Are we the bad guys?

jesterstear

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToKcmnrE5oY

I'm only dimly aware of the lore in this game, but it does seem us Altmer have a tendency to "naughtiness" to say the very least.

First, those horrible racial supremacists in the veiled heritance are EVERYWHERE and seem to have quite a lot of support.

Second, knowledge that by the time of the Skyrim game, they appear to be in control. For all our and the queen's efforts, in the end, evil takes over.

Third were the apocalyptic visions of the moonhenge champion's walk (or whatever that main story quest of Reaper's march is called). The Khajiit retreat into the desert... a desertion, but they are right on the front line, only a little bit "wrong".

The Bosmer all turn into feral vamps/werewolves.... not really their fault that they live in an incredibly dangerous woodland controlled by a psychotic tree spirit and the whole area is bursting with lycanthropy.

What was really shocking was that the Altmer would choose to fight and go to civil war so they could have their splendid apartheid (or worse) reigime even as Pact and Covenant invasion forces prepare to land on their islands. No, rather than prepare to fight off these invaders, it's more important we can overthrow our Queen and have a last *** of ethnic cleansing and genocide , offering little or no organised resistance to the other factions.

I've not played the other factions... but do any of the others have anything like the number of bad guy credentials?

Lord_Hev

The Bretons and Redguards have history of REPEATEDLY trying to commit all-out genocide on the Orcs... Then they use them for their alliance with false promises... The next era, after Tiber Septim... They team up AGAIN to try and exterminate the Orcs.


The Dunmer once again, in the Third Era return to enslaving the Argonians.


The Nords have Falmer blood on their hands.


The Imperials have Ayleid blood on their hands.


The Redguards have Left-handed Elven blood on their hands.




When did the Altmer commit atrocities again? Oh yeah, that one time in the 4th era way in the future, after humanity continued to *** them off with their blood-thirsty conquering ambitions, breaking of Daedric barriers numerous times, and otherwise utter inability to keep things under control... All the while making EVERY other province succumb to Daedric invasions, twice. Finally, after Mehrunes Dagon destroyed the very last thing that kept the Altmer intact(Crystal Tower) is when the Altmer finally lose their Guar-dung, and the extremists take control.


Out of all the Alliances, Ayrenn speaks the truest, with pure genuine. The rest all have an agenda. Especially High King Emeric. She may have some naive expectations, but her will is genuine. Not a cover-up for conquering(Daggerfall Covenant) or selfishness.(Ebonheart Pact) She's an idealist. So obviously, in retrospect, we know she fails because her goals are too ideal.

jesterstear

Thanks for the info. The bit I see of King Emeric in "messages across Tamriel" he comes across as very likeable, but Ayrenn despite appearing the youngest, is clearly the most level headed.

Surinen

no, Altmer are not the bad guys. the horrid one is this so called 'queen ayrenn', an idiot of lorkhanic proportions. noble and just Altmer got dilluted in ESO to horrible levels. we do not see glorious eugenics infanticide nor beautiful pogroms of impure ones. there is even a gold skinned female homosexual who's very existence stands against the majestic selective breeding and superior techniques of rising offspring. magnitude of an ill traits smuggled into Alinor is ginormous.
Ayrenn imbecile stands against hallowed racism and oppression of lesser races.
What is worse, Veiled Heritance is posed as a group of daedric worshippers. unspeakable and vile is what happend to them.
Ayrenn wish to warp the mythic of 'her' people and turn them into inferior Mer.
She is the abomination who stands against the proper ethical values of Sumurset.
May the infinite in their wisdom and reflection Thalmor stop her before it is too late. After all they are the ones who allowed this filthy cur to rule.

Remember, it is wise and graceful to put down MAN and lesser mer, for every cattle longs for its slaughterhouse.

Shiaxi

Lord_Hev wrote: »

The Nords have Falmer blood on their hands.


