Terrible, Terrible RvR

Bluejay

For the most part Elder Scrolls is a impressive game. Particularly the graphics. Some of the areas are amazing to the point that I often stop just to look at scenery.

But IMHO the RvR is the second worst I've ever encountered in 20 years of playing MMO's.

1. The RvR consists mostly of 10-15 minutes of running through empty terrain to get to a battle, then either kill all the opposing forces or be killed within 30 seconds. Rather you win or not the next step is 10-15 more minutes of running through empty terrain to get to the next objective.

2. Population distribution between the factions is a complete disaster. One faction or another is dominating almost all of the campaigns. My home campaign is so badly lop-sided one faction has 6 times the score of both of the other factions.

3. Resurrections in RvR are so costly that no one will rez anyone, leaving porting back to the spawn point the only option. At this point no one seems willing to buy spawn point tents either. Frankly there is little incentive to do either of these. When your players are completely ignoring two significant mechanics you have a design problem.

4. The combat mechanics and map design do nothing to dissuade zerg tactics, so zergging is the only thing that ever occurs.

5. Because of all the tedious running, rewards in either xp or gear are so much slower than PVE it's not worth it. If the RvR was fun it wouldn't matter, but there is no incentive to participate in RvR as it is right now.

Again, my opinions... feel free to disagree. But after two solid days of RvR I am completely done with this part of the game.

crusabella

I've yet to partake in this pvp (only level 7) but it saddens me that it sounds just like WvW in guild wars 2. Also very disappointed that they don't actually use the mega server technology and just have all 3 factions on one map, and not split among battle groups. Oh well ill just pve I suppose.

Shaun98ca2

You complain about the run and dieing and running back but don't think to bring a rez tent yourself?

So your out numbered by a faction, take your group into battle where there are already 2 factions battling and try to thin their numbers out till you win. Be a leader instead of a follower or don't complain about the tactics being used.

If you play a role other than DPS you might find your actually helping the group. There is SO much crowd control and buffs and support you can bring. Just make one role DPS and weapon swap to support to keep the battle in your favor.

Censorious

I agree with the OP. He's hit the nail on the head.

I don't know exactly what is causing the population imbalance but it's ruining any possibility of fun.

His other points agree with my own observations, particularly with regard to the cost of forward camps. The Soul Gem mechanic is too clumsy to be an alternative. Even the empty gems are too expensive in terms of gold and effort to fill them to essentially 'waste' on strangers.

I can't say I'm done with it. I bought this game for the sake of the RvR. It looked good in the beta so I know it can work.

holmen_89b16_ESO

Join a big guild. Plan PvP nights where you start a big group and roam through cyrodiil. Come back after you tried that. Puging is bad. Atleast have 7 of your friends with you.

joshisanonymous

Just relax and be wait a bit. The servers have literally been up for a week including early access. I guarantee you that the vast majority of the playerbase has not even considered getting into PvP yet. Hence, population levels and such.

You're also assuming a lot about resurrections. Hell, I spent two soul gems in one boss fight in PvE just because I wanted to make sure we'd win. It'd be the same in PvP once people get used to the system and decide that it's beneficial to have living teammates. Also, templars get passives that make resurrecting people much cheaper and more efficient.

The map is designed pretty wonderfully. Have you noticed how many hills and valleys there are? It's incredibly easy to find people en route to an objective and engage in a fight that others just run right by because they can't see what you're doing. Not to mention literally everyone can sneak, meaning you don't have to worry about getting run over by large groups when traveling. You also get as many points for a solo kill as you do for a keep capture (and that solo kill matters because that person has to actually travel back to the fight). Guerrilla tactics like taking (but not defending) resources with small groups to cut off supply lines is most definitely gonna be a normal thing. I mean, you even have large PvE areas in the zone where you can go gank people if you don't feel like zerging. And if you really have no choice but to defend, there have been videos posted showing how greatly outnumbered defends can still succeed.

