Update 50 PTS – Week 2 Summary

Wuuffyy

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Just give Werewolf a second bar and 5 more active abilities. Spread the power out between all 10 Werewolf Active Abilities and encourage us to bar swap.

At least then we'd have no excuse not to be comparable to a Class. And we'd finally get to do the bar swap mechanic in Cloudrest as an added bonus.

Please! I will take 15 fluffin' actives myself if you just balance it like whatever the 'normal' is.

I didn't ask for this 5-bar-wonder to be forced upon me (although I don't mind it regardless and feels more 'rampag-y').

But it took 10 years to reach this point, and we unfortunately, prior to recently, had very little communication on the matter also. I fear that this may very well be our 'one and done' aside from any prospective nerfs.

Erickson9610

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Just give Werewolf a second bar and 5 more active abilities. Spread the power out between all 10 Werewolf Active Abilities and encourage us to bar swap.

At least then we'd have no excuse not to be comparable to a Class. And we'd finally get to do the bar swap mechanic in Cloudrest as an added bonus.

Please! I will take 15 fluffin' actives myself if you just balance it like whatever the 'normal' is.

I didn't ask for this 5-bar-wonder to be forced upon me (although I don't mind it regardless and feels more 'rampag-y').

But it took 10 years to reach this point, and we unfortunately, prior to recently, had very little communication on the matter also. I fear that this may very well be our 'one and done' aside from any prospective nerfs.

All I want is for Werewolf to be a viable playstyle. I don't want it to be inferior (or even superior) to other options.

Even just one more Werewolf ability (such as a Scribing Grimoire for Werewolf) would increase the build complexity of the playstyle (you now have to swap one ability out for another, whoa!) and hopefully make it more worthy of being as powerful as a "regular" build.

PeacefulAnarchy

Freelancer_ESO wrote: »

Personally, I'm not really a big fan of the Empower change.

My impression is that for anyone with less than +40% damage done besides Empower the change is a buff which isn't really needed for the Overland experience.

Oakensoul has minor berserk and minor slayer which are 5% each (these aren't hard buffs to get if you're not running oaken). Weapons Expert is an essential CP for HA builds, that's 20%. If Sorc you have 5% to lightning damage. Direct Aim CP is 6%.
So almost any HA build will have 36%, sorcs will have 41%. It's not really a buff for almost anyone. It's just bringing the floor back to where it is on live, and still lowering the ceiling. It's the least they could do.

IncultaWolf

Wup_sa wrote: »

Why no WW nerfs so far? Its heavily (which puts it lightly) overperforming in pvp atm. Youll create worse balance than subclassing ever did if you release it like that and that is coming from someone who despises subclassing more than anything.

Pure sorcs are farming werewolves in duels on pts. But you're fine with Dragonknights insta nuking people while having more utility than ww. The bias is real because it's not your class/playstyle. Some things never change.

The interactions with class mastery passives is the issue, not werewolf itself.

coop500

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Just give Werewolf a second bar and 5 more active abilities. Spread the power out between all 10 Werewolf Active Abilities and encourage us to bar swap.

At least then we'd have no excuse not to be comparable to a Class. And we'd finally get to do the bar swap mechanic in Cloudrest as an added bonus.

Please! I will take 15 fluffin' actives myself if you just balance it like whatever the 'normal' is.

I didn't ask for this 5-bar-wonder to be forced upon me (although I don't mind it regardless and feels more 'rampag-y').

But it took 10 years to reach this point, and we unfortunately, prior to recently, had very little communication on the matter also. I fear that this may very well be our 'one and done' aside from any prospective nerfs.

All I want is for Werewolf to be a viable playstyle. I don't want it to be inferior (or even superior) to other options.

Even just one more Werewolf ability (such as a Scribing Grimoire for Werewolf) would increase the build complexity of the playstyle (you now have to swap one ability out for another, whoa!) and hopefully make it more worthy of being as powerful as a "regular" build.

Agreed, I don't even want it meta, I really just want it viable and playable. RN Live is treated as a joke, and I hope we don't get instantly left behind in two updates because it had to be nerfed so much in PTS while all the other classes gain like 20%+ more power.

YandereGirlfriend

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Just give Werewolf a second bar and 5 more active abilities. Spread the power out between all 10 Werewolf Active Abilities and encourage us to bar swap.

At least then we'd have no excuse not to be comparable to a Class. And we'd finally get to do the bar swap mechanic in Cloudrest as an added bonus.

I think this would be a great idea!

BattleAxe

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Just give Werewolf a second bar and 5 more active abilities. Spread the power out between all 10 Werewolf Active Abilities and encourage us to bar swap.

At least then we'd have no excuse not to be comparable to a Class. And we'd finally get to do the bar swap mechanic in Cloudrest as an added bonus.

Why not instead turn werewolf and vampire into their own fully fledged class with 3 skill lines each solve several things in one shot buffing both werewolf and vampire play styles as well as satisfy the urge for new classes for game.

