New CC Immunity System

NordJitsu

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

e.gamemarkb14_ESO wrote: »

Are you playing on PTS or just taking someones word for it? I would like to see a video demonstrating this please. 7 seconds would be a bit too long, were 2-3 seconds would be more balanced in my opinion.

At most 1-2 seconds if you ask me. This is indeed on the PTS. It's an absurd move and a huge dumbing-down of the combat as well, making there be little reason to bother with a CC break unless you are going to die from not doing so. Why reward poor gameplay with this kind of mechanic? It also drastically will alter combat and skillcap.... and it's not even called out in the notes, being ninja'd in. Come on ZOS... talk to us before putting major game-changers like this in at all!

Ya I'm still upset that we weren't told when this was added, even though its apparently been there since at least the last live patch.

Video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSum6bPmtC8&feature=youtu.be

Niffo

CC Tutorial footage from March 9th of auto immunity. It has been in the game since beta and none of you have noticed it, you can also see the immunity buffs, breakout is listed as CC lasts 7 seconds and then auto which is labeled as Ability CC which lasts 5 seconds. Incredible testers you guys are, months of playing the game WITH the working API and you don't notice this.

NordJitsu

@jobo11b16_ESO‌

I fully admit that I was in error. But I can also guarantee you that it didn't used to be this way. Whether it was added last patch, one month ago, or two months, we still should have been told when it was added.

Good players are always going to break a CC. That's why we haven't noticed the addition of auto-immunity unless the developers actually tell us in the patch notes.

I've been playing the game since September. @Attorneyatlawl‌ has been playing even longer than that. We got our understanding of the mechanics before the current system was in place and then that system was changed without acknowledgement from the developers.

Niffo

March 9th was when the video was posted, it was recorded during one of the weekend betas. You keep saying you're a good player and you know so much about the game, and yet you don't know about the immunity system that was more than likely added when they added in the breakout functionality.

NordJitsu

@jobo11b16_ESO‌

March was the very last month of Beta. The CC break out was in since September. You used to have to actually react to CC inorder to get an immunity.

Just because I was wrong about when this was added doesn't mean its a good system or that its okay that we weren't told about it.

Its AoE caps all over again.

Niffo

NordJitsu wrote: »

@jobo11b16_ESO‌

March was the very last month of Beta. The CC break out was in since September. You used to have to actually react to CC inorder to get an immunity.

Just because I was wrong about when this was added doesn't mean its a good system or that its okay that we weren't told about it.

Its AoE caps all over again.

Ah AoE caps, one of the other major things that the testers didn't notice.

It figures the class with a nuke + knockdown would dislike auto-immunity since it makes his easy mode class a little less powerful. The game either needs immunity or diminishing returns, because being able to stun lock people from 100 to 0 is not skilled gameplay.

e.gamemarkb14_ESO

jobo11b16_ESO wrote: »

e.gamemarkb14_ESO wrote: »

Are you playing on PTS or just taking someones word for it? I would like to see a video demonstrating this please. 7 seconds would be a bit too long, were 2-3 seconds would be more balanced in my opinion.

I have to say, there needed to be some form of reasonable CC immunity to what we were dealing with already, being able to spam CC's none stop and forcing our foes to either burn all their stamina, thus forcing them to stay in the fight anyway to get burned down, was a little OP, however any long period immunity would not be the answer to dealing with this.

While we could state that everyone could obtain the heavy armor skill to make themselves invulnerable to CC for up to 7-8 seconds, it should never be a required skill or to force players to invest into it. That is why having the ability to break free from CC was implemented, but I honestly doubt they ever intended for players to be perma stuck with the standard system because of our ability to spam CC, do you?

Considering that the auto-immunity before this change was 5 seconds, I doubt they would reduce it below that with how much CC is available. I wonder if they increased the duration of the breakout immunity too.

Hmmm, if there was a working auto-immunity, it certainly wasn't working in current game play because I know of a lot of players who use their CC break ability only to get immediately re-stunned, rooted, whatever, endlessly.

A Dragon Knight for example spamming their talons, after I used CC break with stamina, I immediately get held again, or stunned, from other sources over and over.

