Is 1h&Shield becoming pointless ?

Rune_Relic

141107-000243

Does anyone else feel the shield skill line is becoming useless?
More and more monsters are being made stun immune.
I rely on stun (bash/charge) to lower monster/enemy dps to the same level as my puny 1 hands weapon damage.

What the hell is the point of me investing in the shield skill line if I cant survive or compete using it ?

guybrushtb16_ESO

1h+shield has two niches, one is tanking the other is blockcasting class skills in pvp. It's very strong in both roles, I don't see why it should have awesome dps as well.

Weberda

1h+shield also has set bonus implications. It gives you a total of 12 pieces instead of 11 to use when configuring armor/jewelry setups. Usually for me this means getting the most from 3 different sets (both crafted and dropped).

bertenburnyb16_ESO

the passives of 1H&S are really nice tanking, and I find the skills good to, so ofc the damage output of it is gonna be less, dont see a problem here

Thechemicals

Wpn swap 2h.

Rune_Relic

Is anyone reading my original post or just the heading ?

1. I expect to do half the dps of a dual wield..not an issue.
But I need bash/charge to take down the total damage over time so in the end we get equal damage. The dual wield with massive hits...the shield user by limiting the number of those serious hits with stun and getting half damage hits in.

2. The world bosses and beast are slowly and surely all having their vulnerability to stun removed. If I cant subdue the massive damage some of these bosses do I am stuffed.

eg. Trolls and ogres I could take down without a problem. Now its a 60-40 in their favour just for survival.

All I am asking for if I have a bash/charge....it actually does something stun as the tooltip says and doesn't get ignored or I might as well not have bash and charge.

Now maybe magicka builds can soak up extra damage with shield stacking. I am a stamina build and have no such luxury. My block/shield isn't really that effective on its own.

Rune_Relic

Thechemicals wrote: »

Wpn swap 2h.

I am bow + 1h&s

NotSo

I've always used Degeneration, Deep Slash, and Puncture. As a sorcerer I also get Critical Surge for added self heals. I stack Ring of Preservation, Thundering Presence, Immovable Brute, and Brawler from my Two-Handed secondary skill bar.
All stats in stamina.
Most three man mobs are a joke. Most bosses can be dribbled off the ground with Dizzying Swing so they don't get a chance to attack anyways.

I only used Sword and Shield to level it to 50, now I'm leveling Duel Wielding; same concept just using Blood Craze and Heated Blades instead of Deep Slash and Puncture.

Thechemicals

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Thechemicals wrote: »

Wpn swap 2h.

I am bow + 1h&s

So snipe and aoe. Their are 2 weapon swaps. If you feel you need a defensive one and a range one then thats the style of play you picked.

Me i go all out with 2h and bow. Shields are awesome but i like delivering head trauma.

Rune_Relic

Thechemicals wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Thechemicals wrote: »

Wpn swap 2h.

I am bow + 1h&s

So snipe and aoe. Their are 2 weapon swaps. If you feel you need a defensive one and a range one then thats the style of play you picked.

Me i go all out with 2h and bow. Shields are awesome but i like delivering head trauma.

I do snipe. How is AoE going to being donw 1 single DPS monster ?
But when monsters cant be stunned, snared, crippled..but can stun, snare and cripple you ..as well as 10x the health and do 10x the damage/hit..you end up dead.
Option 1 evade - cant do as your crippled/stunned/snared and break free saps all the stamina as does sprinting out of hit range which is crippled in combat anyway.
Option 2 stun/cripple/snare beast/boss - cant as beast/boss is immune.
Option 3 block damage - doesn't stop massive dps hits and eats stamina until nones left.

You cant outrun from the damage.
You can block the damage
You cant slow down or control the damage.
You die or do more DPS then they do.

NotSo

Cripples, stuns, and snares shouldn't stop you from dodge rolling out of aoe zones.
You can technically slow down and control damage with attacks that reduce targets damage dealt and skills that increase your armor/spell resist. And you can mend that damage with healing.