The Imperials have Ayleid blood on their hands.

well.. in all fairness the falmer started it with the razing of Saarthal slaughtering everyone but Ysgrammor

and the Ayleids brutally enslaved the.. I suppose proto imperials?

jesterstear

Now that i'm doing VR content I'm seeing the sins of the Pact first hand.

Slavery - check.

It also seems the Covenant is invading everyone in sight.

Also, the Dominion frowns upon the use of dark magic, but it seems the solution to every military situation in the Pact/Covenant war is to raise an Army of undead or summon some Daedra. What could possibly go wrong with that eh?

ShedsHisTail

One more reason it's good to be an Argonian.

Lorgren_Benirus

Lord_Hev wrote: »

The Bretons and Redguards have history of REPEATEDLY trying to commit all-out genocide on the Orcs... Then they use them for their alliance with false promises... The next era, after Tiber Septim... They team up AGAIN to try and exterminate the Orcs.

The Dunmer once again, in the Third Era return to enslaving the Argonians.

The Nords have Falmer blood on their hands.

The Imperials have Ayleid blood on their hands.

The Redguards have Left-handed Elven blood on their hands.

Yeah you really should get some things straight first. Orcs are not some poor kids who are always suffering, orcs themselves attack others quite often but usually end up kicked in their collective butts because orcs are a collection of tribes while those they attack are one big kingdom, if not more. So really, neither bretons or redguards are some good Samaritans but so aren't the orcs.

Dunmer have been enslaving argonians, yes. And argonians have been killing dunmer. Going both ways although dunmer have had mostly the upper hand.

Nords don't exactly have the snow elf "blood on their hands". It was the snow elves who killed off almost all the nords first, so nords just retaliated with the same thing and were successful.

Imperials and ayleid blood on their hands? Hardly, first of all no-one ever misses ayleids as they conquered everyone they could and enslaved all. Second, it were the slaves who rebelled against ayleids and among them were a lot of different races, not just imperials. A lot of slaves were imperials, sure, due to the most ayleids being in same area as they were but all in all, slaves came in all sizes and shapes and races. And if anything, everyone is grateful that they're gone so that's hardly a valid point.

As for the good guys or bad guys, then there's no single point of view. What's good to one is bad for another. And the Thalmor in Skyrim are a totally different collection, just has the same name. As for Thalmor in ESO then they have their own share of racists and *** so they're not so different from any other race out there. So Aldmeri Dominion is not worse, neither better then either other side.

As for leaders.. No matter what words they use or how pretty they paint their pictures, they all want the same thing, power. And in the end all of them would be crappy rulers anyway and not rule for long.

Nazon_Katts

True greatness witnessed from below always will be perceived as somewhat arrogant.

Woolenthreads

jesterstear wrote: »

Now that i'm doing VR content I'm seeing the sins of the Pact first hand.

Slavery - check.

It also seems the Covenant is invading everyone in sight.

Also, the Dominion frowns upon the use of dark magic, but it seems the solution to every military situation in the Pact/Covenant war is to raise an Army of undead or summon some Daedra. What could possibly go wrong with that eh?

No, the EP leadership seem to think that's the solution. The DC crew don't do that within their boundaries, their enemies summon undead against them. Similarly the Veiled Inheritance think it's an appropriate solution. As for Altmer's, they have consistently believed they are superior through out the entire ES history, despite a lack of evidence to support it.

Hypertionb14_ESO

I have to agree that while the queen is a bit Naive, she is the most honest of the 3 leaders.

she is a bit colored as a altmer tho, with her manifesto even noting her wanting to "guide" the other races.

they all have their flaws tho...

Surinen

Woolenthreads wrote: »

As for Altmer's, they have consistently believed they are superior through out the entire ES history, despite a lack of evidence to support it.

Do you mean lack of evidence like; language, laws, magick, navy, culture, civilisation? If anything then Altmer demonstrate their superiority every time they appear.

