ESO Dojo Ep.1: Countering Bolt Escape

NordJitsu

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kfzJ1lNlU4

Enjoy.

Locke_ESO

While this is a nice video I think most peoples frustration with this spell is the "get of jail free" aspect to it rather than it's use in a 1v1 fight. As soon as they have the CC immunity or use it to break LoS most of these solutions are rendered invalid (except the last one).

Kingslayer

jp_antillb16_ESO wrote: »

While this is a nice video I think most peoples frustration with this spell is the "get of jail free" aspect to it rather than it's use in a 1v1 fight. As soon as they have the CC immunity or use it to break LoS most of these solutions are rendered invalid (except the last one).

It isn't most of the population though and there frustration is unwarranted totally. Theres been nothing but ridiculous claims by people on these forums concerning this ability. 35 spams was one thread, hilarious. I've been countered many many times not every sorc will get away in the middle of a fight only 1 or 2 will usually. i've been on my templar seen a sorc start to bolt out of the group of enemies he was in and he made it to the edge of the crowd of us the ability is far from infallible.

NordJitsu

jp_antillb16_ESO wrote: »

While this is a nice video I think most peoples frustration with this spell is the "get of jail free" aspect to it rather than it's use in a 1v1 fight. As soon as they have the CC immunity or use it to break LoS most of these solutions are rendered invalid (except the last one).

Nice thing about these counters is they work even better in group situations.

Bolt Escaping sorcerers rarely get away from my group in PvP.

And when they do, I instruct them not to chase. Because what good does that do you?

RaZaddha

jp_antillb16_ESO wrote: »

While this is a nice video I think most peoples frustration with this spell is the "get of jail free" aspect to it rather than it's use in a 1v1 fight. As soon as they have the CC immunity or use it to break LoS most of these solutions are rendered invalid (except the last one).

This... Just this...

You still haven't showed a hard counter to an escaping BE sorc.

Alandauron

RaZaddha wrote: »

This... Just this...

You still haven't showed a hard counter to an escaping BE sorc.

Did you miss the NB using Path of Darkness? Not only does it allow you to catch the sorc but it will also restore your health while you're chasing.

You're looking for a build that wins all, it SHOULD NOT exist. If ZOS allows you to create a build that can beat every other build then they have seriously messed something up.

This is why they "fixed" Elder Vampires Online. And why they're looking into "fixing" Broken Talons. An "I Win" build is bad for the health of the game.

RaZaddha

Alandauron wrote: »

RaZaddha wrote: »

This... Just this...

You still haven't showed a hard counter to an escaping BE sorc.

Did you miss the NB using Path of Darkness? Not only does it allow you to catch the sorc but it will also restore your health while you're chasing.

You're looking for a build that wins all, it SHOULD NOT exist. If ZOS allows you to create a build that can beat every other build then they have seriously messed something up.

This is why they "fixed" Elder Vampires Online. And why they're looking into "fixing" Broken Talons. An "I Win" build is bad for the health of the game.

Having to become the Usain Bolt of ESO to catch up to a BE is not a hard counter.

Simaya

Just from the beginning of the video where you say you can use talons.. you cant.. you can bolt escape with a root on you and take it with you

NordJitsu

@Simaya‌

In that part of the video my PvP Officer HazTaroth is chaining his Talons with Invasion. You'll notice that being rooted gives you no immunity to stun. By rooting and THEN stunning me, he's able to stop me.

The next option would be shield bash, which he didn't demonstrate (so as not to kill me.) Spamming Bash will prevent me from casting BE (interrupt) while also doing very high DPS.

The same is true of chain pulls and ranged knock downs/knock backs.

sSolutionSs

Path of darkness and Shadow Cloak Will not get a NightBlade outta the fight if pulled into or caught by a zerg group, However Bolt Escape will. Just sayin.

Nox_Aeterna

Ok , i wont talk for other classes , cause i play a templar , but ...

The freaking guy could have escaped anytime , are you joking me?

He literally came back to get hit AGAIN , im amazed.

Next time put a video where the guy is actually trying to run , in ONE direction , not over the templar over and over , and we will see if you can stop him lols.

Here you saw a sorc that wanted to actually fight , not run.

