State of PvP declaration, please.

Valei

Can we pretty please have a declaration in which one of the senior designers discuss the current state and the future of Cyrodil?

Would help tremendeously to decide wether to sub or not. The current state and the signs from the powers to be have not been comforting, at all. Preferbly, the following questions would be brought up:

• AOE purpose and philosophy.
• What are the top priorities for Cyrodil.
• What is not working as intended.
• What is working as intended.

By revealing the philosophy and the purpose of AOE you will give us an insight into what kind of gameplay you envision, and it will clearify wether or not this is as a game for those of us who wish to participate in Cyrodil as part of a organized group and guild with a heavy focus on PvP.

By explaining what the top priorities for Cyrodil are, and what you find is not working aswell as working you will reveal how in touch you are with whats going on in there. This is your chance to shine when it comes to good communication and state of game knowledge.

Ace these questions and you will have a community that is more patient, more inclined to hold out in times of bugs, rocky stability and poor balance. Moreover you will have a more forgiving community that is less inclined to unsub becose there is seemingly no hope for the game. If the devs do not understand the problems we face and the issues we find important, how can they motivate themselves to stay on?

Sincerely,

Valei

zuo

DECLARATION PVP OF TESO :








Blabla






Blabla²












RIP

TheGrandAlliance

Mates this nonsense over AoE caps is crazy. Exploiters use this as a way to wipe whole raids. I am tired of the so-called "elite PvP guilds" whining about how their "elite powers" are being drained away.

If you cannot fight without AoE caps you are nothing more then the "trash randoms" you complain about every day. Get off this game already... the 99% of us will be glad.


Edit: This post is not directly targed at the OP but in general terms.

Mordenkaiser

1% of us will be Glad too
I am the 1%!

Kingslayer

Read the developer discussion...

Jackiepvp

TheGrandAlliance wrote: »

Mates this nonsense over AoE caps is crazy. Exploiters use this as a way to wipe whole raids. I am tired of the so-called "elite PvP guilds" whining about how their "elite powers" are being drained away.

If you cannot fight without AoE caps you are nothing more then the "trash randoms" you complain about every day. Get off this game already... the 99% of us will be glad.


Edit: This post is not directly targed at the OP but in general terms.

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree. Now if you could follow your own advice.

TheGrandAlliance

"Jackiepvp wrote: »

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree. Now if you could follow your own advice.

WEll being I am not an elite pvper there is nothing for me to do in this situation.

RaZaddha

TheGrandAlliance wrote: »

Mates this nonsense over AoE caps is crazy. Exploiters use this as a way to wipe whole raids. I am tired of the so-called "elite PvP guilds" whining about how their "elite powers" are being drained away.

If you cannot fight without AoE caps you are nothing more then the "trash randoms" you complain about every day. Get off this game already... the 99% of us will be glad.


Edit: This post is not directly targed at the OP but in general terms.

Ooh, 99%? Damn I dont think so. Why don't you spend some time on GW2 and come back and say how good it is the WvW there?

Valei

TheGrandAlliance wrote: »

Mates this nonsense over AoE caps is crazy. Exploiters use this as a way to wipe whole raids. I am tired of the so-called "elite PvP guilds" whining about how their "elite powers" are being drained away.

If you cannot fight without AoE caps you are nothing more then the "trash randoms" you complain about every day. Get off this game already... the 99% of us will be glad.

Edit: This post is not directly targed at the OP but in general terms.

Unfortunetly you are not realiseing the point I am trying to make here. First and foremost it is about fair and honest communication with the playerbase. Something I think we can all appriciate.

Second of all, it's not about catering the game for the "elite" It's about wether or not you want to create a setting that is ment to be played as a team, or a setting that is ment to be played as individuals.

The argument have been made before but I will draw it out again.

1. AOE is Capped to 6 targets.
2. Healing is as strong as it currently is.
3. The amount of players is as it is (Auriels Bow).
=
Players pile into one huge blob, or zerg if you will and they become safe. As AoE cannot really hurt them on account of it hitting random targets and not being targetable properly the result is players are not penalised at all for zerging. They are encoureged by the games mechs. It becomes a zerg race, were whoever has the biggest zerg wins.

