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Viable melee weapon skill based build?
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steinernein wrote: »I'm experimenting with a set up that has the capacity to reach at least 900+ sustained dps melee. Pure stamina. We'll see how it turns out.Moonchilde wrote: »What a solid stamina build should be like at VR level, IMO. Never gonna happen the way things are, but this is the equivalent to the magika builds we have now. There should be options besides a walking people-oven in cloth/resto.
yeah skyrim had balance ./sarcasm off
spend a few hours stacking alch, chanting and smithing and you 1shot everything in the game.0 -
steinernein✭✭Please let us know if you make it. A lot of us really want to make it work. I capped out on 510 avg dps on mammoths with a two hander. I've run out of significant ideas to make it better.
Quick update, on mammoths: I've more or less surpassed your average at vr 2 with crappy greens and missing flawless dawn breaker, though execute was on my bar.
If I take off execute, and do nothing but mark target , light attack, and wrecking blow my dps ends up at around 450 average.
If I sneak attack, and utilize execute my damage is anywhere from 700 to 800 DPS (that was just for amusement).
Basically, I am pretty much on track and we'll see what I can do with VR12 gear, raid/party buffs. I also need to optimize the rotation a bit as there is a spot before 25% where you should be using execute rather than wrecking blow.
The unfortunate thing is I am probably going to have to hybridize my Nightblade and try to push spell power jewelry and cut a bit of stamina for more magicka. Crippling Grasp is a bit hard to ignore.
Also, I feel that both Templar and DK can pull off similar builds and reach 1k dps if given the right gear. Anyways, these are all projections and we'll see when I get there.
Oh, cleave is perfectly fine and I am pretty sure it will be fine as a primary AoE source.
The only class that really can't do any of this and has no chance of reaching it without doing something janky is the sorc, and I have a possible pathway for that as well.0 -
Armitas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭steinernein wrote: »Please let us know if you make it. A lot of us really want to make it work. I capped out on 510 avg dps on mammoths with a two hander. I've run out of significant ideas to make it better.
Quick update, on mammoths: I've more or less surpassed your average at vr 2 with crappy greens and missing flawless dawn breaker, though execute was on my bar.
If I take off execute, and do nothing but mark target , light attack, and wrecking blow my dps ends up at around 450 average.
If I sneak attack, and utilize execute my damage is anywhere from 700 to 800 DPS (that was just for amusement).
Basically, I am pretty much on track and we'll see what I can do with VR12 gear, raid/party buffs. I also need to optimize the rotation a bit as there is a spot before 25% where you should be using execute rather than wrecking blow.
The unfortunate thing is I am probably going to have to hybridize my Nightblade and try to push spell power jewelry and cut a bit of stamina for more magicka. Crippling Grasp is a bit hard to ignore.
Also, I feel that both Templar and DK can pull off similar builds and reach 1k dps if given the right gear. Anyways, these are all projections and we'll see when I get there.
Oh, cleave is perfectly fine and I am pretty sure it will be fine as a primary AoE source.
The only class that really can't do any of this and has no chance of reaching it without doing something janky is the sorc, and I have a possible pathway for that as well.
The 510 does not include stealth. I hit for well over 2k from stealth so it would make my parse go up a lot higher. Since I can only do it once I left it out of the parse to better represent a sustained parse. NBs can...theoretically..., go back into stealth so maybe an opening stealth hit is representative, not sure.Edited by Armitas on 4 June 2014 13:48Retired.
Nord mDK0 -
Baphomet✭✭✭✭✭
✭If you're running a stamina heavy build you need to use magicka abitilies for utility instead of blocking and dodging too much. And generally speaking, blocking is way more stamina friendly than dodging.
If you build around stamina, weave in some light and heavy attacks, too, as you will use those free attacks to much greater effect than magica based counterparts.
Stamina builds can dish out some impressive numbers - especially in PvP since most people are running with light armor - but they have to be more alert how they use their main resource. Find a healthy balance between your usage of stamina and magicka feats and you can be perfectly viable.- The Psijic Order
- TKO
- Dominant Dominion
- The Noore0 -
steinernein✭✭
The 510 does not include stealth. I hit for well over 2k from stealth so it would make my parse go up a lot higher. Since I can only do it once I left it out of the parse to better represent a sustained parse. NBs can...theoretically..., go back into stealth so maybe an opening stealth hit is representative, not sure.
