Armor balancing

Denaia · June 2014

Hey guys,

Yesterday I posted something about this in the 1.2 thread but I wanted to express my opinion a little bit longer in a seperate thread. As a huge issue at the moment is that every armor outside of light armor isn't viable enough at the moment. For that reason I would like to suggest some changes that might make all armor more viable :

Light armor (magicka)

Passives
Evocation : No change needed
Recovery : No change needed
Spell warding : *new* Every time you are hit by a spell regenerate magicka for X% per armor piece equiped
Prodigy : no change needed
Concentration : *new* Player spells deal 1% more damage per piece of light armor equiped

Medium armor (stamina)

Passives
Dexterity : *new* reduces stamina cost of abilities by 0.5% per medium armor equipped. Increases critical strike chance by 0.5% per medium armor equipped
Windwalker : no change needed
*new* Assasin : Decreases stealth detection area by 3% per medium armor equipped. Reduces stamina cost of abilities by another 0.5% per medium armor equipped. (instead of improved sneak)
Agility : Increases attack speed by 5% when a 5set medium armor is equipped. *new* Also reduces stealth cost by 50%.
Athletics : *new* Player's critical strike damage hit 1% harder per piece of medium armor equipped. Also reduces stamina cost of roll dodge by 1%.

Intend of these changes : make medium armor more on par with magicka and make stamina a more viable attribute to choose.

Heavy armor (health/attack)

Resolve : *new* When having a taunt slotted increases armor and base spell resistance by 1% per heavy armor equipped. When having no taunt slotted increases base spell resistance by 1% and increase weapon damage by 1% per piece of heavy equipment.
Constitution : No change needed
Juggernaut : *new* Increases damage done by stamina attacks by 0.5% per piece of heavy armor equipped. When having a taunt stamina increases by 0.5% per piece of heavy armor equipped.
Bracing : *new* when having a taunt reduces cost of blocking by 10% when a 5 set equipped. When having no taunt slotted 5% critical chance with melee weapons when a 5 set equipped.
Rapid Mending : *new* when having a taunt increases healing gained by 0.5% per piece of heavy armor equipped. When having no taunt melee attacks will heal you for 0.2% per heavy armor equipped.

Intend of these changes : Making heavy armor both viable for tanks as for dps by giving some bonusses only to those who use taunts and some bonusses only to those who don't use taunts. Also giving more incentive to use stamina based abilities while in heavy armor.

Conclusion
Fixing these things will make heavy armor and medium armor much more viable. Besides that it will also give more reason to take stamina instead of magicka abilities.

I hope you guys like it and want to see this implemented like I am.

alexj4596b14_ESO · June 2014

The only thing I see wrong with this is it's not generalized as much. Amour is considered a "Base" or foundation for how your char will work. Heavy amour need cost reduction of magic and stamina, other then that I like it! And the spell resit need too be higher then light
Amour over all. Also magic and stamina regin as well. If your not a DK tanking all of the other class ablitiys that can be used for tanking are vary expensive. Scorc shileds without light amour cost 400 magic too use this is just a example. Thoses kinds of abilitys are what would kill heavy amour scorc for tanking, atlest with a magic based build and I feel that every other magic based tankin build will have the same problem and same for stamina. For dps heavy amour build I feel as though the cost reduction would improve their dps as a whole.

DeLindsay · June 2014

Once again another thread suggesting that:

Light armor: Should only be for Healing and Caster DPS.
Medium Armor: Should only be for Physical DPS.
Heavy Armor: Should only be for Tanking.

People need to get over the fact that this is ESO, not a cookie cutter MMO. There is no reason whatsoever that a "Role" in ESO has to be filled with a traditional "Class" wearing traditional armor.

First the problem with Weapon-Stamina based abilities goes WAY deeper than a few tweaks to Medium Armor (or Heavy Armor as you also suggest). Until ZoS figures that whole thing out people will use Medium Armor pretty much to sneak through Group Public Delves to get Skyshards or get to the end boss without having to fight anything.

Second, the problem with Light Armor atm is it synergizes better with Magicka based abilities (which it should) and since at this time in ESO Magicka based abilities are superior DPS to Stamina based ones, people go with what is superior. A tweak in the passives won't change this, and your "regen Magicka on hit" comment is lols, that'll mean almost nobody will OOM ever again in ESO.