IchAxel

Nice Vid!

Raggok

This entire movie is pointless because the issue is the escapability of the other classes when compared to the sorcerer. Show us movies of a NB, Templar, and DK consistently escaping when they have four or more people on them. Show us how great Cloak and Path of Darkness are for escaping when you have four or more people on you.

And, do it in actual PvP not in some controlled environment with your friends from other factions. If this is the kind of feedback the developers got during testing then no wonder why so many things have needed to be addressed now that the game is live.

NordJitsu

sSolutionSs wrote: »

Path of darkness and Shadow Cloak Will not get a NightBlade outta the fight if pulled into or caught by a zerg group, However Bolt Escape will. Just sayin.

Well they aren't exactly 1 to 1 equivalents, but they aren't meant to be.

Bolt Escape will allow you to escape from the middle of enemies.

Path of Darkness won't do that as well due to roots. But you can still dodge roll out of the root. If they add an immunity to roots after breaking out of roots, it'll be much closer. However, the advantage of Path of Darkness (Refreshing Path morph) is that it will also heal you as you escape. So if you use it to get away, you'll find that you have near full health when/if they do catch you.

Dark Cloak won't get you out of a fight you're already in if its a large group situation. That's because the AoEs being thrown about will pull you out of stealth. But if you see a group coming over a hill ahead of you, its actually a bit better than BE. That's because with BE they can see my trail running away and follow. With Dark Cloak, I can go invisible and keep it up till they've left. I can go behind a rock even and let my magicka regen (shown in vid.) Its just as spammable, but it prevents them from seeing you.

You're right that they're not perfectly the same though. They each work best in different situations.

Alandauron

OMG people, there is no pleasing the whiners. BE is not without a counter, there is a reason they left people vulnerable to roots and stuns and interrupts while using BE. BECAUSE THAT IS HOW YOU COUNTER IT.

Is it the most convenient escape skill? Yes, hence the name Bolt ESCAPE.

Once you guys stop whining and try to get a counter for it then they won't have a chance of escaping a large group just like the NB.

Can some players utilize BE in a rather efficient and annoing way? Yes, but the same can be said for every other halfway decent skill.

Great players are going to be able to take a good skill and really make it work in an annoying/wonderful way. Not every player out there is at that "Great" level though, myself included. I'm not a great player, but I can counter BE, I just have to change my preferred build.

Niffo

1:11-1:40 Dodge rolling out of immobilize is unnecessary when you it does not keep you from Bolt Escaping, after the first Shield Charge->Talons combo the Sorcerer could bolted out of range of Shield Charge when they had the immunity up, but instead the Sorcerer chooses to just hang around.

2:15-2:50 Again you have a Sorcerer who is just bad at what they're doing, nine casts of Bolt Escape and they just stop moving, no pots, no warlock set bonus, they don't even run while bolting. You're showing a scenario where the Sorcerer doesn't try to get away. Dodge roll costs about 302 stamina when you have full specced medium armour, assuming you had soft capped stamina at around 2000 you can dodge six times before running out of stamina and hasty retreat lasts 2 seconds, with Light Armour and class passives Bolt Escape costs about 250 magicka and can be cast 8 times with about 2000 magicka, this is ignoring any other magicka/stamina recovery options available pots/set bonuses which would help the magicka user more than the stamina user.

2:52-3:34 Path of Darkness has a higher cost than Bolt Escape does at its base, and this Nightblade is wearing medium armour and probably not even close to capping his magicka AND hes sprinting, so he has to blow through both resource pools to not even be able to keep up. What happens when the Nightblade catches up to the Sorcerer? When they have no resources left to actually do anything to the Sorcerer. Path of Darkness also requires you traverse the terrain, so there's travel time, Bolt Escape moves you instantly forward. Having to travel over the terrain is slower than moving instantly.

3:45-4:47 Dark Cloak only removes damage-over-time effects, nothing else. The biggest and most obvious difference between the two skill is that when you use invisibility you're still in the same place and can be brought back out of invisibility by taking damage, so damage hard counters stealth/invisibility. When you Bolt Escape you're no longer in the same place and you're not effected by movement impairing effects unlike Dark Cloak which will be impacted making it even easier to get caught.

