Summons should stay up with weaponswitch.

Crescent

It's not just the sorcerer pets.

I'm talking about things like Bound Armor and Magelight.

If I cast surge on myself, or momentum, I can switch weapons and keep the benefit. Same for storm form.

Instead, nobody wants to use skills like Bound Armor, because it requires 2 slot skills instead of one to even function, because if you have to waste a global cooldown to just keep recasting the skill, on top of the steep mana cost to resummon it every time you swap weapons.

With magelight as a battle mage, who has to worry about it on top of surge, momentum, and stormform, it really eats up the slots and mana bar having to constantly resummon after every weaponswap.

kreekitb16_ESO

So you want Buffs without a Duration to stay up all the time?

like a passive Skill? ... Change some of the other Skills then too pls!

Or if they get changed to stay up with weapon swap, then give them a Duration. Having to re-cast your Armor Buff every 10s is way better than perma-ON, right?

As i said, Change some other Skills then too please... like Perma-On Spiked Armor, Always have DMG Buff from Flawless Dawnbreaker and so on...

Nehemia

You do realize then everyone would just slot as many toggleable buffs to their 2nd hotbar as possible? This would break sorcerers even more.

Solomon_Cato

Don't forget that sorcs also have access to a third bar via overload...... Could you imagine the insanity?

Aimeryan

There are not that many toggles that would allow you to ignore a bar.

The only argument for toggles requiring a slot on both bars at the moment is because the bar switching is unresponsive and frustrating; people like to share misery - so if they must deal with it then toggle users have to as well. As I said, there are not that many toggles to allow you to ignore a bar anyway, but I guess you could argue that toggle users may swap less often (and thus, be frustrated less).

The real solution is to solve the bar swap unresponsiveness. Then, no one would care about this and toggles could take up one slot again (yes, they did previously before moaning occurred).

DankShank

How come when I are to switch to bow 1h1s skills no work?
Please fix k thx.

Verzwei

You mean we have to make careful choices about which abilities we invest in and put on our action bars? I'M OUT!

avannax

Or, you know, you just have the summon/toggle on both bars, and it doesn't get recast when you switch because the skill is still available and active.

This is what I do with Bound Armor, and it works fine. I even put it on my Overload bar so that I'm never not wearing it when I cast (until I accidentally try to spam my 4 and hit my 5 instead. -___-.)

Sleepydan

avannax wrote: »

Or, you know, you just have the summon/toggle on both bars, and it doesn't get recast when you switch because the skill is still available and active.

This is what I do with Bound Armor, and it works fine. I even put it on my Overload bar so that I'm never not wearing it when I cast (until I accidentally try to spam my 4 and hit my 5 instead. -___-.)

Word

Crescent

Verzwei wrote: »

You mean we have to make careful choices about which abilities we invest in and put on our action bars? I'M OUT!

The point is that summon skills cost effectively 2 slots over non-summon skills.

Having a summon on just one bar doesn't mean the skill is free. A person using a full bar for toggles is still short of a full bar of otherwise active abilities.

The opportunity cost is still there.

steinernein

Summons, when on both bars, don't require recasting or time loss in between weapon switching. The cost, in other words, is fair. Most other abilities require you to recast and switch at some point which means a loss at least one GDC.

Crescent

steinernein wrote: »

Summons, when on both bars, don't require recasting or time loss in between weapon switching. The cost, in other words, is fair. Most other abilities require you to recast and switch at some point which means a loss at least one GDC.

God you are as dense as they come. YOU WILL BE SWITCHING WEAPONS REGARDLESS.

WHY WOULD YOU HAVE TWO WEAPONS AND NOT CONSTANTLY SWITCH.

PEOPLE DONT WANT TO HAVE SUMMONS SO THEY CAN JUST SIT ON ONE WEAPON BAR.

steinernein

Crescent wrote: »

God you are as dense as they come. YOU WILL BE SWITCHING WEAPONS REGARDLESS.

WHY WOULD YOU HAVE TWO WEAPONS AND NOT CONSTANTLY SWITCH.

PEOPLE DONT WANT TO HAVE SUMMONS SO THEY CAN JUST SIT ON ONE WEAPON BAR.

