Regarding DK pull-chain Scroll/Keep capping.

Lord_Draevan

As many of you may have noticed, a new tactic has started gaining popularity in Cyrodiil. The tactic consists of players from one faction creating a DK alt in another faction, hitting level 10, going into Cyrodiil and using the pull-chain ability to pull an assault force of their main character's faction over the walls to either cap the Keep, the Scroll there, or both, without having to siege it for a second.
A variation of this tactic involves this alt's main faction picking up the Scroll, letting themselves be killed, then the traitorous alt picks it up and runs it to the enemy faction's keeps. Since they're in the faction of the Scroll they're carrying, they cannot be killed since there's no friendly fire and are therefore unstoppable.
My question to ZOS ( @ZOS_JessicaFolsom or @ZOS_GinaBruno or @ZOS_KaiSchober‌) is this: is this tactic "legal" or not? If not, I'll be sure to report these players whenever I see it, if it is, well then the only way to beat them will be to fight fire with fire.

Mends_from_Shadows

Anything that bypasses every single defense the Developers put in for the scrolls is probably an exploit. That's how I look at it. This tactic has been going around for at least a month now and still ZoS says nothing.

Not to sound like that Lucrades guy who is always bitching about things on this forum, but he is right that Zenimax does not respond to any sort of PvP issue.

Lord_Draevan

Mends_from_Shadows wrote: »

Anything that bypasses every single defense the Developers put in for the scrolls is probably an exploit. That's how I look at it. This tactic has been going around for at least a month now and still ZoS says nothing.

Not to sound like that Lucrades guy who is always bitching about things on this forum, but he is right that Zenimax does not respond to any sort of PvP issue.

I've always got a response whenever I tag the ZOS Admins in the comments, like in the I started thread for the suicide-in-water Scroll capture issue. Hopefully they'll answer this.

thelg

There is only one solution to this, account deletion no questions asked. Ban a hundred or so and people will learn

Dleatherus

it's an exploit, no ifs and or buts

some folks are referring to it as 'creative' gameplay - the only thing creative about that is trying to give an exploit another name

an exploit is using an in game mechanic in a manner not intended - ie. is exploiting the game mechanic

exploiters will usually counter by saying - it's in the game, so they must have intended for it to be used that way - if it was an exploit they would have fixed it in the last patch and a whole myriad of other pathetic excuses

that kind of reasoning is on the level of the 3-5 year old who upon entering a candy store with his mom, sees a bunch of candies on the shelves and starts stuffing his pockets with them 'mommy - why is that they keep calling me a thief every time i put them in my pocket?'

the issue is fixing the exploit, not banning those exploiting the game mechanic, since you will never be able to get rid of those that play mmo's that have the moral comprehension of a 3-5 year old

D.

p.s. i'd dearly like to see exploiters banned - but it usually doesn't happen since in effect, unlike bots and hacks, part of the responsibility lays with them for the game mechanic in the first place

one guy we saw and confronted doing this as he was pulling his other alliance buddies up onto the wall - 'i was roleplaying being a traitor and letting down a rope for the enemies that had paid me well for my services' - best immersion i've seen in the game yet

Lord_Draevan

Well if they want to play it that way, we should be allowed to kill him, imprison him, or kick him out of the faction entirely.

Dleatherus

Lord_Draevan wrote: »

Well if they want to play it that way, we should be allowed to kill him, imprison him, or kick him out of the faction entirely.

i'd like to more than roleplay seeing him swinging at the end of that rope (in game) that he was using

D.

Zanderscotxub17_ESO

I would say with the dark brother hood guild about to be realeased and bounty on players starting in a upcoming patch. I bet you they will implement a traiter system in pvp.

I would like to see a system compromised of players marking other members as traitors. At 100 marks a person becomes open to brotherhood bounty system which mean as long as your marked a traitor you can be killed by any brotherhood member. Now you can also mark as allie counteracting the marks as traitor.

This will lead to controlling real traitors but might lead to guild to guild trolling. Pros and cons

The brotherhood bounty system is coming hopefully it will also deal with pvp taitors and not just good and bad pve choices.

Either way they cannot ban people for working with in the horrible game mechanics. With travel to player anyone can supass the account restrictions on campaign plus ther is even simpler way people can excute this.

They need to
Fix people hoping servers
Fix account with 2 factions in same campaign.
Fix travel to player.

After all the fixing then they can start to deal with traitors. Either through campaign managment with account or a in game mechanics to deal with.

What we need to do is let the idia flow on how to fix this and maybe one will get through to a developer, but this will take time. It might be awhile till we see something I just hope its good.

kellemdros

The problem is that probably if they want to keep people in game they dont have " a while "

Lord_Draevan

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom or @ZOS_GinaBruno or @ZOS_KaiSchober‌

There's other threads detailing this problem as well, for example:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/97092/really

joshisanonymous

Wasn't there already a fix for this that teleported people out from behind the gates if they weren't already open? Or an incoming fix that does something like that?

casselna_ESO

I am SURE ZoS thought of this. How could they not?

