inb4- "DK's are fine"

Eylith

Yes, this is -i guess- the standart group build (I was previsously talking about roaming). But in this case with this build, DK will not do a lot of dommage, they will just make sure you don't get away for their mates can pick up the kills. Have you tried to kite DKs ? More easier to say than to do, I know..

TheBull

Eylith wrote: »

Yes, this is -i guess- the standart group build (I was previsously talking about roaming). But in this case with this build, DK will not do a lot of dommage, they will just make sure you don't get away for their mates can pick up the kills.

1. Have you tried to kite DKs ? More easier to say than to do, I know..

This is a territory conquer game. 10+ people having to kite one is not a viable strat.

Eylith

The only viable strat is the one who killed your opponents.

traitorr

You tussled with Empress Fixate, 200% all stats and ulti gains does wonders. There are far more important bugs that need fixing in pvp.

Bergs

traitorr wrote: »

You tussled with Empress Fixate, 200% all stats and ulti gains does wonders. There are far more important bugs that need fixing in pvp.

I actually disagree at this point. Vamps made PvP annoying and DK standard spam is just about on its level. Balance is vital to the longevity of PvP.

The only thing more important than balancing DK at this point is fixing the lag imo.

Attorneyatlawl

TheBull wrote: »

Samething they said about bats.

Which was another overblown "issue", which resulted in a huge overnerf to vampires to placate the crowd whining, because let's face it, they didn't want to take any responsibility for standing in the fire. Devouring Swarm had a stacking issue that shouldn't have been there but was otherwise completely fine. DK Standard is fine too, but people will probably just complain loudly until it gets nerfed, then move onto the next thing to complain about that they die to next, in a never-ending cycle. It's easier than to actually try to play better, for some, I guess?

Infraction wrote: »

I don't know how many times ive dodge rolled away only to have a DK shield charge me and throw another talons down or rolled away only for them to take a step forward and repeat the process. Plus the "good" ones know they can build enough ultimate shield charging into groups that they can throw multiple standards down.

Its tough being able to regen the amount of stamina and health that they can while maintaining the ability to block at a 360 degree angle.

Yeah, if they charged you then that's 10 other people they couldn't. Any decent group is going to just dodgeroll backwards (so that you end up in different spots) and range the DK down within seconds before he can really do much but stagger towards one of you as he dies.

I'm sure this is a pointless plea, but come on people... learn the game, don't ask for it to be dumbed down because you don't want to do so. I mean even PVE teaches you not to stand in fire .

Bergs wrote: »

traitorr wrote: »

You tussled with Empress Fixate, 200% all stats and ulti gains does wonders. There are far more important bugs that need fixing in pvp.

I actually disagree at this point. Vamps made PvP annoying and DK standard spam is just about on its level. Balance is vital to the longevity of PvP.

The only thing more important than balancing DK at this point is fixing the lag imo.

Because an Emperor is a good player and able to do what it's designed to do with the Emperor buffs, you think that nerfing the guy's class is the right answer? Yeah........ about that... Emperors are supposed to be a force on the field.

babanovac

Banner in itself is not that OP tbh. The damage of one banner is not that high, and the other bonuses are consistent with what an ultimate should be.

The problem comes when people drop 2-3 banners in the same spot. When this happens victory goes to however has more banners down.

IMHO the best fixes would be for banners to not stack - get the damage from only one of them, ever if there are 3 near you.

Also, ultimate damage should not build ultimates - and this should apply to all ultis, not just banner.

PS: OP, you played terribly in that video. A simple dodge rolled would have made those 2 banners useless.

NordJitsu

Welcome to Dragon Knights Online.

Told you so ZOS. Throughout the Beta process, over and over and over.

I don't want them to over-nerf the class but there either needs to be some major wide scale buffs to the other classes (especially Templar) or some tweaks to DK.

@Attorneyatlawl‌

"Range the DK" sounds nice except for that little "Reflective Scales" thing.

Attorneyatlawl

babanovac wrote: »

Banner in itself is not that OP tbh. The damage of one banner is not that high, and the other bonuses are consistent with what an ultimate should be.

The problem comes when people drop 2-3 banners in the same spot. When this happens victory goes to however has more banners down.

IMHO the best fixes would be for banners to not stack - get the damage from only one of them, ever if there are 3 near you.

Also, ultimate damage should not build ultimates - and this should apply to all ultis, not just banner.