4:46-6:42 Exact same situation as the Dragonknight, bad players. The Sorcerer even manages to get far out of range of the Templar, giving him more than enough breathing room to use Dark Exchange, which will allow you to come right back at full effectiveness. This is another unrealistic encounter setup just to give the illusion that there are actual counters.

6:49-End Not a hard counter, as the Sorcerer can heal up and re-engage if you don't give chase. Unless the Sorcerer logs out as soon as they break combat, they are still a threat. Just last night this exact thing happened, could not catch the Sorcerer they got out healed up and came back in and added onto another fight. Being able to disengage and re-engage at will is incredibly powerful, only one class being able to do it is overpowered.

You did exactly what I was expecting you would do, make a video as bias as possible showing that the only Sorcerers you can stop are the ones that are absolute idiots. You can block while casting instant abilities so that stops any stun/knockdown options. You could not have done a poorer job if you had tried, nothing you've shown hard counters Bolt Escape, while all of the "counters" can be countered by base defensive tools available to everyone, Bolt Escape itself, or just not being a complete idiot.

Thank you for the post.

Raggok

The heal from Path of Darkness won't save you from heavy focused damage from one player let alone four. You are extremely desperate to even mention it.

monkeymystic

This video is made by a sorceror who don't want his OP ability nerfed. The stuff in the video is NOT viable WHEN FACING A SORCEROR WHO ISN'T STUPID.

The combat mechanics, JUST TINY LAG, and the skill of the sorceror all makes the stuff in the video false.

It's easy to avoid those counters as a sorceror, and you know that very well.

Of course you dont want it nerfed when it makes you win everything and others quit over it?

Raggok

But if you see a group coming over a hill ahead of you, its actually a bit better than BE. That's because with BE they can see my trail running away and follow. With Dark Cloak, I can go invisible and keep it up till they've left

Wrong again.

What will happen is they will see where you stealthed and come over with mage light and AoE and run around until they find you and kill you since you can't cover a lot of ground in stealth without using vampire and a specific armor set.

We've killed many NBs we've seen stealth coming over a hill at distance. I've also died a lot when I get caught alone and a zerg comes over a hill. We've never killed a sorcerer in a similar situation. You'd never catch up with a bolt escaper if he already has that kind of distance cushion. It's just absolutely ridiculous (once again) to say that Dark Cloak is better in that situation or any situation for escaping than Bolt Escape.

I can't tell if you actually believe the things you say or if you are just an inherently dishonest person.

Raggok

Great players are going to be able to take a good skill and really make it work in an annoying/wonderful way.

Yeah, it's really hard spamming one button repeatedly. I have no problem with a sorcerer using it skillfully in a fight for positioning and setting up combos. That is not what people are complaining about.

People are complaining about how easy it is for a sorcerer to use it to escape situations where any other class dies.

Here is how you can tell when an ability is broken.

When a player can intentionally go into an enemy pack of players and troll them and get away consistently then the ability is broken. Dagger/pistol thieves in GW2 could do that as well as Mobo Warriors in GW2 and players used those broken mechanics to troll just as many sorcerors are doing right now in ESO.

Game mechanics that enable trolling are bad.

Niffo

Alandauron wrote: »

OMG people, there is no pleasing the whiners. BE is not without a counter, there is a reason they left people vulnerable to roots and stuns and interrupts while using BE. BECAUSE THAT IS HOW YOU COUNTER IT.

Is it the most convenient escape skill? Yes, hence the name Bolt ESCAPE.

Once you guys stop whining and try to get a counter for it then they won't have a chance of escaping a large group just like the NB.

Can some players utilize BE in a rather efficient and annoing way? Yes, but the same can be said for every other halfway decent skill.

Great players are going to be able to take a good skill and really make it work in an annoying/wonderful way. Not every player out there is at that "Great" level though, myself included. I'm not a great player, but I can counter BE, I just have to change my preferred build.

It always seems like the people that are using broken abilities think that it's not the ability that is carrying them, just their raw skill.

Neferath

What we have here, is exactly the same as within the other thread regarding bolt escape op nerf nonses blah.

A rather small group of 5-max 8 players who dare to assume that they represent the majority of players in cyrodiil while ranting for nerfes.

