Fundamental problems with the 2H / Bow Changes

Kypho · October 2014

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Making every skill have a cast time would be a great way to break the game that's for sure. For the record the reason wrecking blow has a cast time is because it does a fairly large amount of damage with a cc effect attached

Well, not every skill of course. I'd keep most DoTs & reaction based skills (e.g. most heals / dmg shields, cloak etc) instant cast, but add varying cast times to abilities such as Whip, Strife, Force Shock etc commonly used DPS skills & balance the damage accordingly.

This would be make the game rely less on animation canceling, would mostly fix the hold block+DPS and make the gameplay more strategic and interesting imo

It would probably make interrupts such as Venom Arrow & Crushing Shock incredibly powerful, but it could be made so that only spells with cast time over 1 second can be interrupted by them.

Interrupts in this game are already incredibly powerful. I also think people in this game complaining about block casting don't understand how short the time to kill in this game is without blocking, I also don't think they solo at all. Cause if you soloed at all you'd know how impossible anything greater then a 1v1 would be without block casting. You'd basically force all solo players into incredible burst builds or shield stacking builds. You'd kill most stamina based solo builds besides bow. Players don't understand that though because most are clueless Zerging nubs

Problem with blocking is this: some classes what is designed to be tanky, casting abilities... wait spamming is better word... to kill multiple enemies while holding block "forever" because they have very good dmg. I bet there are more issues with block, but thats a big one. You could only bash with shield and not whip, or sap, or whatever, just like you would by not hold shield or blocking.
The worst block mechanism what any game i playd. I know its MMO, its not even trying to be immersive/realistic, but still...

(terrible grammar etc. i know. but i hope you understand the point, you are not that low on IQ aye?)

ub17_ESO · October 2014

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

[I dont even use them in my rotation and I can say respectively that I am probably one of the few pure stam builds who can sustain 1.2k-1.4k DPS on SINGLE targets. These screenshots are from Live 1.4. I stack the dots from Acid Spray and Poison Arrow I maintain them while i weave executioner/light*heavy attacks. I am also a Werewolf Sorc and can pull insane HPS/DPS in werewolf form. I dont use Wrecking blow or Snipe due to their poor cast times. However, I will be throwing snipe into the rotation as an opener when 1.5 goes live.

i've been fiddling with a similar build since launch only as an orc but havent had near the results that you have. Coincidence earlier in the day i was touting my 270 weapon power and then i got on the forum and you humbled me!

I must ask, did you pop a weapon power/crit pot prior to the screen shot?

thank you for the motivation!

KenjiJU · October 2014

Don't like that a CC skill is supposed to be 'bread and butter'. Uppercut or whichever you use, should be for CC. They should adjust Cleave to be the 'bread and butter'.

Snipe should remain a longer cast, but also do CC. One of the aoe bow skills should instead be a single targeted - (morphed)multi hit skill, like Silver Shards, but weighted to do more basic damage (since it's not KD and undead/daedra proc). That would be bow's main. (Poison Arrow and morphs are in a good place already I think.) Call it Explosive Arrow or something.

Xsorus · October 2014

Kypho wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Making every skill have a cast time would be a great way to break the game that's for sure. For the record the reason wrecking blow has a cast time is because it does a fairly large amount of damage with a cc effect attached

Well, not every skill of course. I'd keep most DoTs & reaction based skills (e.g. most heals / dmg shields, cloak etc) instant cast, but add varying cast times to abilities such as Whip, Strife, Force Shock etc commonly used DPS skills & balance the damage accordingly.

This would be make the game rely less on animation canceling, would mostly fix the hold block+DPS and make the gameplay more strategic and interesting imo

It would probably make interrupts such as Venom Arrow & Crushing Shock incredibly powerful, but it could be made so that only spells with cast time over 1 second can be interrupted by them.

Interrupts in this game are already incredibly powerful. I also think people in this game complaining about block casting don't understand how short the time to kill in this game is without blocking, I also don't think they solo at all. Cause if you soloed at all you'd know how impossible anything greater then a 1v1 would be without block casting. You'd basically force all solo players into incredible burst builds or shield stacking builds. You'd kill most stamina based solo builds besides bow. Players don't understand that though because most are clueless Zerging nubs

Problem with blocking is this: some classes what is designed to be tanky, casting abilities... wait spamming is better word... to kill multiple enemies while holding block "forever" because they have very good dmg. I bet there are more issues with block, but thats a big one. You could only bash with shield and not whip, or sap, or whatever, just like you would by not hold shield or blocking.
The worst block mechanism what any game i playd. I know its MMO, its not even trying to be immersive/realistic, but still...

(terrible grammar etc. i know. but i hope you understand the point, you are not that low on IQ aye?)

by some classes, you mean all of them..