Third, there is no problem with Heavy Armor atm and it does in FACT provide superior benefits to Light Armor when used for Tanking. Tank DPS is irrelevant (save for super fast Trial times atm) so having the ability to spam Magicka based abilities (using Light Armor) is also irrelevant. I'd bet most people just don't want to carry around 2 sets of gear and Tanking in full Light Armor isn't much worse than full Heavy Armor.

Once again, I'm all for ZoS improving all aspects of the game including active and passive ability balances. The problem is threads like this seem to want to steer ESO into emulating every other MMO out there and that's just not what the devs had in mind with this game. Sure the "play as you want to play" is still here but it's become more "play as you want to play, or play DK/Sorc if you want to be better" since right now they are superior to NB/Temp for everything, but ZoS is also working on that, just slower than some would like.

alexj4596b14_ESO · June 2014

DeLindsay wrote: »

Once again another thread suggesting that:

Light armor: Should only be for Healing and Caster DPS.
Medium Armor: Should only be for Physical DPS.
Heavy Armor: Should only be for Tanking.

People need to get over the fact that this is ESO, not a cookie cutter MMO. There is no reason whatsoever that a "Role" in ESO has to be filled with a traditional "Class" wearing traditional armor.

First the problem with Weapon-Stamina based abilities goes WAY deeper than a few tweaks to Medium Armor (or Heavy Armor as you also suggest). Until ZoS figures that whole thing out people will use Medium Armor pretty much to sneak through Group Public Delves to get Skyshards or get to the end boss without having to fight anything.

Second, the problem with Light Armor atm is it synergizes better with Magicka based abilities (which it should) and since at this time in ESO Magicka based abilities are superior DPS to Stamina based ones, people go with what is superior. A tweak in the passives won't change this, and your "regen Magicka on hit" comment is lols, that'll mean almost nobody will OOM ever again in ESO.

Third, there is no problem with Heavy Armor atm and it does in FACT provide superior benefits to Light Armor when used for Tanking. Tank DPS is irrelevant (save for super fast Trial times atm) so having the ability to spam Magicka based abilities (using Light Armor) is also irrelevant. I'd bet most people just don't want to carry around 2 sets of gear and Tanking in full Light Armor isn't much worse than full Heavy Armor.

Once again, I'm all for ZoS improving all aspects of the game including active and passive ability balances. The problem is threads like this seem to want to steer ESO into emulating every other MMO out there and that's just not what the devs had in mind with this game. Sure the "play as you want to play" is still here but it's become more "play as you want to play, or play DK/Sorc if you want to be better" since right now they are superior to NB/Temp for everything, but ZoS is also working on that, just slower than some would like.

See I just don't see what your referring too.

The OP post was vary nicely done.

For heAvy amour you would get 5% crit increase when a taunt is not on your(DPS). Those heavy amour passives are dual aspect one for dps one for tanks. Right now it's just not worth it too tank in heavy amour that is the point. You get grater benefit from upswing light amour over all. In light amour I can tank, and reduce my cost of all my class abilitys, and up my over all damage.

In the above OP you could get heavy amour damage and it tanks. However OP I don't believe he/she took into account the cost too use abilitys. Per my example my shiled in heavy amour cost me 400 magic that is huge that means I have too chose betwen taunting it or taking heat off the healer. Make a tank make that choice is just absurd we should be able too do both.

Now for dps builds in heavy amour are normally use heavy weapon/spell powr build becuse you can't use crit effectively. This would also help that. Templars that tank or heal could use what the above OP did with the amour as long as you put the cost reduction on there. I would love too see a useful heavy amour healer. For tanking Templar that means he can really use his/her abilities more often then - every 6 second if you account for magic regin. This change would help dps any dps by helping them achieve more durability. In fact I know a Templar avatar 2h damage in midium amour is 600-1.2 sustained damage gues what he dies from 3 hits in doungons becuse he has invested so heavy into dps. From a healer perspective he is a problem. That player sucks mana out of the heal as if it was water. With heavy amour he could still achieve the same thing and not die instantly.