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

I have to agree that while the queen is a bit Naive, she is the most honest of the 3 leaders.

she is a bit colored as a altmer tho, with her manifesto even noting her wanting to "guide" the other races.

they all have their flaws tho...

ayrenn is a total idiot. she has as much do to with an altmer as I do with peasantry.

correct answer: nothing

indytims_ESO

Surinen wrote: »

ayrenn is a total idiot. she has as much do to with an altmer as I do with peasantry.

correct answer: nothing

Scandalous lies. You sound like a Veiled Heritance propaganda-monger.

But Ayrenn's true followers can see right through it.

Lettigall

Altmer and Ayrenn fans clearly haven't played on EP side. Ayrenn ordered to kill argonian hatchlings. Killing unborn feels somehow evil certainly more evil then rising dead to fight enemy soldier.

Surinen

indytims_ESO wrote: »

Scandalous lies. You sound like a Veiled Heritance propaganda-monger.

But Ayrenn's true followers can see right through it.

veiled heritance is a band of heretics. I'm a loyal Thalmor supporter.

Lettigall wrote: »

Altmer and Ayrenn fans clearly haven't played on EP side. Ayrenn ordered to kill argonian hatchlings. Killing unborn feels somehow evil certainly more evil then rising dead to fight enemy soldier.

so there is something that she is good at. now, she should introduce racial segregation, indoctrinate lesser races and purge high ranks. well, but still, it is unthinkable that an Altmer would have such primitive, regressive ideas like 'stop racism and bigotry'.

nothing wrong about killing beasts.

Lettigall

Surinen wrote: »

indytims_ESO wrote: »

Scandalous lies. You sound like a Veiled Heritance propaganda-monger.

But Ayrenn's true followers can see right through it.

veiled heritance is a band of heretics. I'm a loyal Thalmor supporter.

Lettigall wrote: »

Altmer and Ayrenn fans clearly haven't played on EP side. Ayrenn ordered to kill argonian hatchlings. Killing unborn feels somehow evil certainly more evil then rising dead to fight enemy soldier.

so there is something that she is good at. now, she should introduce racial segregation, indoctrinate lesser races and purge high ranks. well, but still, it is unthinkable that an Altmer would have such primitive, regressive ideas like 'stop racism and bigotry'.

nothing wrong about killing beasts.

By the logic of altmer rest of races are lower then them so they can destroy or enslave them so they don't stand in their way to divinity.

So bad guys from AD who almost destroyed Nirn: Manimarco, Mankar Camoran(dude who opened oblivion gates), Ancano(tried to "delete" other races from mundus) and of course Ayrenn(tried do kill half a generation of Argonians). And what common thing between them? Well they all are altmer.

All races in ES aren't saint and are doing bad things, but altmer stands out as more "evil." They produced more bad guys and their plans included bigger body piles.

Surinen

Lettigall wrote: »

By the logic of altmer rest of races are lower then them so they can destroy or enslave them so they don't stand in their way to divinity.

So bad guys from AD who almost destroyed Nirn: Manimarco, Mankar Camoran(dude who opened oblivion gates), Ancano(tried to "delete" other races from mundus) and of course Ayrenn(tried do kill half a generation of Argonians). And what common thing between them? Well they all are altmer.

All races in ES aren't saint and are doing bad things, but altmer stands out as more "evil." They produced more bad guys and their plans included bigger body piles.

That is correct. they are lower.

mannimarco, mankar and ayrenn are nothing more than heretics, gold skinned abominations that should be put down. I would never call them "Altmer". they stand against Altmer values, goals and purity. daedric worshippers and one leveler idiot of a lady: ayrenn. can't wait to see this cur die. hopefully it will be one of the Altmer who kill her.

but yes, Ancano is a noble Mer.

there is nothing wrong about slaughtering the cattle. the 'evil' guys are the ones who try to bind them (Altmer) in the Mundus, imprison and torture with time and mortality! think of it, whole of Nirn, ridden with pestilence, vermin who wish to oppress you, stop from greatness.

lesser races are truest of monsters!