Wuuffyy

BattleAxe wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Just give Werewolf a second bar and 5 more active abilities. Spread the power out between all 10 Werewolf Active Abilities and encourage us to bar swap.

At least then we'd have no excuse not to be comparable to a Class. And we'd finally get to do the bar swap mechanic in Cloudrest as an added bonus.

Why not instead turn werewolf and vampire into their own fully fledged class with 3 skill lines each solve several things in one shot buffing both werewolf and vampire play styles as well as satisfy the urge for new classes for game.

I'm going to be real with you in that I would LOVE if they did this, especially with vampire that lacks SO MUCH with roleplaying and needs ANY rework right now...

But that's a LOT of work, and these are 'optional playstyles' at that. I'd say we were 'lucky' to get this rework(hence I'm trying to pursue the best of a 'pigeonholed' situation).

BattleAxe

Wuuffyy wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Just give Werewolf a second bar and 5 more active abilities. Spread the power out between all 10 Werewolf Active Abilities and encourage us to bar swap.

At least then we'd have no excuse not to be comparable to a Class. And we'd finally get to do the bar swap mechanic in Cloudrest as an added bonus.

Why not instead turn werewolf and vampire into their own fully fledged class with 3 skill lines each solve several things in one shot buffing both werewolf and vampire play styles as well as satisfy the urge for new classes for game.

I'm going to be real with you in that I would LOVE if they did this, especially with vampire that lacks SO MUCH with roleplaying and needs ANY rework right now...

But that's a LOT of work, and these are 'optional playstyles' at that. I'd say we were 'lucky' to get this rework(hence I'm trying to pursue the best of a 'pigeonholed' situation).

What it could be instead of on character creation they instead have the werewolf and vampire class replace bad class skills so u can have your initial class and with the armory system you can set up essentially 2 different classes on one character. Ik to fully flush out 3 skill lines for both vamp and werewolf would be a huge undertaking but that doesn’t mean impossible just that it would likely be something to visit after class refresh is done. Can even use the idea to build a full zone/ story for pick a daedric prince or 2 to be the big bad and hircine and molag bal have to team up to stop them from becoming top daedric prince.

Erickson9610

BattleAxe wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Just give Werewolf a second bar and 5 more active abilities. Spread the power out between all 10 Werewolf Active Abilities and encourage us to bar swap.

At least then we'd have no excuse not to be comparable to a Class. And we'd finally get to do the bar swap mechanic in Cloudrest as an added bonus.

Why not instead turn werewolf and vampire into their own fully fledged class with 3 skill lines each solve several things in one shot buffing both werewolf and vampire play styles as well as satisfy the urge for new classes for game.

Ultimately, this would be for the best. Werewolf would then be worthy of having crouch/sneak animations loaded into Cyrodiil (part of the reason they aren't is because other Classes need animations for their reworks, too) and Werewolf would be on the same level as other playstyles. We'd for sure get Werewolf represented in the Vengeance, Companions, and Scribing systems, because all Classes are.

Instead, Werewolf is currently considered a "pseudo Class" (the term "subclass" now has a different meaning) at best, unworthy of the attention that the other Classes get. And don't forget about Vampire, which is currently relegated to being just a single skill line that you cherry pick skills from (like Psijic Order) because you aren't meant to use them as a cohesive kit the way you're meant to use Werewolf.

Faltasë

Dracane wrote: »

Please go no further than Static Reverberation for Sorc. This mostly affects specific builds who exploit this to the fullest or dummy parses. But Conservation of Energy and Font of Power already are considerably weaker than first proposed and are needed by a wide variety of Sorc builds, both in pve (tanks and healers) as well as various pvp builds.

Touching this because of a few extremes can't be good. The majority has to be considered before a fringe minority. The values are already overly harsh for most builds. (1750 magicka for 1% of spell damage)

Yeah them saying that Sorc needs a gentle nerf is really telling on how they manage combat balance. I get that parses are a good indicator of single target DPS, but they are honestly the worse way to understand how someone does in normal content. Especially when very few people can do 180k+ in general.

The Sorc does not need a nerf.

BattleAxe

Faltasë wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Please go no further than Static Reverberation for Sorc. This mostly affects specific builds who exploit this to the fullest or dummy parses. But Conservation of Energy and Font of Power already are considerably weaker than first proposed and are needed by a wide variety of Sorc builds, both in pve (tanks and healers) as well as various pvp builds.

Touching this because of a few extremes can't be good. The majority has to be considered before a fringe minority. The values are already overly harsh for most builds. (1750 magicka for 1% of spell damage)

Yeah them saying that Sorc needs a gentle nerf is really telling on how they manage combat balance. I get that parses are a good indicator of single target DPS, but they are honestly the worse way to understand how someone does in normal content. Especially when very few people can do 180k+ in general.

The Sorc does not need a nerf.