In the main base camps, there is a merchant that sells mercenaries. Buy a dozen (they are only 1k each) and litter the walls with them. Then traitors can pull up the enemy faction all day long, but those mages will have a thing or two to say about that abusive tactic.

Seriously, I thought half of you people were serious PvP'ers? This didn't, for half a second, cross your mind?

Lord_Draevan

casselna_ESO wrote: »

I am SURE ZoS thought of this. How could they not?

In the main base camps, there is a merchant that sells mercenaries. Buy a dozen (they are only 1k each) and litter the walls with them. Then traitors can pull up the enemy faction all day long, but those mages will have a thing or two to say about that abusive tactic.

Seriously, I thought half of you people were serious PvP'ers? This didn't, for half a second, cross your mind?

Not sure if you're trolling or simply know nothing about those mercs... they last about 20 minutes before they vanish. I once placed 15 at a Scroll keep, waited for the enemy zerg, about 20 minutes later they were gone. The enemy never made it there, the mercs just vanished. I was standing next to them the whole time.

casselna_ESO

Not sure if you failed reading comprehension...

You don't use them and expect them to last forever. You use them to COUNTER a traitor using chain on enemies in an attempt to bypass walls. If you plant 2 or three of them around the traitor as he's pulling them up, then quickly, those that get pulled up will die.

Why waste them otherwise?

Placed 15 for a non-invasion? Whatever for? That was just...an EXPENSIVE error on your part.

Lord_Draevan

casselna_ESO wrote: »

Not sure if you failed reading comprehension...
You don't use them and expect them to last forever. You use them to COUNTER a traitor using chain on enemies in an attempt to bypass walls. If you plant 2 or three of them around the traitor as he's pulling them up, then quickly, those that get pulled up will die.
Why waste them otherwise?
Placed 15 for a non-invasion? Whatever for? That was just...an EXPENSIVE error on your part.

Not sure if you understand this tactic... the traitor pulls them into an EMPTY keep. There is no one to place mercs or to defend at all. That's the point. They cap the keep without siegeing at all. The traitor checks around, makes sure the keep's empty, THEN pulls them in.
And yes, it was a mistake on my part. I thought they were going to make it to the Temple, but they decided to try to clear the Gate of Chim and were wiped.

Lord_Draevan

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom or @ZOS_GinaBruno or @ZOS_KaiSchober‌
It happened again a few minutes ago on Wabbajack NA server. The Gate of Chim was CLOSED, had been closed for 2 hours, all our 6 home keeps were under EP control, but an EP traitor chain-pulled 15-20 AD over the walls at the Gate of Chim and the AD ran to the Scroll Temple of Chim unopposed. They took the Scroll without incident, and they just ran over through the hole at the top of the Gate and escaped before we even got there. We were able to retrieve the Scroll before they got it to their keeps, but barely.
Surely using a tactic that bypasses all the gameplay features ZOS put in place can't be a "legal" tactic? This is getting ridiculous the way it's being abused now. Please respond.

Igolbug

casselna_ESO wrote: »

Not sure if you failed reading comprehension...

You don't use them and expect them to last forever. You use them to COUNTER a traitor using chain on enemies in an attempt to bypass walls. If you plant 2 or three of them around the traitor as he's pulling them up, then quickly, those that get pulled up will die.

Why waste them otherwise?

Placed 15 for a non-invasion? Whatever for? That was just...an EXPENSIVE error on your part.

If I am there when he is pulling them up then I will just kill them wtf do I need mercs to do that.

Lord_Draevan wrote: »

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom or @ZOS_GinaBruno or @ZOS_KaiSchober‌
It happened again a few minutes ago on Wabbajack NA server. The Gate of Chim was CLOSED, had been closed for 2 hours, all our 6 home keeps were under EP control, but an EP traitor chain-pulled 15-20 AD over the walls at the Gate of Chim and the AD ran to the Scroll Temple of Chim unopposed. They took the Scroll without incident, and they just ran over through the hole at the top of the Gate and escaped before we even got there. We were able to retrieve the Scroll before they got it to their keeps, but barely.
Surely using a tactic that bypasses all the gameplay features ZOS put in place can't be a "legal" tactic? This is getting ridiculous the way it's being abused now. Please respond.

They were not pulling people up, they found a place behind the gate where they could drop a forward camp, and unlike all the forward camps I drop it didn't bug out the second they dropped it.