AS for only bashing with shield and not being able to do the other things..You'd pretty much kill every single stamina build if that was the case..Like I said before.. those who solo know what it'd be like without blocking in this game in its current form..And it wouldn't be a good thing.

ExiledKhallisi · October 2014

ub17_ESO wrote: »

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

[I dont even use them in my rotation and I can say respectively that I am probably one of the few pure stam builds who can sustain 1.2k-1.4k DPS on SINGLE targets. These screenshots are from Live 1.4. I stack the dots from Acid Spray and Poison Arrow I maintain them while i weave executioner/light*heavy attacks. I am also a Werewolf Sorc and can pull insane HPS/DPS in werewolf form. I dont use Wrecking blow or Snipe due to their poor cast times. However, I will be throwing snipe into the rotation as an opener when 1.5 goes live.

i've been fiddling with a similar build since launch only as an orc but havent had near the results that you have. Coincidence earlier in the day i was touting my 270 weapon power and then i got on the forum and you humbled me!

I must ask, did you pop a weapon power/crit pot prior to the screen shot?

thank you for the motivation!

No pot, I can show u a pic after one of those though

ub17_ESO · October 2014

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

ub17_ESO wrote: »

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

[I dont even use them in my rotation and I can say respectively that I am probably one of the few pure stam builds who can sustain 1.2k-1.4k DPS on SINGLE targets. These screenshots are from Live 1.4. I stack the dots from Acid Spray and Poison Arrow I maintain them while i weave executioner/light*heavy attacks. I am also a Werewolf Sorc and can pull insane HPS/DPS in werewolf form. I dont use Wrecking blow or Snipe due to their poor cast times. However, I will be throwing snipe into the rotation as an opener when 1.5 goes live.

i've been fiddling with a similar build since launch only as an orc but havent had near the results that you have. Coincidence earlier in the day i was touting my 270 weapon power and then i got on the forum and you humbled me!

I must ask, did you pop a weapon power/crit pot prior to the screen shot?

thank you for the motivation!

No pot, I can show u a pic after one of those though

my hat is most definitely tipped! I cant figure out how your pulling the crit and weapon power numbers. The screen shot looks like your in 5M/2H. In that combo the highest I'm able to get is 52% crit. Switching to 7M would give me the missing 6% crit but I cant find a suitable replacement to bridge the gap in weopon power from either the ravaging 5 piece or 3 piece dreugh king slayer.

The weapon power all in all has me scratching my head quite a bit. Its ridiculously high! at best I'm getting to 420 WP without the diminishing returns which is 34 shy of where your at.

Again, very nicely done!

mousekime111rwb17_ESO · October 2014

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

zbtiqua wrote: »

The 2H/Bow changes are improvements. However, the concept of having Wrecking Blow and Snipe be the "bread and butter" attacks for 2H and Bow respectively is a problem because both of these abilities require a cast time, whereas the "bread and butter" ability for many other builds is instant cast (Examples: Crushing Shock, Funnel Health, Molten Whip, etc). You can do comparable damage with 2H and Bow now, but you are constantly casting, and that means you are constantly moving much more slowly than other builds.

The result, is a substantial survivability drop for 2H / Bow on many fights, in order to maintain comparable DPS.

In order to balance builds, they must not only be able to do similar max DPS output, they also need to have similar trade-offs for risk/reward. You have made a dent in the DPS comparisons, but there is still a much larger risk for these stamina builds in exchange for that amount of DPS. And don't forget, we still have the problems of roll dodge/block being based out of that DPS pool.

Suggestions:

1) Make Wrecking Blow/Snipe (or a similar morph) be instant cast, but have a 0.8/1.1 second cooldown. This would not change the damage output at all, but would allow movement commensurate with destro staff builds while doing dps.

-or-

2) Allow normal movement speed while channeling Wrecking Blow / Snipe (at least in PvE).

-also-

3) Consider moving roll dodge to the "Horse Stamina" or "endurance" bar, or adding some kind of magicka based avoidance that stamina builds can use.

Conclusion: These changes are excellent and welcome. However, they do not solve all of the obvious, existing problems. Simple tweaks, such as those listed above, could substantially improve these builds before PTS changes go live.

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌ - @ZOS_EricWroebel

Best regards,

zb

I love your suggestions regarding changing snipe/wrecking blow to be instant with a cooldown. However....

You said they are the bread and butter...

I dont even use them in my rotation and I can say respectively that I am probably one of the few pure stam builds who can sustain 1.2k-1.4k DPS on SINGLE targets. These screenshots are from Live 1.4. I stack the dots from Acid Spray and Poison Arrow I maintain them while i weave executioner/light*heavy attacks. I am also a Werewolf Sorc and can pull insane HPS/DPS in werewolf form. I dont use Wrecking blow or Snipe due to their poor cast times. However, I will be throwing snipe into the rotation as an opener when 1.5 goes live.

