NB - Masteries (PVP)

olsborg · April 27

So nb masteries for pvp was very lackluster if you compared them to the other classes except maybe necro. But did I read the patch notes correctly, they actually nerfed them for pvp? Kinda shocking.

ItsNotLiving · April 27

Very shocking I’m very confused why some very meh passives are being treated like they would break PvP. Especially when the entire Dragonknight and Sorcerer kits are so far ahead.

olsborg · April 27

Yea the sorceror passives was so good, makes me want to play my sorceror more, but equally the nb passives wanted me to not play nb as much, but now the actually nerfed them further, heh.

Prionyx · April 27

olsborg wrote: »

So nb masteries for pvp was very lackluster if you compared them to the other classes except maybe necro. But did I read the patch notes correctly, they actually nerfed them for pvp? Kinda shocking.

This is a massive spit in the face, I can't believe they actually did this

xylena · April 27

Wild guess: their data showed that "animal assassins" was an unpopular meta, and that players do not in fact enjoy being one shotted. I wish they would get away from the one shot assassin power fantasy a bit (we have Dark Brotherhood for that) and lean more into the blood fueled power fantasy we saw in old popular NB builds like "sap tank" or axe bleed brawlers.

ArctosCethlenn · April 27

It's a joke, you are already at a massive disadvantage vs subclassed builds or reworked classes (dk), and the masteries that exist to fix this problem get extra neutered in pvp.

Prionyx · April 27

xylena wrote: »

Wild guess: their data showed that "animal assassins" was an unpopular meta, and that players do not in fact enjoy being one shotted. I wish they would get away from the one shot assassin power fantasy a bit (we have Dark Brotherhood for that) and lean more into the blood fueled power fantasy we saw in old popular NB builds like "sap tank" or axe bleed brawlers.

Yeah they nerfed passives for PURE CLASS becuase NB was MULTICLASSED with warden, while NB doesn't have any delayed burst without it. Valid reason

xylena · April 27

Prionyx wrote: »

Valid reason

They don't want Pure NB to be one shotting in PvP because it's unpopular gameplay.

ArctosCethlenn · April 27

xylena wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

Valid reason

They don't want Pure NB to be one shotting in PvP because it's unpopular gameplay.

Folks've made plenty of suggestions for ways to address that over the years because yeah, one shots/pubstomp skills are bad.

But again a subclassed combo should not be a factor here, you can not have shalks and bow with nb masteries so it is a completely different issue and entirely irrelevant.

xylena · April 27

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

But again a subclassed combo should not be a factor here, you can not have shalks and bow with nb masteries so it is a completely different issue and entirely irrelevant.

Like New DK, the eventual New NB will be stronger than an animal assassin, the devs are designing the passives with the rework (and general powercreep) in mind. Yes it sucks to wait. But it would be cool if they could figure out how to buff the class to bring back sap tank or brawler playstyles.

Major_Mangle · April 27

Agree, don´t understand the point of even having a crit damage class mastery which isn´t even worth running over the current animal/assassin/[stormcalling/restoring] setup. Pure NB has so much counterplay in PvP when it comes to not getting one tapped by bow proc (literally hold block because NB has nothing solid in it´s toolkit to reliably deal with that, and don´t say Fear because it doesn´t guarantee you to land follow up burst).

ArctosCethlenn · April 27

xylena wrote: »

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

But again a subclassed combo should not be a factor here, you can not have shalks and bow with nb masteries so it is a completely different issue and entirely irrelevant.

Like New DK, the eventual New NB will be stronger than an animal assassin, the devs are designing the passives with the rework (and general powercreep) in mind. Yes it sucks to wait. But it would be cool if they could figure out how to buff the class to bring back sap tank or brawler playstyles.

They've already said the masteries will be changed as the reworks happen, so no, the passives are not designed with the rework in mind. They're a stopgap to bring up pureclass builds vs subclassed so people aren't waiting two years for classes to get their crap fixed.

edit: and while it isn't perfect, they are making moves to help the non-ganky-stabby-guy nightblades, I'm not happy with the mastery situation but the adjustment to pressure points is anywhere from good to very good for a pure nb who isn't assassination focused*, and a slight nerf to subclassed nonsense.