I think you're jumping to conclusions without actually trying and, maybe more importantly, in a game mode that relies on population but which hardly anyone is actually partaking in yet. That's my opinion anyway, take it or leave it I guess.

Singular

I agree with the OP to some extent. The distances are so huge that the run times are ridiculous.

I noticed the same thing - no one was bringing tents to attack positions, which means that most attacks fail b/c of combatant attrition.

Since I die so fast - literally almost as soon as I engage - I'm going to just start bringing tents up to help my alliance. Because no one is doing it, I imagine this will be the first strategy to determine success.

And, yeah, the pvp here seems to overwhelmingly favor zerging and mass groups. Individuals just can't last long with all the CC, stunning and so on.

Saboer

You could guest different campaings to find one which has better faction balance and then switch your home campaing.

Iam playing on EU megaserver Auriel's Bow campaing and all factions are pretty equal score wise at the moment. Little population imbalance because Ebonhart has most players during the off hours.

For me it's the most fun PVP in any MMO. Like yesterday i spend like 8 hours in Cyrodiil because i couldn't stop fighting heh. I am struggling to find time to explore to PVE part of the game...

Sojan

At the risk of offending, you have only played for RvR for two days. In my opinion, that truely isn't enough time to competently evaluate the mechanics and overall design of Cyrodiil.

Furthermore, as Shaun98ca2 said, be a part of the solution and bring a tent yourself. Be a leader, not a follower; set an example for others to follow.

There is some more good advise in the threads that followed; keep in mind the game isn't even a full week old yet (not including early access). It will all work out before you know it. A baby cannot learn to walk before it crawls; an MMO is not going to go live flawlessly.

Jarnhand

I am comming from several MMOs, and also the best ever (maybe until now, time will tell) when it comes to PvP/RvR; DAoC.

A few notes:
- PvP/RvR is VERY hard to balance/get perfect, there will always be issues (hopefully they learned from daoc, no more 'doublefrost/left-axe nerfs' PLEASE!)
- There HAS to be a penalty for dying in AvAvA, or it would just be a constant nonstop suicide run, making the whole thing idiotic
- There has to be a strategic advantage for a realm to kill the enemy, there cannot be all the time repop, would never work
- As it is right now when the game is barely released; yes, there is a lot of running, this will change. More people will use tents and more people will have ALOT of gems to use for rez.
- The whole game need to settle in, there will be adjustments.
- Also a big part of the game for alot of people will be solo/small group pvp/ganking runners/respawners, you cannot just take away that whole part of the game with repop at action and never anyone running back/or reinforcing a raid/attack/defense.
- Right now also the whole AvAvA is not how it will be in about 1 month. Now 90% of all toons are below level 50, even below level 30. In about a month many more will be level 50, and things will change A LOT. Also a lot more rezzings will be normal.
- When it comes to population issues; yes there is an issue. I do not have all the facts here, but after what I have read Ebonheart(?) was the first realm that made it into beta, and MANY of beta testers went back to what they knew, since it would help them level faster. They also pulled a lot more players into the same realm.
- If this do not naturally balance out, my guess is that the underpop realm(s) will get bonuses (APs, exp etc), just like in daoc.
- I would say the game is clearly made for raids/sergs, it is not focused on solo/small group, its just a part of it. This is not and I hope it never will become a 'arena' epeen duel game, if so bye bye.
- And thankfully they have made the game so buffbots are useless, that became a big problem in daoc. If you were serious in daoc you needed 2 accounts, one afk toon just buffing the active toon that then went into pvp (of course also used in pve, but then more active semi-afk toon)

Short version; the game is brand spanking new! Things NEED to settle in and get adjusted to a real living server/game, not just a beta.

