Maintenance for the week of December 23:
• NA megaservers for maintenance – December 23, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EST (14:00 UTC)
• EU megaservers for maintenance – December 23, 9:00 UTC (4:00AM EST) - 14:00 UTC (9:00AM EST)
• NA megaservers for maintenance – December 23, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EST (14:00 UTC)
• EU megaservers for maintenance – December 23, 9:00 UTC (4:00AM EST) - 14:00 UTC (9:00AM EST)
Counters to all "OP" skills
cjtignub17_ESO
✭✭✭
So theres been a lot of new players complaining that certain skills are OP and after reading a lot of the threads the general consensus from most posters and myself included is that most of the people complaining about "OP" skills are really just new to PvP and haven't learned the counters yet.
The first key point is to remember that this isn't a game balanced around 1 v 1 play. Its a group game and a lot of the so called OP skills are the counters against other so called OP skills and therein lies the balance in this game. The devs have spent a lot of time over the last year in PTS balancing out skills and I think given that over a few hundred thousand people play this game and only about 100-200 are complaining about OP skills on forums this game is very well balanced.
As someone who has been playing this game for the past 5 or so months I thought I would share a lot of counters to skills that people are complaining about.
The other thing to remember is complaining that a skill is spammable isn't really a legit complaint. This game is built so that all skills should NOT have a cooldown. If you want to spam a skill like pulsar sure you may kill 10-15 people immediately but then u'll be out of magicka and u'll die rather quickly to anyone still alive.
1.) Dark Talons - People seem to be having a hard time countering DKs that use this skill especially if they drop DT and follow that with standard.
- This is actually a pretty easy combo to defeat and here are a few ways to deal with it:
a.) Sorcerer class is sort of the paper to DKs rock and have a few ways around this class
- Bolt Escape: This skill will teleport you forward even if affected by Dark Talons root
- Negate Magic: This skill will prevent the DK from casting ANYTHING including standard for more than enough time to kill him, it will also dispel them of ALL BUFFS
- Cyrstal Shard: This is how I mainly deal with DKs by sharding them keeping them knocked down. This allows me to kill them rather quickly as they cannot get their buffs up and need to waste stamina to break out of my shards
b.) Alliance War Skill Line:
- Rapid Maneuvers: This skill will remove all roots / snares on you. We tested this in group PvP yesterday this DOES REMOVE dark talons. With the morph it also grants 20 second resis to EVERYONE hit by the buff against DT. Anyone can get this skill, you only need 1 person in raid to run it.
c.) Dodge roll:
- Most don't know this but dodge roll will break you out of ALL ROOTs. just double tap in a direction to break talons. I'd recommend following this up with a stun on the DK with practice you can dodge roll and stun the DK to lead into your kill combo
d.) Immovable
- Currently Immovable has a bug and doesn't prevent root from Dark Talons. This has been reported and will hopefully be fixed soon.
2.) DK Standard
- I actually don't find this skill to be such a big deal. With an ulti reduction build you can make it so you can pretty much spam this skill continually. Unfortuantely its range is small.
- Counters:
The most obvious counter if ranged and fighting a DK is to kite the enemy. If a DK gets near you your in bad shape.
a.) Your first goal should be to get out of the standard. Roll dodge, bolt escape or elusive mist are all good options that I personally use as a sorcerer. The next goal is to kite the DK so they cannot put future standards near you.
- Some good kiting abilities are:
1.) Cyrstal shard
2.) Fire Staff Destructive touch: This spell can be cast every 1 second and knocks the DK back about 10 meters making it impossible for him to put a standard near you
3.) Scatter Shot or Arrow Spray: Both massive roots or knock backs that again make it very hard for DK to get near you.
- These are just some examples for how you can kite the DK to prevent them from putting standard down. Another option includes:
b.) Negate Magic - This will prevent them from casting any future standards while you burn them down.
So again you can see a lot of the skills that people complain of as being OP like Mist form or Negate Magic or Destro Touch spam or bolt escape are actually the counters to other abilities that people complain of as OP
3.) Bolt Escape
- Again I don't think bolt escape is that big of a deal. In a perfect world with 100% magicka you can maybe cast it 7-10 times in a row. However it is rare in a big group PvP that you will have 100% magicka. Defending this is easy
a.) Negate Magic: This will leave them a sitting duck especially if they already cast one now they are in negate magic with no magicka regen for 5 seconds
b.) Elusive Mist: This ability will give u 40% run speed to nearly keep up with the bolt escaper. Remember after their run of 7 or so escapes they are completely out of magicka with NO regain for 5 seconds and again sitting ducks
c.) Mount: Your mount with run speed buff can not only keep up with bolt escape but actually out run it. Mostly Harmless was kind enough to make a video showing new players how to combat bolt escape using this counter
d.) DK chain pull: Another great instant death move on bolters. Pulling them to you will leave them sitting next to you with no magicka regen and thus an easy target
4.) Negate Magic
- This is def a very very powerful ability. It does however have a high ultimate cost so even with very high ultimate reduction its hard to get this ability spammable. Although you can almost get it there with Ultimate gain on damage buff and Alliance war passive (and ultimate reduction cost). Emperors can prob get this spammable easily.
a.) The only way to counter this spell is to dodge roll out of the negate field. I try to dodge out of it since that seems the fastest quick burst of movement I can get and then bolt to the negater or cast a knockback/knockdown on them. That turns the tables quickly.
b.) DK chain pull is a great ability if they are sitting in the negate field to help pull the enemy out
5.) Nova
- Ok this is a hard ability to counter. With synergy and any good group has a healer whos job it is to activate synergies so they all hit this can really mess up your raid especially if comboed with a negate magic and standard.
Counters:
a.) Immovable will make you immune to the CC
b.) If you miss that you can quickly hit interrupt to break it
c.) Purge: This is the main counter for Nova. You must have 1 person running purge for every 4-5 in your pvp group.