Honestly i did spend almost every minute of my online hours during the last week at Auriels Bow EU server and i didnt notice any of the things that are claimed here.

There arent millions of sorc players out there wich all out of the sudden have rerolled in order to become op.

There arent dozens of sorc players who exploit bolt escape + immov in order to annoy complete groups of other players.

There arent dozens of sorc players that constantly are able to escape literally any situation.

There is no constant ranting and nerf crying at the zone chat about op sorces.

To be honest what i see every single day, are many sorc players who are out there playing as healers trying to stay alive in order to keep their group alive and guess what, almost all of them die like the rest.

All of this is nothing more than ranting from some wannabe super-pro gamers that just realised that they arent able to rule every single situation out there and therefore are frustrated since they are forced to accept that they are in need of a team too in order to overcome the one or other situation or enemy player.

But actually this is exactely what this game is all about.

Teamplay and large scale group-pvp.

Honestly ZOS should close any "single nerf this or that blah nonsense" thread without any exceptions cause this will never stop.

First we had the vampires beeing nerfed because of a bug, not because they used to be op. Thanks to the ranters. Now it's the sorc that of course is op but not because they use their sorc skills but because of the fact that immov - wich isnt a sorc skill - doesnt prevent them from using bolt escape while it actually should imo.

Once your ranting had success and the and every single sorc out there is nerfed to ground (and this will also affect every single pve-player out there, ppl tend to forget that ...), you will move on to DK in order to get it nerfed.

Once DK is dealed with and all the broken Nightblade skills are working this class will be your next target and so on and so on. The spiral never stops.

So seriously stop this nonsense, allow ZOS to fix all the broken skills and bugs that really affect gameplay and once this is done, once the majority of pvp players has reached a somewhat equal level so we aren't forced to compare some lowlevel player who is in his 30's with vet 5-10 players anymore, than we can speak about class balance ...

Kraigan

When people stop caring about balance, the game will become irrelevant because nobody will be left playing. I'll take a busy forum full of arguments any day of the week over apathy, an empty forum and a diminishing player base.

RaZaddha

Neferath wrote: »

What we have here, is exactly the same as within the other thread regarding bolt escape op nerf nonses blah.

A rather small group of 5-max 8 players who dare to assume that they represent the majority of players in cyrodiil while ranting for nerfes.

Honestly i did spend almost every minute of my online hours during the last week at Auriels Bow EU server and i didnt notice any of the things that are claimed here.

There arent millions of sorc players out there wich all out of the sudden have rerolled in order to become op.

There arent dozens of sorc players who exploit bolt escape + immov in order to annoy complete groups of other players.

There arent dozens of sorc players that constantly are able to escape literally any situation.

There is no constant ranting and nerf crying at the zone chat about op sorces.

To be honest what i see every single day, are many sorc players who are out there playing as healers trying to stay alive in order to keep their group alive and guess what, almost all of them die like the rest.

All of this is nothing more than ranting from some wannabe super-pro gamers that just realised that they arent able to rule every single situation out there and therefore are frustrated since they are forced to accept that they are in need of a team too in order to overcome the one or other situation or enemy player.

But actually this is exactely what this game is all about.

Teamplay and large scale group-pvp.

Honestly ZOS should close any "single nerf this or that blah nonsense" thread without any exceptions cause this will never stop.

First we had the vampires beeing nerfed because of a bug, not because they used to be op. Thanks to the ranters. Now it's the sorc that of course is op but not because they use their sorc skills but because of the fact that immov - wich isnt a sorc skill - doesnt prevent them from using bolt escape while it actually should imo.

Once your ranting had success and the and every single sorc out there is nerfed to ground (and this will also affect every single pve-player out there, ppl tend to forget that ...), you will move on to DK in order to get it nerfed.

Once DK is dealed with and all the broken Nightblade skills are working this class will be your next target and so on and so on. The spiral never stops.

So seriously stop this nonsense, allow ZOS to fix all the broken skills and bugs that really affect gameplay and once this is done, once the majority of pvp players has reached a somewhat equal level so we aren't forced to compare some lowlevel player who is in his 30's with vet 5-10 players anymore, than we can speak about class balance ...

