U50 Feedback Thread for Combat Refresh: Werewolf

Wuuffyy · May 3

Response to @Dracane from above:

‘Duel person' (biggest advocator for 'nerf werewolf') who has testified time and time again that they are dueling with 'the best of them' on PTS, has even verified that this is the case. It is very safe to say, given that they are providing the majority of the 'duel parses', that this is the case.

This also, yet-again helps explain some of the egregious ticks for status effects and overall procs.

Yarcanine wrote:

Also I'm not sure if you're aware but the Feral Cruelty passive is bugged and is still giving the full 33% increased WD in duels. It only seems to be giving the 10% in actual Battle Spirit areas, so that is going to throw the numbers off.

Response:

hoangdz wrote: »

I am also aware of the bug.

It's not as if this is the first time that information has been withheld either. After all, Signet usage was only identified later with game syntax while analyzing their hyper-vague parses. As mentioned, this does NOT excuse other exploitable interactions but is yet again a viable reason why we should be balancing (like a scale) and not with a sledgehammer- especially regarding 'dueling parses'.

Wuuffyy · May 3

It's quite a shame honestly. With such a clear agenda you'd think that ZOS would be more willing to consider both sides of the party.

Any time I provide proof I have multiple controls and explanation of build. We're seeing time and time again how these 'dueling parses' and the individuals providing them are obfuscating data to proport the ideology that the entire werewolf kit is overperforming indiscriminately.

Dracane · May 3

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Response to @Dracane from above:

‘Duel person' (biggest advocator for 'nerf werewolf') who has testified time and time again that they are dueling with 'the best of them' on PTS, has even verified that this is the case. It is very safe to say, given that they are providing the majority of the 'duel parses', that this is the case.

This also, yet-again helps explain some of the egregious ticks for status effects and overall procs.

Yarcanine wrote:

Also I'm not sure if you're aware but the Feral Cruelty passive is bugged and is still giving the full 33% increased WD in duels. It only seems to be giving the 10% in actual Battle Spirit areas, so that is going to throw the numbers off.

Response:

hoangdz wrote: »

I am also aware of the bug.

It's not as if this is the first time that information has been withheld either. After all, Signet usage was only identified later with game syntax while analyzing their hyper-vague parses. As mentioned, this does NOT excuse other exploitable interactions but is yet again a viable reason why we should be balancing (like a scale) and not with a sledgehammer- especially regarding 'dueling parses'.

It will have to be seen. Based on the stats shown in your tooltip, the difference between 33% and 10% weapon damage would be about 12% damage done. So if it is said that Werewolf does 10k DPS, this would only drop to about 8.8k DPS, which is still far too much on a tanky build. And if I assume that the duellers have better stats than you, this 23% weapon damage difference would also be less impactful by comparison.

It should be investigated whether or not this fully applies to damage in duels. And if it does, it would be even more interesting to see those same duels re-enacted within Cyrodiil or the IC to see how it compares. This would be the most sincere process from both sides.

Radiate77 · May 3

Wait; so we nerfed Werewolf over a bug?
What did I miss?

Wuuffyy · May 3

Dracane wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Response to @Dracane from above:

‘Duel person' (biggest advocator for 'nerf werewolf') who has testified time and time again that they are dueling with 'the best of them' on PTS, has even verified that this is the case. It is very safe to say, given that they are providing the majority of the 'duel parses', that this is the case.

This also, yet-again helps explain some of the egregious ticks for status effects and overall procs.

Yarcanine wrote:

Also I'm not sure if you're aware but the Feral Cruelty passive is bugged and is still giving the full 33% increased WD in duels. It only seems to be giving the 10% in actual Battle Spirit areas, so that is going to throw the numbers off.

Response:

hoangdz wrote: »

I am also aware of the bug.

It's not as if this is the first time that information has been withheld either. After all, Signet usage was only identified later with game syntax while analyzing their hyper-vague parses. As mentioned, this does NOT excuse other exploitable interactions but is yet again a viable reason why we should be balancing (like a scale) and not with a sledgehammer- especially regarding 'dueling parses'.

