SPIES BE BANNED - multi-faction account abuses abound

Aemesh23

I know, I know, this won't stop players who want to buy a second account.
Spying happens in mmo's. But why should players be allowed to make an alt, level to ten, then show up to a keep defense, pick up an elder scroll, and walk out of the keep and into the enemy team with it (which is in fact, their team).

I'm sure with a little creative thinking these f*wits will find a few other ways to abuse the system to get a giggle, at the expense of people who are actually interested in a fair-ish competition.

Perhaps the person who captured the scroll should be the only one allowed to move it after it's been placed. And for that matter, perhaps players who perform such feats of sheer d*ishness like the above-mentioned affront should have their accounts banned.

MysticAura

People who do this are pretty low, but at the same time..war isn't exactly polite and spies actually seem like they fit in that scenario. What they do need is an in game way of punishing them when caught. I mean, if they're getting caught they aren't very good at it to begin with.

kirnmalidus

I thought characters on one account can't be in the same PvP shard/instance?

Ker.Rakb16_ESO

kirnmalidus wrote: »

I thought characters on one account can't be in the same PvP shard/instance?

They can be.

Aemesh23

MysticAura, you are correct to a degree -but whereas IRL a traitor's death is usually the most gruesome one, what possible deterrent would suffice to stop this from becoming common practice? In-game, the ability to "flag a traitor" would probably be abused by anyone who's miffed by some other player, or worse, by a spy! It only takes 2 or 3 hours of game time to make a spy, but sometimes it takes a whole day's worth of fighting to get to the point that a scroll is captured. To have it snatched away in a moment is awful... but what's worse is that that same player can come back and do it again >.< There is nothing in place to prevent it in any way. I agree, war has always gone hand in hand with espionage, but then again, so has trenchfoot and other vile miseries... I'd prefer if reality only intrudes in ways that make the game more enjoyable, not less.

Darka

I was under the impression different factions locked out on the Campaigns under the same account
As for multi accounting, nothing you can do about people that way. It’s a *** move but worse things in war have happened
And if people can think of an easy way to do it then they will

Easiest way to lock it down would be to make Scrolls only able to be picked up by opposing faction first, IE the other side can only take it, you cant pick it up before they drop it sort of thing
It’s a pretty simple fix really
Wont stop spying, but will stop any scroll abuse

grabbintrionb14_ESO

Just recruit a spy of your own. You don't even need a character logged into the other faction to spy. Just find out the teamspeak server of whatever guild is running the biggest zerg. As they say in EVE , at least spies bring fights.

SirAndy

Or the dragon knights that chain pull enemy players over the alliance wall so they can grab a scroll without having to open the gate.

ZOS promised they would fix that, but as of now, that still works ...

aegis156

You cannot be surprised by this. It is an intended function of the guild structure. It was even brought up on one of the podcast type thingies they did during Beta.

Aemesh23

grabbintrionb14_ESO wrote: »

Just recruit a spy of your own. You don't even need a character logged into the other faction to spy. Just find out the teamspeak server of whatever guild is running the biggest zerg. As they say in EVE , at least spies bring fights.

lol. i even gave you an LOL. But its still bulls* you devil you. I don't know that spying can ever be banned, but since I can think of no punishment other than unreasonable ones involving a variety of sharp and/or blunt instruments, I'm at a loss as to what to do about their more damaging capabilities are....

yes, we could go into the other team's teamspeak, or make some alts of our own, but imagine this; 3 months go by, and instead of everyone fighting each other with armies, hordes of level 10 alts try to run from their own bases escorting their own team's elder scrolls into enemy territory! And the opposing team's spies rush out to stop them, or at least to rush out into enemy territory to snatch the scroll up if it should fall and return it to their... er. the enemy's... whatever, you see how ridiculous this is, i'm sure. Overstated, but not entirely unlikely, if you catch my drift.

driosketch

I don't think you can pick up a scroll your alliance already owns. Someone correct me if this has changed, but as of 1.0, if you tried to be a spy and walk a scroll out of a keep, you should get a message that "your alliance has already captured this scroll" when you try to pick it up.