I already said I can do it without stealth in poor itemization, without stealth, and without a key ability.
Everyone can open with a stealth attack too. Going back into stealth is probably going to be a DPS loss.
Basically, you should be going way above 510.0 -
Tobiz✭✭✭Stamina builds can dish out some impressive numbers - especially in PvP since most people are running with light armor - but they have to be more alert how they use their main resource. Find a healthy balance between your usage of stamina and magicka feats and you can be perfectly viable.
Thanks. I appreciate your input.
I don't pvp much, so my builds are PVE focused.
Do you have an example build that matches your claims?
The problem I see are not stamina/magicka management but the damage in/damage out.
Always being in range of all attacks from mobs makes me have to block many attacks, draining my stamina.
If I dont block I die.
Draining my stamina makes me unable to block, see above.
Also, always blocking doesnt kill mobs, so its just a matter of time before I die.
I have 26 points in stam, thinking it would make me kill stuff faster, but I think I have to respec to 49 health just to keep me alive a second more.
26 points = 260 stam, or 390 health right? Not that big a deal unless there is more to it. Like an attribute point spent raises certain caps or other hidden mechanic.
With a ranged staff/bow build you always move to keep range, thus negating melee short range aoe. There are many cc abilities that cater to the ranged playstile like snares and roots.
A melee build must move out, move in or block melee aoe losing time, taking damage from other ranged mobs and losing stamina, obviously you focus on killing ranged first though.
Snares and roots does nothing when you have to be in range to deal damage.
But the damage in is alot higher for melee playstiles and medium and heavy armor does not mitigate enough to keep you alive even though I reach 'overcharge'.
But then if mitigation is buffed im sure someone would find a build that makes you invincible.
You'd think, looking at stats in the game, that when you are soft-capped in armour and spell resistance, you have decent mitigation, but that isnt the case. Its better then nothing, but not good enough.
Light, medium and heavy armor should have different caps, Light being lower then current softcap, medium higher then current, and heavy alot higher.
Caps for damage in/out should scale with your placed attribute points that there is a sacrifice in picking either. Attributes would then be a definer of gameplay, health = survivability, stamina = melee damage, magicka = duh.
OR
Devs should open up the stats so we can see what makes stuff tick so we can figure out how to play.
Im hoping someone reads this, hence the big wall of text...Edited by Tobiz on 6 June 2014 08:10Attention Zenimax: Stamina builds don't hold up to magicka builds, and this is causing most of your class imbalance. It makes melee weapons and bows weaker than staves and class abilities. It makes medium and heavy armor less desirable than light armor. Fix this imbalance, and you'll address most of your balance issues.0 -
jesterstear✭✭✭Indeed, had a near-death experience against a Pyromancer/Cyromancer pair in VR1, guarding the entrance to a room.
Silly me, slotting Absorb Magic (Defensive posture morph of Sword and Shield line) thinking that would absorb some of their attacks. No, the ability to conjure flame lasers and tornadoes of ice out of thin air in the desert arent' magical at all !
I run up to one, interrupt with a bash. The other casts ice on me while interrupting mr flame, now i'm rooted and can't reach the other guy to interrupt him. Their most damaging attack is that line of flame that runs along the ground/tordado of ice. If you go ranged, you easily have time to react and can simply walk left/right to avoid. No need to dodge or sprint. In melee , your only hope is to interrupt, but against two this isn't going to happen. Sat there spamming heals before realising that whilst escape seemed unlikely in the face of this ranged damage, staying put was certain death. Managed to get away by the skin of my teeth, came back at them with a restoration staff for an easy kill.0 -
Tobiz✭✭✭You break the root with pressing and hold left and right mouseclick(default) in that order. This sacrifices stamina.
The cone or straight line aoe are easily avoided by circling your target.Attention Zenimax: Stamina builds don't hold up to magicka builds, and this is causing most of your class imbalance. It makes melee weapons and bows weaker than staves and class abilities. It makes medium and heavy armor less desirable than light armor. Fix this imbalance, and you'll address most of your balance issues.0 -
jesterstear✭✭✭You break the root with pressing and hold left and right mouseclick(default) in that order. This sacrifices stamina.