Dekkameron

Surinen wrote: »

ayrenn is a total idiot.

How dare you!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T06_-o-cm7U

zhevon

Lord_Hev wrote: »

The Nords have Falmer blood on their hands.


The Imperials have Ayleid blood on their hands.

Yes - but the Ayleids had a long history of enslaving/torturing humans. Granted the anti-ayleid went overboard and went after the human-supporting ayleids - as well.

Yes - but the Nords were massacred en-masse initially (mainly to get at some dubious magical artifact).

Also, the Dwemer really gave the Falmer the death blow with their treacherous behavour.

[edit : one of the more depressing things about running around in the 2nd era is you know that no matter what happens bad <stuff> is still going to happen]

Surinen

Dekkameron wrote: »

Surinen wrote: »

ayrenn is a total idiot.

How dare you!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T06_-o-cm7U

ayrenn ayrenn whos skin is pink
and face wide as if made out of brick
ayrenn ayrenn treat her with stick
for she is an altmer queen who is not even a mage
but a lowly, stinky and impure piece of wench!

now I feel very young, very much indeed. such beautiful rhymes!

Lettigall

Surinen wrote: »

mannimarco, mankar and ayrenn are nothing more than heretics, gold skinned abominations that should be put down. I would never call them "Altmer". they stand against Altmer values, goals and purity. daedric worshippers and one leveler idiot of a lady: ayrenn. can't wait to see this cur die. hopefully it will be one of the Altmer who kill her.

but yes, Ancano is a noble Mer.

there is nothing wrong about slaughtering the cattle. the 'evil' guys are the ones who try to bind them (Altmer) in the Mundus, imprison and torture with time and mortality! think of it, whole of Nirn, ridden with pestilence, vermin who wish to oppress you, stop from greatness.

lesser races are truest of monsters!

But still only human(nord/imperial?) Tiber Septim achieved divinity not "chosen" altmer HA!!!

Surinen

Lettigall wrote: »

But still only human(nord/imperial?) Tiber Septim achieved divinity not "chosen" altmer HA!!!

his 'divinity' is of a vile stock. bred to disgust.
this is not what Altmer want. there is only one dream worth dreaming!

Tannakaobi

Yes you are the baddies!

In the same way that losers will always be remembered that way.

Tyr

Lord_Hev wrote: »

The Bretons and Redguards have history of REPEATEDLY trying to commit all-out genocide on the Orcs... Then they use them for their alliance with false promises... The next era, after Tiber Septim... They team up AGAIN to try and exterminate the Orcs.


The Dunmer once again, in the Third Era return to enslaving the Argonians.


The Nords have Falmer blood on their hands.


The Imperials have Ayleid blood on their hands.


The Redguards have Left-handed Elven blood on their hands.




When did the Altmer commit atrocities again? Oh yeah, that one time in the 4th era way in the future, after humanity continued to *** them off with their blood-thirsty conquering ambitions, breaking of Daedric barriers numerous times, and otherwise utter inability to keep things under control... All the while making EVERY other province succumb to Daedric invasions, twice. Finally, after Mehrunes Dagon destroyed the very last thing that kept the Altmer intact(Crystal Tower) is when the Altmer finally lose their Guar-dung, and the extremists take control.


Out of all the Alliances, Ayrenn speaks the truest, with pure genuine. The rest all have an agenda. Especially High King Emeric. She may have some naive expectations, but her will is genuine. Not a cover-up for conquering(Daggerfall Covenant) or selfishness.(Ebonheart Pact) She's an idealist. So obviously, in retrospect, we know she fails because her goals are too ideal.

How do the Nords have Falmer blood on their hands?