ManDraKE · April 27

At this point you will have to be a masochist to run nightblade in PvP next patch. It was already the weakeast class for PvP on PTS, and now they nerfed even more while buffing other classes

Rohamad_Ali · April 27

We always getting the shaft.

danko355 · April 27

xylena wrote: »

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

But again a subclassed combo should not be a factor here, you can not have shalks and bow with nb masteries so it is a completely different issue and entirely irrelevant.

Like New DK, the eventual New NB will be stronger than an animal assassin, the devs are designing the passives with the rework (and general powercreep) in mind. Yes it sucks to wait. But it would be cool if they could figure out how to buff the class to bring back sap tank or brawler playstyles.

This is exactly the opposite of true.

Class Masteries are being released to balance the exact situation where some classes are getting reworks earlier than others. Masteries could be a gap closer between classes that are already reworked and those that are not yet. When the Nightblade rework is finally released, the masteries could be toned down.

What we get now is just a disappointment, and it makes Nightblade one of the worst solo PvP classes in the game.

Necromancer gets perks that drastically increase their damage, stamina, and health sustain exactly because they are lacking right now, not because of some future vision of the class.

What do Nightblades get now? 5% Critical Damage and Healing in PvP? That is just laughable.

xylena · April 27

It still shouldn't get a big dumb pile of free crit stats. Old NB had things like powerful lifesteal, powerful heal debuffs, bleed dot synergy, hp regen synergy. Sure you can technically have those things but they are weak now compared to old NB builds. Class Mastery could resurrect these playstyles and buff the class overall without pushing busted one shot setups.

danko355 · April 27

xylena wrote: »

It still shouldn't get a big dumb pile of free crit stats. Old NB had things like powerful lifesteal, powerful heal debuffs, bleed dot synergy, hp regen synergy. Sure you can technically have those things but they are weak now compared to old NB builds. Class Mastery could resurrect these playstyles and buff the class overall without pushing busted one shot setups.

Yeah, it really could. Instead we get nothing.

ArctosCethlenn · April 27

xylena wrote: »

It still shouldn't get a big dumb pile of free crit stats. Old NB had things like powerful lifesteal, powerful heal debuffs, bleed dot synergy, hp regen synergy. Sure you can technically have those things but they are weak now compared to old NB builds. Class Mastery could resurrect these playstyles and buff the class overall without pushing busted one shot setups.

Class mastery needs to buff the class as a whole, not recreate other playstyles. You don't want crit damage fine the mastery doesn't need to be crit damage, it just needs to be something other than an insulting slap in the face compared to every other class.

Also, bleed dot synergy? When did nightblade have anything to do with bleeds lmao. I'm going to cry laughing if you mention master's dualwield.

xylena · April 27

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

I'm going to cry laughing if you mention master's dualwield.

Maybe Master 2H Axe would've been more to your liking. I used both together on NB for 2+ years before they deleted the playstyle. I enjoyed the aesthetics of matching the bleed mechanics to the class blood-fueled subtheme, and being able to add dot pressure without replacing class direct dmg skills (or wear proc sets) was efficient mechanical synergy.

The one shot assassin power fantasy will never be balanced outside Dark Brotherhood.

ArctosCethlenn · April 27

Those weapon sets have nothing to do with nightblade. It's entirely unimportant and irrelevant to a discussion about the class mastery.

As someone who plays a pure, siphoner magblade in pvp, a bloodmage, the damage masteries do not need to focus on one single aspect of the class's damage kit. They need to improve the class's damage as a whole to help it compete with a build which is using subclassing.

Prionyx · April 27

xylena wrote: »

It still shouldn't get a big dumb pile of free crit stats. Old NB had things like powerful lifesteal, powerful heal debuffs, bleed dot synergy, hp regen synergy. Sure you can technically have those things but they are weak now compared to old NB builds. Class Mastery could resurrect these playstyles and buff the class overall without pushing busted one shot setups.

NB doesn't have any access to "one shots" without multiclassing, what are you talking about? There is no delayed burst and anyone with half a brain will dodge bow shot after incap

danko355 · April 27

xylena wrote: »

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

I'm going to cry laughing if you mention master's dualwield.

Maybe Master 2H Axe would've been more to your liking. I used both together on NB for 2+ years before they deleted the playstyle. I enjoyed the aesthetics of matching the bleed mechanics to the class blood-fueled subtheme, and being able to add dot pressure without replacing class direct dmg skills (or wear proc sets) was efficient mechanical synergy.