Aemesh23

aegis156 wrote: »

You cannot be surprised by this. It is an intended function of the guild structure. It was even brought up on one of the podcast type thingies they did during Beta.

Well I'm not sure if the whole "spies SHOULD be allowed to steal elder scrolls" thing is going to play out however they intended it to.

And unfortunately, no I wasn't as surprised as I should've been :P

But let me paint you a scene, all you people who will inevitably comment that "spies happen" or "spies are a part of warfare."

The elder scroll lies on the pedestal guarded on all sides by grim-faced veterans of a long and bloody war. These blooded sentinels lie in wait for ANY who dare to invade the heart of the keep; many have been killed trying, except for BobcatBilly, who nobody really knows, and who has no rank, and who generally asks stupid questions, like "hey, any big attacks planned today?"
No, these silent guardians will allow BobcatBilly to walk up and take the scroll, then to leap onto the enemy's blades the moment after he's got it firmly in hand.
Why him? because, hey, he's an elf, and these sentinels are also elves. That's all that's needed to be a spy right? (I wonder, if IRL, someone could infiltrate <insert military regime> headquarters not because of their level of resourcefulness, or languages spoken, or ability to hit a target with a bullet, but because hey! they're a white dude. Eh, probably not.)

Sentinel 1 to Sentinel 2 : "Hey, you see that guy? What was he thinking?"
Sentinel 2: "Yeah, what a dumb@ss, hah! Say, you got plans for lateRK!!" (at this point the conversation ends, as one of the players executes the guard for dereliction of duty.

My point is, no, I am less and less surprised by what some people consider "realistic and fair" gameplay. I've already considered a number of other possible exploitations, and I don't want to get into them because I just *know* they will become commonplace in a hot second. Much as people may want this "other" dimension of competition, I think in the end it'll do more harm than good. We're talking about a community of people who will find ways to exploit a game. Realistic or not - and in this case, not - there has to be limits to some things and this is one of them.

aegis156

This is why I dislike the 5 guilds and cross faction guild system. Like everything else about ESO someone thought an idea would be cool then realized the consequences after it was implemented. ZoS really needs an "Oh ***" Button, or at least to think things through completely

nicholaspingasb16_ESO

Ker.Rakb16_ESO wrote: »

kirnmalidus wrote: »

I thought characters on one account can't be in the same PvP shard/instance?

They can be.

Terrible idea. ZENIMAX!

Cydone

driosketch wrote: »

I don't think you can pick up a scroll your alliance already owns. Someone correct me if this has changed, but as of 1.0, if you tried to be a spy and walk a scroll out of a keep, you should get a message that "your alliance has already captured this scroll" when you try to pick it up.

This. The OP doesn't know what he/she is talking about. This was a problem in the beta and someone made a video about it. Like a week later ZOS made it so allied players cannot pick up an Elder Scroll once it's been placed in an allied Keep/Outpost.

LadyChaos

Cydone wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

I don't think you can pick up a scroll your alliance already owns. Someone correct me if this has changed, but as of 1.0, if you tried to be a spy and walk a scroll out of a keep, you should get a message that "your alliance has already captured this scroll" when you try to pick it up.

This. The OP doesn't know what he/she is talking about. This was a problem in the beta and someone made a video about it. Like a week later ZOS made it so allied players cannot pick up an Elder Scroll once it's been placed in an allied Keep/Outpost.

re-read ... you cannot pick up ally scroll.. we agree.. apologies

Aemesh23

Hold up, then how did it happen yesterday? The scroll was being held in fort ash, by dominion, in the inner keep. The reds were in the outer keep, shooting at the door. Everybody sees a huuuge message "Flebleh (?)" has picked up the elder scroll of mnem. I turn and watch the dips* (on our team) run over from the pedestal he got it from - and where I *saw* it not ten seconds before - to the side door, and out into the enemy team.
Enemy team killed him, and left with the scroll. Very clear situation, and if what you say is true, then there must obviously be limits to whatever changes Zenimax has made. Perhaps if the scroll belongs somewhere else (mnem?) then it is in fact still portable? This doesn't change the fact that spies are poo.