Ok then, let's wait until the majority of players are VR to start balancing, when this happens give me a call, I bet all my gold Cyrodiil will be a ghost town.

Niffo

Neferath wrote: »

Teamplay and large scale group-pvp.

This game is not centered around that, the devs have said cyrodiil is for all types of pvp.

Neferath wrote: »

Honestly ZOS should close any "single nerf this or that blah nonsense" thread without any exceptions cause this will never stop.

Wonderful attitude, Zenimax should not allow paying customers to voice their opinions. Any time someone feels their broken ability may be threatened they want to silence people that bring it to light. If the ability is working as intended why has Zenimax already tried nerfing it? They tried and failed at it because they did not address the issue, just like they failed to fix the underlying problem with Bat Swarm spam.

If you can't handle discussions on forums why even come to them?

NordJitsu

Neferath wrote: »

What we have here, is exactly the same as within the other thread regarding bolt escape op nerf nonses blah.

A rather small group of 5-max 8 players who dare to assume that they represent the majority of players in cyrodiil while ranting for nerfes.

To be fair though, the video wasn't really made for their benefit. Like I've been saying all along, these aren't people who are willing to learn, adapt, test mechanics, ect.

If you aren't willing to learn, a tutorial won't do much for you. It wasn't unexpected that they'd deny evidence in front of their eyes.

Instead we've got a handful of loud players, who don't understand the game very well, and who are reacting in a knee jerk fashion to their frustration at being unable to compete with other players. They've thrown what ever skills on their bar suited them and want to be able to use those same skills to Counter a high mobility build. They're oblivious to the fact that their build isn't designed to counter every other build and think that means no counters exist.

But hey, who cares about 5 bad players whining on a forum anyway?

We've done the best we can for them and at this point its probably best to just ignore them and continue talking to more reasonable people.

Raggok

NordJitsu wrote: »

[
To be fair though, the video wasn't really made for their benefit. Like I've been saying all along, these aren't people who are willing to learn, adapt, test mechanics

Make a movie with you or your friends consistently escaping a group of people already engaged on you or them with a Nightblade, Templar, and DK. And it would need to be real PvP where people are actually trying to kill you.

That is what you would need to do to convince people that other classes have escape abilities just as good as a sorcerer.

Niffo

NordJitsu wrote: »

To be fair though, the video wasn't really made for their benefit. Like I've been saying all along, these aren't people who are willing to learn, adapt, test mechanics, ect.

If you aren't willing to learn, a tutorial won't do much for you. It wasn't unexpected that they'd deny evidence in front of their eyes.

Instead we've got a handful of loud players, who don't understand the game very well, and who are reacting in a knee jerk fashion to their frustration at being unable to compete with other players. They've thrown what ever skills on their bar suited them and want to be able to use those same skills to Counter a high mobility build. They're oblivious to the fact that their build isn't designed to counter every other build and think that means no counters exist.

But hey, who cares about 5 bad players whining on a forum anyway?

We've done the best we can for them and at this point its probably best to just ignore them and continue talking to more reasonable people.

So the bad players are the ones not abusing broken abilities? What a twist. You're so skilled you're unwilling to play the game without one ability.

Raggok

Instead we've got a handful of loud players, who don't understand the game very well,

This from a guy who didn't know that you got auto-immunity from hard CC after it wore off.

NordJitsu

@Raggok‌

I might just do that. Two of my guild officers have built their DKs to be more like NBs. They're extremely fast. I'm pretty sure @Obscure‌ could show himself escaping zergs over and over using speed, invisibility potions, and intelligent play. Should he choose to that is.

I'm not going to ask him to waste his time on it unless he's feeling it.

Raggok

NordJitsu wrote: »

@Raggok‌

I might just do that. Two of my guild officers have built their DKs to be more like NBs. They're extremely fast. I'm pretty sure @Obscure‌ could show himself escaping zergs over and over using speed, invisibility potions, and intelligent play. Should he choose to that is.

I'm not going to ask him to waste his time on it unless he's feeling it.

There you go again. Try to use class abilities only. Sorcerors have access to invisibility potions, medium armor, bow dodge roll, steed mundus stones and all of the other crap you always bring up as well, you know.