ForTheRealm

Personally, I think that it would be an interesting feature if devs could think about formally introducing this tactic - a traitor helping enemies. It would make the gameplay more realistic. However, in such a case there should be also a mechanism to punish the traitor, e.g. kill him by his own faction or strip him several levels down ;-)

zmanu

They could implement a warning system whenever an enemy goes through a friendly scroll gate. Just a simple text, similar to the opening of a scroll gate, it could have a 30 minute cooldown so you don't get spammed.

This is the only "fix" I can thing of that would not ruin that many game mechanics, and on top of all, it's realistic even.

Nijjion

Do they buy another account to do this?

Why can you put another character on the same campaign as your main in a different alliance? Though saying that it's only 15000 to change so maybe they change their home server so they can put an alt character on it instead.

Lord_Draevan

Igolbug wrote: »

They were not pulling people up, they found a place behind the gate where they could drop a forward camp, and unlike all the forward camps I drop it didn't bug out the second they dropped it.

But how did they get through the Gate in the first place? It had been closed for 1.5-2 hours, I highly doubt they sat there waiting the whole time.

TheGrandAlliance

Dropping a camp behind a closed gate isn't a exploit... it is simply good timing.

In terms of the pullchain or leap situation... this situation simply has to be resolved one way by preventing vertical pulls from happening.

Hoodster92_ESO

Fun fact people, you cant drop a forward camp inside another factions forward or southern gate..... Unless Zenimax changed this recently.

It's like how you can't put a forward camp up inside a enemies keep.

TheGrandAlliance

Hoodster92_ESO wrote: »

Fun fact people, you cant drop a forward camp inside another factions forward or southern gate..... Unless Zenimax changed this recently.

It's like how you can't put a forward camp up inside a enemies keep.

There is an exploit.. that was metioned somewhere on the ALlinace War tactics forums that somehow players got behind the S morrowind gate (areas yoru not supposed to) and was oiling them from above (the wayshine). This may be an area they are referring to however IDK...

Lord_Draevan

TheGrandAlliance wrote: »

Dropping a camp behind a closed gate isn't a exploit... it is simply good timing.

In terms of the pullchain or leap situation... this situation simply has to be resolved one way by preventing vertical pulls from happening.

Again... how did they get behind the Gate in the first place? It had been closed for about 2 hours.

TheGrandAlliance

If they hid there. However if you are suggesting they pull chained up a completely closed gate then indeed that is a problem.

Alomar

Lord_Draevan wrote: »

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom or @ZOS_GinaBruno or @ZOS_KaiSchober‌
It happened again a few minutes ago on Wabbajack NA server. The Gate of Chim was CLOSED, had been closed for 2 hours, all our 6 home keeps were under EP control, but an EP traitor chain-pulled 15-20 AD over the walls at the Gate of Chim and the AD ran to the Scroll Temple of Chim unopposed. They took the Scroll without incident, and they just ran over through the hole at the top of the Gate and escaped before we even got there. We were able to retrieve the Scroll before they got it to their keeps, but barely.
Surely using a tactic that bypasses all the gameplay features ZOS put in place can't be a "legal" tactic? This is getting ridiculous the way it's being abused now. Please respond.

Lol, while the issue of DK pulling people into keeps for scroll capping is a legitimate exploit discussion, what happened in Wabba last night isn't. We had players in your scroll area putting up forward camps to get back in and steal the scroll.

There was no exploiting of using EP players to chain us up over the gate. Before you scream for ZOS to ban exploiters that weren't exploiting do some research or defend your scrolls better.

BTW, your tears are what keeps us coming back. You ran from Auriel's Bow to a campaign you could dominate, not happening as planned?

Lord_Draevan

TheGrandAlliance wrote: »

If they hid there. However if you are suggesting they pull chained up a completely closed gate then indeed that is a problem.

They waited for 2 hours? I highly doubt that.

TheGrandAlliance

...assuming your words are True of course...

Lord_Draevan

Alomar wrote: »

We had players in your scroll area putting up forward camps to get back in and steal the scroll.

I never denied they used forward camps... don't know why everyone bitching at me about that. My issue is how the AD got through a closed Gate that had been closed for almost 2 hours.

Alomar wrote: »

BTW, your tears are what keeps us coming back. You ran from Auriel's Bow to a campaign you could dominate, not happening as planned?

1) I personally left for Wabbajack back when it was still DC dominated, and 2) EP is winning. How is that "not going as planned"?

Alomar

Lord_Draevan wrote: »

Alomar wrote: »

BTW, your tears are what keeps us coming back. You ran from Auriel's Bow to a campaign you could dominate, not happening as planned?

1) I personally left for Wabbajack back when it was still DC dominated, and 2) EP is winning. How is that "not going as planned"?

Score totals achieved by capping an entire map during off-peak hours isn't anything to brag about. Which is why we had no problem leaving Auriel's Bow, where AD did the same.