Area-of-Effect Abilities - Maximum Target Cap Clarification

Lava_Croft

Sharee wrote: »

You might want the check the total number of votes for that poll.

Over 3000. Real-life election polls where i live usually go with 1000-1200 to get a 95% accuracy(in a country with about 5 million voters).

So while it's a minority compared to the total game population, the results are certainly statistically significant.

Because comparing real-life election polls to a poll on the ESO forums makes sense?

The mere fact that nobody noticed the AoE caps and PvP still worked fine for both large and small groups is enough proof that a few people are whoefully overreacting to something they didn't even notice in the first place. It's pretty much like you prepare food for your child and the food contains a vegetable the child does not like, but the child does not notice this vegetable is in the food. Afterwards, you notify the child of the vegetable it contained and only then the child starts throwing a fit about how the food tastes horrible.

Yshaar

Lava_Croft wrote: »

The mere fact that nobody noticed the AoE caps and PvP still worked fine for both large and small groups is enough proof that a few people are whoefully overreacting to something they didn't even notice in the first place.

This is so right. Even the theory crafters of Tamriel Foundry did not notice it.

prana33b14_ESO

Quit centering on the fact that some aoe had caps. Guess what, all the ones above and possibly more listed didn't. It's been two weeks and the UI is wonky. People didn't notice because some obviously did hit everyone and others like me haven't had a chance to play yet. As stated in the other thread, now that raid leaders know this groups will quickly start balling up to mitigate the aoe hits they take.

Now, are you going to keep trolling or state why you disagree with removing the caps? Disagreeing because people didn't know SOME were already capped is a pretty lol argument.

Lava_Croft

prana33b14_ESO wrote: »

Now, are you going to keep trolling or state why you disagree with removing the caps? Disagreeing because people didn't know SOME were already capped is a pretty lol argument.

I agree with AoE caps because a group of 8 people should not be able to run into a group of 40 people, spam AoE and kill them all.

DukeofWhales

How about diminishing returns for the targets greater than 6. Prioritizing targets at the center first. With perhaps a diminished cap of 25% effectiveness

Xsorus

Lava_Croft wrote: »

prana33b14_ESO wrote: »

No, what is sad is you trolling this thread without any actual responses on how GW2 style zerg balls won't become an issue. People concerned about this were concerned about it before launch. You are right I didn't notice the caps. I'm level 17 and haven't gotten to pvp at all yet because I'm so busy. What a gotcha.

Yes, because not agreeing with the small, vocal minority is trolling. What is this, Reddit?

You keep talking about the vocal minority, i'm not sure you understand how polling actually works....or math....

Xsorus

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

You might want the check the total number of votes for that poll.

Over 3000. Real-life election polls where i live usually go with 1000-1200 to get a 95% accuracy(in a country with about 5 million voters).

So while it's a minority compared to the total game population, the results are certainly statistically significant.

Because comparing real-life election polls to a poll on the ESO forums makes sense?

The mere fact that nobody noticed the AoE caps and PvP still worked fine for both large and small groups is enough proof that a few people are whoefully overreacting to something they didn't even notice in the first place. It's pretty much like you prepare food for your child and the food contains a vegetable the child does not like, but the child does not notice this vegetable is in the food. Afterwards, you notify the child of the vegetable it contained and only then the child starts throwing a fit about how the food tastes horrible.

Nobody noticed the AoE caps, because the AoE's people were using to wipe zergs don't have a Cap

Standard and Dark Talons for Example

Sharee

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Because comparing real-life election polls to a poll on the ESO forums makes sense?

You tried to dismiss the people disagreeing with AOE cap as 'insignificant minority'

I have pointed out that even real-life election polls (i.e. serious business) only need ~1000 people polled (out of five millions) to arrive at a statistically significant estimation of overall population sentiments.

So yes, it makes sense. Significant sample is significant sample, no matter whether it is voters or MMO players.

prana33b14_ESO

Lava_Croft wrote: »

I agree with AoE caps because a group of 8 people should not be able to run into a group of 40 people, spam AoE and kill them all.

