZOS is now using is the problem. Its like have armour rating on/off rather than variable. Even 1s stun with 6s cool down vs bosses would be something. At least then the shield charge and bash works and has a use. I figure bashing a giant on the knee wont kill him or knock him down....but might at least distract him for a bit lol. If I bash a mudcrab I expect it to be unconscious for a fair while.

demonlkojipub19_ESO · November 2014

imo equipping a 1h/sh should lower all damage dealt by 15%, while increasing threat generated by 20%

Still_Mind · November 2014

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

imo equipping a 1h/sh should lower all damage dealt by 15%, while increasing threat generated by 20%

No. Just no

Attorneyatlawl · November 2014

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

imo equipping a 1h/sh should lower all damage dealt by 15%, while increasing threat generated by 20%

Bwahahahaha.

AlexDougherty · November 2014

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

imo equipping a 1h/sh should lower all damage dealt by 15%, while increasing threat generated by 20%

A bit of overkill there, 15% is too high, 10% is pushing it to be honest, probably the max they would cosider is between 5% and 8%.

rustedrabbit · November 2014

Sword and board is at the tippy top of PvP. They need to add a damage reduction modifier while it is equipped to promote build diversity in PvP. IE if you have the 1h+Shield equipped you do 25% less damage. I don't know about the rest of everyone else but I feel weird being able to ambush with a shield equipped for roughly the same amount of damage as with my daggers equipped.

Note: I myself use the setup in PvP along with a resto staff. At this time the rewards don't outweigh the risks with other weapons. Please don't start the "well there's a counter for it" bit... Yeah you can take people down but it's not nearly as efficient. If you believe that the weapon skill lines are balanced you are lying to yourself.

alexj4596b14_ESO · November 2014

rustedrabbit wrote: »

Sword and board is at the tippy top of PvP. They need to add a damage reduction modifier while it is equipped to promote build diversity in PvP. IE if you have the 1h+Shield equipped you do 25% less damage. I don't know about the rest of everyone else but I feel weird being able to ambush with a shield equipped for roughly the same amount of damage as with my daggers equipped.

Note: I myself use the setup in PvP along with a resto staff. At this time the rewards don't outweigh the risks with other weapons. Please don't start the "well there's a counter for it" bit... Yeah you can take people down but it's not nearly as efficient. If you believe that the weapon skill lines are balanced you are lying to yourself.

wait onehand dose damage in pvp but not pve? huh?

eserras7b16_ESO · November 2014

You're forgeting one thing: PvP.

1H + Shield has really usefull habilities for PvE tanking. You Weaken bosses so party members deal more damage. You reduce the dmg the boss does. You get more blocking and absorb/reflect projectiles. Then u've got 2 Useless stuns? Well charge is used to interrupt not to deal damage. Not useless at all. And the last skill might be used in PvP as the 4rth one.

Pyatra · November 2014

PVP you can go all non-weapon skills with 1H+Shield. An extra large enchantment slot, trait, and super survivability. It's a good option if you have the Class skills to fill that bar out.

rustedrabbit · November 2014

alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »

rustedrabbit wrote: »

Sword and board is at the tippy top of PvP. They need to add a damage reduction modifier while it is equipped to promote build diversity in PvP. IE if you have the 1h+Shield equipped you do 25% less damage. I don't know about the rest of everyone else but I feel weird being able to ambush with a shield equipped for roughly the same amount of damage as with my daggers equipped.

Note: I myself use the setup in PvP along with a resto staff. At this time the rewards don't outweigh the risks with other weapons. Please don't start the "well there's a counter for it" bit... Yeah you can take people down but it's not nearly as efficient. If you believe that the weapon skill lines are balanced you are lying to yourself.

wait onehand dose damage in pvp but not pve? huh?

Engrish?

