Big Design Flaws in Magicka Management and why Pure casters can`t cast for long

Reykice

Turial wrote: »

alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote: »

Arsenic_Touch wrote: »

Gisgo wrote: »

Man if you really think Nightblades have it easier because we can spam heavy attacks (lol?)... well, get a clue, really.
There are only two competitive classes in this game and you are playing one of them.
If you cant manage your magicka with a sorcerer i dont know what to say... but it sounds like a matter of l2p.

Yeah... can't really take him seriously when he uses a NB for his argument.

The NB is doing 700+ dps... the Sorc CS spam does 500.... now do you take it seriously?

EDIT: When the NB gets fixed the gap will be even bigger...

Sounds like a pretty crappy Sorc to me, only 500?

Sounds like you don`t have a Sorc... the 500 DPS is done with 2200 magicka and full spell power rings, you can`t get more... CS does 600 damage per 1.3s cast + whatever the crits add - the time you need to use Equilibrium.

500, that`s it, the test was done on a 200k HP Boss, it includes the execute spam(mage fury).

Here is the link:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=_mT4goRXOJo

If you can do more please show us your video...

Reykice

Gisgo wrote: »

Ah so it turns out NBs are outdamaging sorcerers.
I hope you are posting from the future.

They are... do you people do like no research before you post? Like none at all? There are pictures of 700+ dps NB`s all over, with guides, rotations and so on....

Don`t just follow others and say NB`s suck.... they can do a lot of DPS if they are played right. Staying alive in solo VR content is an issue for some specs, sure. But DPS was never one for NB`s....

McCracken79

I'm a VR4 sorc and i have no problem with magika regen. In fact I can stand in the middle of 4 mobs, 5 each and use two abilities and never run out of Magika. Cast Critical Surge and then hold block when using Pulsar on the destro staff. The only thing you have to worry about, depending on how many enemies, is stamina. It will run out when blocking. Makes sure you use pots if that happens.

With Critical Surge it will regen Magicka after each kill and also gain health as well. I also have the Warlock set that give me over 600 magika regen every minute if it falls below 33%. I only use this on mobs when I am the only one there. It's a life saver. When I am with other players I usually switch to my resto staff and cast Endless Fury and Shards while providing healing with Grand Healing and regen my magicka with heavy attacks for the resto staff.

rhubbert_ESO

I don't think any class should be able to spam... maybe they should nerf DK regen instead of buffing Sorc... I main a sorc btw... I never run out of magicka (20 points in it) but that is because the only magicka spells I use a lot are Critical Surge, Thundering Presence, and Daedric Minefield

Selstad

I have noticed that at times I have magica problems, and I can't sustain the use of my spells for very long before I run dry. I do also however see the damage output we can do at the right circumstances.

Per example here in a public dungeon, using my AoE abilities, not only did I have a constant supply of magica (due to magica being returned when someone was killed by a Destro staff spell) but I also had no problem taking on 10 mobs at the same time. It's 1 on 1 that at times get me if the fight drags on.

I'm not entirely sure where I stand, at one side I wouldn't mind a bigger magica pool or lesser cost on the spells, on the other hand however, there are ways of getting your magica back as well. And I would say that magica potions combined with Dark Exchange is a huge boost to holding magica. Even though at the cost of stamina, it still works very well.

Reykice

bmarkitell wrote: »

I'm a VR4 sorc and i have no problem with magika regen. In fact I can stand in the middle of 4 mobs, 5 each and use two abilities and never run out of Magika. Cast Critical Surge and then hold block when using Pulsar on the destro staff. The only thing you have to worry about, depending on how many enemies, is stamina. It will run out when blocking. Makes sure you use pots if that happens.

With Critical Surge it will regen Magicka after each kill and also gain health as well. I also have the Warlock set that give me over 600 magika regen every minute if it falls below 33%. I only use this on mobs when I am the only one there. It's a life saver. When I am with other players I usually switch to my resto staff and cast Endless Fury and Shards while providing healing with Grand Healing and regen my magicka with heavy attacks for the resto staff.