Some bow skills that might help:
Venom Arrow - sets casters off balance (it's like a ranged bash attack, great in pvp)
Magnum Shot - pushes you away from enemy and shoves them backwords, another way to add some hp regen time.
Lethal Arrow - reduces targets healing received by 40% (now has no minimum range) I wouldn't actually recommend using this unless a boss is a healer and you're taking out ads

Rune_Relic

ian92415b14_ESO wrote: »

I've always used Degeneration, Deep Slash, and Puncture. As a sorcerer I also get Critical Surge for added self heals. I stack Ring of Preservation, Thundering Presence, Immovable Brute, and Brawler from my Two-Handed secondary skill bar.
All stats in stamina.
Most three man mobs are a joke. Most bosses can be dribbled off the ground with Dizzying Swing so they don't get a chance to attack anyways.

I only used Sword and Shield to level it to 50, now I'm leveling Duel Wielding; same concept just using Blood Craze and Heated Blades instead of Deep Slash and Puncture.

Deep slash and puncture.
Yes I use similar on the bar, but you are never going to out dps a Vet4 troll for instance just using that. I cant anyway lol.
I have ring of preservation and blood altar for taking down mobs and bombard.
Mobs are not an issue for me nor any public dungeons.
Hell I often do anchors alone as tghere is no one around when I play at 1am.
I struggle with one on one DPS monsters.
I expect a melee 1h and shield to be able to fight melee and not have to run away

Rune_Relic

ian92415b14_ESO wrote: »

Cripples, stuns, and snares shouldn't stop you from dodge rolling out of aoe zones.
You can technically slow down and control damage with attacks that reduce targets damage dealt and skills that increase your armor/spell resist. And you can mend that damage with healing.

Some bow skills that might help:
Venom Arrow - sets casters off balance (it's like a ranged bash attack, great in pvp)
Magnum Shot - pushes you away from enemy and shoves them backwords, another way to add some hp regen time.
Lethal Arrow - reduces targets healing received by 40% (now has no minimum range) I wouldn't actually recommend using this unless a boss is a healer and you're taking out ads

All of those bow skills are on my bow.
Saying "use bow" is does not mean 1h+s is fine.
That's the point I am trying to get across.

Lets take that stoneskin or whatever gargoyle boss in rivenspire.
Cant outrun him.
He cripples you too
He is stun/cripple/snare immune.
He will out dps you if you toe to toe.
Break frees and dodge rolls eat the stamina and eat all the damage potential you have.
If you stay away from him (impossible as he is faster) you will leave the combat zone and he resets.
Back to square one.

s7732425ub17_ESO

1h/s is really strong. You just need to learn to play it correctly. You are not supposed to actually use any of the damage abilities in the skill line- any decent player will recognize that they are way too weak to be usable. Use a class ability for damage or stun, and use 1h/s for tons of block mitigation and damage absorption.

Weberda

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

1h/s is really strong. You just need to learn to play it correctly. You are not supposed to actually use any of the damage abilities in the skill line- any decent player will recognize that they are way too weak to be usable. Use a class ability for damage or stun, and use 1h/s for tons of block mitigation and damage absorption.

As a 1h/sh DK I confirm the above statement to be about 99% pure truth.

eventide03b14a_ESO

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

1h/s is really strong. You just need to learn to play it correctly. You are not supposed to actually use any of the damage abilities in the skill line- any decent player will recognize that they are way too weak to be usable. Use a class ability for damage or stun, and use 1h/s for tons of block mitigation and damage absorption.

I think the OP is trying to say that the whole point is that they are immune to stun.

KenjiJU

'Trolls and Ogres' .. Well, Trolls at least are extremely avoidable. You can stand just outside their red circle and still wail on them with melee attacks without being hit.

NotSo

This is starting to sound less and less about sword/shield and more about the relevance of stun utility.

