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Patch Notes v1.4.0 fan made
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Maverick827✭✭✭✭✭
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I want heavy armor tanking to be the "best" or the "easiest," but I don't think it should happen overnight given that pretty much every endgame tank is (or should be) light armor.ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »I wouldn't say that tanking should be restricted to only heavy armor wearers. I would, however, say that tanking should be easiest and most effective for heavy armor wearers, and hardest for light armor wearers, with medium falling somewhere in between.
My problem with heavy armor is that spells just cost too much and can't really be cast without it. A stamina return on block, like the OP suggests (and something I think Zenimax has already said they were looking into before) might allow tanks to be successful with just blocking everything and taunting, but that sounds boring. I like to actually cast spells.
Cost reduction, for both stamina and magicka, shouldn't be tied to armor choice. Replace both of those passives with something else and universally reduce all magicka costs by 21% and stamina costs by 14%.3 -
demonlkojipub19_ESO✭✭✭✭✭The change for heavy armor being better than others at the tanking game is going to happen whether overnight or over 2 months. Prefer overnight. They want to go slow with their changes, but its not good to let one way to play stay so much better than any other way for so long.1 -
Thejollygreenone✭✭✭
I will clarify and do some editing to text.Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »lots of stuff i would like to see, and a few things where i am honestly wondering what you are thinking.
I've tested all weapons, with different builds and classes, and Bow in my opinion will have biggest boost of all weapon skills. All weapon skills will have boost due to rised cap for stamina and more ways to get weapon damage, but main difference are light and heavy attacks. Melee weapons 'white' attacks just sucks with comparison to Bow.Thejollygreenone wrote: »And what boost to bows would that be? I've been on the pts for 1.3.1 a few times, didn't seem to be much if any difference to be for the bow tree.
Problem is, magica builds will also have more magica, spell damage and even more spell crit. I must say, im little afraid of this, especially if ZOS nerf impenetrable trait.
Well, if your reasoning is simply 'stamina/weapon damage soft caps increased, bow has highest light/heavy attacks, stands most to gain,' as it seems, then here's what my response would be....So let's play out this scenario where the damage of light/heavy attacks makes a noticeable difference. 2h light attack damage is pretty weak for no apparent reason, yes. DW light attacks are also weak....individually. But with DW, the idea is that you have two attacks at lower damage going on in the same time window.
My bow in a fully stam geared, unbuffed character on the pts hits for 245 with light attacks and around 415 with point blank heavy attacks. On the same character and gear, DW hits for around 134 damage on each hit, but two hits occur in generally the same timeframe that a bow would get one light attack. So that 134 turns into something more like 268.
However, this fully intended effect of double hits with dual wielding doesn't occur when people use animation cancelling on their light attacks, which is why many have opted to, when trying to make DW work for trials, use heavy attacks to animation cancel instead, so you get both hits.
DW heavy attacks for 164 on one hit and 196 on the other for a total of 360. So, while bow heavy attacks for about 50-60 more damage than DW, DW light attacks (on average) do around 20-25 more damage.
Now on to 2h. My 2h light attacks are pitiful, coming in at 179 at the same rate as bows. No clue why this is. However heavy attacks on 2h come in at around 418, just above that of my bow.
So, my conclusions: Dual wield light attack damage is higher than bow and 2h, but heavy attack is lower than both. 2h light attack damage is much lower than both, but heavy attack damage is higher than both, slightly higher than bow.
HOWEVER! Dual wield kinda gets boned, because it can't use its superior light attack damage while necessarily animation cancelling, and it has the lowest heavy attack damage.
But to be honest, I would argue that light attack damage has VERY little to do with the actual performance of a build, therefore making this very discussion void. Just because bow does indeed have decent light/heavy attack damage, not the best but not nearly the worst, does not mean that they will gain any more from 1.3 than any other weapon.
Bow is flawed from its abilities, (not having a designated/working/high enough damage anytime-ability, primarily) and abilities contribute the most damage for any build. Until bow gets some of its abilities straightened out, I'm near positive that any advantage in light/heavy attacks isn't going to give bow any noticeable overall damage advantage over the melee builds.
Come 1.3, from what I've tested on a PTS nightblade, it seems DW will have the best dps out of the stamina weapons(not considering 1h/shield) in a pve setting with heavy attack+flurry animation clipping, 2h with wrecking blow/heavy attacks and bow with venom arrow/light attack spam are fairly close behind. Bow is something like 10-20 dps ahead of 2h, and DW is 70-90 dps above each of them.
So, without further comment on the fact that bow light/heavy attacks aren't universally higher than 2h or dw, here's my experience on the subject: When 1.3 hits, bow won't be any better than either of the other stamina options when it comes to damage output. There is no difference that I can discern between changes to bow and changes to the other two stamina damage weapons. So I ask again, what boost to bows on 1.3 are you referring to?Edited by Thejollygreenone on 29 July 2014 06:100 -
Matuzes✭✭✭Maverick827 wrote: »I want heavy armor tanking to be the "best" or the "easiest," but I don't think it should happen overnight given that pretty much every endgame tank is (or should be) light armor.