6.) Pulsar Spam
- Its a decent tactic to have an organized group spam pulsar. Was really good in beta when pulsar HP debuff stack. Defending against this though is rather easy
a.) FIrst you an assume that all those spamming pulsar are probably sorcs with critical surge and a high crit rate. Thus pulsar not only damages you but heals them 100-200 per person it hits and with a 50% crit rate this is a substantial heal the spammer is getting every second
Counters:
a.) Bolt Escape - This is one of my favorite ways to counter pulsar spam, you can just BE through the middle of the 1 button mashing noob and stun them. Also it allows you to quickly enter and exit pulsar range.
b.) Your group needs to spread out and drop AOEs on the enemy. When soemoen is spamming an ability like pulsar you must kite them to beat them
c.) Negate Magic works wonders as it will also remove the critical surge buff they have on them.
d.) Nova is very helpful against pulsar spammers. It will drop their dmg by 30%
e.) Arrow Spray: Great skill for pulsar spammers it will root them all making it very easy for your team to kite them and drop aoes on top of the spammers.
7.) Vampire Ultimate
- The main thing with vampires to realize is that while they have a decent ultimate and they can cast it rather frequently they are also extremely extremely weak. They are in essance a glass cannon in the purest sense. It makes sense to me why this strategy is effective against a random noobie zerg but against any organized pvp group even 2-3 vamps spamming ultimate end up with a near instant death.
a.) A lot of the strategies used to defeat pulsar spam can be used here against vampires so read those above. They do get heals just like the pulsar spammers get. Again the MOST IMPORTANT THING IS TO KITE them. Abilities like Pulsar and Vampire Ultimate are the defense against melees. Without these abilities melees would run the show. Having abilities like this keeps a good balance between ranged and melee superiority.
b.) Silver Bolts is your friend. This is the secret to beating that vampire that runs into your group and drops his ultimate. Bolts will knock him down for 3 seconds and has a 5% chance to insta kill him
c.) Root / Stuns: theres hundreds pick ur favorite and hit him with it to keep them at bay.
d.) Negate Magic: Makes it impossible for them to cast ultimate
e.) Dark Talons: What do you know Dark Talons can root the enemy and does fire damage to them. Standard on top will cut their healing in half and nova will cut their damage
If they combo Vampire Ultimate with Mist Form personally I find that rather silly it does give them immunity to snares however it nerfs the damage they can put out making it nearly impossible for them to actually get any kills against a legitimate enemy group. Bat Swarm no longer heals in mist form.
Counters:
a.) Negate Magic again is one of the best counters to the above
b.) Templar or Resto Staff. This is your main counter. With the above combo they will be doing 0 dmg in mist form (or 300 dmg / 5 seconds if they pick poision cloud, the skill is bugged and doesn't do dmg appropriately) and 200 dmg / second with bat swarm. A templar or resto staff user can easily out heal this using GTAOEs such as healing springs. Rembmer healing springs stack and 2 of them will do 200 aoe heals/sec.
c.) Now, they still take 25% dmg while in mist form with the weakness to fire tahts actually 37.5% dmg they take and they cannot get ANY HEALS. just keep DPSing them and out heal bat swarm which is easy to do. They will be dead in about 5-6 seconds.
These are just some skills that people have called OP. There are others such as Snipe, Mark Target, Bash, and so forth.
Whats interesting is that the 200 - 300 people complaining about the above skills clearly have access to 25-50% of the above other abilities that they can use to counter the skill they consider OP. And within their PvP zergs they have access to all of the above abilities. So remember this game is balanced for group PvP. You cannot scream nerf bolt escape or Elusive Mist because then Dark Talons becomes even harder to deal with. The GMs would have to nerf like 15 abilities if even one of the above abilities is touched....
Last comment if sorcs and DKs are going to spec for vamp ultimate reduction I don't see an issue with that. In order to do so you have to rather significantly gimp your character so theres pros and cons to each side of the argument.
On the pro side you have an ultimate you can cast a few times during a fight.
On the con side you:
1.) are now weak to the entire fighters guild line
2.) take 50% extra damage to fire
3.) NONE of the vamp passives currently work
4.) You have to wear sword and board which is terrible for sorcs
5.) You also have to wear 1 piece of heavy armor and a 3 piece other set which prevents you from utilizing the best sets in game. Also light armor bonuses >>> heavy armor for sorcs.
6.) In PvE you literally get 1 hit ALL THE TIME
-Koreander
VR7 Sorcerer, former vampire
PvP Officer of Primal Instinct Gaming Services Network
www.primalinstinct.info/esohome
Edited by cjtignub17_ESO on 25 April 2014 21:43 The first key point is to remember that this isn't a game balanced around 1 v 1 play. Its a group game and a lot of the so called OP skills are the counters against other so called OP skills and therein lies the balance in this game. The devs have spent a lot of time over the last year in PTS balancing out skills and I think given that over a few hundred thousand people play this game and only about 100-200 are complaining about OP skills on forums this game is very well balanced.
As someone who has been playing this game for the past 5 or so months I thought I would share a lot of counters to skills that people are complaining about.
The other thing to remember is complaining that a skill is spammable isn't really a legit complaint. This game is built so that all skills should NOT have a cooldown. If you want to spam a skill like pulsar sure you may kill 10-15 people immediately but then u'll be out of magicka and u'll die rather quickly to anyone still alive.
1.) Dark Talons - People seem to be having a hard time countering DKs that use this skill especially if they drop DT and follow that with standard.
- This is actually a pretty easy combo to defeat and here are a few ways to deal with it:
a.) Sorcerer class is sort of the paper to DKs rock and have a few ways around this class
- Bolt Escape: This skill will teleport you forward even if affected by Dark Talons root
- Negate Magic: This skill will prevent the DK from casting ANYTHING including standard for more than enough time to kill him, it will also dispel them of ALL BUFFS
- Cyrstal Shard: This is how I mainly deal with DKs by sharding them keeping them knocked down. This allows me to kill them rather quickly as they cannot get their buffs up and need to waste stamina to break out of my shards
b.) Alliance War Skill Line:
- Rapid Maneuvers: This skill will remove all roots / snares on you. We tested this in group PvP yesterday this DOES REMOVE dark talons. With the morph it also grants 20 second resis to EVERYONE hit by the buff against DT. Anyone can get this skill, you only need 1 person in raid to run it.
c.) Dodge roll:
- Most don't know this but dodge roll will break you out of ALL ROOTs. just double tap in a direction to break talons. I'd recommend following this up with a stun on the DK with practice you can dodge roll and stun the DK to lead into your kill combo
d.) Immovable
- Currently Immovable has a bug and doesn't prevent root from Dark Talons. This has been reported and will hopefully be fixed soon.