Making changes over a select few that min max something to fullest will not help balance when considering those players versus general population are on 2 entirely different levels. As well as dueling and dummy parses aren’t good metrics as they don’t account for ever changing situations like over trial and dungeon mechanics. In PvP not every encounter will be 1v1 it’s more often group versus group 1vX or Xv1. So a skill in a duel that seems strong when you account for fighting in a multiplayer situation may not be as strong when you take group heals and purges into account.

Faltasë

BattleAxe wrote: »

Faltasë wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Please go no further than Static Reverberation for Sorc. This mostly affects specific builds who exploit this to the fullest or dummy parses. But Conservation of Energy and Font of Power already are considerably weaker than first proposed and are needed by a wide variety of Sorc builds, both in pve (tanks and healers) as well as various pvp builds.

Touching this because of a few extremes can't be good. The majority has to be considered before a fringe minority. The values are already overly harsh for most builds. (1750 magicka for 1% of spell damage)

Yeah them saying that Sorc needs a gentle nerf is really telling on how they manage combat balance. I get that parses are a good indicator of single target DPS, but they are honestly the worse way to understand how someone does in normal content. Especially when very few people can do 180k+ in general.

The Sorc does not need a nerf.

Making changes over a select few that min max something to fullest will not help balance when considering those players versus general population are on 2 entirely different levels. As well as dueling and dummy parses aren’t good metrics as they don’t account for ever changing situations like over trial and dungeon mechanics. In PvP not every encounter will be 1v1 it’s more often group versus group 1vX or Xv1. So a skill in a duel that seems strong when you account for fighting in a multiplayer situation may not be as strong when you take group heals and purges into account.

Yeah that's also true. I don't know, I feel pretty worried now that ZoS is starting to relay they may go their old route of combat balance again. Their older nerf/buff cycles based on what the min/maxers did/still do is one of the reasons I originally quit this game for a few years. Balancing this game based on *just* the one percent top performers has always been this games worst development trait.

If they continue to do that, there's no reason to even bother being excited about changes anymore, because at that point it'll just be the same old bs they've always done. I really hope the class refreshes prove me wrong, but this sort of *** is so discouraging as a Sorcerer.

CatalinaWineMixer2

Faltasë wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

Faltasë wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Please go no further than Static Reverberation for Sorc. This mostly affects specific builds who exploit this to the fullest or dummy parses. But Conservation of Energy and Font of Power already are considerably weaker than first proposed and are needed by a wide variety of Sorc builds, both in pve (tanks and healers) as well as various pvp builds.

Touching this because of a few extremes can't be good. The majority has to be considered before a fringe minority. The values are already overly harsh for most builds. (1750 magicka for 1% of spell damage)

Yeah them saying that Sorc needs a gentle nerf is really telling on how they manage combat balance. I get that parses are a good indicator of single target DPS, but they are honestly the worse way to understand how someone does in normal content. Especially when very few people can do 180k+ in general.

The Sorc does not need a nerf.

Making changes over a select few that min max something to fullest will not help balance when considering those players versus general population are on 2 entirely different levels. As well as dueling and dummy parses aren’t good metrics as they don’t account for ever changing situations like over trial and dungeon mechanics. In PvP not every encounter will be 1v1 it’s more often group versus group 1vX or Xv1. So a skill in a duel that seems strong when you account for fighting in a multiplayer situation may not be as strong when you take group heals and purges into account.

Yeah that's also true. I don't know, I feel pretty worried now that ZoS is starting to relay they may go their old route of combat balance again. Their older nerf/buff cycles based on what the min/maxers did/still do is one of the reasons I originally quit this game for a few years. Balancing this game based on *just* the one percent top performers has always been this games worst development trait.

If they continue to do that, there's no reason to even bother being excited about changes anymore, because at that point it'll just be the same old bs they've always done. I really hope the class refreshes prove me wrong, but this sort of *** is so discouraging as a Sorcerer.

Well said. The game is to be designed around the majority of players not the other way around. 35 more veteran players threw in the towel in a week one guild today. And my prog group is gone now. This talk of eliminating or substituting healers is folly at best. And im one of those Healers. I heal in both PvP and PvE. Ive been healing a lot more since the Subclassing disaster made me not want to Dps anymore. When my Warden was taken off of leaderboards for blender builds. Any thought of more damage beyond what we already achieve (and it's already way too high) is insanity. Subclassing needs reigned in and it does not and should not nor have ever been the meta to begin with. Iy should be removed for a rules based order with actual standards. No one should be able to have every buff or be able to cherry pick them. This talk of trimming HA builds is a huge mistake. Half of what is left of our broken guilds will leave because that is all they enjoy or play. Take the Oakensoul ring away or make it worse and you're going to have a mass exodus. They get buffs others do not by giving away half of their royation and more than that if they are a pet sorc. Ask any player over 50 if they can light attack weave. And how well. Ive said this before, but we need a departure from 10 more years of the same. People are still leaving. And more and more of us are watching this more closely and with far more scrutiny than ever before.