Neither the Nords nor the Falmer existed until the Snow-Elves tried to exterminate the atmorans.
The Atmorans beet them back resulting in the Nords in Skyrim and the Falmer under dunmer subjugation.
They were literally fighting back against genocide, and though they are largely racist against the mer and beast, they never committed any atrocities.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

Tl:dr version: No race or faction is perfectly good or noble. Likewise no race or faction is completely unredeemable or evil. Individuals yes; groups no.

And @Tyr: You mean under Dwemer subjugation not Dunmer I believe.

Orchish

As an Orc, it's not High Elf skulls i want to bash in with my mace, but rather my own allies the Bretons and Redguards. Treacherous filth!

gurluasb16_ESO

@Tyr The Falmer welcomed the Atmoran. But when the Atmorans started encroaching on Falmer territory and breeding out of control, extremist Falmer attacked Saarthal. In Return...The Atmorans killed almost every man, woman and child. Even innocents who wanted to share the land with the Atmorans.

jesterstear

Good grief, what a thread I started so long ago. I'm VR5 now and have finished the Ebonheart campaign.

I am no longer worried that the Domion might be "the bad guys" out of the 3 alliances , that is settled. However, it does appear that it's more a case of "Elves = Evil, Men = Good". The Altmer have Xenophobes and strong Isolationist tendencies, but at least they're not into slavery, unlike the Dunmer. The Heritance is not so much about enslaving other races or conquering their lands, rather just booting them out of Altmer lands and keeping everything ethnically "pure". And of course securing power for Lady Estre, that is in fact the most important thing.

The Dunmer, as well as keeping slaves, appear less scrupulous than the Altmer about dark magic/daedric summoning/necromancy, than the Dunmer , for whom it's a valid military tactic.

The Bosmer I suppose, don't appear to be racist or inherently evil in any way. They are prone to feral behaviour and cannibalism though.

apostate9

Surinen wrote: »

no, Altmer are not the bad guys. the horrid one is this so called 'queen ayrenn', an idiot of lorkhanic proportions. noble and just Altmer got dilluted in ESO to horrible levels. we do not see glorious eugenics infanticide nor beautiful pogroms of impure ones. there is even a gold skinned female homosexual who's very existence stands against the majestic selective breeding and superior techniques of rising offspring. magnitude of an ill traits smuggled into Alinor is ginormous.
Ayrenn imbecile stands against hallowed racism and oppression of lesser races.
What is worse, Veiled Heritance is posed as a group of daedric worshippers. unspeakable and vile is what happend to them.
Ayrenn wish to warp the mythic of 'her' people and turn them into inferior Mer.
She is the abomination who stands against the proper ethical values of Sumurset.
May the infinite in their wisdom and reflection Thalmor stop her before it is too late. After all they are the ones who allowed this filthy cur to rule.

Remember, it is wise and graceful to put down MAN and lesser mer, for every cattle longs for its slaughterhouse.

So...yes.

:-)

moXrox

When I read the following: "The Choosen People of Aldmeris"

It reminds me on the Jewish Religion at first.

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/The_Chosen_People_of_Aldmeris

About Supremacy in the games:
White supremacy, racism and ideas of a master race were spread in several nations since the 19th century. Google for "de Gobineau"


There was a big discussion about the individual faction background in comparison with history in the Elder Scrolls forums (Skyrim & Co), I think i did read parts of it has to do with some insurgencies in the UK. Cant remember, but at the end all of the factions were looking for domination and conquer others.

Found something about Skyrim only (Stormcloaks):

Empires vs Stormcloaks is probably loosely based around the russian revolution and the irish 1916 rising/irish civil war.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Civil_War

Some parts of it reminds on the Skyrim Story


* wish for an Irish Free State to gain independancy from the Empire
* aim to end British Rule in Ireland
* Nationalists
* Anglo - Irish Treaty with superior law, which was the main reason for the civil war
* two combatants in the civil war: Free State Army + National Army
* the name "Brotherhood"

Dekkameron

I love Queen Ayrenn as much as the next Elf, but she does have some dubious views...




If she doesn't want non-mer to become Emperor, stop recruiting them then!