Try that on a boss... yes you can kill normal NPC`s but if you try that on a boss you will be out of magicka in 10 seconds and dead in 11....

Btw, any class can do that... its the Destro staff skill that gives you magicka when you kill something... so aoe`ing lots of weak mobs works. It doesn`t work on anything with a decent HP pool and it clearly doesn`t work on Dungeon bosses....

Kyosji

I am a VR2 sorc that uses summons. That means when everything is summoned out, I am left with 75% of my magika before I even start fighting. That being said, I've never had much of an issue with magika running out in fights. Only time I have ever had my magika run out was during long boss battles, and that's to be expected as everyones magika runs out during those in a group.

The only time I've ever ran out of magika was when I wasn't paying attention and did stupid things like run through a group of 10 VR1 mobs. That was purely my mistake, and not game mechanics.

I also run with a seducer and a magnus set since I hit VR1. This has helped tremendously.

The only thing I can suggest for op is to go back through your skills and check the passives. The sorc has so many passives that reduce spell costs or increase magika that you really shouldn't be having such a big issue here.

Talmet

alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote: »

The Sorcerer spells cost a lot more magicka to cast compared to DK spells or even NB/Templar ones... this is bad as all classes have access to the same things for Cost Reduction and for Magicka Regen.

Wait wait wait......what? You are a troll right?

you are claiming to play a sorc, and you are also claiming that according to you, "all classes have access to the same things for Cost Reduction and for Magicka Regen."?

Wow....you are either a troll & people bought it...or, you fail at reading your own skills.....

I'll give you a hint. Class skill lines have passives, & you might want to read some of them.

alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote: »

Turial wrote: »

alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote: »

Arsenic_Touch wrote: »

Gisgo wrote: »

Man if you really think Nightblades have it easier because we can spam heavy attacks (lol?)... well, get a clue, really.
There are only two competitive classes in this game and you are playing one of them.
If you cant manage your magicka with a sorcerer i dont know what to say... but it sounds like a matter of l2p.

Yeah... can't really take him seriously when he uses a NB for his argument.

The NB is doing 700+ dps... the Sorc CS spam does 500.... now do you take it seriously?

EDIT: When the NB gets fixed the gap will be even bigger...

Sounds like a pretty crappy Sorc to me, only 500?

Sounds like you don`t have a Sorc... the 500 DPS is done with 2200 magicka and full spell power rings, you can`t get more... CS does 600 damage per 1.3s cast + whatever the crits add - the time you need to use Equilibrium.

500, that`s it, the test was done on a 200k HP Boss, it includes the execute spam(mage fury).

Here is the link:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=_mT4goRXOJo

If you can do more please show us your video...

As for your claim that sorc's suck because you can't get higher than 500 DPS with spamming a single spell.....umm....so, L2 use more than one button? I know this is a shock, but you have 5 skills on your bar...

So maybe, just maybe. like 1 is crystal shard, 2 for equilibrium (why?!?!?), and then...holy crap! you have 3 other slots for skills?!?!?! maybe you could use them for things!!! Maybe instant cast DoT skills that cost magicka and could proc instant cast crystal shard? Nah, that'd never work, just leave the last 3 slots empty and then complain that spamming a single button over and over doesn't make you the highest DPS class in the game...

The Nightblade that does 700 DPS...he's just pressing 1 button spam over and over right? And he's melee, so he can just stand there next to the boss and never have to move out of range, so the percent of the time on the boss for both him (a melee character) and you (a ranged character) is both 100%. So it makes perfect sense to compare straight across.

With your really bad spec/build of doing nothing other than spamming crystal shard that does 500 DPS, you actually only need to have that 700 DPS NB have a percent of the time on the boss of around 70% for your damage dealt to be the same...with the number of boss AoE's that force melee characters to run in and out, you are probably doing more damage than that NB during a boss fight.