Malyore

If there are only niche or specialized cases of over performance (like with the werewolves duels folks keep mentioning) then wouldn't the first place of adjustment be to limit those specialized and niche cases before nerfing something for every user across all of gameplay?

Something like "this effect is reduced while in werewolf form" or "you can only receive a maximum of ___ additional weapon/spell damage from this effect"
...Or even something absurdly particular like "players take X% less damage from you if you deal Y amount of damage within a 2 second period while your weapon/spell damage stat exceeds Z value"

Just some form of effort that smooths out wherever ZOS is seeing overperformance, while not affecting everyone else who is still underperforming compared to subclassing?

coop500

Faltasë wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

Faltasë wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Please go no further than Static Reverberation for Sorc. This mostly affects specific builds who exploit this to the fullest or dummy parses. But Conservation of Energy and Font of Power already are considerably weaker than first proposed and are needed by a wide variety of Sorc builds, both in pve (tanks and healers) as well as various pvp builds.

Touching this because of a few extremes can't be good. The majority has to be considered before a fringe minority. The values are already overly harsh for most builds. (1750 magicka for 1% of spell damage)

Yeah them saying that Sorc needs a gentle nerf is really telling on how they manage combat balance. I get that parses are a good indicator of single target DPS, but they are honestly the worse way to understand how someone does in normal content. Especially when very few people can do 180k+ in general.

The Sorc does not need a nerf.

Making changes over a select few that min max something to fullest will not help balance when considering those players versus general population are on 2 entirely different levels. As well as dueling and dummy parses aren’t good metrics as they don’t account for ever changing situations like over trial and dungeon mechanics. In PvP not every encounter will be 1v1 it’s more often group versus group 1vX or Xv1. So a skill in a duel that seems strong when you account for fighting in a multiplayer situation may not be as strong when you take group heals and purges into account.

Yeah that's also true. I don't know, I feel pretty worried now that ZoS is starting to relay they may go their old route of combat balance again. Their older nerf/buff cycles based on what the min/maxers did/still do is one of the reasons I originally quit this game for a few years. Balancing this game based on *just* the one percent top performers has always been this games worst development trait.

If they continue to do that, there's no reason to even bother being excited about changes anymore, because at that point it'll just be the same old bs they've always done. I really hope the class refreshes prove me wrong, but this sort of *** is so discouraging as a Sorcerer.

I couldn't agree more, that's why I'm so scared for werewolf. I feared what would happen with it being refreshed alongside new, crazy mythics AND class masteries, it'd become a unjustified victim of nerfs when a more gentle touch is needed. Same for Sorc too.

I 100% quit over the game being balanced for the top 5% of players, and will do so again if that's where they're going again. Forum users are the loud minority, not the true population.

SkaiFaith

SkaiFaith wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

Empower [Feedback]: Thanks to many of the discussions and breakdowns of popular use cases, we’re making some adjustments to the values for certain effects that saw a reduction in power after the combat calculation changes with Damage Done to Monsters. Most of these are not huge bumps in power that immediately make them as strong as they were in all cases (since the loss of power is still highly subjective to many factors) but should help them feel more competitive with other bonuses. Empower is the most notable increase, going from 70% to 100% - but will come with a stipulation that the damage bonus will no longer apply while the effect holder has Battle Spirit, to correct some of the extreme damage possible against players in PvPvE situations. We are also not increasing every bonus, namely Velothi, as its power offered is still quite dense even after the changes.

Awesome!!
i am very happy that Empower's bonus to Heavy Attacks will be 100% instead of 70%.
♥

Yeah, but... Isn't this exactly the change that was asked for to address Oakensoul and Tri-focus back then by those who desired for these to retain their original power?
I mean... We've been really gutted over time since then, and now this... It doesn't seem to me enough to bring that playstyle back in full swing. EDIT: even more now that PvP will become more of a no-zone.

Oh... Just realized Duels have Battle Spirit, so not only Cyro, IC and BGs will be no-zone, but I'll have to auto-decline duels now.
Toss a bone to Oakensoul... I'm not saying it should be OP, but have general damage buffed for sure - a waste otherwise.

Dracane

coop500 wrote: »

Faltasë wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

Faltasë wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Please go no further than Static Reverberation for Sorc. This mostly affects specific builds who exploit this to the fullest or dummy parses. But Conservation of Energy and Font of Power already are considerably weaker than first proposed and are needed by a wide variety of Sorc builds, both in pve (tanks and healers) as well as various pvp builds.

Touching this because of a few extremes can't be good. The majority has to be considered before a fringe minority. The values are already overly harsh for most builds. (1750 magicka for 1% of spell damage)

Yeah them saying that Sorc needs a gentle nerf is really telling on how they manage combat balance. I get that parses are a good indicator of single target DPS, but they are honestly the worse way to understand how someone does in normal content. Especially when very few people can do 180k+ in general.

The Sorc does not need a nerf.

