[Suggestion] Bolt Escape For Everyone!!!

ThatHappyCat

Okay, not really.

What if gap closing skills: namely Focused Charge, Teleport Strike, Critical Charge and Shield Charge: could be used without a target?

The Sorcerer's Bolt Escape has caused a bit of a controversy with some claiming it makes Sorcerers too forgiving to play, while others claiming it is fine as it is. My personal opinion is it allows Sorcerers to overextend without too much consequence, but the only reason that's the case is because no other class has access to ground-covering skills.

Now, I'm aware that this would be a big change and would require lots of adjustments and rebalancing across the board, but: what if the four gap closer skills work like Bolt Escape does when there's no valid target? Like I said it wouldn't just be this one change, it would obviously require balancing of numbers and costs and possibly something to make Bolt Escape, being a tier 5 skill, more unique (for example, it could teleport you backwards instead; allowing you hurl spells/shoot arrows at enemies while moving out of range).

Thoughts?

Saet

I like it! I was wondering why others couldnt use their warp to abilities in similar fashion.

Sleepydan

These are my fears.

Homogenization.
Skill jealousy.

I don't want every class to be the same. Their differences is a strength, and having all the other mobility skills function similarly is kind of a bummer as is. I get it though. Cosmetically they're different, but instantly be next to your target and do some damage is pretty much you want out of a mobility ability.

The sorcs is different. Yay. It can do something a little better than the others, in that it can go anywhere. It also has a degen effect tied in, to compensate.

I feel the cost is worth the payout, and the skill is fine as it is. A sweet spot.

What I'm not sure of, is if having the ONLY mobility skill that doesn't require a target be a class ability. A part of me thinks that it's ok for a class to have nice things.

Only a dk can get-over-here.
Only a nb can chain invis.

I am aware that "skill jealousy" is a thing though, and if any mobility is truly that much better than only targeted mobility, and it makes sorcerer the de facto best class, Then bolt escape should become a mage guild ability, and sorc should get something else cool that only they can do as their storm call final skill.

Morphed lightning form might need to have the speed be baseline if that is now their only movement boost, and different morphs created. I'm not sure how class mobility is valued. It might be fine as is.


For the record, I am perfectly happy with the status quo at large. I feel like it's too soon for there to be a pattern of abuse, and for all the powerful potentials elsewhere to be realized.

ThatHappyCat

I am aware of the problems of homogenisation, hence why I suggested that Bolt Escape be spiced up a bit and, in a way, made better for combat. However, I think a ground-covering skill is too "fundamental" a utility to be restricted to a single class.

Allowing gap closers to work as ground-covering skills is logical and blends in well to their existing roles. I mean think about it: if you have the ability to charge forwards at breakneck speed, why would you only be able to do so if in near future you smash something?

Sleepydan

I think you have a point in regards to being able to charge at nothing vs something from a logical standpoint. I'm not sure it makes sense from a time or manpower perspective to change all those abilities numbers and animations. Shifting it to mage guild would be quick and easy. But then homogenization

Just thinking out loud for this next bit. I can't stop imagining a semi large group of people all on some VoIP system together, skipping along with their "Bolt escapes" of the physical or magical variety together, running into the enemy and everybody leapfrogging over each other forever. Lol.

I also can already hear the moans of people "missing" with their charge ability because it will no longer be targeted. That will suck

ThatHappyCat

Well, with soft targeting if there's an enemy in front of you and is in range you're going to charge right at them, so the "Bolt Escape" aspect only kicks in if there's no valid target, i.e. situations when gap-closers simply couldn't be used as they are now. In a massed battle with players all around you the "Bolt Escape" aspect would almost never come into play because no matter where you face there's going to be a valid target.

EDIT: Ah, I see. I'm not asking for gap closers to lose their targeting component, they should retain that. It's only when the ability cannot be used, i.e. no target, does it "become" a no-target rush.

My concerns with Bolt Escape is mostly to do with ganking. I've noticed that in a ganking group, if things go wrong (i.e. we bite off more than we could chew) the Sorcerers are generally more likely to get out of it intact, while the rest of us respawn at the nearest keep.

Also, when ambushing enemy supply lines, the Sorcerers can use Bolt Escape to quickly close in on far-off enemies that other classes couldn't reach and kill them before the rest of us get there.

Sleepydan

Ok. Let's flesh out your concept more. Talk me into it.