How about the ongoing stun locks I can do to any player using teleport strike that stuns my foe for 1.5 seconds? I just spam it over and over and my foe can't move or do anything.

Not sure what is supposed to work, hopefully they will figure it out before it goes live.

Niffo

e.gamemarkb14_ESO wrote: »

Hmmm, if there was a working auto-immunity, it certainly wasn't working in current game play because I know of a lot of players who use their CC break ability only to get immediately re-stunned, rooted, whatever, endlessly.

A Dragon Knight for example spamming their talons, after I used CC break with stamina, I immediately get held again, or stunned, from other sources over and over.

How about the ongoing stun locks I can do to any player using teleport strike that stuns my foe for 1.5 seconds? I just spam it over and over and my foe can't move or do anything.

Not sure what is supposed to work, hopefully they will figure it out before it goes live.

Dodging does not give immunity to immobilize. About the other things, its probably lag, or you're just seeing things.

Nidwin

Strong and long passive CC immunities are needed. Can't we just learn from the past or do we have to do it all over again in every new MMORPG?

I've another suggestion.
Is it possible to give Neutrino, Warpes, Riftbeards and myself Chaotic Rift?
I mean the one before the Chaotic Rift nerf and CC immunity patch of course.

NERF Magus!

KoooZ

lao wrote: »

no worries guys. broken talons will still be broken! all is good!

losing more faith in these devs by the day -.-

wrong "fix" on bash, wrong "fix" on CC´s , not fixing vamp passives WHILE UR ALREADY MESSING WITH THE REDUCTION!?!??

seriously ZOS....just hire me already ill fix ur game for a reasonable salary...

The bash cooldown was false. If I recall the 324 post thread about dark talons, the argument was ultimately a push for root immunity after dodge roll. More CC immunity isn't a step away from that anyway.

Kypho

ohh ye. who wants to remain stunned even for 3 sec without breaking out anyway? Who can wait for 3 sec and just walk away? LOL wth. Whoever tried to wait for the stun to go away died.

NordJitsu

@Kypho‌

There are a lot of shorter stuns than that though as well as things like knock backs and knock downs which are only momentary CCs.

Take destructive reach for example. It used to be a strategy to break it mid primarily to give yourself CC immunity.

If you get that immunity even without breaking, then why would you break it? There's no stun or anything.

Its taken a strategic decision out of the game.

Honfold

Lol so there is some immunity for CC but that excludes Talons? Who was behind that design? Even if the same immunity existed for Talons I'm sure it would barely matter with that particular issue.

beravinprb19_ESO

Anything that takes PvP in a less skill required direction is a very bad change. A better idea would have been to have a better PvP tutorial, where you would actually have to learn about sneaking, stun breaking, rolling out of immobilize, and various other PvP mechanics...

Cydone

beravinprb19_ESO wrote: »

Anything that takes PvP in a less skill required direction is a very bad change. A better idea would have been to have a better PvP tutorial, where you would actually have to learn about sneaking, stun breaking, rolling out of immobilize, and various other PvP mechanics...

So, clicking one button after the other is what's considered to be skill now?? lol

beravinprb19_ESO

Cydone wrote: »

beravinprb19_ESO wrote: »

Anything that takes PvP in a less skill required direction is a very bad change. A better idea would have been to have a better PvP tutorial, where you would actually have to learn about sneaking, stun breaking, rolling out of immobilize, and various other PvP mechanics...

So, clicking one button after the other is what's considered to be skill now?? lol

Not really. However, to that I say two things. First, it takes a hell of a lot more skill than doing nothing, and being reward for it. Second, players should need to manage their resources if they want to do things like stun break. They are just dumbing down the game...

Cydone

beravinprb19_ESO wrote: »

Cydone wrote: »

beravinprb19_ESO wrote: »

Anything that takes PvP in a less skill required direction is a very bad change. A better idea would have been to have a better PvP tutorial, where you would actually have to learn about sneaking, stun breaking, rolling out of immobilize, and various other PvP mechanics...