Anyways, I can't complain about the dps output of a sword and shield when you can heavy attack and either puncture or deep slash at the same time by activating the skill at the peek of your heavy swing, effectively doubling your damage.

@Rune_Relic if you're having a hard time managing stamina, you can always spec for more. I only have a few gears that add to max health as I am constantly getting health back from Degeneration and Critical surge. (I wear medium armor)

I'm not saying that you need to have healing spells but if you can't take on every enemy out there then you might want to consider fighting with different methods, either changing your play style or playing with a friend. For the duration of the fight, of course. No need to change doing what you love permanently.

@s7732425ub17_ESO if you have adequate stamina, sword and shield abilities will do a good amount of damage. But most tanks spec into health and fall back on dps.

Surfinginhawaii

I haven't really played since the 1.5 patch and I was using sword and shield so threads like this I find interesting so that I know were to reallocate my skill points.

Rune_Relic

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

1h/s is really strong. You just need to learn to play it correctly. You are not supposed to actually use any of the damage abilities in the skill line- any decent player will recognize that they are way too weak to be usable. Use a class ability for damage or stun, and use 1h/s for tons of block mitigation and damage absorption.

Do you realise what you just wrote ? lol

Rune_Relic

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

1h/s is really strong. You just need to learn to play it correctly. You are not supposed to actually use any of the damage abilities in the skill line- any decent player will recognize that they are way too weak to be usable. Use a class ability for damage or stun, and use 1h/s for tons of block mitigation and damage absorption.

I think the OP is trying to say that the whole point is that they are immune to stun.

Amen ..thanks.

Rune_Relic

ian92415b14_ESO wrote: »

This is starting to sound less and less about sword/shield and more about the relevance of stun utility.

Anyways, I can't complain about the dps output of a sword and shield when you can heavy attack and either puncture or deep slash at the same time by activating the skill at the peek of your heavy swing, effectively doubling your damage.

@Rune_Relic if you're having a hard time managing stamina, you can always spec for more. I only have a few gears that add to max health as I am constantly getting health back from Degeneration and Critical surge. (I wear medium armor)

I'm not saying that you need to have healing spells but if you can't take on every enemy out there then you might want to consider fighting with different methods, either changing your play style or playing with a friend. For the duration of the fight, of course. No need to change doing what you love permanently.

@s7732425ub17_ESO if you have adequate stamina, sword and shield abilities will do a good amount of damage. But most tanks spec into health and fall back on dps.

Perhaps it is all all about stun rather than shield. ...ponders...

Changing weapons ? Isnt that the point though ? Why should I have to change to be competitive ? You are kind of saying shield is crap..which is my point.

The point I am trying to get across is if taking away all armour and any buffs....and just leaving 1h&s vs 2h or dual....I would expect them to stalemate. That's the whole concept of balance. Different playstyles...without being owned. Perhaps that is a misconception on my part. That's in a PVP sense. In a PVE sense I would expect 1h&s to have just as much chance against any boss as 2h or dual wield. OK I wont take the boss down anywhere near as fast ..but I should be able to take it down just as easily through damage mitigation (stun/shield).

So anyway, that means somehow the 1h&s has to be able to do the same damage over time as the dps monsters using dual wield and 2h. There is no way that can happen through weapon power with 1 medium sword in one hand. So you get around that by letting the shield user lower the total dps over time from the other two so they balance out. The shield doesn't really cut the mustard unless they use a power stroke and get stunned. Other than that the shield user relies on stuns to mitigate the damage.

I do appreciate what you are saying though. I already specced to 50/50 split health/stamina (0/17/32) with 55 health regen and 95 stamina regen. That fairly well balances my build otherwise I die through lack of health or lack of stamina (all medium armour is + health/stamina and jewellery +h/s regen). They mainly run out at similar times now.