Making changes over a select few that min max something to fullest will not help balance when considering those players versus general population are on 2 entirely different levels. As well as dueling and dummy parses aren’t good metrics as they don’t account for ever changing situations like over trial and dungeon mechanics. In PvP not every encounter will be 1v1 it’s more often group versus group 1vX or Xv1. So a skill in a duel that seems strong when you account for fighting in a multiplayer situation may not be as strong when you take group heals and purges into account.

Yeah that's also true. I don't know, I feel pretty worried now that ZoS is starting to relay they may go their old route of combat balance again. Their older nerf/buff cycles based on what the min/maxers did/still do is one of the reasons I originally quit this game for a few years. Balancing this game based on *just* the one percent top performers has always been this games worst development trait.

If they continue to do that, there's no reason to even bother being excited about changes anymore, because at that point it'll just be the same old bs they've always done. I really hope the class refreshes prove me wrong, but this sort of *** is so discouraging as a Sorcerer.

I couldn't agree more, that's why I'm so scared for werewolf. I feared what would happen with it being refreshed alongside new, crazy mythics AND class masteries, it'd become a unjustified victim of nerfs when a more gentle touch is needed. Same for Sorc too.

I 100% quit over the game being balanced for the top 5% of players, and will do so again if that's where they're going again. Forum users are the loud minority, not the true population.

Have to say that I begin to see your point. It does seem like they only balance around the loudest top %, even though the majority of ESO players I see are super casual. Maybe that's why everyone just plays beam builds and heavy attack builds? Nothing else is worth the effort I reckon?

Gabriel_H

Erickson9610 wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Just give Werewolf a second bar and 5 more active abilities. Spread the power out between all 10 Werewolf Active Abilities and encourage us to bar swap.

At least then we'd have no excuse not to be comparable to a Class. And we'd finally get to do the bar swap mechanic in Cloudrest as an added bonus.

Why not instead turn werewolf and vampire into their own fully fledged class with 3 skill lines each solve several things in one shot buffing both werewolf and vampire play styles as well as satisfy the urge for new classes for game.

Ultimately, this would be for the best. Werewolf would then be worthy of having crouch/sneak animations loaded into Cyrodiil (part of the reason they aren't is because other Classes need animations for their reworks, too) and Werewolf would be on the same level as other playstyles. We'd for sure get Werewolf represented in the Vengeance, Companions, and Scribing systems, because all Classes are.

Instead, Werewolf is currently considered a "pseudo Class" (the term "subclass" now has a different meaning) at best, unworthy of the attention that the other Classes get. And don't forget about Vampire, which is currently relegated to being just a single skill line that you cherry pick skills from (like Psijic Order) because you aren't meant to use them as a cohesive kit the way you're meant to use Werewolf.

It would only be a pseudo class if you were always a werewolf though. At present you can be a beaming acranist with a form change button that gives an additional 5 skills. The question of whether that works or not is obviously a matter for debate, but that it is an additional 5 skills on demand seems to be a point that is glossed over.

dark_hunterxmg

I really they hope that they don't nerf werewolf because ONE spec with sorc mastery is doing okay in duels. Outside of that spec, Werewolf is underwhelming to me. The healing is not correct, the damage is all dot damage, movement is extra slow, roll dodge covers less distance, weapon passives still aren't a thing, and Berserker can't even maintain form when fully engaged in a fight.

Erickson9610

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Just give Werewolf a second bar and 5 more active abilities. Spread the power out between all 10 Werewolf Active Abilities and encourage us to bar swap.

At least then we'd have no excuse not to be comparable to a Class. And we'd finally get to do the bar swap mechanic in Cloudrest as an added bonus.

Why not instead turn werewolf and vampire into their own fully fledged class with 3 skill lines each solve several things in one shot buffing both werewolf and vampire play styles as well as satisfy the urge for new classes for game.

Ultimately, this would be for the best. Werewolf would then be worthy of having crouch/sneak animations loaded into Cyrodiil (part of the reason they aren't is because other Classes need animations for their reworks, too) and Werewolf would be on the same level as other playstyles. We'd for sure get Werewolf represented in the Vengeance, Companions, and Scribing systems, because all Classes are.

Instead, Werewolf is currently considered a "pseudo Class" (the term "subclass" now has a different meaning) at best, unworthy of the attention that the other Classes get. And don't forget about Vampire, which is currently relegated to being just a single skill line that you cherry pick skills from (like Psijic Order) because you aren't meant to use them as a cohesive kit the way you're meant to use Werewolf.

It would only be a pseudo class if you were always a werewolf though. At present you can be a beaming acranist with a form change button that gives an additional 5 skills. The question of whether that works or not is obviously a matter for debate, but that it is an additional 5 skills on demand seems to be a point that is glossed over.

I don't know any Werewolf player who intentionally uses both of their forms for combat. You're intended to maintain Werewolf form for as long as possible.