So, clicking one button after the other is what's considered to be skill now?? lol

Not really. However, to that I say two things. First, it takes a hell of a lot more skill than doing nothing, and being reward for it. Second, it takes some degree of skill to manage your stamina so you have enough left to stun break, block, or whatever else you need to do.

SWG had some of the best pvp I had ever experienced....in the later NGE. There were auto CC immunity affects to certain abilities. Like, Bounty Hunter. BH's had an area trap they could lay down at their feet that, with the right jewelry set, could root an entire group of ppl and this root was unbreakable. Right after that root affect ended, there was an immunity to where you couldn't dire root that person or persons again for like 10 secs, or something like that.

Snares weren't affected by this, so I can see that being a problem here. But there were cooldowns on 98% of all the abilities in SWG. So, you couldn't spam snares, like you can in this game. And I like the changes because I don't have to waste my stamina on gaining immunity anymore, especially considering that all the roots and snares(I believe, I could be wrong) don't have cast times. I know some knockdowns have cast times, but that's different than JUST a root or snare. So, it seemed kind of backwards that I should have to waste a good chunk of my stam to break the root AND gain immunity, when whatever player/npc could just throw it right back on me.

Now, if there were cooldowns introduced, I think that this system would have to be re-worked in order to achieve balance. At least not giving immunity right away on JUST snares. I also think that adding in cooldowns is the only real way they will be able to balance this games PvP out, in the long run.

beravinprb19_ESO

Cydone wrote: »

beravinprb19_ESO wrote: »

Cydone wrote: »

beravinprb19_ESO wrote: »

Anything that takes PvP in a less skill required direction is a very bad change. A better idea would have been to have a better PvP tutorial, where you would actually have to learn about sneaking, stun breaking, rolling out of immobilize, and various other PvP mechanics...

So, clicking one button after the other is what's considered to be skill now?? lol

Not really. However, to that I say two things. First, it takes a hell of a lot more skill than doing nothing, and being reward for it. Second, it takes some degree of skill to manage your stamina so you have enough left to stun break, block, or whatever else you need to do.

I also think that adding in cooldowns is the only real way they will be able to balance this games PvP out, in the long run.

I admit, I found the lack of cooldowns very surprising. On one hand, I enjoy it because I'm not constantly looking at timers. On the other, people are just using the same abilities over and over again. I honestly think diminishing returns would suit this game quite well.

RaZaddha

NordJitsu wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

e.gamemarkb14_ESO wrote: »

Are you playing on PTS or just taking someones word for it? I would like to see a video demonstrating this please. 7 seconds would be a bit too long, were 2-3 seconds would be more balanced in my opinion.

At most 1-2 seconds if you ask me. This is indeed on the PTS. It's an absurd move and a huge dumbing-down of the combat as well, making there be little reason to bother with a CC break unless you are going to die from not doing so. Why reward poor gameplay with this kind of mechanic? It also drastically will alter combat and skillcap.... and it's not even called out in the notes, being ninja'd in. Come on ZOS... talk to us before putting major game-changers like this in at all!

Ya I'm still upset that we weren't told when this was added, even though its apparently been there since at least the last live patch.

Video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSum6bPmtC8&feature=youtu.be

I quit. I quit trying to understand what ZOS wants with "balance", I quit those "balance" threads and now I will just let the game run its course. They seriously need to make a official explanation of every mechanic in the game, AoE cap was one misconception, now this? I just can't get myself to bother anymore with this kind of stuff...

Xsorus

Well, Pulls have a cc immunity timer for a reason I believe

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tdM_CA9ODg

This is what happens when ya don't have immunity on them, Us playing Marauders during Wrath of Heroes beta

Phoenix99

All CC as in both soft and hard?!

WTF?! this game just became a "no skill game" as if it was not hard enough to take down some builds...

Oh well.. it seems we will see no melee at all. It's just not viable at all anymore with these changes.

This is a huge indirect buff to sorcs, vampires, ranged heroes and glass cannon builds, as if they were not strong enough. It buffs magicka users vs stamina users even more... this is a VERY BAD STEP.