Their are so many binfits from light amour in comparison too light once I went light amour I have never gone back. Midium amour just needs a few adjusments. But heavy amour needs too be good for all player types not just one. The OP achieved this as long as regin and cost reduction were added in. No point in upswing heavy amour and can only use 3 abilitys every 4 seconds any way.

DeLindsay · June 2014

alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »

See I just don't see what your referring too.

The OP post was vary nicely done.

For heAvy amour you would get 5% crit increase when a taunt is not on your(DPS). Those heavy amour passives are dual aspect one for dps one for tanks. Right now it's just not worth it too tank in heavy amour that is the point. You get grater benefit from upswing light amour over all. In light amour I can tank, and reduce my cost of all my class abilitys, and up my over all damage.

Tank DPS is irrelevant
Tanks spamming class abilities is irrelevant

Taking those 2 into account, Heavy Armor passives right now provide a superior tanking choice over Light Armor. One CAN tank in Light Armor but at a cost of lower mitigation and lower heals on the Tank from the actual Healer in the group. Add increased Health Recovery and lowered Block cost and Heavy Armor is superior in every way to Light Armor from a purely Tanking perspective. His idea of even more DPS passive benefit if you do not have Taunt on your bar is moot at this point in ESO because Stamina-based weapon abilities are horrible and sub par on every level to Magicka-based abilities (which is why everyone is using Light Armor).

Also, once again, there is NO REASON to infer that Tanks should want or have to wear any specific type of armor in order to tank in ESO. Changing the current passives to make Heavy Armor that much more "tanky" is just further desiring ESO to be like every other MMO out there.

Your comment about Medium Armor is accurate IF Stamina-based Weapon abilities weren't sub par to Magicka-based abilities, which they are. If Bow, or Dual Wield were viable right not, you'd see a TON of players running around in Medium Armor, without any care to changing the passives.

alexj4596b14_ESO · June 2014

DeLindsay wrote: »

alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »

See I just don't see what your referring too.

The OP post was vary nicely done.

For heAvy amour you would get 5% crit increase when a taunt is not on your(DPS). Those heavy amour passives are dual aspect one for dps one for tanks. Right now it's just not worth it too tank in heavy amour that is the point. You get grater benefit from upswing light amour over all. In light amour I can tank, and reduce my cost of all my class abilitys, and up my over all damage.

Tank DPS is irrelevant
Tanks spamming class abilities is irrelevant

Taking those 2 into account, Heavy Armor passives right now provide a superior tanking choice over Light Armor. One CAN tank in Light Armor but at a cost of lower mitigation and lower heals on the Tank from the actual Healer in the group. Add increased Health Recovery and lowered Block cost and Heavy Armor is superior in every way to Light Armor from a purely Tanking perspective. His idea of even more DPS passive benefit if you do not have Taunt on your bar is moot at this point in ESO because Stamina-based weapon abilities are horrible and sub par on every level to Magicka-based abilities (which is why everyone is using Light Armor).

Also, once again, there is NO REASON to infer that Tanks should want or have to wear any specific type of armor in order to tank in ESO. Changing the current passives to make Heavy Armor that much more "tanky" is just further desiring ESO to be like every other MMO out there.

Your comment about Medium Armor is accurate IF Stamina-based Weapon abilities weren't sub par to Magicka-based abilities, which they are. If Bow, or Dual Wield were viable right not, you'd see a TON of players running around in Medium Armor, without any care to changing the passives.

Umm im purity sure that that CC is tanks job, add management tanks job, taunting and supporting the group is the tanks job. Now if my cc in heavy amour takes 600 magic too cast and i only have 2k how many times can i help the group before i have nothing too help them with, 3 times maybe 4?

Now another thing is light amour would offer DPS, additional Crit and Spell Penetration. Now if im a dps Light amour for magic is by far the better choice not the only choice but a better choice still need not seeing the reason why they shouldn't see it added into the passives.

DeLindsay · June 2014

alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »

Umm im purity sure that that CC is tanks job, add management tanks job, taunting and supporting the group is the tanks job. Now if my cc in heavy amour takes 600 magic too cast and i only have 2k how many times can i help the group before i have nothing too help them with, 3 times maybe 4?