On live right now I can keep 1.2k dps up with an exclusively duel wield build - going up to ~ 1.3- 1.4k dps on bosses with really long execute phases where executioner shines. This is done almost exclusively with flurry. I'll post some screenshots when my internet isn't capped any more.

actually I managed to get those figures now -

And again with a more difficult to pull off but more stamina efficient build (timed light/heavy attack weaving towards the end of flurry and swapping to 2h at 25%)

demonlkojipub19_ESO · October 2014

Yea im not going to spam uppercuts either. Despite lowering the stam cost, its the most expensive skill in the 2h line. In pve the real bread and butter is reverse slash when the boss gets low.

Im sure zos knew that tho >_>

Erock25 · October 2014

I can get a real nice uppercut, heavy, light rotation going on test live. Just wish I could get addons to work there to check my dps. It is extremely smooth though and almost seems as if there is no extra delay compared to just spamming uppercut. Because heavies are included in the rotation, there are no stamina concerns.

tellessarb14_ESO · October 2014

mousekime111rwb17_ESO What gear are u using using and rotation?

Thejollygreenone · October 2014

Erock25 wrote: »

I can get a real nice uppercut, heavy, light rotation going on test live. Just wish I could get addons to work there to check my dps. It is extremely smooth though and almost seems as if there is no extra delay compared to just spamming uppercut. Because heavies are included in the rotation, there are no stamina concerns.

This build in my fairly unoptimized gear is netting me around 1.2k sustained dps on 1.5.1 with the follow-up passive being introduced and the reduced cast time on uppercut.

Heavy attack-Wrecking Blow-rinse repeat is an amazing rotation pre-execute range, and is so stamina efficient that your stamina bar is pretty much at an even level throughout the rotation.

Here's 2h with potion:

Here's 2h without potion:

Really, I gotta say, I'm happy with the changes with uppercut. They're moving in the right direction. But both DW and 2h need to be able to match the dps that bow will be doing.

Here's bow with potion (Lethal arrow, Acid spray, Poison injection with Morag Tong set):

The thing is with bow, it's not quite sustainable. Heavy attacks aren't in the rotation so stamina does become an issue, possibly even with constant potion use. Over time this may or may not account for the odd 400 dps lost :-/

Erock25 · October 2014

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

I can get a real nice uppercut, heavy, light rotation going on test live. Just wish I could get addons to work there to check my dps. It is extremely smooth though and almost seems as if there is no extra delay compared to just spamming uppercut. Because heavies are included in the rotation, there are no stamina concerns.

This build in my fairly unoptimized gear is netting me around 1.2k sustained dps on 1.5.1 with the follow-up passive being introduced and the reduced cast time on uppercut.

Heavy attack-Wrecking Blow-rinse repeat is an amazing rotation pre-execute range, and is so stamina efficient that your stamina bar is pretty much at an even level throughout the rotation.

Here's 2h with potion:

Here's 2h without potion:

Really, I gotta say, I'm happy with the changes with uppercut. They're moving in the right direction. But both DW and 2h need to be able to match the dps that bow will be doing.

Here's bow with potion (Lethal arrow, Acid spray, Poison injection with Morag Tong set):

The thing is with bow, it's not quite sustainable. Heavy attacks aren't in the rotation so stamina does become an issue, possibly even with constant potion use. Over time this may or may not account for the odd 400 dps lost :-/

Have you tried chaining a light attack with your heavy? There seems to me to be a timing mechanism where you can basically follow through from a heavy attack into a near instant light attack.

Also in regards to bow being better .... why not use bow for DoTs and 2h uppercut rotation? I was thinking of maybe using dual wield / 2h with dual wield for Flying Blade when forced to go range temporarily (ofc would use a bow build when forced to stay range) and Blood Craze dot and 2h uppercut / heavy spam in between.

Thejollygreenone · October 2014

Erock25 wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

I can get a real nice uppercut, heavy, light rotation going on test live. Just wish I could get addons to work there to check my dps. It is extremely smooth though and almost seems as if there is no extra delay compared to just spamming uppercut. Because heavies are included in the rotation, there are no stamina concerns.

This build in my fairly unoptimized gear is netting me around 1.2k sustained dps on 1.5.1 with the follow-up passive being introduced and the reduced cast time on uppercut.

Heavy attack-Wrecking Blow-rinse repeat is an amazing rotation pre-execute range, and is so stamina efficient that your stamina bar is pretty much at an even level throughout the rotation.

Here's 2h with potion:

Here's 2h without potion:

Really, I gotta say, I'm happy with the changes with uppercut. They're moving in the right direction. But both DW and 2h need to be able to match the dps that bow will be doing.