Perhaps I don't know what Im talking about. Perhaps I DO know what I saw. So explain to me within these parameters what happened? And if you say mass hallucination, I will stick my thumbs in my ears, or your eyes. Wait a second, are you a spy? That post was disinformation, wasn't it... *hand goes to weapon*

Cydone

They were supposed to have patched the ability for allied players to pick up a scroll that was placed in an allied keep/outpost. Even tried to pick one up that DFC had in one of our keeps to see what would happen. Didn't let me take it. Forget the exact message it gave, but it prevented me from taking it. Don't know what you saw, so idk lol.

beravinprb19_ESO

MysticAura wrote: »

People who do this are pretty low, but at the same time..war isn't exactly polite and spies actually seem like they fit in that scenario. What they do need is an in game way of punishing them when caught. I mean, if they're getting caught they aren't very good at it to begin with.

In war, you can imprison or execute a former ally turned spy. You can also confiscate their documents and weapons. In this game, you can not attack or otherwise steal from an ally. They can feed your scroll to an enemy and there is nothing you can do about it.

Aemesh23

oookay, so this might be a very specific situation; Here's what i gather happened.

Apparently, red had captured fort ash while my guild was sleeping. Yellow took it back right before we got back on. The scroll of mnem was at ash this whole time; nobody had touched it since the keep cap, but since AD hadn't moved it yet, AND it was AD's scroll (this allows anyone in your alliance to pick it up, to return it to its proper place / or turn it over to the enemy in this case) at this moment, I came online with some friends, which was the point at which we're hearing msgs that "red is attacking".

So then everything else happens as I describe; red busts down the outer wall, defenders retreat to the inner keep, traitor picks up the scroll and runs it out to the enemy.

That said, it's a very specific scenario that allows for a "spy" to f* off with your team's scroll. If it had been blue's scroll, nobody could've touched it. Having our own scroll way out at ash, having a spy there at the scene as we recap the keep and defending it against a ready-to go army, and nobody knowing exactly what the hell's happening --the whole scenario is a once in a blue moon sort of thing, but there you go. Imagine the horror, not knowing this, and seeing the supposedly impossible occur.

I still bear some reservations about players and guilds being multi-faction capable, but there's a bit of relief in knowing that it's not Zenimax's oversight as much as it was the defenders who didn't think to re-cap the scroll (or just didn't realize that the scroll wasn't safe and sound in the keep). At least that situation has a measure of control. So my apologies if this whole silly thread has caused any undue confusion or consternation. My bad

Commonpain

o.O just thought of another scenario for spies...

afaik you can only have 20 Siege weapons per Keep. Now imagine theres a large group of good players trying to capture a keep.

Imagine each one of them to have two accounts. One they actually play on and one where they only have a lv. 10 toon for the opposing faction with only enough gold/AP to buy one siege weapon.

The large group's actual characters will sneak to the keep desired to capture.

Then they place the toons at that keep (preferrably a keep at a scroll gate?) and build up their siege weapons. Siege limit for that fort will be reached in a matter of seconds and the keep would be defenseless. The three remaining toons could spy the environment while one could also just get the scroll out and give it to a nice VR10 mage who bolt-retreats it to their keep xD

This way you could theoretically easily capture any keep you want and get scrolls without much effort even on a completely full server.

SwampRaider

I AM A SPY...sometimes. It's easy. Find out a name of someone on the other faction. Do /tell Character name, and BAM INSTANT COORDINATION.

I do this a lot when i guest into campaigns, especially when my faction owns most of the map. I just whisper an opposing factions player and tell them what to do.

is it cheap? NO. helping a weak enemy actually do crap and help them become a challenge is a good thing.

Eisenhovver

I agree that spies are a common aspect to war, however as previously mentioned spies are punished if caught. Sure spies can provide information to the enemy in war but to steal a valuable resource that nobody can stop them from stealing. I do think that there should be restrictions on who can perform certain actions (such as taking a scroll). Popup a vote: Ebonheart Pact player 'ImASpy' is trying to take the XX Scroll from XX keep. and give the other players on the team a 'Allow' or 'Deny' option. If so many allows are given, the player can get it.
Or maybe even more restrictive, I think someone mentioned only the original captor can move it or maybe the keep's owner guild. Idk but I agree that this is too easy to do and is unreasonable.