It just feels awkward to try to incorporate both forms into a rotation or burst. That's why Werewolf players typically build around their Werewolf form and stay in it whenever combat happens, only reverting form to mount up or place siege. Werewolf offers no benefit if you build around the human form, so at that point you might as well be a Vampire for the free passives.

You can stay transformed for hours on end in PvE and PvP, which is why I consider it to be basically a pseudo Class. I just wish you could do more things inside Werewolf form (like place siege, crouch/sneak, emote, use crafting stations, go fishing, excavate antiquities, use Skill Scrolls, mount up or run as fast as a mount, and so on) so you'd never actually need to leave Werewolf form for anything.

Wup_sa

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Wup_sa wrote: »

Why no WW nerfs so far? Its heavily (which puts it lightly) overperforming in pvp atm. Youll create worse balance than subclassing ever did if you release it like that and that is coming from someone who despises subclassing more than anything.

Pure sorcs are farming werewolves in duels on pts. But you're fine with Dragonknights insta nuking people while having more utility than ww. The bias is real because it's not your class/playstyle. Some things never change.

The interactions with class mastery passives is the issue, not werewolf itself.

Why don't i have any issues killing all classes including pure sorcs as a WW then? An avg ww build with decent understanding does 10k dps easily. Every class that is not a higher dps ww just spams heals until they run out of res, because they cant compete. Keep in mind ww is doing all this while in +40k hp and armor. And ww is missing 33% dmg even.

Wuuffyy

Wup_sa wrote: »

Why don't i have any issues killing all classes including pure sorcs as a WW then? An avg ww build with decent understanding does 10k dps easily. Every class that is not a higher dps ww just spams heals until they run out of res, because they cant compete. Keep in mind ww is doing all this while in +40k hp and armor. And ww is missing 33% dmg even.

👻counterpoint testimony👻

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/691541/ww-is-too-op-debate-from-ww-feedback-thread#latest

Yarcanine wrote: »

Werewolf’s win condition is either overwhelm your opponents healing or run them out of resources, and it looks like ZOS is giving everyone infinite sustain so that is not going to be an option for long. The DPS needs to be higher than normal because we have no way to close out a fight other than to land a fear when someone is low and hope they don't have a cleanse. Our main 200% execute scaling spamable is averaging ~4.5k Damage when you combine both hits on Pelicans build.

Also IMO the vast majority of the issue is coming from the insane sustain and large amount of healing coming from the Conservation of Energy sorc mastery. Its allowing us to run 0 sustain and do silly things like use armor pots, spam roll dodge, bash weave every ability, etc. This all heavily contributes to the power of WW and enables us to go full offensive with no drawbacks. When we disabled the masteries we started losing to sorcs and DKs, even a warden came close.

huskandhunger

Wup_sa wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Wup_sa wrote: »

Why no WW nerfs so far? Its heavily (which puts it lightly) overperforming in pvp atm. Youll create worse balance than subclassing ever did if you release it like that and that is coming from someone who despises subclassing more than anything.

Pure sorcs are farming werewolves in duels on pts. But you're fine with Dragonknights insta nuking people while having more utility than ww. The bias is real because it's not your class/playstyle. Some things never change.

The interactions with class mastery passives is the issue, not werewolf itself.

Why don't i have any issues killing all classes including pure sorcs as a WW then? An avg ww build with decent understanding does 10k dps easily. Every class that is not a higher dps ww just spams heals until they run out of res, because they cant compete. Keep in mind ww is doing all this while in +40k hp and armor. And ww is missing 33% dmg even.

Your statements reflect your personal experience with a build you and your friends kept hidden along with your add-ons, metrics, and likely set exploitation. It is not reflective of larger PVP scenarios in Cyro, IC and Battlegrounds, or the larger player base and community.

It is more representative of Sorc Class Mastery Passives over performing themselves and has nothing to do with how werewolf plays ---you don't even play werewolf on Live ever. So all of your comments have been much awoo about nothing.

You need to instead accept that your Sorc Passives will require a nerf.

IncultaWolf

Wup_sa wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Wup_sa wrote: »

Why no WW nerfs so far? Its heavily (which puts it lightly) overperforming in pvp atm. Youll create worse balance than subclassing ever did if you release it like that and that is coming from someone who despises subclassing more than anything.

Pure sorcs are farming werewolves in duels on pts. But you're fine with Dragonknights insta nuking people while having more utility than ww. The bias is real because it's not your class/playstyle. Some things never change.

The interactions with class mastery passives is the issue, not werewolf itself.

Why don't i have any issues killing all classes including pure sorcs as a WW then? An avg ww build with decent understanding does 10k dps easily. Every class that is not a higher dps ww just spams heals until they run out of res, because they cant compete. Keep in mind ww is doing all this while in +40k hp and armor. And ww is missing 33% dmg even.