PS: OP, you played terribly in that video. A simple dodge rolled would have made those 2 banners useless.

Ultimate damage does not build ultimate; this was changed awhile back. The rest of your post isn't necessarily anything I disagree with at all, though obviously the person they were fighting was an Emperor and thus isn't fair whatsoever to judge an entire class against . It always does indeed interest me though as to how it's easier to come to the forums to complain than to simply remember to conserve some stamina in PVP for defensive purposes as the game's designed around.

KoooZ

TheBull wrote: »

ImaginaryDimension wrote: »

TheBull wrote: »

Inb4- "you noob why did you stand next to him?"

Well I got there a little late I figured that with 10+ Allies around me this one guy should go down pretty quickly. I didn't notices all the +>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KssiiRhYII

Yeah, because standing inside a DK's banner is the best possible thing you can do.

Learn the skills of your enemy to be able to defeat your enemy.

I am a DK and here is what my banner does when I drop one.

Standard of Might:
Enemies take 169 flame damage every second and receive 50% less healing for 17 seconds. While on standard of might, player deals 35% more damage and takes 35% less damage.

Placing a banner regenerates 50% hp, 50% magika and 50% stamina (although this stat is not mentioned in the description)

So it's very simple. Move away from them when they place a banner. Not all jump on his face because guess what? The more people that jump on him, the faster he can but another banner down.

Samething they said about bats.

Bats move with the user and banners don't unless morphed and manually replaced. If he is using the available to everyone ultimate reduction and manages more than one banner, move out of the second one.

Bergs

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Because an Emperor is a good player and able to do what it's designed to do with the Emperor buffs, you think that nerfing the guy's class is the right answer? Yeah........ about that... Emperors are supposed to be a force on the field.

I am not talking specifically about the video, but by the way you are hopping on the defensive I am assuming you are a dragon knight...

Seriously anyone arguing that DK are anywhere near balanced right now are either diluted or ***.

I am not advocating they make the class worthless, but it needs some serious tweaking sooner rather than later.

babanovac

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

babanovac wrote: »

Banner in itself is not that OP tbh. The damage of one banner is not that high, and the other bonuses are consistent with what an ultimate should be.

The problem comes when people drop 2-3 banners in the same spot. When this happens victory goes to however has more banners down.

IMHO the best fixes would be for banners to not stack - get the damage from only one of them, ever if there are 3 near you.

Also, ultimate damage should not build ultimates - and this should apply to all ultis, not just banner.

PS: OP, you played terribly in that video. A simple dodge rolled would have made those 2 banners useless.

Ultimate damage does not build ultimate; this was changed awhile back. The rest of your post isn't necessarily anything I disagree with at all, though obviously the person they were fighting was an Emperor and thus isn't fair whatsoever to judge an entire class against . It always does indeed interest me though as to how it's easier to come to the forums to complain than to simply remember to conserve some stamina in PVP for defensive purposes as the game's designed around.

Wow i have no idea how that info slipped away from me - i didn't know ultimates no longer build ultis.

Saving stamina would have saved him in this particular situation indeed. But i don;t think most people's complaints are caused by situations like this one. IMO people are sick of being chain rooted - when fighting multiple DKs that are part of organized groups, at some point you will simply don't have enough stamina to dodge roll. Not to mention that dodge roll doesn't always trigger, because of the lag. Or that you can also be stunned on top of being rooted, so you have to break stun and dodge roll. And not to mention that if you are a stamina build, you are royally screwed after breaking all this CC.

So yeah, i agree with the general opinion that banner and soft CC need to be reviewed. The problem is that what will happen, is what always happens in PvP MMOs, no matter which company makes them - the whiners will win and the company will nerf the skills without taking into account the opinions of those using the skills, but instead just taking into account the opinions of those on the receiving end of these skills.

Yes, DK needs some balances, but the OPs video is not one of the scenarios where the DK is OP. It just shows bad gameplay against an emperor that didn't do anything out of the ordinary.

Raggok

Bipolo wrote: »

So yeah, i made a little DK troll-film

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRXkASFc7NM&feature=share&list=PLwUIfedcBjIrKMqZMD-X84wGtK9yL9OSr&index=2

This game has easily had the worst balance issues of any major MMO released that I've played. And, I've played a lot of them.

Raggok

Infraction wrote: »

Eylith wrote: »

Brizz wrote: »

TheBull wrote: »

Inb4- "you noob why did you stand next to him?"