The one shot assassin power fantasy will never be balanced outside Dark Brotherhood.

What are you talking about? One shot power fantasy? In NIGHTBLADE kit? Are we in 2018 or something? Literally any other class has better one shot potential in PVP right now. New DK has Flame Lash with 5 proc bow equivalents stacked, plus tons of delayed damage. Sorc has crystal frags + curse and now tons of damage thanks to Class Mastery. The only combo Nightblade has is Incap into Spectral, which is predictable and easiest to avoid out of all the combos.

shadoza · April 27

olsborg wrote: »

So nb masteries for pvp was very lackluster if you compared them to the other classes except maybe necro. But did I read the patch notes correctly, they actually nerfed them for pvp? Kinda shocking.

I was shocked as well. Especially where the hidden notes suggests this HELPs NB somehow.

NB at the humble beginnings was the best and most balanced class for solo runners in the game. It has, over the years, been nerffed to its death. Considering all the focus on grouping and guild work and now another nerf, I think the development team really hates solo runners in the game.

Prionyx · April 27

danko355 wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

I'm going to cry laughing if you mention master's dualwield.

Maybe Master 2H Axe would've been more to your liking. I used both together on NB for 2+ years before they deleted the playstyle. I enjoyed the aesthetics of matching the bleed mechanics to the class blood-fueled subtheme, and being able to add dot pressure without replacing class direct dmg skills (or wear proc sets) was efficient mechanical synergy.

The one shot assassin power fantasy will never be balanced outside Dark Brotherhood.

What are you talking about? One shot power fantasy? In NIGHTBLADE kit? Are we in 2018 or something? Literally any other class has better one shot potential in PVP right now. New DK has Flame Lash with 5 proc bow equivalents stacked, plus tons of delayed damage. Sorc has crystal frags + curse and now tons of damage thanks to Class Mastery. The only combo Nightblade has is Incap into Spectral, which is predictable and easiest to avoid out of all the combos.

Brother, don't bother. They just see 15k bow proc in death recap and think "damn, that's too much! my blastbones deals 3k less damage, NB is op!", they never go deeper to realize how weak NB's burst is compared to other classes

Estin · April 27

Yeah, the Nightblade Passives are probably the worse. A 5% bonus to crit damage? You can subclass out any line other than assassination for aedric spear or animal companions and see a 10-15% bonus to crit damage. The increase in the crit cap is not going to see any benefit in any scenario other than a khajiit gank build with axes and in medium armor with order's wrath and back-alley gourmand. Here's a list of all crit damage buffs you need to have in order to see the max benefit. Feel free to add any that I missed.

Minor force - 10%
Major force - 20%
2x Axes - 12%
Hemorrhage - 10%
7x Medium Armor - 14%
Fighting Finesse - 8%
Khajiit - 12%
Class Mastery - 5%
Order's Wrath - 8%
Back-Alley Gourmand - 13%

75% is the current crit damage cap. 110% is the crit damage cap with the class passive. Having everything listed above will put you at 112% crit damage, so only 2% is going to get wasted. While it may sound nice to have that much crit damage, you're going to have near 0 survivability and 0 pen outside major breach and maybe minor breach if you go with surprise attack over concealed weapon. Now here's a list on what an average brawl build would look like.

Minor force - 10%
Major force - 20%
Hemorrhage - 10%
3x Medium Armor - 6%
Fighting Finesse - 8%
Khajiit - 12%
Class Mastery - 5%

That brings you to 71% crit damage. If you're not a khajiit, which is really common, it's going to be even less. You could swap out your offensive set for Back-Alley Gourmand, but would it be worth losing the proc damage from null arca or tarnished nightmare? Not to mention, you have to live with Shadow and Siphoning. Your only damage is SA spam with incap into spec bow. You can easily do the Assassination/Animal Companions/Storm Calling setup and get to the 75% crit damage cap while having a delayed burst skill, a cleanse, much better maneuverability, and arguably more weapon damage compared to the other NB passive which is what I want to get into next.