Now another thing is light amour would offer DPS, additional Crit and Spell Penetration. Now if im a dps Light amour for magic is by far the better choice not the only choice but a better choice still need not seeing the reason why they shouldn't see it added into the passives.

There's no reason whatsoever that with 2K Magicka a tank should be OOM'ing constantly just trying to CC, or Stamina burning just trying to Taunt. Taunt has a long duration, use it once per mob and reapply when it's about to fall off. CC has some amount of duration, you don't need to spam it repeatedly just to tank. AOE tanking in ESO is dodgy at best with no AOE taunt. This is pretty much what makes DK tanks easy mode if for nothing else Dark Talons. You can also further reduce Magicka costs with Glyphs to Jewelry, gain Magicka back with a Glyph to Weapon, and reduce the cost again by going 5-pc Heavy with 2-pc Light which is what most tanks who wear Heavy Armor do. Besides didn't you say you are a Sorc tank? Why aren't you using Dark Conversion to regen Magicka when you have plenty of Stamina?

Light Armor already provides VERY good incentives for Caster DPS, there's no reason to make it even more so by adding even more damage passives.

Medium Armor already provides VERY good incentives for Physical DPS (IF) Stamina-based abilities weren't completely sub par to Magicka-based abilities. What I could see (and would like to see) is a Stamina cost reduction passive in Medium Armor (and Heavy, if no taunt is slotted) so that Bow, Dual Wield, and 2H might be more viable. That one additional passive might actually solve many complaints people have with everyone wearing Light Armor right now in ESO.

alexj4596b14_ESO · June 2014

DeLindsay wrote: »

alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »

Umm im purity sure that that CC is tanks job, add management tanks job, taunting and supporting the group is the tanks job. Now if my cc in heavy amour takes 600 magic too cast and i only have 2k how many times can i help the group before i have nothing too help them with, 3 times maybe 4?

Now another thing is light amour would offer DPS, additional Crit and Spell Penetration. Now if im a dps Light amour for magic is by far the better choice not the only choice but a better choice still need not seeing the reason why they shouldn't see it added into the passives.

There's no reason whatsoever that with 2K Magicka a tank should be OOM'ing constantly just trying to CC, or Stamina burning just trying to Taunt. Taunt has a long duration, use it once per mob and reapply when it's about to fall off. CC has some amount of duration, you don't need to spam it repeatedly just to tank. AOE tanking in ESO is dodgy at best with no AOE taunt. This is pretty much what makes DK tanks easy mode if for nothing else Dark Talons. You can also further reduce Magicka costs with Glyphs to Jewelry, gain Magicka back with a Glyph to Weapon, and reduce the cost again by going 5-pc Heavy with 2-pc Light which is what most tanks who wear Heavy Armor do. Besides didn't you say you are a Sorc tank? Why aren't you using Dark Conversion to regen Magicka when you have plenty of Stamina?

Light Armor already provides VERY good incentives for Caster DPS, there's no reason to make it even more so by adding even more damage passives.

Medium Armor already provides VERY good incentives for Physical DPS (IF) Stamina-based abilities weren't completely sub par to Magicka-based abilities. What I could see (and would like to see) is a Stamina cost reduction passive in Medium Armor (and Heavy, if no taunt is slotted) so that Bow, Dual Wield, and 2H might be more viable. That one additional passive might actually solve many complaints people have with everyone wearing Light Armor right now in ESO.

Scorc tanks don't go stamina heavy they don't need too. And health regin is needed when tanking, my health regin is at 80 and my healer loves it and this is in light amour. If I was in heavy with the effects with cost reduction, and regin I would outright be a better tank because I could achieve high midgation, high health regin, and lower cost over all.

Reduction in cost jewelry dose not have a large enough effect too make a difference. The largest one iv seen is 19 cost reduction x 3 is 57 reduction total too all my skills in heavy amour, it's cost 610-56=553 now assuming the skill hits the target because the CC misses allot. Now my taunt is magic based, I have both but mainly use the magic one. It's not enough. Period end of story.

hauwlynb16_ESO · June 2014

I won't get into the specific passives, but there's one big thing that's a terrible game design mistake in there. Heavy armor shouldn't have varying effect depending on whether you have a taunt equipped or not. That goes against the open ended skill system of that game, and creates quite a lot of problems, one of which being survivability is now tied to tanking in PvE group content.