Toy

In my opinion the current rvr is downright terrible. 80% of the time you're not even fighting players, but walls/doors/tons of fkn overpowered npc guards on ultra short respawn timers, while getting two shot by annoying oil spammers. Cyrodiil is just a wast of time for anybody that's searching for relatively balanced/competitive pvp encounters. Zerg this, zerg that, you're melee? have fun being useless ~90% of the time, dying again? nice another pointless 5 min ride awaits....
Tbh only some sort of structured pvp could save this game for me, and it's kinda funny seing how people argue against it, because they fear it might drain players from Cyrodiil. Player that'd flock from Cyrodiil towars spvp are most likely those that will not stomach the unrewarding rvr zergfest for long anyways.

LilMcGinley

I'm not sure if y'alls opinions are from a lack of experience or looking a gift horse in the mouth.

Once you hit 50, guards are a non-factor, a group of 8 can clean a resource node.
Melee is super effective, not sure what you are running (Sword/board Sorc ftw).
One side is outnumbered? Who cares! Run around and FIND FIGHTS. On Hopesfire EP owns everything, we were still in PvP for 4 hours last night. Doing what? KILLING PLAYERS. Put keeps in combat and camp the paths between keeps, basic tactics...
Zergs get torn apart by competent guilds. Winning outnumbered 2:1 on a nightly basis.
Rezzing after 50 is a lot easier as well because the Grand Soul Gems drop in PvE. I think I have around 80 on me at any point in time.

tldr; pvp is a lot easier and better after you hit 50, just grind it out.

MorHawk

Bluejay wrote: »

2. Population distribution between the factions is a complete disaster. One faction or another is dominating almost all of the campaigns. My home campaign is so badly lop-sided one faction has 6 times the score of both of the other factions.

Not gonna waste my time reading the whole thread, so forgive me if this has been said, but you only need look at the population meters on the campaign list to see how daft this statement is. Most campaigns are 1 of 4 bars for all factions. Perhaps 10 campaigns was a bad idea at launch, but nonetheless. Give it at least until a large portion of the population hits 50.

Kewljag_66_ESO

I love this RVR system you just need to know where to go for the skirmishes and where the zergs are. if you follow the zerg then complain about not likeing zerg fights that is your fault. There is so many small man fights and ambushes it is ridiculous. You can easiliy run a roaming group and avoid the enemy zerg. remember everyone can sneak. the keep sieges and defense are also very good if you like that kind of PVP.

Traveling.... this actually makes where you are o the map important. if there is no travel death does not mean anything. the supplyline with keep porting is more than enough. Horses also reduce the travel time, once you level up your horses speed travel becomes greatly reduced.

You also have to understand most of the population is not yet PVPing most of the time, they are leveling in PVE so than can get higher leveling so they are more effective at PVP. This is how DAOC was also, PVP lacked for the first few months until people got leveled up.

Kewljag_66_ESO

Toy wrote: »

In my opinion the current rvr is downright terrible. 80% of the time you're not even fighting players, but walls/doors/tons of fkn overpowered npc guards on ultra short respawn timers, while getting two shot by annoying oil spammers. Cyrodiil is just a wast of time for anybody that's searching for relatively balanced/competitive pvp encounters. Zerg this, zerg that, you're melee? have fun being useless ~90% of the time, dying again? nice another pointless 5 min ride awaits....
Tbh only some sort of structured pvp could save this game for me, and it's kinda funny seing how people argue against it, because they fear it might drain players from Cyrodiil. Player that'd flock from Cyrodiil towars spvp are most likely those that will not stomach the unrewarding rvr zergfest for long anyways.

Other than the PVP people who only want to level threw PVP the majority is spending most their time trying to level up faster in PVE, even hardcore PVP people are in PVE right now. Sure people take few hours breaks to do PVP but getting leveled up is top priority. This how Darkage of Camelot was for the first few months as well. But trust me, once the majority of people get higher level and more people hit 50 you will see the campaign populations filling up more and the lesser sides having more people because the bigger sides are already capped.

The zerg issue also has a lot to do with low level. Most the people you see are level 10 to 35 currently and guards eat people up. Once there are actually groups of 50s roaming you can easiliy take on guards and the resource objectives. There will always be zergs taking and defending keeps but that is how it is suppose to be. Other than that zerging will give you very small rewards. this is not GW2 where you tag. your rewards are based off of damage. groups and skirmish players will make the best rewards. A solo level 50 kill will give better rewards than taking a keep!