Eye for Exploitation received a minor nerf, but it doesn't matter since the passive is still not going to see any real benefit. A lot from what I've seen on PTS is that every class has enough healing to keep them at full HP, meaning the scaling weapon damage from this passive is really not going to do anything other than buff your healing from the high damage the other classes, along with werewolf, will be getting.

I was hoping for NBs to see a buff to their passives, but it looks like they only got a buff on the PvE side. They needed a buff there, yes, but NBs are looking to be one of if not the worst class in PvP if you don't want to be a ganker. Even if you want to be a ganker, there are better options with subclassing. I don't see force pulse ganking being outdone by the crit damage cap increase pure nightblades will be getting. Meanwhile, all other classes are receiving buffs to their passives.

Vaqual · April 27

Estin wrote: »

Yeah, the Nightblade Passives are probably the worse. A 5% bonus to crit damage? You can subclass out any line other than assassination for aedric spear or animal companions and see a 10-15% bonus to crit damage. The increase in the crit cap is not going to see any benefit in any scenario other than a khajiit gank build with axes and in medium armor with order's wrath and back-alley gourmand. Here's a list of all crit damage buffs you need to have in order to see the max benefit. Feel free to add any that I missed.
Minor force - 10%

Major force - 20%

2x Axes - 12%

Hemorrhage - 10%

7x Medium Armor - 14%

Fighting Finesse - 8%

Khajiit - 12%

Class Mastery - 5%

Order's Wrath - 8%

Back-Alley Gourmand - 13%

75% is the current crit damage cap. 110% is the crit damage cap with the class passive. Having everything listed above will put you at 112% crit damage, so only 2% is going to get wasted. While it may sound nice to have that much crit damage, you're going to have near 0 survivability and 0 pen outside major breach and maybe minor breach if you go with surprise attack over concealed weapon. Now here's a list on what an average brawl build would look like.
Minor force - 10%

Major force - 20%

Hemorrhage - 10%

3x Medium Armor - 6%

Fighting Finesse - 8%

Khajiit - 12%

Class Mastery - 5%

That brings you to 71% crit damage. You could swap out your offensive set for Back-Alley Gourmand, but would it be worth losing the proc damage from null arca or tarnished nightmare? Not to mention, you have to live with Shadow and Siphoning. Your only damage is SA spam with incap into spec bow. You can easily do the Assassination/Animal Companions/Storm Calling setup and get to the 75% crit damage cap while having a delayed burst skill, a cleanse, much better maneuverability, and arguably more weapon damage compared to the other NB passive which is what I want to get into next.

Eye for Exploitation received a minor nerf, but it doesn't matter since the passive is still not going to see any real benefit. A lot from what I've seen on PTS is that every class has enough healing to keep them at full HP, meaning the scaling weapon damage from this passive is really not going to do anything other than buff your healing from the high damage the other classes, along with werewolf, will be getting.

I was hoping for NBs to see a buff to their passives, but it looks like they only got a buff on the PvE side. They needed a buff there, yes, but NBs are looking to be one of if not the worst class in PvP if you don't want to be a ganker. Even if you want to be a ganker, there are better options with subclassing. I don't see force pulse ganking being outdone by the crit damage cap increase pure nightblades will be getting. Meanwhile, all other classes are receiving buffs to their passives.

Not disagreeing or anything, but you missed those:
Shadow Mundus 11-18%
Backstabber 10%

xylena · April 28

Prionyx wrote: »

they never go deeper to realize how weak NB's burst is compared to other classes

Multiple times I mentioned multiple mechanical axes they can buff NB creating new playstyles other than "look mom I'm the finger of god" but hey, few things in this game more delicious than the tears of a burst-only player crying that they can't one shot anymore.

Kleoxcv · April 28

Do we all have amnesia? Pure NB has 1/2 shot potential. For a long time I has had it, even before subclassing.

Now it has even more crit damage and execute scaling class mastery that gives it 1000 weapon and spell damage.

Just watch how strong NB will be when it goes live

Prionyx · April 28

Kleoxcv wrote: »

Do we all have amnesia? Pure NB has 1/2 shot potential. For a long time I has had it, even before subclassing.

Now it has even more crit damage and execute scaling class mastery that gives it 1000 weapon and spell damage.

Just watch how strong NB will be when it goes live

No it's not and didn't since 2019. Either tell how or stop trying to mislead ZOS and trying to make NB dead because you don't like this class.