2.) DK Standard
- I actually don't find this skill to be such a big deal. With an ulti reduction build you can make it so you can pretty much spam this skill continually. Unfortuantely its range is small.
- Counters:
The most obvious counter if ranged and fighting a DK is to kite the enemy. If a DK gets near you your in bad shape.
a.) Your first goal should be to get out of the standard. Roll dodge, bolt escape or elusive mist are all good options that I personally use as a sorcerer. The next goal is to kite the DK so they cannot put future standards near you.
- Some good kiting abilities are:
1.) Cyrstal shard
2.) Fire Staff Destructive touch: This spell can be cast every 1 second and knocks the DK back about 10 meters making it impossible for him to put a standard near you
3.) Scatter Shot or Arrow Spray: Both massive roots or knock backs that again make it very hard for DK to get near you.
- These are just some examples for how you can kite the DK to prevent them from putting standard down. Another option includes:
b.) Negate Magic - This will prevent them from casting any future standards while you burn them down.
So again you can see a lot of the skills that people complain of as being OP like Mist form or Negate Magic or Destro Touch spam or bolt escape are actually the counters to other abilities that people complain of as OP
3.) Bolt Escape
- Again I don't think bolt escape is that big of a deal. In a perfect world with 100% magicka you can maybe cast it 7-10 times in a row. However it is rare in a big group PvP that you will have 100% magicka. Defending this is easy
a.) Negate Magic: This will leave them a sitting duck especially if they already cast one now they are in negate magic with no magicka regen for 5 seconds
b.) Elusive Mist: This ability will give u 40% run speed to nearly keep up with the bolt escaper. Remember after their run of 7 or so escapes they are completely out of magicka with NO regain for 5 seconds and again sitting ducks
c.) Mount: Your mount with run speed buff can not only keep up with bolt escape but actually out run it. Mostly Harmless was kind enough to make a video showing new players how to combat bolt escape using this counter
d.) DK chain pull: Another great instant death move on bolters. Pulling them to you will leave them sitting next to you with no magicka regen and thus an easy target
4.) Negate Magic
- This is def a very very powerful ability. It does however have a high ultimate cost so even with very high ultimate reduction its hard to get this ability spammable. Although you can almost get it there with Ultimate gain on damage buff and Alliance war passive (and ultimate reduction cost). Emperors can prob get this spammable easily.
a.) The only way to counter this spell is to dodge roll out of the negate field. I try to dodge out of it since that seems the fastest quick burst of movement I can get and then bolt to the negater or cast a knockback/knockdown on them. That turns the tables quickly.
b.) DK chain pull is a great ability if they are sitting in the negate field to help pull the enemy out
5.) Nova
- Ok this is a hard ability to counter. With synergy and any good group has a healer whos job it is to activate synergies so they all hit this can really mess up your raid especially if comboed with a negate magic and standard.
Counters:
a.) Immovable will make you immune to the CC
b.) If you miss that you can quickly hit interrupt to break it
c.) Purge: This is the main counter for Nova. You must have 1 person running purge for every 4-5 in your pvp group.
6.) Pulsar Spam
- Its a decent tactic to have an organized group spam pulsar. Was really good in beta when pulsar HP debuff stack. Defending against this though is rather easy
a.) FIrst you an assume that all those spamming pulsar are probably sorcs with critical surge and a high crit rate. Thus pulsar not only damages you but heals them 100-200 per person it hits and with a 50% crit rate this is a substantial heal the spammer is getting every second
Counters:
a.) Bolt Escape - This is one of my favorite ways to counter pulsar spam, you can just BE through the middle of the 1 button mashing noob and stun them. Also it allows you to quickly enter and exit pulsar range.
b.) Your group needs to spread out and drop AOEs on the enemy. When soemoen is spamming an ability like pulsar you must kite them to beat them
c.) Negate Magic works wonders as it will also remove the critical surge buff they have on them.
d.) Nova is very helpful against pulsar spammers. It will drop their dmg by 30%
e.) Arrow Spray: Great skill for pulsar spammers it will root them all making it very easy for your team to kite them and drop aoes on top of the spammers.
7.) Vampire Ultimate
- The main thing with vampires to realize is that while they have a decent ultimate and they can cast it rather frequently they are also extremely extremely weak. They are in essance a glass cannon in the purest sense. It makes sense to me why this strategy is effective against a random noobie zerg but against any organized pvp group even 2-3 vamps spamming ultimate end up with a near instant death.
a.) A lot of the strategies used to defeat pulsar spam can be used here against vampires so read those above. They do get heals just like the pulsar spammers get. Again the MOST IMPORTANT THING IS TO KITE them. Abilities like Pulsar and Vampire Ultimate are the defense against melees. Without these abilities melees would run the show. Having abilities like this keeps a good balance between ranged and melee superiority.
b.) Silver Bolts is your friend. This is the secret to beating that vampire that runs into your group and drops his ultimate. Bolts will knock him down for 3 seconds and has a 5% chance to insta kill him
c.) Root / Stuns: theres hundreds pick ur favorite and hit him with it to keep them at bay.
d.) Negate Magic: Makes it impossible for them to cast ultimate
e.) Dark Talons: What do you know Dark Talons can root the enemy and does fire damage to them. Standard on top will cut their healing in half and nova will cut their damage
If they combo Vampire Ultimate with Mist Form personally I find that rather silly it does give them immunity to snares however it nerfs the damage they can put out making it nearly impossible for them to actually get any kills against a legitimate enemy group. Bat Swarm no longer heals in mist form.
Counters:
a.) Negate Magic again is one of the best counters to the above
b.) Templar or Resto Staff. This is your main counter. With the above combo they will be doing 0 dmg in mist form (or 300 dmg / 5 seconds if they pick poision cloud, the skill is bugged and doesn't do dmg appropriately) and 200 dmg / second with bat swarm. A templar or resto staff user can easily out heal this using GTAOEs such as healing springs. Rembmer healing springs stack and 2 of them will do 200 aoe heals/sec.
c.) Now, they still take 25% dmg while in mist form with the weakness to fire tahts actually 37.5% dmg they take and they cannot get ANY HEALS. just keep DPSing them and out heal bat swarm which is easy to do. They will be dead in about 5-6 seconds.
These are just some skills that people have called OP. There are others such as Snipe, Mark Target, Bash, and so forth.