You cant expect this PVP system to be going 100% in the first few weeks. Its going to take atleast a few months to get to 100%. But I can already tell from what I have seen in Cyrodiil that this will be an amazing PVP game just like DAOC was.

Kewljag_66_ESO

Bluejay wrote: »

For the most part Elder Scrolls is a impressive game. Particularly the graphics. Some of the areas are amazing to the point that I often stop just to look at scenery.

But IMHO the RvR is the second worst I've ever encountered in 20 years of playing MMO's.

1. The RvR consists mostly of 10-15 minutes of running through empty terrain to get to a battle, then either kill all the opposing forces or be killed within 30 seconds. Rather you win or not the next step is 10-15 more minutes of running through empty terrain to get to the next objective.

2. Population distribution between the factions is a complete disaster. One faction or another is dominating almost all of the campaigns. My home campaign is so badly lop-sided one faction has 6 times the score of both of the other factions.

3. Resurrections in RvR are so costly that no one will rez anyone, leaving porting back to the spawn point the only option. At this point no one seems willing to buy spawn point tents either. Frankly there is little incentive to do either of these. When your players are completely ignoring two significant mechanics you have a design problem.

4. The combat mechanics and map design do nothing to dissuade zerg tactics, so zergging is the only thing that ever occurs.

5. Because of all the tedious running, rewards in either xp or gear are so much slower than PVE it's not worth it. If the RvR was fun it wouldn't matter, but there is no incentive to participate in RvR as it is right now.

Again, my opinions... feel free to disagree. But after two solid days of RvR I am completely done with this part of the game.

Come back after atleast a month when there is more people leveled up and actually PVPing and more campaigns have balanced populations. This is how DAOC was the first few months as well but after that the PVP endgame became amazing

liquid_wolf

We have teams of 6 men on the least populated faction in our Cyrodiil.

We capture resources, and get into keeps to take them. It does get easier with 10-15 people and if we are unmolested... but the six of us still have a great time.

I'd love to have 50-100 players in a zerg, but people don't buy siege equipment or the shards to resurrect so that starts to ruin our fun.

We'd much rather stay in a smaller group, interrupt sieges and take out stragglers. Tear down siege equipment and create stalemates for the faction that is trying to take over things.

The idea of hundreds vs hundreds vs hundreds is a nice idea... but doesn't seem to be as rewarding as the coordinated strike team of 6-15 roaming the countryside, hitting the keeps, and taking over resources. Even the dungeons and anchors.

The zerg might own the keeps, but we own everything else and have free reign in Cyrodiil

Ziz

I don't understand... You pick an empty campaign and are complaining it's empty... Go to a full campaign, it's free and instant. Problem solved.

xPALERIDERx

So many great replies to this, let's summarize shall we:

1. LEVEL UP
2. GEAR UP
3. HAVE GOLD FOR EQUIPMENT (souls gems, potions, etc.)
4. ORGANIZE
5. NOW YOU CAN KILL, CONGRATS!!!!!

Until these steps are done then you can't see what the RvR end game really is. We ALL want to be 50, geared, and killing but it just doesn't work that way.

Laura

judges RvR within a couple weeks of the game being out before people can get on a certain level.... el oh el

This has been the best PvP I have ever experienced. I am only 33 and yes I get my ass handed to me by vr 10s. as it should be. I don't cry about it I just get my kicks then get back to leveling

Drachenfier

crusabella wrote: »

I've yet to partake in this pvp (only level 7) but it saddens me that it sounds just like WvW in guild wars 2. Also very disappointed that they don't actually use the mega server technology and just have all 3 factions on one map, and not split among battle groups. Oh well ill just pve I suppose.

Unfortunately yes, its more like GW2 RvR than Warhammer Online RvR, which the latter is what I was hoping for. RvR in Warhammer was just plain fun, this is not. As a matter of fact, its almost exactly like GW2 RvR.