DAOC was known for 8 man groups and their ability to take out zergs if they were unorganized and not prepared. TESO says they are copying DAOC pvp. I mean, just lol. You prefer a numbers win game and bought this lol. Get ready. It's on the way. Though GW2 is free each month and the same thing.

Azmodeus

I have a feeling this is not because they want to limit AOE spells, but they have to. If the server only has to send out 6 packets to 6 players, it greatly reduces the amount of traffic coming out of the server rather than having to send it to 100. This I believe is being done to enhance big pvp battle synchronization.

Lava_Croft

Sharee wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Because comparing real-life election polls to a poll on the ESO forums makes sense?

You tried to dismiss the people disagreeing with AOE cap as 'insignificant minority'

I have pointed out that even real-life election polls (i.e. serious business) only need ~1000 people polled (out of five millions) to arrive at a statistically significant estimation of overall population sentiments.

So yes, it makes sense. Significant sample is significant sample, no matter whether it is voters or MMO players.

Because a game that's not even a month old with a player base that's still very busy exploring the possibilities of the game mechanics is really comparable to people's preferences when it comes to what political party they will vote for.
Not to mention that when it comes to real-life elections for government, a large number of poeple doesn't even go out to vote, simply because they don't really care.

It's just not comparable in any sane way. Even with your math and statistics.

prana33b14_ESO

hahaha lava croft must have been a romney guy. Statistics and Polling how do they work?

Sharee

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Because a game that's not even a month old with a player base that's still very busy exploring the possibilities of the game mechanics is really comparable to people's preferences when it comes to what political party they will vote for.
Not to mention that when it comes to real-life elections for government, a large number of poeple doesn't even go out to vote, simply because they don't really care.

It's just not comparable in any sane way. Even with your math and statistics.

I am not comparing elections to an MMO forum, i am using elections as a measure of how many people you need to poll to get a statistically significant result.

If you have 5 millions, you need to poll 1000 to get meaningful results.
3000 is not insignificant, 3000 is overkill.

valkaneer2b14_ESO

Lava_Croft wrote: »

prana33b14_ESO wrote: »

I suggest you see the poll in the AvA forum section. Over 90% say no caps. Minority lolz.

You might want the check the total number of votes for that poll. That's a very, very small minority, since most people probably just don't care about it. And let's be honest, nobody cared about it or noticed it in the first place until they were informed of it by ZOS.

LOL this isn't Wow where they have 7.5 million subs. 3k in this game is a lot. They can't even fill up there PvP Zones. Lot's of people are already taking a break from the game, and If I am going to put up with crap PvP I will do it where either have a good PvE game to go with it or F2P.

No matter this game is going to go F2P now that this is out.

valkaneer2b14_ESO

prana33b14_ESO wrote: »

No, what is sad is you trolling this thread without any actual responses on how GW2 style zerg balls won't become an issue. People concerned about this were concerned about it before launch. You are right I didn't notice the caps. I'm level 17 and haven't gotten to pvp at all yet because I'm so busy. What a gotcha.

I have been looking at old questions that have been asked about the AoE cap. Brian was asked over and over and over about it and never answered that question on the EJ forums. A lot of people were not happy that he did not answer it, it was very important to them. The consensus was... Well he is from DaoC and I think that is good enough to believe he won't put caps in......

Boy were they wrong.

I guess I now know why he never answered. He knew he would of lost sales. I am seeing a very very common pattern with this company.... Angry Joe had it right it seems.

nudel

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

You might want the check the total number of votes for that poll.

Over 3000. Real-life election polls where i live usually go with 1000-1200 to get a 95% accuracy(in a country with about 5 million voters).

So while it's a minority compared to the total game population, the results are certainly statistically significant.

Because comparing real-life election polls to a poll on the ESO forums makes sense?

The mere fact that nobody noticed the AoE caps and PvP still worked fine for both large and small groups is enough proof that a few people are whoefully overreacting to something they didn't even notice in the first place. It's pretty much like you prepare food for your child and the food contains a vegetable the child does not like, but the child does not notice this vegetable is in the food. Afterwards, you notify the child of the vegetable it contained and only then the child starts throwing a fit about how the food tastes horrible.