Csidron

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

try combining crystal shards with elemental drain and light attacks. i have to do that on my dk to keep up my single target rotation up.

some adjustments might be needed not sure exactly what stats get utilized when using staff

Gisgo

Csidron wrote: »

why would a sorc have to do light/hvy attacks isn't that for melee classes?

Hmmmmm... no?
If it was only for melee classes only melee classes would have light and heavy attacks.

anakaki

alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote: »

Turial wrote: »

alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote: »

Arsenic_Touch wrote: »

Gisgo wrote: »

Man if you really think Nightblades have it easier because we can spam heavy attacks (lol?)... well, get a clue, really.
There are only two competitive classes in this game and you are playing one of them.
If you cant manage your magicka with a sorcerer i dont know what to say... but it sounds like a matter of l2p.

Yeah... can't really take him seriously when he uses a NB for his argument.

The NB is doing 700+ dps... the Sorc CS spam does 500.... now do you take it seriously?

EDIT: When the NB gets fixed the gap will be even bigger...

Sounds like a pretty crappy Sorc to me, only 500?

Sounds like you don`t have a Sorc... the 500 DPS is done with 2200 magicka and full spell power rings, you can`t get more... CS does 600 damage per 1.3s cast + whatever the crits add - the time you need to use Equilibrium.

500, that`s it, the test was done on a 200k HP Boss, it includes the execute spam(mage fury).

Here is the link:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=_mT4goRXOJo

If you can do more please show us your video...

LOL. You use CS only and cry about your damage/regen?

Sorry but, L2P.

kewl

bmarkitell wrote: »

I'm a VR4 sorc and i have no problem with magika regen. In fact I can stand in the middle of 4 mobs, 5 each and use two abilities and never run out of Magika. Cast Critical Surge and then hold block when using Pulsar on the destro staff. The only thing you have to worry about, depending on how many enemies, is stamina. It will run out when blocking. Makes sure you use pots if that happens.

With Critical Surge it will regen Magicka after each kill and also gain health as well. I also have the Warlock set that give me over 600 magika regen every minute if it falls below 33%. I only use this on mobs when I am the only one there. It's a life saver. When I am with other players I usually switch to my resto staff and cast Endless Fury and Shards while providing healing with Grand Healing and regen my magicka with heavy attacks for the resto staff.

@bmarkitell That was helpful, thank you.

Reykice

That video is not me... and its the highest parsing DPS for a Sorc... so yes he can use other skills, but he will do even less dps...

I`m happy a lot of people post here but none has any clue about what they are talking about...

Before you go bash that video please test whatever you think will do more DPS and notice it won`t actually do more...

That is the highest DPS rotation for a sorcerer... yes its simple yes its stupid but that is it.

You get to bash that only if you have a better rotation... otherwise shut it please.

Crystal Fragments costs 420 Magicka at endgame with no reduction, DK spells cost about 140 - 280 Magicka. The DK dot does more total damage compared to Crystal Fragments... while costing 140 Magicka compared to 420. Same can be said for NB`s and Templars...

So please, if you claim you can do it better with a Sorcerer and get better magicka management while doing 500+ dps show us how or shut it... as right now there is no better way, that`s it.

This is why they need to rebalance skill costs...

McCracken79

Try that on a boss... yes you can kill normal NPC`s but if you try that on a boss you will be out of magicka in 10 seconds and dead in 11....

Btw, any class can do that... its the Destro staff skill that gives you magicka when you kill something... so aoe`ing lots of weak mobs works. It doesn`t work on anything with a decent HP pool and it clearly doesn`t work on Dungeon bosses....

[/quote]

That's why I said I only use it on mobs. I have a totally different tactic on bosses.

DenverRalphy

I must be an odd duck, because I've never considered CS to be a spam attack. I've always used it as an Opener/minor-CC.

Nooblet

Crystal shard spam with equilibrium mixed in and light attacks inbetween animations is sorcs top single target dps period. Those saying to use more skills, have no idea about the sorc class.. we have inner light(not even class skill) on both bars... and then there is pretty much nothing worth using for single target that even comes close to just using crystal fragments, until less than 20% then we spam finisher.