Cody · November 2014

rustedrabbit wrote: »

Sword and board is at the tippy top of PvP. They need to add a damage reduction modifier while it is equipped to promote build diversity in PvP. IE if you have the 1h+Shield equipped you do 25% less damage. I don't know about the rest of everyone else but I feel weird being able to ambush with a shield equipped for roughly the same amount of damage as with my daggers equipped.

Note: I myself use the setup in PvP along with a resto staff. At this time the rewards don't outweigh the risks with other weapons. Please don't start the "well there's a counter for it" bit... Yeah you can take people down but it's not nearly as efficient. If you believe that the weapon skill lines are balanced you are lying to yourself.

its just a tad bit ridiculous that someone with a shield can put out the same DPS as someone with an offensive weapon.

boggie · November 2014

Rune_Relic wrote: »

For those that asked, I am classless. As it was always stated classes were a starting point and would not be required when questioned in beta. So I avoid them on principle to see if the person that made the comment was full of crap or not. Hence I am pure stamina + weapon/armour/fighters guild

I feel the need to point something out here- there's a difference between "it is possible to play without using any class skills" and "it is possible to make a viable build with whatever arbitrary self-imposed restrictions I feel like using". No skill line in this game, weapon, class, or otherwise, is designed to be optimal in every role in every situation. Cut yourself off from enough of the skills available to you, and yes, you will start to find holes in your build. As well you should.

Do I believe that it's possible for a skilled enough player to clear endgame content with a build that uses no class skills? Probably. Should they be able to do so as easily or effectively as someone who picks and chooses the best options out of the plethora available to them? God no. The day that happens, the skill lines would have to be so homogenized that the only real difference between the different weapons would be appearance and animation.

guybrushtb16_ESO · November 2014

boggie wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

For those that asked, I am classless. As it was always stated classes were a starting point and would not be required when questioned in beta. So I avoid them on principle to see if the person that made the comment was full of crap or not. Hence I am pure stamina + weapon/armour/fighters guild

I feel the need to point something out here- there's a difference between "it is possible to play without using any class skills" and "it is possible to make a viable build with whatever arbitrary self-imposed restrictions I feel like using". No skill line in this game, weapon, class, or otherwise, is designed to be optimal in every role in every situation. Cut yourself off from enough of the skills available to you, and yes, you will start to find holes in your build. As well you should.

Do I believe that it's possible for a skilled enough player to clear endgame content with a build that uses no class skills? Probably. Should they be able to do so as easily or effectively as someone who picks and chooses the best options out of the plethora available to them? God no. The day that happens, the skill lines would have to be so homogenized that the only real difference between the different weapons would be appearance and animation.

Spot on. If we assume that "I want be effective using no class skills" is a valid way of playing the game, there is no justification anymore to not allow "I want to be effective using *only* class skills" as well, or even more arbitrary things like "I want to be effective using *only* werewolf/vampire/guild/whatever skills". The only way this could actually happen is if all possible restrictions were self contained packages with very little interaction because that would favor having to cherry pick the best skills again.

This very clearly isn't how this game was designed, you are actually encouraged to "cover your bases" utilizing different sources of abilities and passives, so of course arbitrary self imposed restrictions will hurt your performance.

boggie · November 2014

One other thing worth mentioning- having to weapon swap depending on situation does not mean that a particular weapon line is "broken". Speaking as a player who is using both class and weapon skills in his build, on tough fights, yes, I'm changing weapons constantly. This doesn't mean that my setup on either bar is underpowered or somehow lacking. It means that I recognize that each bar has its strengths and weaknesses, each loadout is meant to do a different thing well, and that I need to adapt my playstyle as the situation dictates. And guess what? Even when I'm using both bars, and cherrypicking my skills from the full spectrum of what is available to me, there are still some fights that I'm going to have a harder time with than others. There are still roles that my character isn't going to be able to perform. Remove the need to change up your tactics on the fly, and we are back to the same mindless "1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3" skill rotation that makes combat in many other mmo's so soul crushingly boring.