You didn't read my argument; having toggles on the both bars prevents a DPS/utility loss which no other ability offers. In order to maintain DPS you need to spend GDC recasting it. Essentially, the DPS is free because it no longer consumes time when you weapon switch and that is probably the primary reasoning in keeping it a requirement to have all your bars slotted out with summons.

Your primary example with momentum and surge are not applicable to summons because they consume resource/time (both in casting or recasting then weapon swapping) where as a summon consumes bars and max magicka and one GDC for swapping a weapon. It's a fair exchange in principle though the implementation (e.g. pet scaling) may need work.

Reading comprehension is pretty hard, eh? Oh yeah, I use two different weapons while maintaining three different toggles (imp, magelight, twilight).

Crescent

steinernein wrote: »

Crescent wrote: »

God you are as dense as they come. YOU WILL BE SWITCHING WEAPONS REGARDLESS.

WHY WOULD YOU HAVE TWO WEAPONS AND NOT CONSTANTLY SWITCH.

PEOPLE DONT WANT TO HAVE SUMMONS SO THEY CAN JUST SIT ON ONE WEAPON BAR.

You didn't read my argument; having toggles on the both bars prevents a DPS/utility loss which no other ability offers. In order to maintain DPS you need to spend GDC recasting it. Essentially, the DPS is free because it no longer consumes time when you weapon switch and that is probably the primary reasoning in keeping it a requirement to have all your bars slotted out with summons.

Your primary example with momentum and surge are not applicable to summons because they consume resource/time (both in casting or recasting then weapon swapping) where as a summon consumes bars and max magicka and one GDC for swapping a weapon. It's a fair exchange in principle though the implementation (e.g. pet scaling) may need work.

Reading comprehension is pretty hard, eh? Oh yeah, I use two different weapons while maintaining three different toggles (imp, magelight, twilight).

Prevents DPS/UTILITY loss? You're losing the ability to slot one skill that would have been additional utility or damaging flexibility.

There is no free DPS to bound armor. That magelight you need to keep on both bars now prevents you from having used another skill.

When I use a 2h+staff combo I'm actively switching to dump my magicka bar and stamina bar constantly, so essentially switching around for surge since it is on the staff bar costs me nothing besides the GCD of casting it, and keeping my magicka from capping.

The weaponswap is not out of necessity; it's part of keeping a rotation going.

Though I'm not gonna bother arguing with someone who even runs imp or any pet for that matter. Clearly efficiency doesn't matter much to someone who would waste their slots and skill points on utterly useless skills.

steinernein

Crescent wrote: »

Prevents DPS/UTILITY loss? You're losing the ability to slot one skill that would have been additional utility or damaging flexibility.

There is no free DPS to bound armor. That magelight you need to keep on both bars now prevents you from having used another skill.

When I use a 2h+staff combo I'm actively switching to dump my magicka bar and stamina bar constantly, so essentially switching around for surge since it is on the staff bar costs me nothing besides the GCD of casting it, and keeping my magicka from capping.

The weaponswap is not out of necessity; it's part of keeping a rotation going.

Though I'm not gonna bother arguing with someone who even runs imp or any pet for that matter. Clearly efficiency doesn't matter much to someone who would waste their slots and skill points on utterly useless skills.

You don't understand basic game mechanics do you? While you have your pet out, if you're doing a pet oriented build, you're at least getting 300+ DPS at v2. By switching those out in favor of 'other utility/damaging spells' you're losing that in the transition and then losing more as you have to burn another GCD to cast new spells or refresh spells. What part of this do you not understand?

You also talk about additional utility and flexibility. I have, in my build, two free slots and any pick I make would fill cover the gap. I can off-tank, AoE, heal, DPS , and sustain with that current set up. What am I missing?

Like I said, you really don't understand this game at all when you think one of the hardest hitting AoEs that brings good utility (albeit it has one major drawback which is it only has 5m ... which is good enough for most encounters since it's almost free) and has the ability to off-tank is 'trash'. And while you may have legitimate beef with the Twilight variants it is still providing an aura while giving you a modest DPS boost (and you can spec it to heal to offload some burden from the healer).

The only reason I run this build is because it is very efficient, I probably out damage and out sustain your build by a decent chunk as well as having more utility ironically.

It's rather cute that you think you're being efficient. If you want to find out, go pull up a few screen shots with recount and compare your DPS to mine at V2 in both AoE and single target situations. You will be behind.