Cydone

Phoenix99 wrote: »

All CC as in both soft and hard?!

WTF?! this game just became a "no skill game" as if it was not hard enough to take down some builds...

Oh well.. it seems we will see no melee at all. It's just not viable at all anymore with these changes.

This is a huge indirect buff to sorcs, vampires, ranged heroes and glass cannon builds, as if they were not strong enough. It buffs magicka users vs stamina users even more... this is a VERY BAD STEP.

You mention glass cannons and then complain about how strong they are. SMH! If someone is a "glass cannon", they are trading off survivability for damage. That, my son, would be what is called balance AND risk vs reward.

Niffo

[quote="RaZaddha;805763"

Ya I'm still upset that we weren't told when this was added, even though its apparently been there since at least the last live patch.

Video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSum6bPmtC8&feature=youtu.be[/quote]

I quit. I quit trying to understand what ZOS wants with "balance", I quit those "balance" threads and now I will just let the game run its course. They seriously need to make a official explanation of every mechanic in the game, AoE cap was one misconception, now this? I just can't get myself to bother anymore with this kind of stuff...[/quote]

This has been since beta months ago, long before release. It's just that the people in CBT have terrible observation skills.

Phoenix99

Cydone wrote: »

Phoenix99 wrote: »

All CC as in both soft and hard?!

WTF?! this game just became a "no skill game" as if it was not hard enough to take down some builds...

Oh well.. it seems we will see no melee at all. It's just not viable at all anymore with these changes.

This is a huge indirect buff to sorcs, vampires, ranged heroes and glass cannon builds, as if they were not strong enough. It buffs magicka users vs stamina users even more... this is a VERY BAD STEP.

You mention glass cannons and then complain about how strong they are. SMH! If someone is a "glass cannon", they are trading off survivability for damage. That, my son, would be what is called balance AND risk vs reward.

I am complaining about them being too strong if this bad idea of CC immunity gets to see the live patch. Good luck staying on target with it. It's a Huge nerf to all melee classes and stamina users, and its a huge buff to already very strong high mobility classes, ranged combatants and pure magicka builds.

Niffo

Phoenix99 wrote: »

I am complaining about them being too strong if this bad idea of CC immunity gets to see the live patch. Good luck staying on target with it.

CC immunity has been in the game for months, since the closed beta.

Phoenix99

jobo11b16_ESO wrote: »

Phoenix99 wrote: »

I am complaining about them being too strong if this bad idea of CC immunity gets to see the live patch. Good luck staying on target with it.

CC immunity has been in the game for months, since the closed beta.

If I understand correctly, the new one will also apply to immobilize effect and snares/slows. I know about auto-application since day one as players couldn't be chain pulled by the DKs chain even if they not reacted, but IMO it's a bad idea in itself. It makes skills like Immovable near useless, it also devalues the concept of blocking and rewards bad players, who do not even want to block telegraphed stuns (the only situation when you cannot reliably block a stun, is when you get attacked from behind with no vision or from stealth). There are no instant stuns with no travel time or long animation, with exception of pulling chain which has very fast travel time so you have to block in anticipation of it.

Niffo

Phoenix99 wrote: »

If I understand correctly, the new one will also apply to immobilize effect and snares/slows. I know about auto-application since day one as players couldn't be chain pulled by the DKs chain even if they not reacted, but IMO it's a bad idea in itself. It makes skills like Immovable near useless, it also devalues the concept of blocking and rewards bad players, who do not even want to block telegraphed stuns (the only situation when you cannot reliably block a stun, is when you get attacked from behind with no vision or from stealth). There are no instant stuns with no travel time or long animation, with exception of pulling chain which has very fast travel time so you have to block in anticipation of it.

You don't understand it correctly, there is no new CC immunity system, it does not effect snare/root. What OP is talking about is the auto-immunity system that has been in place for months since long before the early access period, during the closed beta. This post is just people that do not pay attention to the game they're playing.