Again, misinformation. It's the sorc passives that are enabling this to be possible. Not any "average" build. It's been tested multiple times by other players and streamers. You don't get anything close to those numbers by playing werewolf on other classes that aren't sorcerer or dragonknight. The easiest thing for the devs to do would just be disabling class mastery passives while in form. But we'll see Monday. If they nerf werewolf but leave some of the class passives nearly the same, it's still going to be a huge issue and everyone will just be playing sorc ww, including myself.

YandereGirlfriend

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Wup_sa wrote: »

Why don't i have any issues killing all classes including pure sorcs as a WW then? An avg ww build with decent understanding does 10k dps easily. Every class that is not a higher dps ww just spams heals until they run out of res, because they cant compete. Keep in mind ww is doing all this while in +40k hp and armor. And ww is missing 33% dmg even.

👻counterpoint testimony👻

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/691541/ww-is-too-op-debate-from-ww-feedback-thread#latest

Yarcanine wrote: »

Werewolf’s win condition is either overwhelm your opponents healing or run them out of resources, and it looks like ZOS is giving everyone infinite sustain so that is not going to be an option for long. The DPS needs to be higher than normal because we have no way to close out a fight other than to land a fear when someone is low and hope they don't have a cleanse. Our main 200% execute scaling spamable is averaging ~4.5k Damage when you combine both hits on Pelicans build.

Also IMO the vast majority of the issue is coming from the insane sustain and large amount of healing coming from the Conservation of Energy sorc mastery. Its allowing us to run 0 sustain and do silly things like use armor pots, spam roll dodge, bash weave every ability, etc. This all heavily contributes to the power of WW and enables us to go full offensive with no drawbacks. When we disabled the masteries we started losing to sorcs and DKs, even a warden came close.

Losing a duel to the two best pureclass specs (especially if the DK was abusing the questionable status of Pyrebrand...) and almost losing to a Warden isn't quite the exoneration that you might think that it is.

Unless all of those other builds were using simple one-bar builds with a comparably easy pseudo-rotation to that of a WW.

But... disabling Class Masteries while in WW form does sound like a step in the right direction. That remains the most obvious lever to pull to reign-in some of this madness.

Faltasë

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Wup_sa wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Wup_sa wrote: »

Why no WW nerfs so far? Its heavily (which puts it lightly) overperforming in pvp atm. Youll create worse balance than subclassing ever did if you release it like that and that is coming from someone who despises subclassing more than anything.

Pure sorcs are farming werewolves in duels on pts. But you're fine with Dragonknights insta nuking people while having more utility than ww. The bias is real because it's not your class/playstyle. Some things never change.

The interactions with class mastery passives is the issue, not werewolf itself.

Why don't i have any issues killing all classes including pure sorcs as a WW then? An avg ww build with decent understanding does 10k dps easily. Every class that is not a higher dps ww just spams heals until they run out of res, because they cant compete. Keep in mind ww is doing all this while in +40k hp and armor. And ww is missing 33% dmg even.

Again, misinformation. It's the sorc passives that are enabling this to be possible. Not any "average" build. It's been tested multiple times by other players and streamers. You don't get anything close to those numbers by playing werewolf on other classes that aren't sorcerer or dragonknight. The easiest thing for the devs to do would just be disabling class mastery passives while in form. But we'll see Monday. If they nerf werewolf but leave some of the class passives nearly the same, it's still going to be a huge issue and everyone will just be playing sorc ww, including myself.

I don't think nerfing Sorc passives just solely based on WW form is a good development model to follow. So we want to punish sorc non wws for the wws fault? They could just nerf that specific combo, make the passive not work with WW form, not gut the entire class mastery just FOR ww. That's stupid.

Wup_sa

huskandhunger wrote: »

Wup_sa wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Wup_sa wrote: »

Why no WW nerfs so far? Its heavily (which puts it lightly) overperforming in pvp atm. Youll create worse balance than subclassing ever did if you release it like that and that is coming from someone who despises subclassing more than anything.

Pure sorcs are farming werewolves in duels on pts. But you're fine with Dragonknights insta nuking people while having more utility than ww. The bias is real because it's not your class/playstyle. Some things never change.

The interactions with class mastery passives is the issue, not werewolf itself.

Why don't i have any issues killing all classes including pure sorcs as a WW then? An avg ww build with decent understanding does 10k dps easily. Every class that is not a higher dps ww just spams heals until they run out of res, because they cant compete. Keep in mind ww is doing all this while in +40k hp and armor. And ww is missing 33% dmg even.

Your statements reflect your personal experience with a build you and your friends kept hidden along with your add-ons, metrics, and likely set exploitation. It is not reflective of larger PVP scenarios in Cyro, IC and Battlegrounds, or the larger player base and community.

It is more representative of Sorc Class Mastery Passives over performing themselves and has nothing to do with how werewolf plays ---you don't even play werewolf on Live ever. So all of your comments have been much awoo about nothing.

You need to instead accept that your Sorc Passives will require a nerf.