Sorc is dead last in single target dps. Anyone who thinks otherwise hasn't done any testing or research.

Unless you want to use a gimmick spec using mines, but that's very situational to be a dps increase.

Nooblet

DenverRalphy wrote: »

I must be an odd duck, because I've never considered CS to be a spam attack. I've always used it as an Opener/minor-CC.

What do you use to dps then... because nothing comes close to crystal fragments.

Nooblet

Don't get me wrong, sorc can spike dps pretty good and have a nice finisher, but their sustained dps is awful compared to others.

Kyosji

Well, if you include pet DPS, I think you may be mistaken. I wish I could find a solid source on pet damage, but all I know is that the higher your max magika, the more damage they do. If you add those into the mix, I'm sure a sorc can do about 700-800 dps just fine.

grizzbi

As a Templar I was surprised that it was difficult to play a pure Tank, based mostly on Stamina. Then I realised that the abilities are balanced to be mixed. I had to get some magicka and use a little the heal skill line to be efficient. There's still some room to make my own build. But all the builds are not equally efficient.

So I suspect that maybe you're supposed to use - at least a little - your pet skill line. And enough CC to get enough time to make your magicka regen valuable. That's if you really have magicka problems of course...Because I see more and more sorcerers. And they seem to deal far enough damage to NOT have to rely on their CC or their pet. But I know that the grass is always greener...

Now DKs just play another game...

Reykice

The melee pet doesn`t survive in melee range in dungeons... and you can`t teach it to dodge attacks.

The ranged one has so little HP that it dies if an enemy NPC walks close to it...

Both pets use up healing and have collision, so you might do more harm than good when your pet gets healed and not your team member or when your pet BLOCKS the other melee and doesn`t let them move freely. Funny thing this, i can walk through my own pet... but other people can`t and get blocked.

So while i agree that pets can maybe add 100 dps and take up 2 slots(mage light eats the 3rd so you are left with 2 spells...) you will never keep them alive in group dungeons and even if they are alive they might actually hurt more than help.

EDIT: Also all that CC thing, yea that works in solo PvE but you can`t CC a boss and ask it to wait so you can regen some magicka....

Sorcs are fine in solo pve, anything is fine there with the right build... but in a group they are dead last.

grizzbi

alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote: »

The melee pet doesn`t survive in melee range in dungeons... and you can`t teach it to dodge attacks.

The ranged one has so little HP that it dies if an enemy NPC walks close to it...

Both pets use up healing and have collision, so you might do more harm than good when your pet gets healed and not your team member or when your pet BLOCKS the other melee and doesn`t let them move freely. Funny thing this, i can walk through my own pet... but other people can`t and get blocked.

So while i agree that pets can maybe add 100 dps and take up 2 slots(mage light eats the 3rd so you are left with 2 spells...) you will never keep them alive in group dungeons and even if they are alive they might actually hurt more than help.

EDIT: Also all that CC thing, yea that works in solo PvE but you can`t CC a boss and ask it to wait so you can regen some magicka....

Sorcs are fine in solo pve, anything is fine there with the right build... but in a group they are dead last.

These are maybe specific issues with pets in dungeon. They should be addressed for people who want to use them.

But, apart DK, all the classes have their own specific issues in Dungeon. For example, as a Templar, I don't have many CC to help against trash (VR dungeons..). I have to use other skill lines to get that. And I have other issues..I have to adapt myself, using several skill sets.

You should be happy to have several CC: they help a lot, not only in solo pve. You can't overlook both cc and pet.

Kyosji

alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote: »

The melee pet doesn`t survive in melee range in dungeons... and you can`t teach it to dodge attacks.

The ranged one has so little HP that it dies if an enemy NPC walks close to it...