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

You complain about the run and dieing and running back but don't think to bring a rez tent yourself?

I did, once. It was used up instantly as soon as I put it down....never even got to use it myself. Won't be doing that again.

mcatchlovb16_ESO

They should make tents cheaper so more people will use them.

Smellyfed

In beta and the last couple days before launch I was turning in that kill quest every 1/2 hour and generating enough AP every couple hours to purchase the 7k tent. Now it's such a rare occasion in PVP to see a Forward Camp placed that you're actually something of an instant-celebrity when you plop one.

With the kill quest nerf, the siege-economy has completely changed, and it's for the worse.

It's clear ESO wants you spending the majority of your time in PVE.

LilMcGinley

Drachenfier wrote: »

As a matter of fact, its almost exactly like GW2 RvR.

Did you even play GW2 WvW... The similarities between ESO AvA and GW2 are about 1% and that is the fact that keeps are involved and you can kill people...

xPALERIDERx

Smellyfed wrote: »

In beta and the last couple days before launch I was turning in that kill quest every 1/2 hour and generating enough AP every couple hours to purchase the 7k tent. Now it's such a rare occasion in PVP to see a Forward Camp placed that you're actually something of an instant-celebrity when you plop one.

With the kill quest nerf, the siege-economy has completely changed, and it's for the worse.

It's clear ESO wants you spending the majority of your time in PVE.

This also may be a way to force people level up in the "traditional" manor. This helps to insure that the starting zones are as full as can be when the official release dropped. I know my entire guild would have been in RvR from lvl 10 and on if we could efficiently level.

Lizard_man

LilMcGinley wrote: »

Once you hit 50

after you hit 50

Some of us have jobs, nor the time and/or patience to reach this level!

Kewljag_66_ESO

Smellyfed wrote: »

In beta and the last couple days before launch I was turning in that kill quest every 1/2 hour and generating enough AP every couple hours to purchase the 7k tent. Now it's such a rare occasion in PVP to see a Forward Camp placed that you're actually something of an instant-celebrity when you plop one.

With the kill quest nerf, the siege-economy has completely changed, and it's for the worse.

It's clear ESO wants you spending the majority of your time in PVE.

No the kill quest was leading to zerg tagging. just like it is in GW2 zerg everything, tag 1 hit on an enemy and get credit. turn in quest, get new quest and get right back with the zerg to do it again.

Other than that quest you cant tag to make good rewards. taking keeps doesn't even give good rewards. you need to actually kill people on your own or in groups against groups. This is the way it was intended. so when you are high rank it means you actually earned it. this is the same system from DAOC

Kewljag_66_ESO

Drachenfier wrote: »

crusabella wrote: »

I've yet to partake in this pvp (only level 7) but it saddens me that it sounds just like WvW in guild wars 2. Also very disappointed that they don't actually use the mega server technology and just have all 3 factions on one map, and not split among battle groups. Oh well ill just pve I suppose.

Unfortunately yes, its more like GW2 RvR than Warhammer Online RvR, which the latter is what I was hoping for. RvR in Warhammer was just plain fun, this is not. As a matter of fact, its almost exactly like GW2 RvR.

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

You complain about the run and dieing and running back but don't think to bring a rez tent yourself?

I did, once. It was used up instantly as soon as I put it down....never even got to use it myself. Won't be doing that again.

This system is very different from Warhammer and GW2. Its is very similar to Darkage of Camelot and Planet Side 2. I could list about 100 things Cyrodiil does better than GW2 WvW. From the map set up, to the goals, to the rewards, to PVP actually effecting PVE. Cyrodiil is superioir in every way compared to GW2.

Like I said people naterually zerg and are mainly doing it because everyone is low level and cant compete with guards yet. One people level up and realize that zerging is actually giving them minimal rewards you will start to see a lot more roaming groups and tactical play.