TheGrandAlliance

"RaZaddha wrote: »

Why don't you spend some time on GW2 and come back and say how good it is the WvW there?

I do/did/done. THere is nothing wrong with GW2's mechanics for PvP. The only problem with GW2 is the map size is so small compared to this game. You wouldn't have the "zerg vs zerg" situation in GW2 if there was so much space... and targets to hit in that game.

TheGrandAlliance

Valei wrote: »

Players pile into one huge blob, or zerg if you will and they become safe. As AoE cannot really hurt them on account of it hitting random targets and not being targetable properly the result is players are not penalised at all for zerging. They are encoureged by the games mechs. It becomes a zerg race, were whoever has the biggest zerg wins.

There is nothing wrong with zergs. The goal is to break them up with seige AOE not OP player baed hit-everything in range AoE.

Remember there is no colision detection in this game for PvP... therefore there must be a AoE cap in place in the game to maintain any sense of realism.

RaZaddha

TheGrandAlliance wrote: »

"RaZaddha wrote: »

Why don't you spend some time on GW2 and come back and say how good it is the WvW there?

I do/did/done. THere is nothing wrong with GW2's mechanics for PvP. The only problem with GW2 is the map size is so small compared to this game. You wouldn't have the "zerg vs zerg" situation in GW2 if there was so much space... and targets to hit in that game.

There is no hope for humanity.

TheGrandAlliance wrote: »

Valei wrote: »

Players pile into one huge blob, or zerg if you will and they become safe. As AoE cannot really hurt them on account of it hitting random targets and not being targetable properly the result is players are not penalised at all for zerging. They are encoureged by the games mechs. It becomes a zerg race, were whoever has the biggest zerg wins.

There is nothing wrong with zergs. The goal is to break them up with seige AOE not OP player baed hit-everything in range AoE.

Remember there is no colision detection in this game for PvP... therefore there must be a AoE cap in place in the game to maintain any sense of realism.

Ouch... Another jab... I don't think I can handle this, stop harassing my brain.

TheGrandAlliance

Mates I live within 30 miles of ArenaNet. Me been to their public events. Me talk to their developers directly.

The TRUE Reason there is so much /grief over GW2's PvP is the elite's players unwillingness to work together "with the randoms".

Sure... in a game (ESO currently) whereas a 10v100 "elite guild" can boast about how much the pawn over the map. When elite guild's exploits that "make them elite" are removed such as GW2... they whine and whine all the day long.

Making this game elite friendly is /epicfail. If you think GW2 is simply zerg vs zerg then you need to rethink how you play. Take back your /facepalm

Zubba

Valei wrote: »

Can we pretty please have a declaration in which one of the senior designers discuss the current state and the future of Cyrodil?

Would help tremendeously to decide wether to sub or not. The current state and the signs from the powers to be have not been comforting, at all. Preferbly, the following questions would be brought up:

• AOE purpose and philosophy.
• What are the top priorities for Cyrodil.
• What is not working as intended.
• What is working as intended.

By revealing the philosophy and the purpose of AOE you will give us an insight into what kind of gameplay you envision, and it will clearify wether or not this is as a game for those of us who wish to participate in Cyrodil as part of a organized group and guild with a heavy focus on PvP.

By explaining what the top priorities for Cyrodil are, and what you find is not working aswell as working you will reveal how in touch you are with whats going on in there. This is your chance to shine when it comes to good communication and state of game knowledge.

Ace these questions and you will have a community that is more patient, more inclined to hold out in times of bugs, rocky stability and poor balance. Moreover you will have a more forgiving community that is less inclined to unsub becose there is seemingly no hope for the game. If the devs do not understand the problems we face and the issues we find important, how can they motivate themselves to stay on?

Sincerely,

Valei

Very good Points. I truly hope the devs will read this.

awkwarrd

Kingslayer wrote: »

Read the developer discussion...

Link the post that talks about Cyradiil please.

I read those forums, and not once do they talk about fixing Cyradiil.

RaZaddha

TheGrandAlliance wrote: »

Mates I live within 30 miles of ArenaNet. Me been to their public events. Me talk to their developers directly.

The TRUE Reason there is so much /grief over GW2's PvP is the elite's players unwillingness to work together "with the randoms".