The cone or straight line aoe are easily avoided by circling your target.
Doesn't change the fact that it's much much easier to deal with this pair at range. While your breaking the root and interrupting the guy on the left the one on the right casts something at you again. So you take 1000 damage and loose a big chunk of stamina.0 -
Tobiz✭✭✭jesterstear wrote: »Doesn't change the fact that it's much much easier to deal with this pair at range. While your breaking the root and interrupting the guy on the left the one on the right casts something at you again. So you take 1000 damage and loose a big chunk of stamina.
In no way do I disagree, I was just posting for the sake of correctness that each problem is solveable, so noone thinks that a root is unbreakable or that frontal aoe cannot be avoided. Also this kind of partner AI is wonderful, except that it hits melee alot harder then ranged.Attention Zenimax: Stamina builds don't hold up to magicka builds, and this is causing most of your class imbalance. It makes melee weapons and bows weaker than staves and class abilities. It makes medium and heavy armor less desirable than light armor. Fix this imbalance, and you'll address most of your balance issues.0 -
Drachdhar✭✭✭What I see here is what I have said since day one... Stamina builds suck.
And much like every other MMO i've ever played, ranged trumps melee big time. Its the common mistake of making ranged characters hit harder than melee characters when ranged character already does not have to deal with having to face tank every melee mob out there.
In this case Pulsar spam is the exception that confirms the rule...
IMO, I think magicka based builds are fine as they are. But stamina builds just are not, especially not the melee focused ones.
But I suspect, much like in the case of classes, they nerf magicka based builds while not fixing the weapon skills. Just like they tend to nerf the DK when its the other classes that needs to get buffed.
It's the common MMO mistake after all, nerf what works and never fix whats broken so one ends up with one massive pile of debris.0 -
Tobiz✭✭✭Im not sure. I believe Zos wanted to make meaningful combat. Making blocking,dodging essential. With the magicka aoe spam, you just trample that.
If you want to make it dangerous for a ranged or aoe spaming clothie, Zos need to make light armor have lower armor cap.
For me as melee, 3 mobs is a dangerous fight. I avoid it if I can, its a 50/50 unless I have ultimate up, then its 90/10 win.
If you buff alot of the classes/weapons then they just trample the combat too.
I believe it is Light armor/staff/magicka that needs a genuine nerf bat beating. But the outcry would be too much to handle so they cant do that.
What we will see I believe is a buff to the weapon trees/stamina builds, and a general increase in health on players and mobs to keep combat interesting.Attention Zenimax: Stamina builds don't hold up to magicka builds, and this is causing most of your class imbalance. It makes melee weapons and bows weaker than staves and class abilities. It makes medium and heavy armor less desirable than light armor. Fix this imbalance, and you'll address most of your balance issues.1 -
SootyTX✭✭✭Im not sure. I believe Zos wanted to make meaningful combat. Making blocking,dodging essential. With the magicka aoe spam, you just trample that.
If you want to make it dangerous for a ranged or aoe spaming clothie, Zos need to make light armor have lower armor cap.
For me as melee, 3 mobs is a dangerous fight. I avoid it if I can, its a 50/50 unless I have ultimate up, then its 90/10 win.
If you buff alot of the classes/weapons then they just trample the combat too.
I believe it is Light armor/staff/magicka that needs a genuine nerf bat beating. But the outcry would be too much to handle so they cant do that.
What we will see I believe is a buff to the weapon trees/stamina builds, and a general increase in health on players and mobs to keep combat interesting.
I certainly agree that the outcry would be huge and ZoS is too far down the line now to nerf the light armor/staff/magicka builds.
I'm sad that the further I get along, the less the game feels like Elder Scrolls. On the player side, there's almost no warriors in heavy armor wielding sword & shield or heavy 2 handed axes, there's almost no leather-clad melee fighters tearing apart the npc casters. I can be sneaking through a solo dungeon (at VR level), taking out each group and working my way to the end boss, when some guy in a dress with a staff screams past, gathering up 4 or 5 groups at a time and AOEing them down in a few seconds flat.