Well I got there a little late I figured that with 10+ Allies around me this one guy should go down pretty quickly. I didn't notices all the +>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KssiiRhYII

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO wrote: »

Dk have no mobility, short range spells and no execute while every other class gets an execute.

Anyone can get a gap closer via 1 Hand and Shield (Shield Charge) or 2 handed (critical charge). They can also get an execute if they were to use a 2 handed weapon (reverse slash), but why would they need to?

They can LolTalons you over and over, put up searing strike and hold block all day to kill anyone. Add an ultimate - (spammable that does incredible damage+player damage+player reduced damage taken) AND an INSTANT heal that gives you stamina regen as well as half your missing HP.

I vote that ZOS listens to this guy - Give DKs a gap closer and execute, then remove BrokenTalons, Standard of Skill and Dragon Blood.

Your attempts to defend your class are pitiful.

You don't even know what you're talking about. If heavy armor/medium armor, talon cost ~1/4 magika bar, and if you spam it, you can't use Dragon Blood -wich give 30% of the missing health, not 50%. Plus, you can escape the flag ultimate with ONE DODGE ROLL.

Truth is, you're not good at PvP. L2P.

I don't know how many times ive dodge rolled away only to have a DK shield charge me and throw another talons down or rolled away only for them to take a step forward and repeat the process. Plus the "good" ones know they can build enough ultimate shield charging into groups that they can throw multiple standards down.

Its tough being able to regen the amount of stamina and health that they can while maintaining the ability to block at a 360 degree angle.

Of course they say that all you need to do is dodge roll. However, with dark talon spamming it typically takes two dodge rolls to get out of the field if you are near the standard drop and then you get the fun of fighting without any stamina to either break CC or block.

Horrible game design. And, no wonder you have some of this obviously broken stuff in the game with some of the PTS players telling the developers that it's all fine.

Armitas

You DK's need to wake up from your OP euphoria and stop defending this kind of game play. Stop with the glib excuses, such as "just roll out of it" as if Talons won't be spammed, or "just hit Maneuver" as if it doesn't cost 800 stamina and expires if you attack.

Just stop defending it. It is embarrassing to watch. The talon/banner spamming needs to be stopped. Accept it, give it to the devs, and let the chips fall where they may.

Sincerely a fellow DK.

dahl.lucas_ESO

Raggok wrote: »

Bipolo wrote: »

So yeah, i made a little DK troll-film

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRXkASFc7NM&feature=share&list=PLwUIfedcBjIrKMqZMD-X84wGtK9yL9OSr&index=2

This game has easily had the worst balance issues of any major MMO released that I've played. And, I've played a lot of them.

You obviously never played AO then, or even AoC for that matter. This games does need some class balancing, no doubt; but nothing on the level that those games needed on release

Bergs

Armitas wrote: »

You DK's need to wake up from your OP euphoria and stop defending this kind of game play. Stop with the glib excuses, such as "just roll out of it" as if Talons won't be spammed, or "just hit Maneuver" as if it doesn't cost 800 stamina and expires if you attack.

Just stop defending it. It is embarrassing to watch. The talon/banner spamming needs to be stopped. Accept it and let the chips fall where they may.

Sincerely a fellow DK.

Infraction

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

TheBull wrote: »

Samething they said about bats.

Which was another overblown "issue", which resulted in a huge overnerf to vampires to placate the crowd whining, because let's face it, they didn't want to take any responsibility for standing in the fire. Devouring Swarm had a stacking issue that shouldn't have been there but was otherwise completely fine. DK Standard is fine too, but people will probably just complain loudly until it gets nerfed, then move onto the next thing to complain about that they die to next, in a never-ending cycle. It's easier than to actually try to play better, for some, I guess?

Infraction wrote: »

I don't know how many times ive dodge rolled away only to have a DK shield charge me and throw another talons down or rolled away only for them to take a step forward and repeat the process. Plus the "good" ones know they can build enough ultimate shield charging into groups that they can throw multiple standards down.

Its tough being able to regen the amount of stamina and health that they can while maintaining the ability to block at a 360 degree angle.

Yeah, if they charged you then that's 10 other people they couldn't. Any decent group is going to just dodgeroll backwards (so that you end up in different spots) and range the DK down within seconds before he can really do much but stagger towards one of you as he dies.

I'm sure this is a pointless plea, but come on people... learn the game, don't ask for it to be dumbed down because you don't want to do so. I mean even PVE teaches you not to stand in fire .