Okay let's continue with your example of hiding vegetables in a child's food. You are knowingly feeding someone something that they don't like in the hopes they won't notice. In what world is that appropriate? Why couldn't you...I dunno... make a convincing case for vegetables with that child before feeding it to them or maybe...respect their freaking choices not to eat them in the first place.

I'm sorry but that is my biggest problem with all of this. ZOS should have been upfront about the effects of skills and that is across the board (damage output, number of targets). What is the point of the tool tip if it's wildly inaccurate? Why pretend there are no AOE caps if they were always intended?

ryan.vennellb14_ESO

thelg wrote: »

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom you guys do realize that this will lead to Guild Wars 2 style Stacking?

Massive zergs moving in tight groups to dilute AOE..

Except stacking your zerg in a fight in GW2 is a guaranteed way to lose fights now. That tactic came and went a long time ago. You move or you die. It was great in theory, but caused almost instant death in practice.

Blobbing and Zerging in any game has nothing whatsoever to do with AOE caps and never will. If there was no cap, people would still zerg. If it was capped at one person...people would still zerg.

liquid_wolf

This isn't a game-breaker for me... but I do believe there shouldn't be a cap on aoe abilities that hit "around" or "target area".

If there is a circle, or range, to the ability then there shouldn't really be a cap on it. Simply shrink/grow the circle.

I understand some abilities may be imbalanced, but fixing a cap in place feels like plugging a hole instead of improving the design.

Some of those changes seem to alleviate the punishments a group of players would encounter when they decide to stand on the same spot.

50 players run through the gate at the same time... at least half of them should have some kind of damage mitigate or buff/heal to stop the aoe that is going to hit them all.

But if you instead simply limit the damage that can be done to those 50 players by a single opponent... you remove the need to plan and coordinate. You detract from the experience.

When a horde of players kills a target with Soul Shatter... why shouldn't that horde suffer from his blast? Especially if they decide to stand on the body.

Are they really not keeping themselves healed/buffed to survive it?

If 25 people with soul shatter, jump into a group of 50 and get aoe'd to death... both sides will probably be wiped out. What is the problem?

Don't kill enemy players inside your own group unless you are prepared to handle the explosions that could occur.

Or you know... spread out? Usually a good tactic in the first place.

Feidam

Instead of tantrums and threats people need to test the content on the PTS. If we can show it's broken then we can work toward getting that noticed. We've seen that they do listen to the player base. However, if I were them I'd find it very difficult to take someone's opinion when they are behaving like toddlers. It remains to be seen what overall effect this will have on pvp as ESO and GW are two totally different games. It seems ZOS is just damned if they do damned if they don't with this community.

xhrit

prana33b14_ESO wrote: »

This doesn't promote skill and coordination, other than that the group that gets the most people to stack into a ball will win and rarely lose. It becomes solely a numbers game. Sorry we want a game better than that.

Good thing siege weapons don't have a aeo cap.

Nijjion

Koloki wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Zargorius wrote: »

Well, looks like the era of siege weapons everywhere is about to start. Thanks for the info, this should have been made clear before the launch though.

Of course it should of been made more clear before launch they intended an aoe cap.

But then they wouldn't of gotten a lot of money from people who bought their gaming believing there were no AoE caps in place.

So there are people who bought the game for the sole reason that it had no AoE caps? That is the game maker/breaker mechanic?

ZOS purposefully hide that information because this was their big sales bringer?

Try not to be so over dramatic.

GW2 had ruined PvP because of caps... People are looking for a RvR game close to DAoC. Shame ESO is not gonna be that.

ChairGraveyard

AoE Caps Enable Cheating Like This:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=0hyK9tLzG5o

Get rid of AoE caps! Don't allow cheating!

prana33b14_ESO

ryan.vennellb14_ESO wrote: »

Except stacking your zerg in a fight in GW2 is a guaranteed way to lose fights now. That tactic came and went a long time ago. You move or you die. It was great in theory, but caused almost instant death in practice.

Care to explain because after seeing this post I watched some Twitch streams and looks like they are piling on commander to me still.

ryan.vennellb14_ESO wrote: »

Blobbing and Zerging in any game has nothing whatsoever to do with AOE caps and never will. If there was no cap, people would still zerg. If it was capped at one person...people would still zerg.