Whats interesting is that the 200 - 300 people complaining about the above skills clearly have access to 25-50% of the above other abilities that they can use to counter the skill they consider OP. And within their PvP zergs they have access to all of the above abilities. So remember this game is balanced for group PvP. You cannot scream nerf bolt escape or Elusive Mist because then Dark Talons becomes even harder to deal with. The GMs would have to nerf like 15 abilities if even one of the above abilities is touched....
Last comment if sorcs and DKs are going to spec for vamp ultimate reduction I don't see an issue with that. In order to do so you have to rather significantly gimp your character so theres pros and cons to each side of the argument.
On the pro side you have an ultimate you can cast a few times during a fight.
On the con side you:
1.) are now weak to the entire fighters guild line
2.) take 50% extra damage to fire
3.) NONE of the vamp passives currently work
4.) You have to wear sword and board which is terrible for sorcs
5.) You also have to wear 1 piece of heavy armor and a 3 piece other set which prevents you from utilizing the best sets in game. Also light armor bonuses >>> heavy armor for sorcs.
6.) In PvE you literally get 1 hit ALL THE TIME
-Koreander
VR7 Sorcerer, former vampire
PvP Officer of Primal Instinct Gaming Services Network
www.primalinstinct.info/esohome
13
-
YuccaPalm✭✭✭How do you hit Silverbolts on a vamp who is invisible?
You said none of the vamp passives work. Supernatural recovery seems to work for me.Edited by YuccaPalm on 25 April 2014 22:140 -
LadyChaos✭✭✭✭This is a great post! I can't "awesome" this enough.
That is exactly how I use my skills to counter DK,Vamps (what I focus on),etc, and how people counter my own abilities, as a sorcerer.
Focus more on the global alliance warfare not the 1v1. I go for the players I counter well, and the ones who counter me are on me like glue in return...VR2 Ataxia - [NA] Veteran Dominion Sorcerer [Auriel's Bow]
PvP, PvE, Crafting, and General Shenanigans
Sorcery and Mayhem online since 1999
Current PvP Class/Supernatural Census2 -
JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO✭✭✭✭Bolt escape morph lets them keep mana.
Bolt escape + Dark conversion for forced mana.
Bolt escape only stops mana regain not stamina regain.0 -
cjtignub17_ESO✭✭✭How do you hit Silverbolts on a vamp who is invisible?
You said none of the vamp passives work. Supernatural recovery seems to work for me.
Die to a mob and respawn and then see if supernatural recovery works. It won't. The only way to make it work again is to re-zone or relog (however that will bug your ultimate cost reduction).
See here:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/76636/dark-stalker-passive-is-broken-vampire-skill-line
That bug he is talking about is actually for all the passives0 -
cjtignub17_ESO✭✭✭To kill vamps that are "invisible" use AOEs. The invis morph though really is the weaker of the two morphs in my opinion if you are going to go with a low ultimate cost build. I felt the HP recovery gave me better survivability0
-
Kolache✭✭✭✭cjtignub17_ESO wrote: »3.) Bolt Escape
- Again I don't think bolt escape is that big of a deal. In a perfect world with 100% magicka you can maybe cast it 7-10 times in a row. However it is rare in a big group PvP that you will have 100% magicka. Defending this is easy
a.) Negate Magic: This will leave them a sitting duck especially if they already cast one now they are in negate magic with no magicka regen for 5 seconds
b.) Elusive Mist: This ability will give u 40% run speed to nearly keep up with the bolt escaper. Remember after their run of 7 or so escapes they are completely out of magicka with NO regain for 5 seconds and again sitting ducks
c.) Mount: Your mount with run speed buff can not only keep up with bolt escape but actually out run it. Mostly Harmless was kind enough to make a video showing new players how to combat bolt escape using this counter
d.) DK chain pull: Another great instant death move on bolters. Pulling them to you will leave them sitting next to you with no magicka regen and thus an easy target
Not to derail your attempt at a helpful thread, but could you elaborate on a couple of these points?
Regarding mounts; how are they useful when you can't mount in combat, and anyone using bolt escape can mount whenever you can mount out of combat? Are you talking about riding up on a Sorc that's already in the process of eluding some zerg chasing them?
Regarding DK chain pull; since this ability is subject to hard CC immunity, what do you suppose is keeping them "sitting next to you" after you pull them? If they've bolted more than once than you couldn't have pulled them anyway. If they've only bolted once, they have plenty of bolts left in them after they are immune.
So you're left with Negate Magic, (an ultimate from the class that can already bolt escape to catch bolt escape), and Mist Form, which is probably the only other ability in the game that is considered to be as/more OP than Bolt Escape...
Only bothering to inquire since you seem to be more constructive than the average defender of the current state of the game, (that's a compliment if it didn't sound like one).Something being unbalanced in 1v1 does not imply that it is balanced in group play.2 -
LilMcGinley✭✭As an Orc Sorc, I am faster than most mounts even when carrying a scroll so that's out of the question.0
-
LadyChaos✭✭✭✭cjtignub17_ESO wrote: »3.) Bolt Escape
- Again I don't think bolt escape is that big of a deal. In a perfect world with 100% magicka you can maybe cast it 7-10 times in a row. However it is rare in a big group PvP that you will have 100% magicka. Defending this is easy
a.) Negate Magic: This will leave them a sitting duck especially if they already cast one now they are in negate magic with no magicka regen for 5 seconds
b.) Elusive Mist: This ability will give u 40% run speed to nearly keep up with the bolt escaper. Remember after their run of 7 or so escapes they are completely out of magicka with NO regain for 5 seconds and again sitting ducks
c.) Mount: Your mount with run speed buff can not only keep up with bolt escape but actually out run it. Mostly Harmless was kind enough to make a video showing new players how to combat bolt escape using this counter
d.) DK chain pull: Another great instant death move on bolters. Pulling them to you will leave them sitting next to you with no magicka regen and thus an easy target
Not to derail your attempt at a helpful thread, but could you elaborate on a couple of these points?
Regarding mounts; how are they useful when you can't mount in combat, and anyone using bolt escape can mount whenever you can mount out of combat? Are you talking about riding up on a Sorc that's already in the process of eluding some zerg chasing them?
Regarding DK chain pull; since this ability is subject to hard CC immunity, what do you suppose is keeping them "sitting next to you" after you pull them? If they've bolted more than once than you couldn't have pulled them anyway. If they've only bolted once, they have plenty of bolts left in them after they are immune.