Phoenix99

jobo11b16_ESO wrote: »

Phoenix99 wrote: »

If I understand correctly, the new one will also apply to immobilize effect and snares/slows. I know about auto-application since day one as players couldn't be chain pulled by the DKs chain even if they not reacted, but IMO it's a bad idea in itself. It makes skills like Immovable near useless, it also devalues the concept of blocking and rewards bad players, who do not even want to block telegraphed stuns (the only situation when you cannot reliably block a stun, is when you get attacked from behind with no vision or from stealth). There are no instant stuns with no travel time or long animation, with exception of pulling chain which has very fast travel time so you have to block in anticipation of it.

You don't understand it correctly, there is no new CC immunity system, it does not effect snare/root. What OP is talking about is the auto-immunity system that has been in place for months since long before the early access period, during the closed beta. This post is just people that do not pay attention to the game they're playing.

In that case I guess nothing really changes... Initial wording was that it makes you immune to ALL CC (hence my reaction), but I see that the first post was reworded and changed "all" to "hard".

It still is bad idea IMO to reward inaction with a buff, but it's nothing new.

RaZaddha

jobo11b16_ESO wrote: »

This has been since beta months ago, long before release. It's just that the people in CBT have terrible observation skills.

Yeaaaah... Right, if only ZOS had explained every bit of mechanic before, it wouldn't have started two misconceptions about mechanics. You say terrible but I used to chain CC newbies who never stun break with my binding javelin or shield charge, I have seen people get chain pulled multiple times consecutively before, I have never seen this kind of auto cc immunity.

The point of discussing specifics about balance gets lost when we don't fully understand the mechanics and what ZOS really wants with their "balance" vision.

joshisanonymous

jobo11b16_ESO wrote: »

CC Tutorial footage from March 9th of auto immunity. It has been in the game since beta and none of you have noticed it, you can also see the immunity buffs, breakout is listed as CC lasts 7 seconds and then auto which is labeled as Ability CC which lasts 5 seconds. Incredible testers you guys are, months of playing the game WITH the working API and you don't notice this.

I was immediately thinking of this video and scratching my head after reading the OP.

Anyway, gaining immunity without reacting absolutely does not dumb down the game. You still have a choice: wait for the CC to end to gain and hope that you don't die or use stamina to ensure that you don't die while CC'd. In the case of very short duration CCs, like the DK pull or Crystal Shard, there's still a decision to be made.

If I just let a DK pull me, I gain immunity without expending any stamina, but I'm also right next to them (as well as whatever group they may be with). So breaking it doesn't change the immunity factor, but it does affect your positioning, which may be crucial. Furthermore, if you look at it from the DK's perspective, they actually have to be smarter about how they use this skill now. It can't simply be spammed regardless of whether someone decides to break it or not. Without the auto-immunity, using this skill was a win-win: either they wasted a bunch of stamina or you put them in a disadvantageous position. Now, there has to be an actual reason to use it. This system arguably requires more skill.

Or take Crystal Shard. This doesn't change your position at all and it's a short duration. Dumbed down, right? I don't think so. It's not as if the knockdown lasts for 0 seconds, so, situationally, it benefits you to break out of it with stamina. If you decide to let it run it 1-2 second course, that possibly high damage sorcerer (who has no cooldown on their damage spells!) has a perfect opportunity to start up whatever DPS chain they want. If you were to break it, and say you're a DK, you can immediately pull them (no cooldown), which would likely catch them off guard and turn the tide of the fight. Again, from the sorcerer's perspective, using Crystal Shard requires more thought than without the immunity timer. It has to be used to interrupt or to set up a chain only when you suspect that your enemy is low on stamina. Again, this system arguably requires more skill.

Some of you are talking as if this combat system has never been done before but it resembles DAoC in how it handles cooldowns and CC. It'd be hard to say that that game had a failed combat system since it's still going. DAoC had no cooldowns, immunity to CC whether it's manually broken or not, and no immunity to snares. It's almost a copy-and-paste thing going on.

I think people on these forums jump to conclusions way too fast about what they think will be the death of the game. Every time someone notices a new mechanic, regardless of how tested it has been in other games or how long it has been in this game, posts start popping up here about how everything is stupid and everyone should quit. Relax.