I also heavy/slash or heavy/puncture weave to give stamina regen. This normally gives around 300/350+dps single target at best (sustainable). Not in the same league as dual wield really I assume ?

[edit: actually saying shiedl is crap is unfair. Where opponents are not stun/snare/cripple immune it is excellent. I love the playstyle. But its broken if ZOS carries on immunizing everything. This immunize everything policy has to stop or the 1h^s becomes pointless IMHO]

NotSo

@Rune_Relic
I was trying to imply that you might have a better experience if you played with a friend

chipputer

As a retired sorcerer tank, now templar healer, I can say that the only two skills I used from 1h/s were the defensive stance->absorb magic and puncture->pierce armor. Pretty much everything else I did was defensive buffing and DoTs. In my case, degeneration and thunderous presence.

My second bar ended up being a restoration staff with some crowd control utility for the odd time I would end up running with someone, but I was able to overcome stun-immune monsters by outlasting them and using heavy attacks to restore stamina when necessary.

It is entirely valid to say that you should change your style if it isn't fitting you-- 1h/s is fine when used appropriately. If it's not working for you change it up and use something else.

AlexDougherty

Skill line is a bit meagre, I'll admit, but the fact your shield adds to your armour rating means it's very useful, for the first fifty levels at least.

Sasky

First of all, CC isn't really specific to a certain class/weapon line. You have multiple ways to build after CC and keep mobs stunlocked. No matter how you go after it, though, that build falls apart when you hit something that's immune to CC.

For any solo 1h/s (non-CC) play, you are simply looking to outlast your opponent and not really worried about dps. Block and bashing heavy attacks paired with some sort of healing does this for most mobs. Instant-cast DoTs are generally better for damage as the cost/damage is pretty good.

I've had some world bosses where I failed to kill them with a LA/destro setup but a 1h/s setup had no issues (using no CC). Some bosses you can solo underlevel 1h/s, while others just hit too hard to take the damage even with shield mitigation.

Sure, you can beat something with dual wield or 1h/s, but it's nowhere near as simple as "2 swords equals 2x the damage". It's a different playstyle to get there.

MrGhosty

I must disagree with you that balance = all things become equal. IMO a game with good balance is all about a game of rock,paper,scissors. DW may have higher DPS but they are forced to expose themselves, 2H can dish out the pain but they do so at cost of being slower. Sword and board may not have amazing damage output, but the mitigation, extra armor+armor enchant slot,extra set bonus piece etc outweigh the DPS.

I really enjoy the various skills with sword and board, but for my personal playstyle, I use the sword and shield to "set the table" as it were and then swap to the other bar which holds my higher damage output. Even if the stun from invasion doesn't work you are still able to move around the fight with nice speed. If the target you're fighting doesn't have any others around them, there is some merit to hold block and backing up. You can also invest in the passive that allows you to move faster while holding block.

Being completely honest here, having every enemy able to be stunned would diminish the gameplay somewhat in my opinion. There are already builds devoted to massive regen that if that creature was stunnable, they could take their time keeping the stun up all day.

Nihil

Rune_Relic wrote: »

ian92415b14_ESO wrote: »

This is starting to sound less and less about sword/shield and more about the relevance of stun utility.

Anyways, I can't complain about the dps output of a sword and shield when you can heavy attack and either puncture or deep slash at the same time by activating the skill at the peek of your heavy swing, effectively doubling your damage.

@Rune_Relic if you're having a hard time managing stamina, you can always spec for more. I only have a few gears that add to max health as I am constantly getting health back from Degeneration and Critical surge. (I wear medium armor)

I'm not saying that you need to have healing spells but if you can't take on every enemy out there then you might want to consider fighting with different methods, either changing your play style or playing with a friend. For the duration of the fight, of course. No need to change doing what you love permanently.

@s7732425ub17_ESO if you have adequate stamina, sword and shield abilities will do a good amount of damage. But most tanks spec into health and fall back on dps.

Perhaps it is all all about stun rather than shield. ...ponders...