Bergs wrote: »

traitorr wrote: »

You tussled with Empress Fixate, 200% all stats and ulti gains does wonders. There are far more important bugs that need fixing in pvp.

I actually disagree at this point. Vamps made PvP annoying and DK standard spam is just about on its level. Balance is vital to the longevity of PvP.

The only thing more important than balancing DK at this point is fixing the lag imo.

Because an Emperor is a good player and able to do what it's designed to do with the Emperor buffs, you think that nerfing the guy's class is the right answer? Yeah........ about that... Emperors are supposed to be a force on the field.

This isn't about empower stats. I like the smug l2p though well done. Dodge roll if you get charged does not even take you out of the air rang of the next talons. If your ok with soft cc chains then why not just make hard cc unblock able and call it a day. You can just break free from it so that's balanced.

Raggok

dahl.lucas_ESO wrote: »

Raggok wrote: »

Bipolo wrote: »

So yeah, i made a little DK troll-film

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRXkASFc7NM&feature=share&list=PLwUIfedcBjIrKMqZMD-X84wGtK9yL9OSr&index=2

This game has easily had the worst balance issues of any major MMO released that I've played. And, I've played a lot of them.

You obviously never played AO then, or even AoC for that matter. This games does need some class balancing, no doubt; but nothing on the level that those games needed on release

I played both of them, but not long enough to learn of their worst balance issues. Did either of them have something like stackable spammable batswarms that allowed you to win 1v20+ fights?

Didn't run across anything that bad in my short time playing those games.

JosephChip

Armitas wrote: »

You DK's need to wake up from your OP euphoria and stop defending this kind of game play. Stop with the glib excuses, such as "just roll out of it" as if Talons won't be spammed, or "just hit Maneuver" as if it doesn't cost 800 stamina and expires if you attack.

Just stop defending it. It is embarrassing to watch. The talon/banner spamming needs to be stopped. Accept it, give it to the devs, and let the chips fall where they may.

Sincerely a fellow DK.

To be honest is far more embarassing watching at people cry about abilities they don't fully understand/know how to counter 24/7 on the forums.

Raggok

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

TheBull wrote: »

Samething they said about bats.

Which was another overblown "issue", which resulted in a huge overnerf to vampires to placate the crowd whining, because let's face it, they didn't want to take any responsibility for standing in the fire. Devouring Swarm had a stacking issue that shouldn't have been there but was otherwise completely fine. DK Standard is fine too, but people will probably just complain loudly until it gets nerfed, then move onto the next thing to complain about that they die to next, in a never-ending cycle. It's easier than to actually try to play better, for some, I guess?

With testers and feedback like yours, it's no wonder this game is a cluster**** at the moment.

Anilahation

The day when people are complaining about a soft CC that is applied in an AoE around the caster.

Most games complain about permanent stuns but nope in eso we complain about roots being OP.

Raggok

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO wrote: »

The day when people are complaining about a soft CC that is applied in an AoE around the caster.

Most games complain about permanent stuns but nope in eso we complain about roots being OP.

Considering that hard CCs give you immunity, don't last as long as roots, and cost less to break than dodge rolling out of roots which don't give any immunity is that really a shock?

Roots are the most effective CC in this game, and since they prevent you from turning it allows melee to move behind you and do damage with little risk involved to themselves (other than from AoE). If you could at least turn then you could trade damage with them.

And BTW, roots were also the best CC in GW2. I'm not really sure when developers decided it would be good if you could not turn your character when rooted but, yeah... bad idea. Stop it.

It doesn't take a lot of brainpower to figure out that if someone's damage can only be applied when facing their target then a long duration root is effectively the same thing as a long duration stun and the people that can spam roots get to play the game in easy mode.

Anilahation

Raggok wrote: »

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO wrote: »

The day when people are complaining about a soft CC that is applied in an AoE around the caster.

Most games complain about permanent stuns but nope in eso we complain about roots being OP.

Considering that hard CCs give you immunity, don't last as long as roots, and cost less to break than dodge rolling out of roots which don't give any immunity is that really a shock?

Roots are the most effective CC in this game, and since they prevent you from turning it allows melee to move behind you and do damage with little risk involved to themselves (other than from AoE). If you could at least turn then you could trade damage with them.

And BTW, roots were also the best CC in GW2. I'm not really sure when developers decided it would be good if you could not turn your character when rooted but, yeah... bad idea. Stop it.