So you're left with Negate Magic, (an ultimate from the class that can already bolt escape to catch bolt escape), and Mist Form, which is probably the only other ability in the game that is considered to be as/more OP than Bolt Escape...
Only bothering to inquire since you seem to be more constructive than the average defender of the current state of the game, (that's a compliment if it didn't sound like one).
If you are 1v1 a bolting sorc, yes you can get on horse same time... I was run across the entire DC side of the zone today this way. 1 player just could not handle me getting away (allthough I never engaged he saw me on a hilltop scouting) he followed me from gate to the keep SW of ash.. after I had tried to circle around twice and rejoin my crew. Every time he got on his horse a good 10s before I did because we are focused on our stamina/magic regen not out of combat in this case. It is a lot of micro work to get away. I watch power tick to 300 to try squeeze in a tiny bit more distance, then turn sta into power... he catches up... bolt bolt.. turn less sta into power... hes closer... bolt... no sta left, potions getting expensive etc... I went through 15 mana potions he caught upto me 4 times. If I had power I would have fought, but no power which is why I ran in first place. I only survived because I got my ult to tick in time to escape one last time, and he made a couple mistakes. He had horned helmet and a 2h sword...(I think he was dk vamp because he misted and chained) I was so focused I didn't even get name. Also if we heal during the run it keeps us in combat longer than the chaser.
If you are running down a bolting sorce on horse we have to seriously pull tricks out of the bag to get away as we use all of our power to get as far ahead as we did, and you get off the horse full power... I never outrun a horse (even the slowest horse). I only get away if the pursuer made mistakes, like tried to cast on me as soon as I was in range rather than run me down.
It's rarely another mage that kills me, but negate magic is often what caused it. Negate magic keeps us from evening being able to flee in first place. It's why it's the first thing I do to a group when we spring, to keep sorcy/vamps from fleeing and have to run them down. I see DK/Sorc/Vamp I drop a bubble on them so my friends can kill them. I don't wait. Yes sorcy's counter each other in this case.
IMO it's about your team has sorcy, vamps DK, temp, KB etc etc... my team has them too. The one who wins is the one whos players know their own strengths/weaknesses and who they should focus on, rather than trying to 1v1 along the outskirts. And to know who to steer clear of.VR2 Ataxia - [NA] Veteran Dominion Sorcerer [Auriel's Bow]
PvP, PvE, Crafting, and General Shenanigans Sorcery and Mayhem online since 1999
Current PvP Class/Supernatural Census1 -
lao✭✭✭✭cjtignub17_ESO wrote: »So theres been a lot of new players complaining that certain skills are OP and after reading a lot of the threads the general consensus from most posters and myself included is that most of the people complaining about "OP" skills are really just new to PvP and haven't learned the counters yet.
The first key point is to remember that this isn't a game balanced around 1 v 1 play. Its a group game and a lot of the so called OP skills are the counters against other so called OP skills and therein lies the balance in this game. The devs have spent a lot of time over the last year in PTS balancing out skills and I think given that over a few hundred thousand people play this game and only about 100-200 are complaining about OP skills on forums this game is very well balanced.
As someone who has been playing this game for the past 5 or so months I thought I would share a lot of counters to skills that people are complaining about.
The other thing to remember is complaining that a skill is spammable isn't really a legit complaint. This game is built so that all skills should NOT have a cooldown. If you want to spam a skill like pulsar sure you may kill 10-15 people immediately but then u'll be out of magicka and u'll die rather quickly to anyone still alive.
1.) Dark Talons - People seem to be having a hard time countering DKs that use this skill especially if they drop DT and follow that with standard.
- This is actually a pretty easy combo to defeat and here are a few ways to deal with it:
a.) Sorcerer class is sort of the paper to DKs rock and have a few ways around this class
- Bolt Escape: This skill will teleport you forward even if affected by Dark Talons root
- Negate Magic: This skill will prevent the DK from casting ANYTHING including standard for more than enough time to kill him, it will also dispel them of ALL BUFFS
- Cyrstal Shard: This is how I mainly deal with DKs by sharding them keeping them knocked down. This allows me to kill them rather quickly as they cannot get their buffs up and need to waste stamina to break out of my shards
b.) Alliance War Skill Line:
- Rapid Maneuvers: This skill will remove all roots / snares on you. We tested this in group PvP yesterday this DOES REMOVE dark talons. With the morph it also grants 20 second resis to EVERYONE hit by the buff against DT. Anyone can get this skill, you only need 1 person in raid to run it.
c.) Dodge roll:
- Most don't know this but dodge roll will break you out of ALL ROOTs. just double tap in a direction to break talons. I'd recommend following this up with a stun on the DK with practice you can dodge roll and stun the DK to lead into your kill combo
d.) Immovable
- Currently Immovable has a bug and doesn't prevent root from Dark Talons. This has been reported and will hopefully be fixed soon.
2.) DK Standard
- I actually don't find this skill to be such a big deal. With an ulti reduction build you can make it so you can pretty much spam this skill continually. Unfortuantely its range is small.
- Counters:
The most obvious counter if ranged and fighting a DK is to kite the enemy. If a DK gets near you your in bad shape.
a.) Your first goal should be to get out of the standard. Roll dodge, bolt escape or elusive mist are all good options that I personally use as a sorcerer. The next goal is to kite the DK so they cannot put future standards near you.
- Some good kiting abilities are:
1.) Cyrstal shard
2.) Fire Staff Destructive touch: This spell can be cast every 1 second and knocks the DK back about 10 meters making it impossible for him to put a standard near you
3.) Scatter Shot or Arrow Spray: Both massive roots or knock backs that again make it very hard for DK to get near you.
- These are just some examples for how you can kite the DK to prevent them from putting standard down. Another option includes:
b.) Negate Magic - This will prevent them from casting any future standards while you burn them down.