Aimeryan

Other skills do not have a reservation cost. Also, the only toggles that I can think of that increase dps are the pets, which aren't really toggles. Besides, they can be killed.

If the counter is not strong enough then it can be increased. Effectively taking up two skills slots is too strong a loss and is why no one is using the pets at end game, besides them dying all the time (and therefore, having to be recast).

Stautmeister

If your toggled abilities would work through bars and not dissapear you would be able to effectively have 11 skills indefinatly without switching weapons.
This would give sorcs a rediculous advantage over everyone else. Since you (without spending recourses) would always have 2 pets, improved armor and a dmg buff.
Not having to switch weapons to obtain this is a major benefit.
As stated What if dks can keep razor armor and infernoweapons on a toggle without switching weapons. That would be pretty ffing op.

Aimeryan

kstauthamerb16_ESO wrote: »

If your toggled abilities would work through bars and not dissapear you would be able to effectively have 11 skills

Explain.

Stautmeister

Aimeryan wrote: »

kstauthamerb16_ESO wrote: »

If your toggled abilities would work through bars and not dissapear you would be able to effectively have 11 skills

Explain.

Lets take the sorcerer.
Toggle abilities are Double summons, magelight and Bound armor? I believe

If you where able to activate these toggles. Switch weapons, still have them active you would than have acces to these 4 now "passive abilities" because they are always active.

because of this you are able to fully benefit from these 4 skills while also having 5 other skillslots open to use At the same time.
Giving you a range of 10 abilities (not 11 my bad) you are actively using.

Other people have to weapon swap, dealing with both 2 sets of weapons needed, and only being able to use 6 skills at the same time. (possibly more but those are temporary buffs requiring you to keep switching)

Aimeryan

Some of the skills last quite a while; surge, etc.

The weapon swap is very quick - try it out. It is something like 0.25 seconds. What makes weapon swapping and using the abilities on the other bar slow is the weapon swap not occurring until after the current action has completed and not being able to see the other skill bar until the weapon swap has completed. This means you can not que abilities on the other bar, which makes it feel slow and unresponsive.

Basically, if they fixed the UI responsiveness with abilities on the other bar you wouldn't talk like as if there was only 5 abilities - everyone would be talking about 10. If you train yourself to the clunky UI you can actually swap between the bars quite effectively and use 10, but it does require a lot of getting used to. Still clunky, even then. Regardless, toggles give no advantage once you start using both bars effectively - they definitely should not require two skill slots to be effective.

Stautmeister

Aimeryan wrote: »

Some of the skills last quite a while; surge, etc.
Regardless, toggles give no advantage once you start using both bars effectively - they definitely should not require two skill slots to be effective.

Besides only needing 1 top level weapon and not actually having to swap?
I feel like those are pretty large advantages

Aimeryan

As I say, the swap is largely unimportant in terms of advantage; it is more a quality of life issue. I strongly support the need for it to be improved in terms of quality of life.

Only requiring one top level weapon; even 4 toggles still mean you have to swap now and again to get the most out of your ability slots. Still, I get your point here, but each toggle taking up two slots is not the answer. There is a reservation cost in place to make multiple toggles prohibitive - if that needs increasing to effectively do this then that it what should be done.

Zeratar

In the case of Zeni changing this to toggles only need one bar=persist all the time:

Sure having two summons, a bound armor, and a magelight takes up 4 skills on one bar, but in the case of these skills persisting on weapon swap, if the person is using all four skills, they are still facing a...what, 35% hit to max magicka until those skills get turned off (whether by will or by pet death)? That's still a fair trade imho. Also you would still need to swap back to that bar if you wished to resummon anything, or have access to that one skill slot and ultimate slot that are left over on that bar.

I do not believe such a thing would be broken as the penalties for maintaining all those summons would still be in place. I'm lv39 as of speaking with 14 points in magicka, and with all 3 daedric summoning skills up, facing a 30% hit to max magicka, I need to be VERY careful on my magicka use because firing off a couple spells drains it very quickly.

NordJitsu

This is originally how summons worked and it was perfect.

It absolutely is not the case that building "buff bars" was the go to strategy back then. Like Nick Konkle explained when he talked about this, buff bars really weren't even a good strategy.