What if I wanted those survivability passives to solo something? What if I wanted them in PvP? What if I had a method to generate superior threat rendering taunts useless in PvE? In all those situations, I'd have to waste a slot on a taunt I'd never use.

Ragnar_Lodbrok · June 2014

Elder Sorcerers Online would never nerf the godly light armor and staff.

alexj4596b14_ESO · June 2014

hauwlynb16_ESO wrote: »

I won't get into the specific passives, but there's one big thing that's a terrible game design mistake in there. Heavy armor shouldn't have varying effect depending on whether you have a taunt equipped or not. That goes against the open ended skill system of that game, and creates quite a lot of problems, one of which being survivability is now tied to tanking in PvE group content.

What if I wanted those survivability passives to solo something? What if I wanted them in PvP? What if I had a method to generate superior threat rendering taunts useless in PvE? In all those situations, I'd have to waste a slot on a taunt I'd never use.

Which is why I posted about just adding regin and cost reduction for both magic and stamina too the amour. 90% of the player base would love that. If they dropped the damage increase passive and add regin it would achieve exactly what most heavy amour builds need. The amour would end the end only offer midgation and much needed cost reduction. It would not OP any build it would only improve it.

DeLindsay · June 2014

alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »

Scorc tanks don't go stamina heavy they don't need too. And health regin is needed when tanking, my health regin is at 80 and my healer loves it and this is in light amour. If I was in heavy with the effects with cost reduction, and regin I would outright be a better tank because I could achieve high midgation, high health regin, and lower cost over all.

Reduction in cost jewelry dose not have a large enough effect too make a difference. The largest one iv seen is 19 cost reduction x 3 is 57 reduction total too all my skills in heavy amour, it's cost 610-56=553 now assuming the skill hits the target because the CC misses allot. Now my taunt is magic based, I have both but mainly use the magic one. It's not enough. Period end of story.

Alright, so far you and I have had what I consider a cordial debate about Armor Passives and whether they should or shouldn't be changed. In that very response you revealed your hand. It would seem that you don't want the Armor Passives to be tweaked to balance them but so YOU can tank in full Heavy Armor while still having the ability to spam Magicka abilities continuously. This is not how MMO's work. Resource management is supposed to be an issue in all builds. You aren't suppose to be capable of spamming resource costing abilities continuously without OOM'ing or Stam burning (or Endurance/Mana/Focus/etc, or w/e they call it in XYZ MMO).

Right now, today, Heavy Armor is SUPERIOR to Light Armor from a purely Tanking perspective. Light Armor is SUPERIOR to Medium/Heavy for DPS due to the imbalance of Stamina-based abilities vs Magicka-based abilities. Light Armor is SUPERIOR to Heavy Armor for Healing, for obvious reasons. You CAN choose any armor type and still be viable but there will always be a best choice.

DeLindsay · June 2014

Here's my thoughts (IF) ZoS decides to make a balance path for the Armor trees.

Light Armor:

Spell Warding - Reduce the Resist increase by 2% overall (not per item)

Medium Armor:

Athletics - Reduce the Stamina cost of abilities by 1/2% per piece worn

Heavy Armor:

Bracing - Gain 1/2% Magicka & Stamina per hit with 5pcs Heavy worn

What the above would do is slightly reduce the benefit of tanking in 7pc Light since you'd lose about 40 Resists with 7pcs in VR, and would change nothing for DPS/Healing. Medium Armor would gain the ability cost reduction that Light Armor has which could possibly make Bow/Dual Wield/2H viable again. Heavy Armor would gain a small amount of resource regen that would only really effect tanks in an AOE setting (when they need it most) and wouldn't help to make DPS/Healers even more OP. BTW, ZoS is actually looking at the Heavy Armor concept, and to include Ultimate gain while being hit in Heavy Armor.

Those suggestions wouldn't unnecessarily effect players' choice of certain armor types and wouldn't take away player's current OP'ness in 7pc Light Armor with Staff. This is a very small change that's a little more logical than either of the 2 recent suggestions in my opinion.

alexj4596b14_ESO · June 2014

DeLindsay wrote: »

Here's my thoughts (IF) ZoS decides to make a balance path for the Armor trees.