Changing weapons ? Isnt that the point though ? Why should I have to change to be competitive ? You are kind of saying shield is crap..which is my point.

The point I am trying to get across is if taking away all armour and any buffs....and just leaving 1h&s vs 2h or dual....I would expect them to stalemate. That's the whole concept of balance. Different playstyles...without being owned. Perhaps that is a misconception on my part. That's in a PVP sense. In a PVE sense I would expect 1h&s to have just as much chance against any boss as 2h or dual wield. OK I wont take the boss down anywhere near as fast ..but I should be able to take it down just as easily through damage mitigation (stun/shield).

So anyway, that means somehow the 1h&s has to be able to do the same damage over time as the dps monsters using dual wield and 2h. There is no way that can happen through weapon power with 1 medium sword in one hand. So you get around that by letting the shield user lower the total dps over time from the other two so they balance out. The shield doesn't really cut the mustard unless they use a power stroke and get stunned. Other than that the shield user relies on stuns to mitigate the damage.

I do appreciate what you are saying though. I already specced to 50/50 split health/stamina (0/17/32) with 55 health regen and 95 stamina regen. That fairly well balances my build otherwise I die through lack of health or lack of stamina (all medium armour is + health/stamina and jewellery +h/s regen). They mainly run out at similar times now.

I also heavy/slash or heavy/puncture weave to give stamina regen. This normally gives around 300/350+dps single target at best (sustainable). Not in the same league as dual wield really I assume ?

[edit: actually saying shiedl is crap is unfair. Where opponents are not stun/snare/cripple immune it is excellent. I love the playstyle. But its broken if ZOS carries on immunizing everything. This immunize everything policy has to stop or the 1h^s becomes pointless IMHO]

Each weapon type will have advantages against different monsters. What works against one boss may not be the best against another, duel wielding works great against melee bosses who are susceptible to heated blades, and sword and shield can work pretty well against magic range mobs (absorb magicka / defensive position). There are some classes who also synergize with different weapons better. I don't see what class you play (might have over looked it) so I can't make any comment on that tho (and if it is templar I have little to no knowledge on that anyways).

Each weapon should not be the end all be all weapon for all encounters, this will add to the aspect of the game where you can customize your build to the situation. I am currently in the process of trying to lvl every morph a sorc can and am noticing the different places some abilities can shine.

Still_Mind

MrGhosty wrote: »

I must disagree with you that balance = all things become equal. IMO a game with good balance is all about a game of rock,paper,scissors. DW may have higher DPS but they are forced to expose themselves, 2H can dish out the pain but they do so at cost of being slower. Sword and board may not have amazing damage output, but the mitigation, extra armor+armor enchant slot,extra set bonus piece etc outweigh the DPS.

I really enjoy the various skills with sword and board, but for my personal playstyle, I use the sword and shield to "set the table" as it were and then swap to the other bar which holds my higher damage output. Even if the stun from invasion doesn't work you are still able to move around the fight with nice speed. If the target you're fighting doesn't have any others around them, there is some merit to hold block and backing up. You can also invest in the passive that allows you to move faster while holding block.

Being completely honest here, having every enemy able to be stunned would diminish the gameplay somewhat in my opinion. There are already builds devoted to massive regen that if that creature was stunnable, they could take their time keeping the stun up all day.

Equal doesn't mean the same. Styles having strengths and weaknesses is normal.

Rock paper-scissors wouldn't be each style having its strengths and weaknesses. RPS is, for example, sword and board almost always winning vs dual wield, dual-wield almost always winning against 2h, and 2h almost always winning against sword and board. And this is questionable game design.

Cody

players with a shield are the best block and spammers in the game, and are a apin to bring down.

shields are fine as they are.

xaraan

I don't think it is becoming useless at all. But, this game has always had a problem with powers not working on powerful mobs - which is normally when you would want to use them. But they all work great on weak mobs you don't need them for.