At which point I usually log off or go play a lowbie alt, where at I feel like its a TES game a little.
The complete disconnect between magicka and stamina based builds is what I don't understand as being acceptible to ZoS. If I wanted to play yet another korean style flashy light game, I'd be doing that.
Ugh...I hope you are right that they'll buff the weapon lines, because for me its not an option to follow the masses into the LA+staff, I'll simply stop playing.
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Moonchilde✭✭✭Back in the olden days of Fantasy RP games, the ancient rules documents state plainly, that: If a magic user is struck while casting a spell, the spell is canceled.
You see, Fantasy is based on legends and lore about people who could weave magical spells. These sources indicated that it was a delicate process requiring concentration and meditative stillness. Spells were very UNLIKE firing a gun, as they are interpreted today.
Imagine if you will, a game like Elder Scrolls Online acknowledging the rudiments of Fantasy RP, and making spells interruptible by any physical attack? What do you think that would do for melee characters?1 -
Cheatingdeath23✭✭✭jesterstear wrote: »Indeed, had a near-death experience against a Pyromancer/Cyromancer pair in VR1, guarding the entrance to a room.
Silly me, slotting Absorb Magic (Defensive posture morph of Sword and Shield line) thinking that would absorb some of their attacks. No, the ability to conjure flame lasers and tornadoes of ice out of thin air in the desert arent' magical at all !
I run up to one, interrupt with a bash. The other casts ice on me while interrupting mr flame, now i'm rooted and can't reach the other guy to interrupt him. Their most damaging attack is that line of flame that runs along the ground/tordado of ice. If you go ranged, you easily have time to react and can simply walk left/right to avoid. No need to dodge or sprint. In melee , your only hope is to interrupt, but against two this isn't going to happen. Sat there spamming heals before realising that whilst escape seemed unlikely in the face of this ranged damage, staying put was certain death. Managed to get away by the skin of my teeth, came back at them with a restoration staff for an easy kill.
See, I like a balance between magicka and stamina. I have 13 points in each and the rest in health (level 46).
There are two ways to deal with these guys.
Ranged skill bar:
I'd throw down volcanic rune and blow them up, alternating with the templar fireball and silver shards. If I need to heal, I have breathe of life. This works on 99% of enemies fairly effectively, but I do run out of magicka or stamina eventually. [Against bigger mobs, I keep using stamina and then refill stamina with repentance]
Melee skill bar:
I would use invasion to get up close and knock one of the mages down. Then I attack the second mage while the first mage is dazed. Then I use power bash on either one and attack the other one.
As long as you have the stamina to keep this up, you can take on two enemies at once no problem. I throw in Solar Barrage and purifying ritual to do damage/heal.
So... if I have 2 enemies or less, I use melee skill bar. 3 or more, I use ranged, as silver shard and fireball both hit 3 enemies, whereas melee only hits 1.
We'll see how it goes in VR territory, but the stun is key to facing 1-2 enemies and having an easy time of it.
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Tobiz✭✭✭Cheatingdeath23 wrote: »jesterstear wrote: »Indeed, had a near-death experience against a Pyromancer/Cyromancer pair in VR1, guarding the entrance to a room.
Silly me, slotting Absorb Magic (Defensive posture morph of Sword and Shield line) thinking that would absorb some of their attacks. No, the ability to conjure flame lasers and tornadoes of ice out of thin air in the desert arent' magical at all !
I run up to one, interrupt with a bash. The other casts ice on me while interrupting mr flame, now i'm rooted and can't reach the other guy to interrupt him. Their most damaging attack is that line of flame that runs along the ground/tordado of ice. If you go ranged, you easily have time to react and can simply walk left/right to avoid. No need to dodge or sprint. In melee , your only hope is to interrupt, but against two this isn't going to happen. Sat there spamming heals before realising that whilst escape seemed unlikely in the face of this ranged damage, staying put was certain death. Managed to get away by the skin of my teeth, came back at them with a restoration staff for an easy kill.
See, I like a balance between magicka and stamina. I have 13 points in each and the rest in health (level 46).