Light Armor:

Spell Warding - Reduce the Resist increase by 2% overall (not per item)

Medium Armor:

Athletics - Reduce the Stamina cost of abilities by 1/2% per piece worn

Heavy Armor:

Bracing - Gain 1/2% Magicka & Stamina per hit with 5pcs Heavy worn

What the above would do is slightly reduce the benefit of tanking in 7pc Light since you'd lose about 40 Resists with 7pcs in VR, and would change nothing for DPS/Healing. Medium Armor would gain the ability cost reduction that Light Armor has which could possibly make Bow/Dual Wield/2H viable again. Heavy Armor would gain a small amount of resource regen that would only really effect tanks in an AOE setting (when they need it most) and wouldn't help to make DPS/Healers even more OP. BTW, ZoS is actually looking at the Heavy Armor concept, and to include Ultimate gain while being hit in Heavy Armor.

Those suggestions wouldn't unnecessarily effect players' choice of certain armor types and wouldn't take away player's current OP'ness in 7pc Light Armor with Staff. This is a very small change that's a little more logical than either of the 2 recent suggestions in my opinion.

Now that is a idea I like that too! But the regin based on hit is really low it's not really a huge change.

Now yah it help my build, any Templar heavy amour build, any NB heavy build and only serve too improve DK tanks as well. Even if the % is a lower return that would be fine it dose not need too be high. Another thing you could is make the reduction/regin side that I want happen only apply 100% too defensive abilities, regin abilities, and taunts. That would make so that dps couldn't be over power but also still get the bounce from the cost and regin reduction/increase but they would only get half of the reduction and cost. .5 of anything is not enough too make a difference for any class cept maybe NB. That is my point regin and reduction I'm cost can apply too any build in the game not just a few. Because the reduction is so generalized it flexible for many different type of builds .

demonlkojipub19_ESO · June 2014

Here are my ideas to make give better reasons to use other armor types:

For medium armor

Dexterity: Change to affect all attacks, increase crit chance by .5% per rank, and add .5% crit damage increase per piece of light armor per rank.

Agility: Add chance to dodge attacks by 7.5% per rank.

Athletics: Add reduce cost of stamina costs of abilities by 1.5% per rank. More extreme, also decrease magica costs of abilities by .5% per rank.

Elude (Evasion Morph): Change to increase dodge chance by 1% per rank instead of continuing to increase the duration.

Shuffle (Evasion Morph): Change snare removal to increased movement speed by 1% per piece of light armor, increasing by 1% per rank instead of increasing duration.

For heavy armor

Resolve: Change to 1.5/3/4.5% damage mitigation per piece of heavy armor when below 50% HP. But judging from how they cant get Undeath to work, reduce damage taken by .5% per piece of heavy armor equipped per rank would probably actually work.

Juggernaut: add Armor penetration/ignore per piece of heavy armor equipped 2% per rank.

Bracing: Add reduce damage from critical strikes by 7.5% per rank.

Rapid Mending: I really hate this one. Change it to a properly named skill for reducing stamina costs of abilities by 1% per piece of heavy armor equipped per rank. With the other damage mitigations, increased healing taken is no longer important. More extreme, also decrease magica costs of abilities by .5% per rank.

Immobile: Increase duration to 15 seconds.

Immobile brute morph: Make the ability increase weapon damage 1% more per rank instead of continuing to increase the armor/spell resist the skill gives.

Unstoppable: Change duration increase to further increased armor starting at 1500, spell resist stays at 1000.

For light armor

Evocation: Add increased spell crit by 3% per 25% of magica lost. More extreme, also decrease stamina costs of ability by .25% per rank.

Prodigy: Add absorb 7.5% of the damage from spells as magica per rank.

Concentration: Add 1% increased damage with spells per piece of light armor equipped per rank.

Annulment: Increase the damage shield value.

All armor skills, make their durations and morphed effects 1/2 of their normal value when a 5 set of the armor they are derived from is not equipped.

There is far more choice involved with this imo and none of the armor sets are flat out bad. All sets need the ability to reduce costs of something to a degree, or else the skill lines like Werewolf and Fighters guild won't be reducible.