First of all the build they run is tfs and rele. I run torugs and abuse infused with sp or rele. And while sorc passives are making ww much more overtuned, ww is honestly too strong on every class. The skills should not be free, which atm gives ww literally infinite sustain. I used even exoteric mythic to give 50% dmg reduction and i could stand without attacking and tank a dk corossive rotation without going below 80% hp.

I dont know how hard is it to understand that one ulti/skill line shouldn't let you be the tankiest, with best sustain and best dmg, doesn't matter which class you play. You can get even above 6k dps on necro ww.

On top of all that, you don't know how much i've played ww and thats completely irrelevant too, since ww on pts is nothing how it is on live. And i'm fine with sorc passives catching a well deserved nerf too, since sorc honestly wouldn't need more dmg, just updated skills.

Wuuffyy

Wup_sa wrote: »

huskandhunger wrote: »

Wup_sa wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Wup_sa wrote: »

Why no WW nerfs so far? Its heavily (which puts it lightly) overperforming in pvp atm. Youll create worse balance than subclassing ever did if you release it like that and that is coming from someone who despises subclassing more than anything.

Pure sorcs are farming werewolves in duels on pts. But you're fine with Dragonknights insta nuking people while having more utility than ww. The bias is real because it's not your class/playstyle. Some things never change.

The interactions with class mastery passives is the issue, not werewolf itself.

Why don't i have any issues killing all classes including pure sorcs as a WW then? An avg ww build with decent understanding does 10k dps easily. Every class that is not a higher dps ww just spams heals until they run out of res, because they cant compete. Keep in mind ww is doing all this while in +40k hp and armor. And ww is missing 33% dmg even.

Your statements reflect your personal experience with a build you and your friends kept hidden along with your add-ons, metrics, and likely set exploitation. It is not reflective of larger PVP scenarios in Cyro, IC and Battlegrounds, or the larger player base and community.

It is more representative of Sorc Class Mastery Passives over performing themselves and has nothing to do with how werewolf plays ---you don't even play werewolf on Live ever. So all of your comments have been much awoo about nothing.

You need to instead accept that your Sorc Passives will require a nerf.

First of all the build they run is tfs and rele. I run torugs and abuse infused with sp or rele. And while sorc passives are making ww much more overtuned, ww is honestly too strong on every class. The skills should not be free, which atm gives ww literally infinite sustain. I used even exoteric mythic to give 50% dmg reduction and i could stand without attacking and tank a dk corossive rotation without going below 80% hp.

I dont know how hard is it to understand that one ulti/skill line shouldn't let you be the tankiest, with best sustain and best dmg, doesn't matter which class you play. You can get even above 6k dps on necro ww.

On top of all that, you don't know how much i've played ww and thats completely irrelevant too, since ww on pts is nothing how it is on live. And i'm fine with sorc passives catching a well deserved nerf too, since sorc honestly wouldn't need more dmg, just updated skills.

I’d imagine werewolf would parse higher than pure class necro for sure. The masteries are not very powerful on necro and certainly not enough to bring it up current sorc/reworked DKs standards. We only benefit from passives after all.

Almost like we’ve been attempting to relay that werewolf has always functioned like a ~spec~ (I’m not allowed to say class I think) and since it’s reworked, it is similar in power to other reworked specs. 0.o

IncultaWolf

Faltasë wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Wup_sa wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

Wup_sa wrote: »

Why no WW nerfs so far? Its heavily (which puts it lightly) overperforming in pvp atm. Youll create worse balance than subclassing ever did if you release it like that and that is coming from someone who despises subclassing more than anything.

Pure sorcs are farming werewolves in duels on pts. But you're fine with Dragonknights insta nuking people while having more utility than ww. The bias is real because it's not your class/playstyle. Some things never change.

The interactions with class mastery passives is the issue, not werewolf itself.

Why don't i have any issues killing all classes including pure sorcs as a WW then? An avg ww build with decent understanding does 10k dps easily. Every class that is not a higher dps ww just spams heals until they run out of res, because they cant compete. Keep in mind ww is doing all this while in +40k hp and armor. And ww is missing 33% dmg even.

Again, misinformation. It's the sorc passives that are enabling this to be possible. Not any "average" build. It's been tested multiple times by other players and streamers. You don't get anything close to those numbers by playing werewolf on other classes that aren't sorcerer or dragonknight. The easiest thing for the devs to do would just be disabling class mastery passives while in form. But we'll see Monday. If they nerf werewolf but leave some of the class passives nearly the same, it's still going to be a huge issue and everyone will just be playing sorc ww, including myself.

I don't think nerfing Sorc passives just solely based on WW form is a good development model to follow. So we want to punish sorc non wws for the wws fault? They could just nerf that specific combo, make the passive not work with WW form, not gut the entire class mastery just FOR ww. That's stupid.

Yes I agree that is stupid, and follows the logic some people in this thread have. Which is why I suggested the masteries be disabled in form. You might have misread my post. A lot of comments in the pts threads are clueless about what is enabling these things to be possible and just cry nerf werewolf without doing any testing or research themselves.