So again you can see a lot of the skills that people complain of as being OP like Mist form or Negate Magic or Destro Touch spam or bolt escape are actually the counters to other abilities that people complain of as OP
3.) Bolt Escape
- Again I don't think bolt escape is that big of a deal. In a perfect world with 100% magicka you can maybe cast it 7-10 times in a row. However it is rare in a big group PvP that you will have 100% magicka. Defending this is easy
a.) Negate Magic: This will leave them a sitting duck especially if they already cast one now they are in negate magic with no magicka regen for 5 seconds
b.) Elusive Mist: This ability will give u 40% run speed to nearly keep up with the bolt escaper. Remember after their run of 7 or so escapes they are completely out of magicka with NO regain for 5 seconds and again sitting ducks
c.) Mount: Your mount with run speed buff can not only keep up with bolt escape but actually out run it. Mostly Harmless was kind enough to make a video showing new players how to combat bolt escape using this counter
d.) DK chain pull: Another great instant death move on bolters. Pulling them to you will leave them sitting next to you with no magicka regen and thus an easy target
4.) Negate Magic
- This is def a very very powerful ability. It does however have a high ultimate cost so even with very high ultimate reduction its hard to get this ability spammable. Although you can almost get it there with Ultimate gain on damage buff and Alliance war passive (and ultimate reduction cost). Emperors can prob get this spammable easily.
a.) The only way to counter this spell is to dodge roll out of the negate field. I try to dodge out of it since that seems the fastest quick burst of movement I can get and then bolt to the negater or cast a knockback/knockdown on them. That turns the tables quickly.
b.) DK chain pull is a great ability if they are sitting in the negate field to help pull the enemy out
5.) Nova
- Ok this is a hard ability to counter. With synergy and any good group has a healer whos job it is to activate synergies so they all hit this can really mess up your raid especially if comboed with a negate magic and standard.
Counters:
a.) Immovable will make you immune to the CC
b.) If you miss that you can quickly hit interrupt to break it
c.) Purge: This is the main counter for Nova. You must have 1 person running purge for every 4-5 in your pvp group.
6.) Pulsar Spam
- Its a decent tactic to have an organized group spam pulsar. Was really good in beta when pulsar HP debuff stack. Defending against this though is rather easy
a.) FIrst you an assume that all those spamming pulsar are probably sorcs with critical surge and a high crit rate. Thus pulsar not only damages you but heals them 100-200 per person it hits and with a 50% crit rate this is a substantial heal the spammer is getting every second
Counters:
a.) Bolt Escape - This is one of my favorite ways to counter pulsar spam, you can just BE through the middle of the 1 button mashing noob and stun them. Also it allows you to quickly enter and exit pulsar range.
b.) Your group needs to spread out and drop AOEs on the enemy. When soemoen is spamming an ability like pulsar you must kite them to beat them
c.) Negate Magic works wonders as it will also remove the critical surge buff they have on them.
d.) Nova is very helpful against pulsar spammers. It will drop their dmg by 30%
e.) Arrow Spray: Great skill for pulsar spammers it will root them all making it very easy for your team to kite them and drop aoes on top of the spammers.
7.) Vampire Ultimate
- The main thing with vampires to realize is that while they have a decent ultimate and they can cast it rather frequently they are also extremely extremely weak. They are in essance a glass cannon in the purest sense. It makes sense to me why this strategy is effective against a random noobie zerg but against any organized pvp group even 2-3 vamps spamming ultimate end up with a near instant death.
a.) A lot of the strategies used to defeat pulsar spam can be used here against vampires so read those above. They do get heals just like the pulsar spammers get. Again the MOST IMPORTANT THING IS TO KITE them. Abilities like Pulsar and Vampire Ultimate are the defense against melees. Without these abilities melees would run the show. Having abilities like this keeps a good balance between ranged and melee superiority.
b.) Silver Bolts is your friend. This is the secret to beating that vampire that runs into your group and drops his ultimate. Bolts will knock him down for 3 seconds and has a 5% chance to insta kill him
c.) Root / Stuns: theres hundreds pick ur favorite and hit him with it to keep them at bay.
d.) Negate Magic: Makes it impossible for them to cast ultimate
e.) Dark Talons: What do you know Dark Talons can root the enemy and does fire damage to them. Standard on top will cut their healing in half and nova will cut their damage
If they combo Vampire Ultimate with Mist Form personally I find that rather silly it does give them immunity to snares however it nerfs the damage they can put out making it nearly impossible for them to actually get any kills against a legitimate enemy group. Bat Swarm no longer heals in mist form.
Counters:
a.) Negate Magic again is one of the best counters to the above
b.) Templar or Resto Staff. This is your main counter. With the above combo they will be doing 0 dmg in mist form (or 300 dmg / 5 seconds if they pick poision cloud, the skill is bugged and doesn't do dmg appropriately) and 200 dmg / second with bat swarm. A templar or resto staff user can easily out heal this using GTAOEs such as healing springs. Rembmer healing springs stack and 2 of them will do 200 aoe heals/sec.
c.) Now, they still take 25% dmg while in mist form with the weakness to fire tahts actually 37.5% dmg they take and they cannot get ANY HEALS. just keep DPSing them and out heal bat swarm which is easy to do. They will be dead in about 5-6 seconds.
These are just some skills that people have called OP. There are others such as Snipe, Mark Target, Bash, and so forth.
Whats interesting is that the 200 - 300 people complaining about the above skills clearly have access to 25-50% of the above other abilities that they can use to counter the skill they consider OP. And within their PvP zergs they have access to all of the above abilities. So remember this game is balanced for group PvP. You cannot scream nerf bolt escape or Elusive Mist because then Dark Talons becomes even harder to deal with. The GMs would have to nerf like 15 abilities if even one of the above abilities is touched....
Last comment if sorcs and DKs are going to spec for vamp ultimate reduction I don't see an issue with that. In order to do so you have to rather significantly gimp your character so theres pros and cons to each side of the argument.
On the pro side you have an ultimate you can cast a few times during a fight.
On the con side you:
1.) are now weak to the entire fighters guild line
2.) take 50% extra damage to fire
3.) NONE of the vamp passives currently work
4.) You have to wear sword and board which is terrible for sorcs
5.) You also have to wear 1 piece of heavy armor and a 3 piece other set which prevents you from utilizing the best sets in game. Also light armor bonuses >>> heavy armor for sorcs.