OK? They will always zerg but we are talking about the ability for smaller groups to be effective vs. zergs so that it is not just a population game.

Lava_Croft

nudel wrote: »

I'm sorry but that is my biggest problem with all of this. ZOS should have been upfront about the effects of skills and that is across the board (damage output, number of targets). What is the point of the tool tip if it's wildly inaccurate? Why pretend there are no AOE caps if they were always intended?

I couldn't agree more.

ChairGraveyard

Zargorius wrote: »

Well, looks like the era of siege weapons everywhere is about to start. Thanks for the info, this should have been made clear before the launch though.

Can't even place them anywhere - only around keeps/outposts. So siege is going to do nothing to stop the cheaters from abusing stacking/turtling and the AoE cap.

Nijjion

Lava_Croft wrote: »

prana33b14_ESO wrote: »

Now, are you going to keep trolling or state why you disagree with removing the caps? Disagreeing because people didn't know SOME were already capped is a pretty lol argument.

I agree with AoE caps because a group of 8 people should not be able to run into a group of 40 people, spam AoE and kill them all.

Maybe the group of 40 should be more skilled and not be noobs?

Xsorus

ryan.vennellb14_ESO wrote: »

thelg wrote: »

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom you guys do realize that this will lead to Guild Wars 2 style Stacking?

Massive zergs moving in tight groups to dilute AOE..

Except stacking your zerg in a fight in GW2 is a guaranteed way to lose fights now. That tactic came and went a long time ago. You move or you die. It was great in theory, but caused almost instant death in practice.

Blobbing and Zerging in any game has nothing whatsoever to do with AOE caps and never will. If there was no cap, people would still zerg. If it was capped at one person...people would still zerg.

A. Stacking is pretty much used entirely in Gw2 fights right now..both in Guild vs Guild and Zerg Vs Zerg....why? Because its effective and it works..What has changed? Well Use to people didn't move at all, and simply turtled all in one spot while a mesmer would port that ball around, Now the zerg simply moves in one giant train (still accomplishing the same thing) because people started throwing down Superior Arrow Carts and Aoeing on that spot.

B. Which brings me to the Superior Arrow Carts, why were they so effective on those Zerg balls? Because they have a 50 person AoE cap, unlike regular aoe which has a 5 person AoE cap...So yea....

C. Blobbing has everything to do with AoE caps, and its not the same thing as Zerging, Blobbing is the direct result of having an AoE cap and is the best way to avoid AoE by stacking on one another. Zerging is just a big mass of players that can be spread out or whatever.... Zerging will always exist...But can be countered by non AoE Capped area effect spells.... Blobbing only exists because AoE Caps, and can only be countered by removing those caps.

heartunseen

I'll just leave a question here:

If all of the AoE abilities have always had a cap, why does Cleave say the skill "[d]eals 4 Physical Damage to all enemies in front of you"?

I really hope nobody at Zenimax is wondering just why exactly players are so confused and angry about this.
Saying the tooltip is lying might be a little strong, but to say it is misleading is would be the understatement of the week.

byghostlightrwb17_ESO

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

I'll pose a question for you, and the ZoS developer team.

Why do you have AoE caps in place at all?

because they become ridiculous overpowered, and having them spammed over and over leads to very boring and unremarkable and unskillful game play. look at every single Lets Play done by Force on youtube and multiple that by an army in PVP. Love his videos but that AOE gameplay was cringeworthy.THAT.

valkaneer2b14_ESO

ChairGraveyard wrote: »

Zargorius wrote: »

Well, looks like the era of siege weapons everywhere is about to start. Thanks for the info, this should have been made clear before the launch though.

Can't even place them anywhere - only around keeps/outposts. So siege is going to do nothing to stop the cheaters from abusing stacking/turtling and the AoE cap.

^^ +1

Every time someone talks about siege weapons I keep bringing this up... Funny thing they never respond to it. That is why I know these ppl are trolls. You can prove them wrong and they just kind of ignore that and keep on BSin ppl.