Lets look at rewards.. This is not GW2 you don't get full credit for tagging an enemy with the zerg. This works Like DAOC, you get the rewards for the damage your group did. So tagging or doing a few hits in a zerg gives you next to nothing, a faction of the points the player was worth. now running group vs group, solo, and skirmish fights will make you a lot of rewards.

Keeps and resources are not worth much to take, its defending them and getting player kills that will reward you. Killing a level 50 1v1 will give you more rewards than seiging a keep. this also means you will not see circleing or objective and keep trading

moXrox

Bluejay wrote: »

For the most part Elder Scrolls is a impressive game. Particularly the graphics. Some of the areas are amazing to the point that I often stop just to look at scenery.

But IMHO the RvR is the second worst I've ever encountered in 20 years of playing MMO's.

1. The RvR consists mostly of 10-15 minutes of running through empty terrain to get to a battle, then either kill all the opposing forces or be killed within 30 seconds. Rather you win or not the next step is 10-15 more minutes of running through empty terrain to get to the next objective.

2. Population distribution between the factions is a complete disaster. One faction or another is dominating almost all of the campaigns. My home campaign is so badly lop-sided one faction has 6 times the score of both of the other factions.

3. Resurrections in RvR are so costly that no one will rez anyone, leaving porting back to the spawn point the only option. At this point no one seems willing to buy spawn point tents either. Frankly there is little incentive to do either of these. When your players are completely ignoring two significant mechanics you have a design problem.

4. The combat mechanics and map design do nothing to dissuade zerg tactics, so zergging is the only thing that ever occurs.

5. Because of all the tedious running, rewards in either xp or gear are so much slower than PVE it's not worth it. If the RvR was fun it wouldn't matter, but there is no incentive to participate in RvR as it is right now.

Again, my opinions... feel free to disagree. But after two solid days of RvR I am completely done with this part of the game.

Its like a Battlefield/Call of Duty player is suddenly playing Armed Assault 2, a more
strategical game instead of an action shooter. If this game would have been just another GW2 zerg wvw with small maps, I would have maybe not bought the game even I really love the questing in ESO.

The RvR is actually one of the reasons why many bought this game, you could play it in the several weekend betas and see how it works and if you like it.

Well, everyone has a different taste of gameplay and its therefore good that you can choose from so many games out there. ESO is similar to DAOC pvp and that was actually missing in the last years.

LilMcGinley

Lizard_man wrote: »

LilMcGinley wrote: »

Once you hit 50

after you hit 50

Some of us have jobs, nor the time and/or patience to reach this level!

So you want everything just handed to you? You know this is an MMO right..? If you want this, you should look into SPvP in GW2.

vizionblind_ESO

Bluejay wrote: »

For the most part Elder Scrolls is a impressive game. Particularly the graphics. Some of the areas are amazing to the point that I often stop just to look at scenery.

But IMHO the RvR is the second worst I've ever encountered in 20 years of playing MMO's.

1. The RvR consists mostly of 10-15 minutes of running through empty terrain to get to a battle, then either kill all the opposing forces or be killed within 30 seconds. Rather you win or not the next step is 10-15 more minutes of running through empty terrain to get to the next objective.

2. Population distribution between the factions is a complete disaster. One faction or another is dominating almost all of the campaigns. My home campaign is so badly lop-sided one faction has 6 times the score of both of the other factions.

3. Resurrections in RvR are so costly that no one will rez anyone, leaving porting back to the spawn point the only option. At this point no one seems willing to buy spawn point tents either. Frankly there is little incentive to do either of these. When your players are completely ignoring two significant mechanics you have a design problem.

4. The combat mechanics and map design do nothing to dissuade zerg tactics, so zergging is the only thing that ever occurs.

5. Because of all the tedious running, rewards in either xp or gear are so much slower than PVE it's not worth it. If the RvR was fun it wouldn't matter, but there is no incentive to participate in RvR as it is right now.

Again, my opinions... feel free to disagree. But after two solid days of RvR I am completely done with this part of the game.

agree with #3