SwampRaider

Eisenhovver wrote: »

I agree that spies are a common aspect to war, however as previously mentioned spies are punished if caught. Sure spies can provide information to the enemy in war but to steal a valuable resource that nobody can stop them from stealing. I do think that there should be restrictions on who can perform certain actions (such as taking a scroll). Popup a vote: Ebonheart Pact player 'ImASpy' is trying to take the XX Scroll from XX keep. and give the other players on the team a 'Allow' or 'Deny' option. If so many allows are given, the player can get it.
Or maybe even more restrictive, I think someone mentioned only the original captor can move it or maybe the keep's owner guild. Idk but I agree that this is too easy to do and is unreasonable.

you cant move a scroll out of a keep once its placed. UNLESS you are on the opposing faction

Aemesh23

SwampRaider wrote: »

You cant move a scroll out of a keep once its placed. UNLESS you are on the opposing faction

^ It's true. The only time you can "steal" a scroll is very very specific; First of all, if your faction already owns both of your own scrolls, you can move another scroll that you already own. Normally, you can only take a scroll from an enemy's keep, whether before or after you capture it.

If, lets say you're AD, and you don't own the scroll of mnem (red has it). Your team rolls into fort drakelowe, where Red is holding the scroll of Ghartok. You may take the keep. You may slaughter every red player. But you may not move the scroll of ghartok until your team owns the scroll of Mnem again. You also may not move your own teams scrolls, once they've been placed at a keep.

In the case I described in my last post, the scroll of mnem WAS the scroll at fort ashe, and it was the second scroll (the others was our own scroll, still at home in its temple) our team had taken control of; But EP were the ones we took fort ash from, and when we took the keep, our players apparently didnt realize that "now is the opportunity" for them to move the scroll back to our own side of the map.

But the spy did. And he ran it into the EPs who came to retake the keep.

In another scenario, lets say your AD team takes drakelowe, where the scroll of ghartok is. Later, you manage to steal the scroll of Mnem back from the EP. The moment you manage to get it back to the temple of mnem, and place it on the pedestal, one of your teammates - or a spy - could then move the scroll of ghartok.

(in theory. I believe this is correct, but its been a while since I've done this, though anyone else is welcome to clarify if Ive missed a shot.)

SwampRaider

Aemesh23 wrote: »

SwampRaider wrote: »

You cant move a scroll out of a keep once its placed. UNLESS you are on the opposing faction

^ It's true. The only time you can "steal" a scroll is very very specific; First of all, if your faction already owns both of your own scrolls, you can move another scroll that you already own. Normally, you can only take a scroll from an enemy's keep, whether before or after you capture it.

If, lets say you're AD, and you don't own the scroll of mnem (red has it). Your team rolls into fort drakelowe, where Red is holding the scroll of Ghartok. You may take the keep. You may slaughter every red player. But you may not move the scroll of ghartok until your team owns the scroll of Mnem again. You also may not move your own teams scrolls, once they've been placed at a keep.

In the case I described in my last post, the scroll of mnem WAS the scroll at fort ashe, and it was the second scroll (the others was our own scroll, still at home in its temple) our team had taken control of; But EP were the ones we took fort ash from, and when we took the keep, our players apparently didnt realize that "now is the opportunity" for them to move the scroll back to our own side of the map.

But the spy did. And he ran it into the EPs who came to retake the keep.

In another scenario, lets say your AD team takes drakelowe, where the scroll of ghartok is. Later, you manage to steal the scroll of Mnem back from the EP. The moment you manage to get it back to the temple of mnem, and place it on the pedestal, one of your teammates - or a spy - could then move the scroll of ghartok.

(in theory. I believe this is correct, but its been a while since I've done this, though anyone else is welcome to clarify if Ive missed a shot.)

how is it a second account? The spy could jsut be using /tell to an enemy player

Aemesh23

read the above threads, situation clarified. The "second account reference" however, has nothing to do with with "spying" but other acts of sabotage; Hypothetically speaking, IF Zenimax made it impossible to have multiple characters of the same account in different factions, a player could just get a second account with which to do their dirty work - espionage etc. All the sabotage stuff mentioned earlier in the post can currently be accomplished with a single account as things stand.