The problem with buff bars is you lose out on the flexibility in combat that weapon swap gives to you.

Even if summons (or all toggles) persisted through weapon swap we wouldn't see people putting all their toggles on one bar. And the people who did do that would be bad players.

I've been arguing for this "change" (really going back to how things were designed) since very very early in the Beta. I made countless threads and /feedbacks about it throughout my time in the Psijic Order. But ZOS doesn't seem to care.

They broke summoning with the change. The damage, health, and usefulness of pets was all balanced around them costing ONE skill slot. When they made them cost two skill slots, they did not double their power or usefulness.

They are now twice as expensive and half as effective as every other skill. At this point, if you're using pets in a raid I'm running, you'll be kindly shown the door.

AngersRevenge

20% crit chance from inner light (mage light) is worth 2 slots IMO. Very much so.

Zeratar

I completely agree with NordJitsu, this needs to be changed, I'm really not enjoying having 6/10 skills to do three things....its to the point where I'm not really using them because its not worth it.

steinernein

NordJitsu wrote: »

They are now twice as expensive and half as effective as every other skill. At this point, if you're using pets in a raid I'm running, you'll be kindly shown the door.

The only reason you wouldn't want to run specific pets is due to how they soak up heals, the rest is just dogma and even when the numbers support having a pet out you'll still say no based on principle not on actual fact.

Crescent

Yeah, I'm sure that AI works perfectly in any encounter with actual mechanics and constant movement.

Good luck getting any use out of that pet when you can't just detonate it for AoE.

And good job glossing over the post that actually mentioned summons including those I use, which are magelight and bound armor.

We'll see how many pet builds make it to scoreboards for speed runs or in PvP.

LadyChaos

Crescent wrote: »

It's not just the sorcerer pets.

I'm talking about things like Bound Armor and Magelight.

If I cast surge on myself, or momentum, I can switch weapons and keep the benefit. Same for storm form.

Instead, nobody wants to use skills like Bound Armor, because it requires 2 slot skills instead of one to even function, because if you have to waste a global cooldown to just keep recasting the skill, on top of the steep mana cost to resummon it every time you swap weapons.

With magelight as a battle mage, who has to worry about it on top of surge, momentum, and stormform, it really eats up the slots and mana bar having to constantly resummon after every weaponswap.

no, I'm sorry. I'm sorcerer myself... you have to pick 2 roles. If you want them to be the same but slight differences fine, but role 1 and role 2 should not carry over.

This would make pets/toggle buff players OP over the players who don't chose those options as their main for starters... you have to think of it as 2 roles, not 2 hot-bars. best wishes sincerely.

steinernein

Crescent wrote: »

Yeah, I'm sure that AI works perfectly in any encounter with actual mechanics and constant movement.

Good luck getting any use out of that pet when you can't just detonate it for AoE.

And good job glossing over the post that actually mentioned summons including those I use, which are magelight and bound armor.

We'll see how many pet builds make it to scoreboards for speed runs or in PvP.

I only summon the pet when I am in position to detonate it which is any time I could normally cast impulse. Or, you know, let the imp wander towards the target while I get to safety to AE. Way to over complicate the process, must be hard to play this game right?

I don't gloss over posts as you're the one who lacks reading comprehension; Magelight and Bound Armor fall under the same principle which you maintain coverage without needing to recast meaning you can stay on a single bar or swap to a second one without needing to rebuff it every 8-20 seconds which is a DPS/survivability loss. Such a very hard concept for you to understand, eh?

The mechanic is sound but the implementation of the individual skills may need an update in balance and that's where your criticisms should be focused.

As for PvP I wouldn't bother using pets, but I am sure someone could find a competitive build that used pets to supplement their ability on the field. Probably not you though since you have no interest in fact finding or being correct. Good luck to you and your subpar DPS!

Imryll

I remember being pretty surprised early last fall that I could have both a clannfear and a winged twilight summoned and not lose either switching bars. Maybe that was where the line should have been drawn? Only allowing one regular summons at a time but letting them persist? Either that or buff them to the point you'd be glad to give them two slots. It was fun though gallivanting cross country with my little daedric team. Then they nerfed summons and moved bolt escape up the tree, leaving baby sorcerers pretty vulnerable.