My problem with heavy armor is that spells just cost too much and can't really be cast without it. A stamina return on block, like the OP suggests (and something I think Zenimax has already said they were looking into before) might allow tanks to be successful with just blocking everything and taunting, but that sounds boring. I like to actually cast spells.
Cost reduction, for both stamina and magicka, shouldn't be tied to armor choice. Replace both of those passives with something else and universally reduce all magicka costs by 21% and stamina costs by 14%.
Strange, because i have 3 magica based skills in my skill bar, and i have no problems with magica in heavy armor tanking. Referring to your problems with armor skills, i want use Blood Crazy with my two-handed weapon but i cant, because its restricted to weapon, as armor skills should be restricted to armor.Thejollygreenone wrote: »Come 1.3, from what I've tested on a PTS nightblade, it seems DW will have the best dps out of the stamina weapons(not considering 1h/shield) in a pve setting with heavy attack+flurry animation clipping, 2h with wrecking blow/heavy attacks and bow with venom arrow/light attack spam are fairly close behind. Bow is something like 10-20 dps ahead of 2h, and DW is 70-90 dps above each of them.
So, without further comment on the fact that bow light/heavy attacks aren't universally higher than 2h or dw, here's my experience on the subject: When 1.3 hits, bow won't be any better than either of the other stamina options when it comes to damage output. There is no difference that I can discern between changes to bow and changes to the other two stamina damage weapons. So I ask again, what boost to bows on 1.3 are you referring to?
Mainly tested stamina build with my NB, both pve and pvp on PTS. Tested things like full weapon damage builds, stamina cost reduction, siphoning on/off, different armors, glass cannon builds and a lot more. Others weapon also get boost to dps, but Bow in my opinon, which based on my testing, will be better then dual wield or two-handed in terms of dps. Not a lot more dps then dual wield, but easier to achieve. This is my opinion and i can be mistaken, but we see after 1.3 hits live.Matuzes - Imperial Nightblade
Headhunters1 -
Maverick827✭✭✭✭✭
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That is strange, because it's mathematicly impossible. I guess if you want to cast Entropy all day that's possible, but good luck casting 420 magicka spells regularly.Strange, because i have 3 magica based skills in my skill bar, and i have no problems with magica in heavy armor tanking. Referring to your problems with armor skills, i want use Blood Crazy with my two-handed weapon but i cant, because its restricted to weapon, as armor skills should be restricted to armor.
Your Blood Craze analogy doesn't work, either.Edited by Maverick827 on 29 July 2014 11:131 -
Matuzes✭✭✭Maverick827 wrote: »
That is strange, because it's mathematicly impossible. I guess if you want to cast Entropy all day that's possible, but good luck casting 420 magicka spells regularly.Strange, because i have 3 magica based skills in my skill bar, and i have no problems with magica in heavy armor tanking. Referring to your problems with armor skills, i want use Blood Crazy with my two-handed weapon but i cant, because its restricted to weapon, as armor skills should be restricted to armor.
Your Blood Craze analogy doesn't work, either.
What spells you want to 'spam' exactly?Matuzes - Imperial Nightblade
Headhunters1 -
Thejollygreenone✭✭✭Maverick827 wrote: »I want heavy armor tanking to be the "best" or the "easiest," but I don't think it should happen overnight given that pretty much every endgame tank is (or should be) light armor.
My problem with heavy armor is that spells just cost too much and can't really be cast without it. A stamina return on block, like the OP suggests (and something I think Zenimax has already said they were looking into before) might allow tanks to be successful with just blocking everything and taunting, but that sounds boring. I like to actually cast spells.
Cost reduction, for both stamina and magicka, shouldn't be tied to armor choice. Replace both of those passives with something else and universally reduce all magicka costs by 21% and stamina costs by 14%.
Strange, because i have 3 magica based skills in my skill bar, and i have no problems with magica in heavy armor tanking. Referring to your problems with armor skills, i want use Blood Crazy with my two-handed weapon but i cant, because its restricted to weapon, as armor skills should be restricted to armor.Thejollygreenone wrote: »Come 1.3, from what I've tested on a PTS nightblade, it seems DW will have the best dps out of the stamina weapons(not considering 1h/shield) in a pve setting with heavy attack+flurry animation clipping, 2h with wrecking blow/heavy attacks and bow with venom arrow/light attack spam are fairly close behind. Bow is something like 10-20 dps ahead of 2h, and DW is 70-90 dps above each of them.