6.) In PvE you literally get 1 hit ALL THE TIME
-Koreander
VR7 Sorcerer, former vampire
PvP Officer of Primal Instinct Gaming Services Network
www.primalinstinct.info/esohome
some good points but ur entire post is basically about how one OP class (DK) cancels out another OP class (sorc) and vice versa. so if u dont want any of those abilitys nerfed then we need some insane buffs to NB´s cos right now they cant do anything against a none braindead dk and have an extremely hard time vs a none braindead sorc too.
and just fyi having everyone throwing OP abilities around isnt balance thats simply *** game design. the proper solution would be to nerf all of them very very hard so fights last longer and are more about individual skill. longer fights means more opportunities to do mistakes = higher skill ceiling.
also you never ever balance a game for zerg vs zerg. seriously never. the ppl who run in zergs pretty much all lack any sort of skill or talent and wont even understand what is going on anyways. so balancing for them is just stupid. ppl who understand the game will not run in zergs. thats a fact. u balance a game for small scale combat. 1v1 up to 10v10 while 1v1 has far less priority than 10vs10 usually. tho in a game like eso where you have extremely much freedom in building ur char it almost makes more sense to balance specifically for 1v1 cos if u balance skillines against each other it works for basically any scale of combat.
right now large scale pvp is all about stacking aoes which is pretty much the most horrible design ive ever seen. it drops the skill ceiling below zero. i could train a batch of monkeys to farm the zergs in pvp atm, thats how easy large scale combat is in eso.
what u want instead is ALOT less potent aoe capabilitys and have some LONG (minimum 30-40secs) duration aoe mezzes that can be cast on range. then u add a single target demezz skill to ONE class. having this alone would raise the skill ceiling of this game by about 5000% (no exaggaration here)
suddenly u have to think of positioning/how to inc an opponent group. not splitting up on inc will be very punishable. u have to think who u wanna demezz first and ofc u need a skilled CCer to land CC on ur opponent group before they land it on you. however in order to make this work the entire CC immunity system has to be reworked. 5 secs immunity is a joke even in the current state of the game. make it 1 min. have different immunities for stun/mezz/root aswell and remove that silly CC break mechanic completely.
to conclude the whole balance discussion i suggest you to watch this vid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxBlMayv12M
it doesnt matter if the ppl he is fighting are mostly noobs that dont rly know anything.
the player in that vid isnt exactly gods gift to gaming either. all he does is spam talons and bat swarm while holding block down and occasionally bash some1 to death.
but even if he was lionel messi of eso he should not be able to run solo into 100 ppl and survive. that is just broken as hell and needs to be fixed. there is nothing you could say about possible counters that would make this right.
PS: by his music choice u can tell that even he himself agrees on that one.Edited by lao on 26 April 2014 02:203 -
Kolache✭✭✭✭People use the "balanced for group not 1v1" argument way too much. If people were complaining about powerful synergies, I would understand. If Sorc bolt issues were due to another class buffing their mana regen, enabling their shenanigans, then I would understand. The "if a zerg focuses me I die" or "my class can counter my class" doesn't speak anything about group balance.
People aren't talking about classes with high mitigation being immortal because squishies with superior healing abilities are healing them while attackers trying to take down the healers are getting CC'ed. Escaping is useful to everyone. Handily soloing other players is something everyone wants to be able to do. You don't have to take anything away from the group game every time you balance an ability.
...and who in the world thinks that there won't be any balancing to be done on a brand new MMO?Something being unbalanced in 1v1 does not imply that it is balanced in group play.0 -
LadyChaos✭✭✭✭Escaping is useful to everyone.
"everyone" has access to an even better ability than sorc, but focus on sorc. Sorc trades Armor, and 2+ spots to be able to viably use this ability. There are not Heavy armor sword and board sorcerers escaping en masse. It is a squishy magic regen/STA heavy sorc build, not a tanking sorc, not a primary healing sorc, not a summoner sorc. It is a specific sorc build direction that even makes it viable on the scale described in PvP.
It isn't about synergies. It's about each person playing their desired role. I hunt vampires and DK.. I'm fast and I counter their powerful abilities. I'm extremely ridiculously weak to stun and anything that causes me to use STA pool like block and stun break. My same ability to counter those classes makes me also weak to some of their builds in return, as mentioned by OP.
All a DK needs to do is stop me from moving for 2s and he's got me. Bolt sorc can never stop moving, ever, we are twitchy and always moving. Not unless you want to risk being stunned in spot. It is a high magic cost. It's not just about the escape. You see us standing still just casting in one place, no. We are on the move constantly, because pause = dead. Bolt at full reduction passives is the second most expensive spell on my entire bar including my AoE, insta nuke that insta kills low targets. The only thing that costs more is the def spell on bar and barely. It's not free escape there is a significant trade.
Synergy is a factor for counter. It is not expecting to counter everyone's "power" alone. I can't kill the DK outright, but I can stop him. I can't kill the bolt sorc, but I can catch him, slow him, I can't stop the vamp but I can catch them, slow them... I'm built to counter their speed and AoE ravaging power, just like they counter my own speed and escape and mobility.
When a sorc bolts away or a vamp.. who are the people that catch them, who are the ones who kill them? We have no problem killing each other for being on the wrong team. It is alliance vs alliance not class vs class or 1v1.VR2 Ataxia - [NA] Veteran Dominion Sorcerer [Auriel's Bow]
PvP, PvE, Crafting, and General Shenanigans Sorcery and Mayhem online since 1999
Current PvP Class/Supernatural Census0 -
Kolache✭✭✭✭@LadyChaos
You really give yourself too much credit for your "twitchy" gameplay. You're not a surgical strike fighter, you're simply a glass cannon that has too much mobility due to a poorly balanced ability. I'm glad you feel like you're filling a role based on your perceived strengths and weaknesses, but this is really just a picture of the battlefield that you've painted.
There's not 1 type of Sorc that BE is useful to. You can have no light armor/no points in magicka and still bolt 4 times, more if you use a potion. This is on top of using the other movement enhancing abilities, so it's plenty to get you out of range of charges/pulls. And that's just the minimum--the more you can do it, the more obviously imbalanced it is.
You really don't have to explain this perfectly balanced symphony of checks and balances stuff to defend an ability. This MMO was not divinely created without flaw; things will change.