AlexDougherty · November 2014

boggie wrote: »

One other thing worth mentioning- having to weapon swap depending on situation does not mean that a particular weapon line is "broken". Speaking as a player who is using both class and weapon skills in his build, on tough fights, yes, I'm changing weapons constantly. This doesn't mean that my setup on either bar is underpowered or somehow lacking. It means that I recognize that each bar has its strengths and weaknesses, each loadout is meant to do a different thing well, and that I need to adapt my playstyle as the situation dictates. And guess what? Even when I'm using both bars, and cherrypicking my skills from the full spectrum of what is available to me, there are still some fights that I'm going to have a harder time with than others. There are still roles that my character isn't going to be able to perform. Remove the need to change up your tactics on the fly, and we are back to the same mindless "1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3" skill rotation that makes combat in many other mmo's so soul crushingly boring.

Yeah, I'm currently learning dual weild on m DK and it's harder to play than sword and shield, but worth it. So I agree that switching up a gear in a fight is vital to learn.

Rune_Relic · November 2014

So what we are saying is 1h+s should not have more weapon resist then dual wield ?
What we are saying is dual wield should not put out more dps then 1h+s ?

No thats preposterous. But they still have to balance regardless other wise one play style becomes the cookie cutter build and the other build gets forgotten. Not in the PVE sense as monsters can be biased to match any build or playstyle. BUT... PVP is one on one.

Switching gear requires that you have all the passives and skills for that weapon to be effective. I dont have the privy of enough skill points to level every single weapon. So which weapon I dont have should I swap to ? This also relies on the premise the weapon you swap to will be a counter to another (impying more balanced than the one you use). Yet if both weapons ended in the same time until death they are naturally balanced and no cookie cutter build ever appears. You can play as you like...without being compromised.

eg Dual may do 150% damage ~ 1h+s may do 100% damage
Bash may stun for 17% of combat time and 17% more amour...so Dual only managed 66% of 150% damage or 100% damage overall.
Two completely different playstyles remain unique...yet balanced.
They both die at the same time or walk away with the same health and stamina.
Which weapon option does everyone use ?
Both as both are EQUALLY VIABLE ! ie...balanced

Class skills require ..magicka + spell damage (purely level based)
Weapon skills require ...stamina + weapon damage (purely level based)
If you are doing weapon + class skill you have compromised damage through reduced stamina and magicka stats.

Class users use stick and skirt because they all rely on magicka like Mages/undaunted/vampire/world lines.
Only people who dont go this route is werewolf/fighter/weapon classless groups whose focus on stamina and medium instead.
Anything other than these two is a waste of resources.

timborggrenlarsenb16_ESO · November 2014

Rune_Relic wrote: »

141107-000243

Does anyone else feel the shield skill line is becoming useless?
More and more monsters are being made stun immune.
I rely on stun (bash/charge) to lower monster/enemy dps to the same level as my puny 1 hands weapon damage.

What the hell is the point of me investing in the shield skill line if I cant survive or compete using it ?

It has been a joke seen day one if you ask me, but i quess you dont

Kypho · November 2014

In pvp EVERY class is awesome with 1h+sh even sorcerers. Pointless? if they nerf it with 50% its still not pointless, it would be on pair with others.

1st bar: 75% ppl using 1h+sh, others destro staff, restro, DW.
2nd bar: 75% restro, others 2h, destro, dw.

1h+sh and restrostaff and pijama FTW.

deepseamk20b14_ESO · November 2014

I use it in PvP all the time. Not pointless at all.

cosmoplayer · November 2014

bashing i can survive with a very low healt. the 1h and shield passive are very powerfull, may be the strongest (mobility...)
i'm a mage, and in pve my first bar is 1h and shield, the second, i use it just for support.
i've also levelled dual wield to maximum (with all passives), but i don't use much anymore (i like only rendering slashes).
so i think 1h and shield is either strong in defence and in attack too: i'm using always deep slash in pve, and sometimes power bash too.
very powerfull (i can almost bash bosses strike), so i can't see any 1h alternative at the moment.