There are two ways to deal with these guys.
Ranged skill bar:
I'd throw down volcanic rune and blow them up, alternating with the templar fireball and silver shards. If I need to heal, I have breathe of life. This works on 99% of enemies fairly effectively, but I do run out of magicka or stamina eventually. [Against bigger mobs, I keep using stamina and then refill stamina with repentance]
Melee skill bar:
I would use invasion to get up close and knock one of the mages down. Then I attack the second mage while the first mage is dazed. Then I use power bash on either one and attack the other one.
As long as you have the stamina to keep this up, you can take on two enemies at once no problem. I throw in Solar Barrage and purifying ritual to do damage/heal.
So... if I have 2 enemies or less, I use melee skill bar. 3 or more, I use ranged, as silver shard and fireball both hit 3 enemies, whereas melee only hits 1.
We'll see how it goes in VR territory, but the stun is key to facing 1-2 enemies and having an easy time of it.
With no disrespect, the gameplay is fine up to veteran rank enemies.
Fighting 6-7 mobs at lvl 45ish is perfectly doable.
At veteran rank, the enemies hit like freight trains and an unmititigated heavy attack or channeled spell will peal of 30-40% health when at ~2k health.
You must certainly be on your toes to keep the stuns up, the mitigation spells on, and still dish out enough dps that the enemies are down before your magicka/stamina is.
Forget weapon swapping, there is no chance I can leave my guard open long enough to swap when standing in front of enemies hitting me.
For the 2 seconds it takes to stop everything, swap and get back to blocking, I have taken more damage then what anything would benefit me on the other bar.
It is my belief that there is a scaling issue with veteran rank melee characters stats.
The mitigation provided by armor is miniscule from medium and heavy. Light is fine, it should be squishy, but squishies with staffs have more synergies to regenerate magicka, which in turn can be used for health returning spells and also reducing the cost for them.
Medium does have the stamina regeneration, but that cant be translated to health. It does have the melee dps synergies, but when I need to cc/roll/block everything to live, I dont push damage.
Heavy has the health regeneration, but that is so very little and with armor rating doing so very little and caps being so very low, meh.
The armor skills should also require at least a majority of its type to be used i.e. 4 pieces.
A stamina based character can not provide the survivability, even though it should be the opposite as melee playstiles have to be close to its foe punching them in the face dodging their attacks.
Since my original post Ive managed to find a working playstile.
I can quest well enough and ive grown to vr4. I still die to groups of three if I dont have a stun/cc/interrupt timed just right for a heavy/channeled attack,
I even die to two mobs if im surprised.
But I believe that might be the intended gameplay so I dont mind.
Then I see that guy riding up to the world boss I've been buffing and changing skills to match the fight for after 4-5 tries solo. He whips up his staff starting his thing and I just watch as he nuke the boss down with no problem what so ever. Then I sit there wondering what Im doing wrong.
I now believe that while stamina synergies need a buff, its actually the magicka that need a nerf, one that affects light armor and staff magicka upkeep.
I dont see that the devs intended for clothies to be the best survivalist while pushing the best damage.
That or the game mechanics guys need to tell us what the intended gameplay is.
I generally dont cry this much in forums, but I want to play this game so I want it to be fun.
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom
@ZOS_GinaBruno
Are sticks'n'dress supposed to be the only way to feel powerful?
Are stamina builds doing it wrong?
Please give your thoughts on this.Attention Zenimax: Stamina builds don't hold up to magicka builds, and this is causing most of your class imbalance. It makes melee weapons and bows weaker than staves and class abilities. It makes medium and heavy armor less desirable than light armor. Fix this imbalance, and you'll address most of your balance issues.0 -
Shaun98ca2✭✭✭✭✭Cheatingdeath23 wrote: »jesterstear wrote: »Indeed, had a near-death experience against a Pyromancer/Cyromancer pair in VR1, guarding the entrance to a room.
Silly me, slotting Absorb Magic (Defensive posture morph of Sword and Shield line) thinking that would absorb some of their attacks. No, the ability to conjure flame lasers and tornadoes of ice out of thin air in the desert arent' magical at all !