Sure... in a game (ESO currently) whereas a 10v100 "elite guild" can boast about how much the pawn over the map. When elite guild's exploits that "make them elite" are removed such as GW2... they whine and whine all the day long.

Making this game elite friendly is /epicfail. If you think GW2 is simply zerg vs zerg then you need to rethink how you play. Take back your /facepalm

Sigh... It's not about elites... It's not, NOT about elites.
You know why DAoC is considered the best RvR ever and not GW2?
It's all about skill cap, skill ceiling.
GW2 zerg combat is bad because it has a low skill cap, theres little room for individual improvement, theres little individual gratification of running a zerg, you feel like just a "lemming". The combat is basically who has the bigger zerg, who can put the most water fields, who can put more AoE on the enemy. Theres very little variety of tactics a commander use, they are only choke points, surprise attacks and veil, if you ever use siege for a battle in the open you will be the laughing stock of the community. Siege is cheap, siege requires no skill and it's a one-time use, all you do in siege is spam your attacks at the enemy zerg, seriously, NO SKILL involved in using siege.

Once a battle starts in GW2 it's all about spamming your abilities and trying to survive in the mess of the battlefield, you require some skill to survive, but it's very much luck based, you need a lot of luck to not get hit by multiple AoE or CC because it's so chaotic no human can fully comprehend everything thats happening. A good stactic helps, sure, a good hammer train helps, sure, but rarely you see these things being the sole reason you won a fight, it's always who can spam moar AoE.

The skill cap is low because it's impossible for 3 people to make a difference, it's impossible for 3 VERY skilled players to take on a COMPLETELY UNORGANIZED zerg, if you want to take on a zerg in the open field you need another zerg with the same size, either that or you run to your keep and use AC's on them to shoo them away. You know what I'm saying? The only way for a 3 man group to take on a zerg would be through very smart AoE on a clumped up zerg. You think "hows that fair?" It is completely fair, all you have to do is DO NOT *** CLUMP UP, it's simple, people at DAoC understood this concept and battles would spread accross the landscape, instead of it being two zergs almost creating a black hole due to the amount of players inside each other.



In DAoC THIS happened, people SPREAD THE *** OUT, and the battles were glorious. People learned that if you clump up a guy would come screaming at you, mezz you all and you would only watch as your friends died horrible deaths by carpet bombing.
Like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIRY8VantWw

http://tamrielfoundry.com/2014/04/eso-target-caps/
This guy, he knows what hes talking about, he KNOWS WHAT HES *** TALKING ABOUT, so listen to him.

TheGrandAlliance

@RaZaddha‌

Ahhhhh REAL BATTLES ARE NOT SPREAD OUT!

Good thing you are not a general in the Roman army because you legions would have been /wipe a long time ago. Case in point Rome: Total War. In fact... you fail as a general in any battle might I add.

Just because you THINK DAoC is "the best PvP game ever" doesn't mean everyone else holds that opinion. Based upon your very own screenshots/videos above: There is nothing "realistic" about combat above. "Having to spread out as good game mechanics" is a poor excuse of a video game.

If you are so worried about this AoE cap the solution is colision detection. Therefore players would be forced to stand realistic distances from each other.

There you go... Problem solved. End of Chapter.

RaZaddha

TheGrandAlliance wrote: »

@RaZaddha‌

Ahhhhh REAL BATTLES ARE NOT SPREAD OUT!

Good thing you are not a general in the Roman army because you legions would have been /wipe a long time ago. Case in point Rome: Total War. In fact... you fail as a general in any battle might I add.

Just because you THINK DAoC is "the best PvP game ever" doesn't mean everyone else holds that opinion. Based upon your very own screenshots/videos above: There is nothing "realistic" about combat above. "Having to spread out as good game mechanics" is a poor excuse of a video game.

If you are so worried about this AoE cap the solution is colision detection. Therefore players would be forced to stand realistic distances from each other.