Here's bow with potion (Lethal arrow, Acid spray, Poison injection with Morag Tong set):

The thing is with bow, it's not quite sustainable. Heavy attacks aren't in the rotation so stamina does become an issue, possibly even with constant potion use. Over time this may or may not account for the odd 400 dps lost :-/

Have you tried chaining a light attack with your heavy? There seems to me to be a timing mechanism where you can basically follow through from a heavy attack into a near instant light attack.

Also in regards to bow being better .... why not use bow for DoTs and 2h uppercut rotation? I was thinking of maybe using dual wield / 2h with dual wield for Flying Blade when forced to go range temporarily (ofc would use a bow build when forced to stay range) and Blood Craze dot and 2h uppercut / heavy spam in between.

Interesting thought about the light/heavy chaining. I had noticed something similar on occasion but had never thought it was able to be replicated let alone used consistently. I'll have to try it out.

As to the bow thing, I have tried that out, and it actually is ok. Still not better than pure bow though, the reason being lethal arrow as a spam ability is flat out higher dps, at least with my Morag Tong set.

But I do some form of switching certainly since I use 2h/bow and have been trying to find a way to incorporate both.

For me it ends up being trying to keep up bow DoTs, and using Lethal Arrow to weave when your high on stamina, and replacing it with a switch to 2h for wrecking blow for much better stam maintenance but a hundred or so less dps.

Alternatively, as soon as execution range comes along (30% or so) I'll be switching to 2h anyway for a rotation that favors light attack/executioner while keeping only Poison Injection active.

Certainly an interesting mixup, and can be done with DW instead of 2h, but it stands to be said that bow has higher capability for numbers than either of the two melee options, while having less stamina efficiency. Until 1.5 hits live I'm not sure we'll know what the most efficient method is.

Although your Blood Craze/Wrecking Blow is also an interesting idea, since bow dots + wrecking blow rotation nets more than wrecking blow, it certainly might be the case for DW dot + wrecking blow rotation as well.

tellessarb14_ESO · October 2014

Where do people find the info for these melee builds? I checked the forums here and tamriel foundry. Any info or links would be appreciated.

ExiledKhallisi · October 2014

tellessarb14_ESO wrote: »

Where do people find the info for these melee builds? I checked the forums here and tamriel foundry. Any info or links would be appreciated.

We use our brains and make them ourselves.

Varicite · October 2014

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

tellessarb14_ESO wrote: »

Where do people find the info for these melee builds? I checked the forums here and tamriel foundry. Any info or links would be appreciated.

We use our brains and make them ourselves.

By that, he means we research other successful builds, incorporate some things that work, and add our own flavor while testing dps, sustainability, etc.

You can pretty much forego incorporating stuff from other builds if you have a good head for testing abilities and theorycrafting, though.

tellessarb14_ESO · October 2014

hmm. Lets see

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

tellessarb14_ESO wrote: »

Where do people find the info for these melee builds? I checked the forums here and tamriel foundry. Any info or links would be appreciated.

We use our brains and make them ourselves.

Done that and best i can figure is about 1k with rapid strikes/ DW spam with bow dots. Yall like to boast about being able to do more with only a few screen shots but dont want to back it up with any suggestions or builds. Leaves alot to the imagination.

Thejollygreenone · October 2014

tellessarb14_ESO wrote: »

hmm. Lets see

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

tellessarb14_ESO wrote: »

Where do people find the info for these melee builds? I checked the forums here and tamriel foundry. Any info or links would be appreciated.

We use our brains and make them ourselves.

Done that and best i can figure is about 1k with rapid strikes/ DW spam with bow dots. Yall like to boast about being able to do more with only a few screen shots but dont want to back it up with any suggestions or builds. Leaves alot to the imagination.

I mean, if you want to talk specific builds I'll tell you all about the build I'm using to get 1.7k dps on mammoths post 1.5 with a bow. PM me, I just dont want to bore everyone who doesn't want to hear about it and possibly derail the thread.

ExiledKhallisi · October 2014

Varicite wrote: »

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

tellessarb14_ESO wrote: »

Where do people find the info for these melee builds? I checked the forums here and tamriel foundry. Any info or links would be appreciated.

We use our brains and make them ourselves.

By that, he means we research other successful builds, incorporate some things that work, and add our own flavor while testing dps, sustainability, etc.

You can pretty much forego incorporating stuff from other builds if you have a good head for testing abilities and theorycrafting, though.

No really...It took about an hour of thinking/tinkering with class skills to come up with my build.

Really... theres 6 skills on our bar. Google gives access to all gear sets.... spend a little time and think lol.

PHYSICAL BUILD TIPS:

-prioritize these stats:

WEPDMG>CRIT>STAMINA>HEALTH>RECOVERY

-Dont worry about softcap with wep dmg...try to get as high as possible. 270+ is GG