I run up to one, interrupt with a bash. The other casts ice on me while interrupting mr flame, now i'm rooted and can't reach the other guy to interrupt him. Their most damaging attack is that line of flame that runs along the ground/tordado of ice. If you go ranged, you easily have time to react and can simply walk left/right to avoid. No need to dodge or sprint. In melee , your only hope is to interrupt, but against two this isn't going to happen. Sat there spamming heals before realising that whilst escape seemed unlikely in the face of this ranged damage, staying put was certain death. Managed to get away by the skin of my teeth, came back at them with a restoration staff for an easy kill.
See, I like a balance between magicka and stamina. I have 13 points in each and the rest in health (level 46).
There are two ways to deal with these guys.
Ranged skill bar:
I'd throw down volcanic rune and blow them up, alternating with the templar fireball and silver shards. If I need to heal, I have breathe of life. This works on 99% of enemies fairly effectively, but I do run out of magicka or stamina eventually. [Against bigger mobs, I keep using stamina and then refill stamina with repentance]
Melee skill bar:
I would use invasion to get up close and knock one of the mages down. Then I attack the second mage while the first mage is dazed. Then I use power bash on either one and attack the other one.
As long as you have the stamina to keep this up, you can take on two enemies at once no problem. I throw in Solar Barrage and purifying ritual to do damage/heal.
So... if I have 2 enemies or less, I use melee skill bar. 3 or more, I use ranged, as silver shard and fireball both hit 3 enemies, whereas melee only hits 1.
We'll see how it goes in VR territory, but the stun is key to facing 1-2 enemies and having an easy time of it.
With no disrespect, the gameplay is fine up to veteran rank enemies.
Fighting 6-7 mobs at lvl 45ish is perfectly doable.
At veteran rank, the enemies hit like freight trains and an unmititigated heavy attack or channeled spell will peal of 30-40% health when at ~2k health.
You must certainly be on your toes to keep the stuns up, the mitigation spells on, and still dish out enough dps that the enemies are down before your magicka/stamina is.
Forget weapon swapping, there is no chance I can leave my guard open long enough to swap when standing in front of enemies hitting me.
For the 2 seconds it takes to stop everything, swap and get back to blocking, I have taken more damage then what anything would benefit me on the other bar.
It is my belief that there is a scaling issue with veteran rank melee characters stats.
The mitigation provided by armor is miniscule from medium and heavy. Light is fine, it should be squishy, but squishies with staffs have more synergies to regenerate magicka, which in turn can be used for health returning spells and also reducing the cost for them.
Medium does have the stamina regeneration, but that cant be translated to health. It does have the melee dps synergies, but when I need to cc/roll/block everything to live, I dont push damage.
Heavy has the health regeneration, but that is so very little and with armor rating doing so very little and caps being so very low, meh.
The armor skills should also require at least a majority of its type to be used i.e. 4 pieces.
A stamina based character can not provide the survivability, even though it should be the opposite as melee playstiles have to be close to its foe punching them in the face dodging their attacks.
Since my original post Ive managed to find a working playstile.
I can quest well enough and ive grown to vr4. I still die to groups of three if I dont have a stun/cc/interrupt timed just right for a heavy/channeled attack,
I even die to two mobs if im surprised.
But I believe that might be the intended gameplay so I dont mind.
Then I see that guy riding up to the world boss I've been buffing and changing skills to match the fight for after 4-5 tries solo. He whips up his staff starting his thing and I just watch as he nuke the boss down with no problem what so ever. Then I sit there wondering what Im doing wrong.
I now believe that while stamina synergies need a buff, its actually the magicka that need a nerf, one that affects light armor and staff magicka upkeep.
I dont see that the devs intended for clothies to be the best survivalist while pushing the best damage.
That or the game mechanics guys need to tell us what the intended gameplay is.
I generally dont cry this much in forums, but I want to play this game so I want it to be fun.
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom
@ZOS_GinaBruno
Are sticks'n'dress supposed to be the only way to feel powerful?
Are stamina builds doing it wrong?
Please give your thoughts on this.
Official response would be "Its being looked into" which can mean its working perfectly fine but we will look anyways, or we will nerf magic or buff Stamina. Basically a non answer answer0