There you go... Problem solved. End of Chapter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FopyRHHlt3M

You want realism in a fantasy game? You wanna compare REAL LIFE Roman tactics to a FANTASY GAME?
Here's your realism:
If I put the ground on fire it must burn everyone that walks through, not simply "Oh, I burned 6 guys already, I won't burn anyone else until someone leaves the fire", what does that mean? NO AOE CAP.
Friendly fire would happen.
Siege wouldn't just spawn out of the ground you would have to manually build it and carry it.
If you got hit by a trebuchet boulder or a ballista you would die instantly.
You wouldn't be able to have 20 people occupying the same meter square without causing a black hole.
Your argument that spreading out isn't "real battles" is the most ridiculous thing I have seen. Romans didn't have the same magic we have here, romans couldn't spawn fireballs out of their hands, romans couldn't magically heal wounds, romans didn't summon monsters to do their bidding from another plane of reality. You can't compare reality to a fantasy game.
Do you want me to go on? Stop posting, you are just making yourself look bad.

We are not here to discuss realism, we are here discussing mechanics that will improve the game on the long run, mechanics that allow for a higher level of skill cap and change this game from simply being a "numbers game" to something that rewards individual player skill.

The problem is not solved until ZOS make a change.

Arreyanne

If they added friendly fire then no cap see how long it is before your melee curse you for AoE

AshTal

I agree with the OP we need some info on PvP right now it seems broke, mostly thinking Vampires and strange things happening with the mission boards, some times I can do scouting some times I can't, lot of missions being given to capture stuff we already hold etc etc.

Utherix

State of PvP: abandon ship.

Dudis

TheGrandAlliance wrote: »

Ahhhhh REAL BATTLES ARE NOT SPREAD OUT!

Good thing you are not a general in the Roman army because you legions would have been /wipe a long time ago. Case in point Rome: Total War. In fact... you fail as a general in any battle might I add.

Well, if the romans actually had to fight wizards that did a lot of "area damage", strategies would probably have looked different. :P

nicholaspingasb16_ESO

The purpose of AOE's is to be replaced by siege weapons, apparently.

TheGrandAlliance

Dudis wrote: »

Well, if the romans actually had to fight wizards that did a lot of "area damage", strategies would probably have looked different. :P

Yes however I am referring to general concept of "Melee AoE' in which some think it should hit everything in range. That doesn't happen because you are only so strong.

TheGrandAlliance

RaZaddha wrote: »

Your argument that spreading out isn't "real battles" is the most ridiculous thing I have seen. Romans didn't have the same magic we have here, romans couldn't spawn fireballs out of their hands, romans couldn't magically heal wounds, romans didn't summon monsters to do their bidding from another plane of reality. You can't compare reality to a fantasy game.
Do you want me to go on? Stop posting, you are just making yourself look bad.

We are not here to discuss realism, we are here discussing mechanics that will improve the game on the long run, mechanics that allow for a higher level of skill cap and change this game from simply being a "numbers game" to something that rewards individual player skill.

The problem is not solved until ZOS make a change.

O yea... and being the first to make it to vr10 is a "skill" or just benefit of having /nolife on first month of release?


Riiight we can play the /elitewhine game all day long nonetheless: When it comes to AoE... being able to hit unlimited targets does not make sense. Even if there is a pot of fire only so many will get burned before all the "thermal energy of the system" is absorbed. Magic attacks, although powerful, do NOT have "unlimited power". We are not gods.


Expecting a game to follow ur messed up sense of "balance" fantasy game or not simply shows that you fail the "meaning" behind PvP. Is 6 targets too small? IDK that is subject to debate. Versus 100 isnt' either. That would be crazy. Lighting bolt me all you want... there is only so many electrons to hit so many players.

ONce again: An "intelligent colision detection" between players solves this debate. You cannot stack zerg and "turtle" if you cannot move due to being right on top of each other. Instead of /elitewhine you should be trying to get ZeniMax "to do something smart" as you would put it for once.

RaZaddha

TheGrandAlliance wrote: »

RaZaddha wrote: »

Your argument that spreading out isn't "real battles" is the most ridiculous thing I have seen. Romans didn't have the same magic we have here, romans couldn't spawn fireballs out of their hands, romans couldn't magically heal wounds, romans didn't summon monsters to do their bidding from another plane of reality. You can't compare reality to a fantasy game.
Do you want me to go on? Stop posting, you are just making yourself look bad.