It doesn't take a lot of brainpower to figure out that if someone's damage can only be applied when facing their target then a long duration root is effectively the same thing as a long duration stun and the people that can spam roots get to play the game in easy mode.

CC break cost half stamina.

I'm light armor 49 hp and full magicka Enchants and i can roll way more then two times......

Bipolo

Just to be fair...

I have seen Sorc builds that clearly challenge any DK
I have seen Templar builds that could out heal and out last any DK
I have even seen NB's having no trouble controlling the whole fight and taking down a DK

and last
but not least
I have seen DK's wait for the right moment, yell surprise and wipe groups...

You know what they all have in common?
The people playing these characters are not average, they are some of the top PvPers in-game...

The time has come to face the reality of every game: there will always be someone better then you and me. They might have more time to play, they might know something we don't, etc

I'm not commenting here to defend Talon spam as you see in the video i posted above or Bash-pro's. I'm a big supporter of them adding Soft CC immunity, reducing damage on Bashing - NOT QQ'ing so much that they start swinging the nerf bat around.

Balance good > Nerf bad

/fireInTheHole

DontBeAfraid

TheBull wrote: »

Inb4- "you noob why did you stand next to him?"

Well I got there a little late I figured that with 10+ Allies around me this one guy should go down pretty quickly. I didn't notices all the +>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KssiiRhYII

LOL dude. u were standing in 2 standards and u wonder why u die. GOOD JOB - WELL PLAYED! xD

Frenzypanda

This shld definitely go to ESO funniest home videos. Hilarious. I can think of the caption as "omg!we are so going to zerg the dk down, 2 standards? No problem! We are so uber coz we got the numbahs!" Splat! And off to forums he go.

You have plenty of time to leave the circle and you were not cc'ed. So why you no leave the circle!!! Fuuuuuuuuuuuuu~

Ps: I think it will be funnier if the dk morph the mobile standard, carry the standard and chase OP. XD

TheBull

Frenzypanda wrote: »

This shld definitely go to ESO funniest home videos. Hilarious. I can think of the caption as "omg!we are so going to zerg the dk down, 2 standards? No problem! We are so uber coz we got the numbahs!" Splat! And off to forums he go.

You have plenty of time to leave the circle and you were not cc'ed. So why you no leave the circle!!! Fuuuuuuuuuuuuu~

Ps: I think it will be funnier if the dk morph the mobile standard, carry the standard and chase OP. XD

Ok serious question.

Since there was no standard when I engaged, and 2 were dropped on me within 4 secs, how may standards should be able to be dropped and how quickly?

Is dropping 7 banners within 30 secs ok? The video shows 6 banners in 40 secs. Should your ultimate be part of your "rotation". Is this intended? Is this the direction all DKs should go?

Frenzypanda

When the dk dropped the banner, at the same time he is doing some aoe thus generating ulti(not to mention you are not the only one crowding around him). Refer to the sword,shield,neck dominion set it reduces ulti required by 15. So effectively he needs 185 to fire it off. Moreover if the dk is an emperor he got ulti reduction.

popatiberiuoneb18_ESO

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

babanovac wrote: »

Banner in itself is not that OP tbh. The damage of one banner is not that high, and the other bonuses are consistent with what an ultimate should be.

The problem comes when people drop 2-3 banners in the same spot. When this happens victory goes to however has more banners down.

IMHO the best fixes would be for banners to not stack - get the damage from only one of them, ever if there are 3 near you.

Also, ultimate damage should not build ultimates - and this should apply to all ultis, not just banner.

PS: OP, you played terribly in that video. A simple dodge rolled would have made those 2 banners useless.

Ultimate damage does not build ultimate; this was changed awhile back. The rest of your post isn't necessarily anything I disagree with at all, though obviously the person they were fighting was an Emperor and thus isn't fair whatsoever to judge an entire class against . It always does indeed interest me though as to how it's easier to come to the forums to complain than to simply remember to conserve some stamina in PVP for defensive purposes as the game's designed around.

Hmm...not sure when you tested this but yestaday ultimates were stil building ultimate points...There should be NO ULTIMATE GAIN from skills/ultimates while you are affected by your own banner, you already get to many benefits from simply sitting in it, this would prevent people from abusing it in PvE (if anyone cares about that) and from abusing it in Cyrodiil by dropping multiple banners in a small timeframe, all while sitting there tanking 10+ people.