Both pets use up healing and have collision, so you might do more harm than good when your pet gets healed and not your team member or when your pet BLOCKS the other melee and doesn`t let them move freely. Funny thing this, i can walk through my own pet... but other people can`t and get blocked.

So while i agree that pets can maybe add 100 dps and take up 2 slots(mage light eats the 3rd so you are left with 2 spells...) you will never keep them alive in group dungeons and even if they are alive they might actually hurt more than help.

EDIT: Also all that CC thing, yea that works in solo PvE but you can`t CC a boss and ask it to wait so you can regen some magicka....

Sorcs are fine in solo pve, anything is fine there with the right build... but in a group they are dead last.

We weren't talking about grouping with pets, they were saying that with solo mobs, sorcs fail for DPS. I just stated that pets can add 200-300 (Depending on how much Magika you have and how you spec your passives) for solo play. Group play I never use pets, and if I do, I only use my Twilight Matriarch. I use her because she does more damage at ranged, and we don't need another tank pet, especially when the players will out aggro it. For group playing in dungeons and PvP, I use dots and AoE attacks only.

Currently with my build, I always have my Magika at soft cap, my crit % chance is 46%, and my magika regen is also at soft cap. Against a single target is I were to go straight out and use my heavy hitters I do ~700 DPS myself + whatever my pets do. I'm pretty sure they can do between 200-300 dps, but I will have to to some testing on it for a more accurate number. This brings my total DPS to around 900-1000 dps.

I also have a lot of reduction to the cost of spells (Which is ALWAYS better than magika regen in my book), so I am currently able to solo at VR2 (which is my preference in leveling) and attack nonstop. The only time I need a little rest is when I jump or was jumped by a group of 4 or more mobs at a time. Even then, the rest is brief before I'm back at it.

Also, on a personal note, unlike most sorcs, I find the Dark Exchange skill line rather useless in fights. May be ok in group dungeons, but if you ever have something fighting you it isn't worth it no matter which way you morph it. I perfer the drain essence of vampire.

Also, if your a sorc, Charged Atronarch is your friend, especially in higher VRs. And if you have your sorc skilled right, you can use it basically every other battle.

Blackwidow

The ONLY thing I think would be nice is the mana regen after battles be slightly faster.

Normally, by myself, I'm fine. In dungeons, the DK tank is able to recover mana and is good to go a lot faster than my Sorc.

Turial

alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote: »

Turial wrote: »

alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote: »

Arsenic_Touch wrote: »

Gisgo wrote: »

Man if you really think Nightblades have it easier because we can spam heavy attacks (lol?)... well, get a clue, really.
There are only two competitive classes in this game and you are playing one of them.
If you cant manage your magicka with a sorcerer i dont know what to say... but it sounds like a matter of l2p.

Yeah... can't really take him seriously when he uses a NB for his argument.

The NB is doing 700+ dps... the Sorc CS spam does 500.... now do you take it seriously?

EDIT: When the NB gets fixed the gap will be even bigger...

Sounds like a pretty crappy Sorc to me, only 500?

Sounds like you don`t have a Sorc...

Sounds like you do not play on my account, I have a Sorc and they are the OP class of the game and do far more dmg output than a NB, sorry to burst your bubble pal but that's the way it is.

Reykice

Turial wrote: »

alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote: »

Turial wrote: »

alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote: »

Arsenic_Touch wrote: »

Gisgo wrote: »

Man if you really think Nightblades have it easier because we can spam heavy attacks (lol?)... well, get a clue, really.
There are only two competitive classes in this game and you are playing one of them.
If you cant manage your magicka with a sorcerer i dont know what to say... but it sounds like a matter of l2p.

Yeah... can't really take him seriously when he uses a NB for his argument.

The NB is doing 700+ dps... the Sorc CS spam does 500.... now do you take it seriously?

EDIT: When the NB gets fixed the gap will be even bigger...

Sounds like a pretty crappy Sorc to me, only 500?

Sounds like you don`t have a Sorc...

Sounds like you do not play on my account, I have a Sorc and they are the OP class of the game and do far more dmg output than a NB, sorry to burst your bubble pal but that's the way it is.