Something being unbalanced in 1v1 does not imply that it is balanced in group play.0 -
LatinLegacy✭✭The OP post is not as clear cut as it is being made out to be. As a NB, I can see that the suggestions do work, however, they will only work for the initial engagement. After that, the engagement will most likely end with the same results, you being dead. Smart DK vamp players will still kick your face in no matter what debuffs & negates you slap on them because guess what... they have a counter for it. I have used rapid maneuvers & I roll. I have also used NB skills such as cripple. I still get charged, I still get chained, then the standard drops & I'm shield bashed to death. The only way I am getting out of anything is if I roll out & stealth immediately before they can react & that barely works. On top of that, on all four campaigns that I play on, the emperor/empress is a DK vamp that has an entire team of other DK vamps playing with him or her. The suggestions are good but just delay what is going to be the same result.Edited by LatinLegacy on 26 April 2014 03:361
-
Mange✭✭You seem to have completely missed the Mist Form, which is superior to Bolt escape for escaping if you ask me. It's a good post for newbies but how you intend to spam knockdown a DK with crystal shards is beyond me. You're going to need a lot of well timed insta casts since the average DK will spam bash which means no normal casting for you.0
-
LadyChaos✭✭✭✭@LadyChaos
You really give yourself too much credit for your "twitchy" gameplay. You're not a surgical strike fighter, you're simply a glass cannon that has too much mobility due to a poorly balanced ability. I'm glad you feel like you're filling a role based on your perceived strengths and weaknesses, but this is really just a picture of the battlefield that you've painted.
There's not 1 type of Sorc that BE is useful to. You can have no light armor/no points in magicka and still bolt 4 times, more if you use a potion. This is on top of using the other movement enhancing abilities, so it's plenty to get you out of range of charges/pulls. And that's just the minimum--the more you can do it, the more obviously imbalanced it is.
You really don't have to explain this perfectly balanced symphony of checks and balances stuff to defend an ability. This MMO was not divinely created without flaw; things will change.- I do not claim there are no flaws, there are many. Making major class changes does not fix these flaws (unless we are talking bout bugs and classes missing flavor)
- People are not complaining about the 4x bolting sorcerer, it is the ones who can do it 8-10+ times that are getting attention.
- Yes I agree there are many other build types. Again it is not the heavy armor wearing ones people are complaining about being "OP".
- I'm painting a picture to show it is 2 sided, trades for high mobility, for those who think it is a win button.
Edited by LadyChaos on 26 April 2014 11:23VR2 Ataxia - [NA] Veteran Dominion Sorcerer [Auriel's Bow]
PvP, PvE, Crafting, and General Shenanigans Sorcery and Mayhem online since 1999
Current PvP Class/Supernatural Census0 -
HithlumSoul ShrivenYou can defend the skills all you want, but reality is: unless they balance it soon, PvP will be dead in 2-3 weeks, and you will be running around Cyrodiil with other like-minded sorc and DK vamps.1
-
Samadhi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭cjtignub17_ESO wrote: »...
7.) Vampire Ultimate
- The main thing with vampires to realize is that while they have a decent ultimate and they can cast it rather frequently they are also extremely extremely weak. They are in essance a glass cannon in the purest sense. It makes sense to me why this strategy is effective against a random noobie zerg but against any organized pvp group even 2-3 vamps spamming ultimate end up with a near instant death.
a.) A lot of the strategies used to defeat pulsar spam can be used here against vampires so read those above. They do get heals just like the pulsar spammers get. Again the MOST IMPORTANT THING IS TO KITE them. Abilities like Pulsar and Vampire Ultimate are the defense against melees. Without these abilities melees would run the show. Having abilities like this keeps a good balance between ranged and melee superiority.
b.) Silver Bolts is your friend. This is the secret to beating that vampire that runs into your group and drops his ultimate. Bolts will knock him down for 3 seconds and has a 5% chance to insta kill him
c.) Root / Stuns: theres hundreds pick ur favorite and hit him with it to keep them at bay.
d.) Negate Magic: Makes it impossible for them to cast ultimate
e.) Dark Talons: What do you know Dark Talons can root the enemy and does fire damage to them. Standard on top will cut their healing in half and nova will cut their damage
...
Does the Snipe morph Lethal Arrow that reduces the target's healing by 50% apply to the healing from bat swarm?
"If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
0 -
Semel✭✭Bolt escape + Dark conversion for forced mana.
what? ru really suggesting usng 4 secopnds channeling ability that root you in one place amidst pvp fight? really?
)
There is only one serious issue atm in Cyrodiil. Abusing ultimate cost unintended mechanic and spamming bat swarm for 4 -10 point cost.0 -
Baphomet✭✭✭✭✭
✭Purge, purge, purge. I'd like to emphasize this ability to everybody, and especially those who have never experienced a VR 10 vs. VR 10 environment but still fancy themselves experts on the game's balance.
Find yourself in the dreaded talon + standard combo, cast purge and you and your entire party will walk away nearly unscathed. This single ability negates both the talons and the standard, and all it takes is one guy in the party who has it slotted.- The Psijic Order
- TKO
- Dominant Dominion
- The Noore2 -
Lexander✭its funny how the topic suggests countering OP skills with OP skills
some great logic there sherlock0 -
Utherix✭✭✭The OP is actually completely false for reasons outlined by other posters.
Also how can you say Rally morph and Purge are good counters. You have to PvP for dozens of hours to unlock those! All the while getting ****ed by these abilities.Edited by Utherix on 27 April 2014 15:330 -
Ghenra✭✭✭Hahahahaahahahahahahahahaha!!!!
*** post for *** readers!!
All of this post is a lie, don't belive him, TESO is the most unbalanced game ever and it will be free to play in 3 months.0 -
Samadhi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭...
Also how can you say Rally morph and Purge are good counters. You have to PvP for dozens of hours to unlock those! All the while getting ****ed by these abilities.
Who ever would have thought that PvPing for a prolonged period would give a person more ideas, options and capability to fair better in PvP settings."If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." -- the 14th Dalai Lama
Wisdom is doing Now that which benefits you later.
1 -
Kypho✭✭✭✭All counters are known, but all what you telling, cost WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too much stamina or magica to get work. Fix is needed, eighter the cost or fix the broken overpowered abilities.0 -
Bloodvax✭✭✭I am willing to bet that 100% of the people complaining about imbalance are trying to pvp in PUG groups. Which lack any kind of real leadership or communication. That is the main reason that one VR10 is able to ulty into a grp and wipe them. I suggest trying to find a pvp guild with communication abilities. You'll find your PVP experience is much more enjoyable.ASYLUM-PVP
Bloodvax- Vet Templar underpowered crafter
Molly Mesita-OP NB
Lizerd Wizard-Lowbie PVP toon
AOC Big Deal Emperor of the Forum Trolls0