So, without further comment on the fact that bow light/heavy attacks aren't universally higher than 2h or dw, here's my experience on the subject: When 1.3 hits, bow won't be any better than either of the other stamina options when it comes to damage output. There is no difference that I can discern between changes to bow and changes to the other two stamina damage weapons. So I ask again, what boost to bows on 1.3 are you referring to?
Mainly tested stamina build with my NB, both pve and pvp on PTS. Tested things like full weapon damage builds, stamina cost reduction, siphoning on/off, different armors, glass cannon builds and a lot more. Others weapon also get boost to dps, but Bow in my opinon, which based on my testing, will be better then dual wield or two-handed in terms of dps. Not a lot more dps then dual wield, but easier to achieve. This is my opinion and i can be mistaken, but we see after 1.3 hits live.
Care to share some specifics then? What bow build/rotation are you using that beats out DW? And for that matter what dual wield build/rotation are you testing against?
Because without some details, all your telling me is that 'I tested things with a bunch of different abilities and bow.' Which isn't very informative
If you could even just list abilities off the action bar of your PTS bow build and DW build, I'd appreciate it.
If someone says they can get more dps with a bow than the other two stamina weapons, I'd surely like to know exactly how. I've been a bow lover since day one. So sorry if I'm coming off pushy and demanding, I'm just quite skeptical when anyone says they can make bow work for pve. ;P
P.S.you say you tested for pvp...how? On the pts I thought you only had access to one faction? Every time I went into cyrodiil on the pts it was deserted because of this. And furthermore, a discussion about pure dps output isn't all too relevant in pvp. In trials, someone who does damage ONLY has to worry about doing damage.
In cyrodiil, top end players roll with many more defensive options and therefore don't have the option to ONLY worry about doing damage. Whenever I talk about pure dps output, I try to restrict my discussion to pve. If you wan to add in pvp to the mix, there's a lot more to talk about than just dps output, but with trials you can get away with talking specifically about numbers. So, I'd be mighty appreciative if we restricted our talk about dps to just pve.
Basically, my conclusion remains... Since nothing specifically is changing about bow on the pts, and it's not better than DW now as far as I know, logically there isn't even a reason for bow to do more when they both got the same exact changes. That's where my skepticism stems from. All the logic I can muster tells me that bow will be in no better of a place come 1.3 in relation to the other stamina weapons as it is now, so forgive me for the continuing skepticism.
So yes, indeed, I guess we should wait til 1.3 hits and see. I REALLY hope you're right, heh. 0 -
Pixysticks✭✭✭✭✭From these patch notes, I can tell that OP is a Werewolf Nightblade that uses a Bow and Dual Wields. If people can tell exactly what you play from your notes, then you know you're being biased.
With that said, almost all the Cyrodiil changes are very good.Alacrity
Retired 05/04/15.3 -
Farkaz✭✭Pixysticks wrote: »From these patch notes, I can tell that OP is a Werewolf Nightblade that uses a Bow and Dual Wields. If people can tell exactly what you play from your notes, then you know you're being biased.
With that said, almost all the Cyrodiil changes are very good.
He's spell power, vamp, S&B + DW.
Edited by Farkaz on 29 July 2014 23:271 -
demonlkojipub19_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Pixysticks wrote: »From these patch notes, I can tell that OP is a Werewolf Nightblade that uses a Bow and Dual Wields. If people can tell exactly what you play from your notes, then you know you're being biased.
With that said, almost all the Cyrodiil changes are very good.
Really because the he has buffs for every melee weapon listed there, far more buffs for heavy armor than medium, and changes listed for both vampire and werewolf that are beneficial to both.
What are you reading to come to your conclusion.
In any case, only a tiny handful of any of it will ever come to fruition. All the easy stuff that doesn't require much work or have much impact on gameplay, like new mount armor. Everything else you might as well not hold your breath, because it will probably be more like patch 3.4.0 when any of it rolls around.Edited by demonlkojipub19_ESO on 30 July 2014 02:132 -
Mojomonkeyman✭✭✭✭✭
✭Some ideas are very good, but some others are outright crazy. Tanky classes with 1h/s and heavy armor would become untouchable killermachines. I don`t wanna play such a game.Koma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo, Dagoth Mojo & Mojomancy1 -
Nala_✭✭✭✭Pixysticks wrote: »From these patch notes, I can tell that OP is a Werewolf Nightblade that uses a Bow and Dual Wields. If people can tell exactly what you play from your notes, then you know you're being biased.
With that said, almost all the Cyrodiil changes are very good.
He's spell power, vamp, S&B + DW.
hes a ww nb that dws, but nice try
source:i fight him constantly in cyro2 -
Matuzes✭✭✭hes a ww nb that dws, but nice try
source:i fight him constantly in cyro
Vampire (want to cure, but 25k for skill reset is way too much)
Weapon Power
1h and Shield
BowMatuzes - Imperial Nightblade
Headhunters1