You suggest bolt escape should move you backward. I really don't like that idea. As it stands I find it blasphemous but sometimes necessary for third person combat, and your suggestion would be neigh unusable in first person mode. Or maybe I'm bad or don't give myself enough credit, but the reduced combat awareness is already a problematic impediment.

It also still gives away the sorcerers cool thing, and leaves them with roughly the same thing as everyone else. Do you have anything else non damage increasing, or sustain promoting way to make them a unique slow flake?

I say non damage increasing because then it just changes their alleged perfection from mobility to damage, and sustain in heals is already claimed.

LadyChaos

Sorcerers don't have an external heal, or a life tap, or a taunt, or in combat stealth... why not make all classes exactly the same. I think that would be swell.

ThatHappyCat

Sleepydan wrote: »

Ok. Let's flesh out your concept more. Talk me into it.

You suggest bolt escape should move you backward. I really don't like that idea. As it stands I find it blasphemous but sometimes necessary for third person combat, and your suggestion would be neigh unusable in first person mode. Or maybe I'm bad or don't give myself enough credit, but the reduced combat awareness is already a problematic impediment.

It also still gives away the sorcerers cool thing, and leaves them with roughly the same thing as everyone else. Do you have anything else non damage increasing, or sustain promoting way to make them a unique slow flake?

I say non damage increasing because then it just changes their alleged perfection from mobility to damage, and sustain in heals is already claimed.

I'm unsure what you're against here. Making Bolt Escape a backwards teleport does make it poorer in terms of travel, but I should think it would greatly improve its utility within combat; as you can teleport away from the enemy while maintaining facing; i.e. you can attack without having to turn back and slow down. A few other games have skills like this (e.g. Mesmer's Phase Retreat in GW2) and they're really, really useful for escaping and maintaining combat pressure at the same time.

In a way it improves combat awareness. If you're using Bolt Escape to run away (its most common use), currently doing so means you can't see whatever your pursuers are doing. If it teleports you backwards, you can teleport away while maintaining awareness of the enemy, and wouldn't be caught in simple traps like a NB stealthing while your back is turned and making you think you're safe.

And yeah, Bolt Escape is a cool thing. If only Templars can self-heal that would be a cool thing too, but would obviously make Templars inordinately powerful in non-group situations. Not saying a ground-covering skill is at the same magnitude as a heal, but you know what I'm getting at.

LadyChaos wrote: »

Sorcerers don't have an external heal, or a life tap, or a taunt, or in combat stealth... why not make all classes exactly the same. I think that would be swell.

Because none of those are essential functions in themselves except for the self-heal, and Sorcerers do in fact have multiple sources of healing (Dark Exchange, Blood Magic, Critical Surge).

A ground-covering ability is fundamental enough that only one class having it gives them a strong advantage in that area over classes that do not, namely it is very difficult for a player without a similar skill (unless they have an ungodly amount of speed buff, which I don't think is practically possible) to catch or run away from a player with it.

I've run with quite a few Sorcerer gankers, and this is indeed my experience. They can easily chase down enemies far away from where we're camped out, and if we overextend they're usually the ones that are prowling around waiting for the anti-gankers to disperse so they can come back and res us (or wait for us to run back).

Sleepydan

I don't think your respecting the leveling, questing, dungeon crawling person in this world. can you see yourself bolt escaping around the tunnels of a twisted dank cave, backwards, in first person? I can't see myself doing that. I'll get caught on an incline, forget about a rock or sharper turn than I anticipated.

I aware of other games having a similar skill. The one that came to my mind was disengage, from the world of Warcraft hunter.

I'm also frankly not sold its fundamentally necessary. As it stands I don't think, and this is an assumption, that any melees would put the current bolt escape on their bars over their current gap closers, assuming they could. Remember you only get 5 abilities, why would you choose an ability that can land you not close enough to, or too far from your enemy when you can choose one that always gets you where you are at your strongest, in melee? Especially when it also does much better damage when it hits. And non melees? Ranged characters having escape kite tastic run away skills doesn't seem wrong, it seems right to me.

Also, and this surprised me... You mentioned nb invis as a "simple trap" that catches current bolt escapers off guard, which I could only read as semantics for counter play. If there is counter play, then I definitely can't see a problem.


I guess this is a way to phrase one of my problems with this suggested change. I don't think, (think, I suppose it's possible that it's the best thing ever) that a pvp game where everybody has a spamable movement ability has as much depth as it could.

This change would put the "niche" ability bolt escape in the same category of balance as cc break, combat role, and interrupt. Literally everyone would have a different cosmetic of the same thing. Except the poor sorcerers, who have to do the same thing as everyone else only backwards.