Show us this magic build of yours that can do 700+ dps on a boss like NB`s/DK`s can do...

Go take out any 20k+ boss with a Ranged Sorc and show us your super duper dps, if you do 700+ then you should make a guide for it, as so far no Sorc does 700.

I brought you proof, numbers and so on... time for you to bring some. If you are on the EU server and post a Sorc build that shows 700+ dps(on the dps meters) during a Veteran boss fight doing Single Target dps... i`ll give you 5000 gold. So please, show us how its done. There are plenty of NB screen shots showing 700+, DK`s i won`t even bother to mention there are vids of them soloing the entire dungeon so yea, they play a different game. But there is no Sorcerer screen shot of a fight lasting 1+ minutes where he does 700+ single target dps. Not one.

So if you can make one let me know and you will get some gold for the effort.

Kyosji

alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote: »

Turial wrote: »

alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote: »

Turial wrote: »

alexandru987eb17_ESO wrote: »

Arsenic_Touch wrote: »

Gisgo wrote: »

Man if you really think Nightblades have it easier because we can spam heavy attacks (lol?)... well, get a clue, really.
There are only two competitive classes in this game and you are playing one of them.
If you cant manage your magicka with a sorcerer i dont know what to say... but it sounds like a matter of l2p.

Yeah... can't really take him seriously when he uses a NB for his argument.

The NB is doing 700+ dps... the Sorc CS spam does 500.... now do you take it seriously?

EDIT: When the NB gets fixed the gap will be even bigger...

Sounds like a pretty crappy Sorc to me, only 500?

Sounds like you don`t have a Sorc...

Sounds like you do not play on my account, I have a Sorc and they are the OP class of the game and do far more dmg output than a NB, sorry to burst your bubble pal but that's the way it is.

Show us this magic build of yours that can do 700+ dps on a boss like NB`s/DK`s can do...

Go take out any 20k+ boss with a Ranged Sorc and show us your super duper dps, if you do 700+ then you should make a guide for it, as so far no Sorc does 700.

I brought you proof, numbers and so on... time for you to bring some. If you are on the EU server and post a Sorc build that shows 700+ dps(on the dps meters) during a Veteran boss fight doing Single Target dps... i`ll give you 5000 gold. So please, show us how its done. There are plenty of NB screen shots showing 700+, DK`s i won`t even bother to mention there are vids of them soloing the entire dungeon so yea, they play a different game. But there is no Sorcerer screen shot of a fight lasting 1+ minutes where he does 700+ single target dps. Not one.

So if you can make one let me know and you will get some gold for the effort.

Too bad you're on EU server, I'd love to take that bet on =D I've gotten my sorc to do 700+ dps even without my pets.

Blackwidow

Kyosji wrote: »

Too bad you're on EU server, I'd love to take that bet on =D I've gotten my sorc to do 700+ dps even without my pets.

It's called a video.

Kyosji

True, but I'm not going to buy or download software just to appease you. I could send screen caps if that makes you happy. I'll do it tonight while I am in Cyrodiil, of that is a good area for you. All mobs are level 50 there.

Reykice

Kyosji wrote: »

True, but I'm not going to buy or download software just to appease you. I could send screen caps if that makes you happy. I'll do it tonight while I am in Cyrodiil, of that is a good area for you. All mobs are level 50 there.

If they have 20-30k sure... you do more on them as bosses have extra magic resistance but 700+ on a normal boss of any kind is nice enough and would be lovely to see.

Just don`t give us screen shots of low hp mobs, as the DPS meters don`t count until you have actually damaged the NPC, so if you 2-3-4-5 shot it they will show a much larger dps than the one you actually did, as the first cast+light attack won`t be counted as time, but they will count as dps. It also helps if the NPC is of roughly the same level as you, not 4+ levels below.

Looking forward to see it, it would be the first of its kind and i`m fairly sure it will be reposted a lot. So GZ!