We are not here to discuss realism, we are here discussing mechanics that will improve the game on the long run, mechanics that allow for a higher level of skill cap and change this game from simply being a "numbers game" to something that rewards individual player skill.

The problem is not solved until ZOS make a change.

O yea... and being the first to make it to vr10 is a "skill" or just benefit of having /nolife on first month of release?


Riiight we can play the /elitewhine game all day long nonetheless: When it comes to AoE... being able to hit unlimited targets does not make sense. Even if there is a pot of fire only so many will get burned before all the "thermal energy of the system" is absorbed. Magic attacks, although powerful, do NOT have "unlimited power". We are not gods.


Expecting a game to follow ur messed up sense of "balance" fantasy game or not simply shows that you fail the "meaning" behind PvP. Is 6 targets too small? IDK that is subject to debate. Versus 100 isnt' either. That would be crazy. Lighting bolt me all you want... there is only so many electrons to hit so many players.

ONce again: An "intelligent colision detection" between players solves this debate. You cannot stack zerg and "turtle" if you cannot move due to being right on top of each other. Instead of /elitewhine you should be trying to get ZeniMax "to do something smart" as you would put it for once.

"O yea... and being the first to make it to vr10 is a "skill" or just benefit of having /nolife on first month of release?"

I never mentioned VR, what are you talking about? What are you smoking? I'm talking about player skill not player level.

"Riiight we can play the /elitewhine game all day long nonetheless: When it comes to AoE... being able to hit unlimited targets does not make sense. Even if there is a pot of fire only so many will get burned before all the "thermal energy of the system" is absorbed. Magic attacks, although powerful, do NOT have "unlimited power". We are not gods."

Generalize moar with the "/elitewhine", I just want the game to have higher skill cap, seriously, look for the definition of "skill ceiling" on a dictionary, it's one of the basic concepts of sports. Read my post above, read it once, read it twice, read it a thousand times until you understand it's all about SKILL CAP NOT /ELITEWHINE

*facepalm*. You still want to apply real life logic on a fantasy game? You know, even if things do get a "thermal energy" limit, YOU DON'T *** STAND ON OIL, AoE needs to hurt you enough that you don't even wanna be hit by it and if you ever do get hit by AoE YOU GET THE *** OUT OF IT, the ground is on fire and burning your entire body? YOU GET THE *** OUT OF IT. See? I can apply real life logic on a game too, but I won't distort logic and ignore important parts of it just to back my argument.

If we can summon monsters from other planes of reality, reanimate corpses and fight demi-gods, whats to say we can't have a magic fire that burns forever? Well, we can have it, because this is A *** FANTASY GAME. Stop trying to back your arguments comparing to real life.

"Expecting a game to follow ur messed up sense of "balance" fantasy game or not simply shows that you fail the "meaning" behind PvP. Is 6 targets too small? IDK that is subject to debate. Versus 100 isnt' either. That would be crazy. Lighting bolt me all you want... there is only so many electrons to hit so many players."

You know, lightning will run out of energy after hitting a few targets, but it will KILL THE FIRST FEW HUMANS IT HITS. Don't you dare talk about "sense of balance" if you ever think theres nothing wrong with GW2 zerg combat.

"intelligent colision detection"
You know how hard it's to code something like this? How exploitable such a thing is? How wonky collision detection generally is? It might still not solve the turtling problem, BECAUSE YOU STILL CAN'T OUTDAMAGE THE HEALING. No AoE cap makes it impossible for the healers to heal all incoming damage because everyone is taking damage, if they can just siply stand on the fire and all damage gets healed by the healer, you will never break the turtle. Go back to GW2 and ask why they run zergs the way they do, then you come back and try to apply your twisted logic on defending how you put it, "realistic" AoE caps.

You know whats smart? Following the steps of a game considered the best RvR that ever existed, you know whats dumb? Ignoring how a game like GW2 with such a low skill cap is hurtful for the longevity of the game.

EDIT: You need to understand that it's not a black and white discussion about having or not AoE cap, it's about having means to break up the turtling, being able to punish the zerg for stacking and turtling, it doesn't need to be completely unlimited, but the thing is the AoE cap needs to be raised, it needs to be high enough that people don't even think about copying the meta of GW2.