Can anybody else weigh in? Am I smoking crack?

ThatHappyCat

Sleepydan wrote: »

I don't think your respecting the leveling, questing, dungeon crawling person in this world. can you see yourself bolt escaping around the tunnels of a twisted dank cave, backwards, in first person? I can't see myself doing that. I'll get caught on an incline, forget about a rock or sharper turn than I anticipated.

I aware of other games having a similar skill. The one that came to my mind was disengage, from the world of Warcraft hunter.

I'm also frankly not sold its fundamentally necessary. As it stands I don't think, and this is an assumption, that any melees would put the current bolt escape on their bars over their current gap closers, assuming they could. Remember you only get 5 abilities, why would you choose an ability that can land you not close enough to, or too far from your enemy when you can choose one that always gets you where you are at your strongest, in melee? Especially when it also does much better damage when it hits. And non melees? Ranged characters having escape kite tastic run away skills doesn't seem wrong, it seems right to me.

Also, and this surprised me... You mentioned nb invis as a "simple trap" that catches current bolt escapers off guard, which I could only read as semantics for counter play. If there is counter play, then I definitely can't see a problem.


I guess this is a way to phrase one of my problems with this suggested change. I don't think, (think, I suppose it's possible that it's the best thing ever) that a pvp game where everybody has a spamable movement ability has as much depth as it could.

This change would put the "niche" ability bolt escape in the same category of balance as cc break, combat role, and interrupt. Literally everyone would have a different cosmetic of the same thing. Except the poor sorcerers, who have to do the same thing as everyone else only backwards.

Can anybody else weigh in? Am I smoking crack?

For general travel (which IMO is really not a big deal as it barely affects combat) the Sorcerer still has options. Two of the four gap closers are usable by anyone (Critical Charge, Shield Charge), and Sorcerers also have Boundless Storm; which may be slower than Bolt Escape but is somewhat more economical.

Also remember that Sorcerers are not "ranged" characters. There's plenty of melee Sorcerers, just as there's plenty of ranged Templars and Nightblades and Dragonknights. My ranged DPS/healer Templar would absolutely love Bolt Escape, and my melee Templar would definitely have it on my off-bar: it makes it so much easier to gank (and avoid ganks).

I mentioned the NB stealth as a way to demonstrate how changing Bolt Escape to a backwards teleport improves combat awareness. If you are any good at PvP you wouldn't be fooled by such a simple ruse.

A ground-covering ability isn't what I'd call "niche" at all. Niche suggests it is only viable in certain builds. Almost all Sorcerers that can use Bolt Escape do use it, regardless of build. In fact a lot of the Sorc gankers I've run with use a 2Hander.

Harakh

I do not like the idea of making every gap closer usable without target, that makes the sprint speed bonus from medium armor useless cause every one will rush forward.

I would make the magicka cost higher with every bolt escape you use after 10 sec the magicka cost is back to base cost.

So you can blink one time with normal cost if you blink another time it is 20% higher magicka with every blink if you wait 10 sec, it is the base cost again.

LadyChaos

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

LadyChaos wrote: »

Sorcerers don't have an external heal, or a life tap, or a taunt, or in combat stealth... why not make all classes exactly the same. I think that would be swell.

Because none of those are essential functions in themselves except for the self-heal, and Sorcerers do in fact have multiple sources of healing (Dark Exchange, Blood Magic, Critical Surge).

First of all thy are not the ONLY ones with gap closers and I'm beginning to think everyone Who keeps saying that doesn't know anything about the game at all. There are at least 2 other gap closers open to all, not to mention class specific gap closers. Sorcerers bolt away when we don't want to commit to the fight. Leathers do their best to sneak away, Vamps Mist away, Assaulter sprint away, but because sorcy has a pretty obvious "you missed me" trail that shows it , you want to demand to get the same ability..

you already have couple similar options to all available, for different trade offs, go get bit, or give up your heals, chains, stealth+, and play a sorcerer if it is worth the trade off to you.

But since you like healing, wearing plate, leather, etc more than being a macicka battery, dress wearing, sorcerer that HAS to run when a stun-locking player is about to pounce, they are not worth the trade off for you. You get stunned, you die in this set up, regardless of being able to break it the first time, you wont live the for the next wave unless have other advantages over the player.

That entire line is our speed line. It is all about quick, lightening speed, magic regen and magic redux, just to make the spells viable.