It will have to be seen. Based on the stats shown in your tooltip, the difference between 33% and 10% weapon damage would be about 12% damage done. So if it is said that Werewolf does 10k DPS, this would only drop to about 8.8k DPS, which is still far too much on a tanky build. And if I assume that the duellers have better stats than you, this 23% weapon damage difference would also be less impactful by comparison.

It should be investigated whether or not this fully applies to damage in duels. And if it does, it would be even more interesting to see those same duels re-enacted within Cyrodiil or the IC to see how it compares. This would be the most sincere process from both sides.

Well see, that’s the beauty of it. This is being compounded by Signet, class masteries (optional), and high health (multiple health-based heals regardless of their individual values). Basically, multiple things not seen before added in this patch.

If you take a look at that last thread for you posted in, you’ll actually see on the 2nd comment that I have some really great suggestions on how to curb these interactions https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/691083/u50-feedback-thread-for-combat-refresh-werewolf#latest while also helping resolve some vast deficiencies in the actual kit from live.

One of the duelers said a page back or so that his fight with Pelican turns into about 6K DPS and we’ve seen via Pelican’s CMX that he is indeed at least running Signet.

I can only imagine in a real fight, and with the aforementioned bug fixed/in a ‘Battle Spirit’ zone like Cyro- this scenario safely drops to 5-6K a second with 2 or more competent fighters (duel) and you’re not as much of a threat as say, a DK, since you have a grand sum of 0 actual burst moves in your kit (and that’s with Signet equipped which should also be heavily adjusted; p.s. I have also suggested a ‘damage proc set’ battle spirit nerf by 15% while in werewolf to help blank cover any other egregious proc sets too elsewhere):

Wuuffyy · May 3

Radiate77 wrote: »

Wait; so we nerfed Werewolf over a bug?
What did I miss?

Speculative. Next week’s PTS adjustments aren’t for certain but it’s looking like yet another round of all-nerfs. If these are PvP-oriented nerfs also, it is very likely that the aforementioned info is a strong factor in this. Plus, if the value decrease is supposed to be applying ‘while under Battle Spirit’ they should make sure it continues to work correctly even while in overland content dueling, especially for testing purposes.

Radiate77 · May 3

I hope people are not deliberately hiding exploits to manipulate the development of this game.

That would be a pretty big mess.

Wuuffyy · May 3

Radiate77 wrote: »

I hope people are not deliberately hiding exploits to manipulate the development of this game.

If anything, it’s certainly poor testing/showmanship. It does make a rather unfortunate time trying to request for any positive change while the next person in line drops yet another obfuscated parse, so on and so forth.

Again, as I’ve mentioned there are legitimate issues that are exploitable and deserve to be patched, however, if we work to point this out along with in-kit deficiencies (especially from live were we have 5+ years of real testing showing that werewolf underperforms vastly in PvP), then we can hopefully see a type of balance where ‘everyone wins’.

ZhuJiuyin · May 3

I also hope this is simply due to poor text/translation preventing players from reporting the bug in a timely manner, rather than someone deliberately concealing it.

Otherwise, issuing a nerf for such an obvious bug would be utterly absurd.

Yarcanine · May 3

Both you and Pelican are WWs tho, so it’s expected that you guys max out around that value. Fight other classes and they simply do not have the healing to survive that kind of DPS. Also, Sorc is an outlier because Conservation of Energy itself is busted. Sure you guys stalemated, but does he have a chance killing you, or did he play defense the whole duel? Unless you mess up, the ball is in your hands and I do not see anyone nuking a 45-50k HP WW whose also mechanically good.

I was actually referring to fighting the sorc here. He is on some kind of disdain masters dual wield build and applies insane pressure as well, so no he was not playing super defensively. I had to use Rampage to survive, was genuinely a hard fight that caused me to do about 5-6k dps instead of the usual 9-10k.

Outside of a duel environment werewolf is not going to be this strong, the heal on rip and tear is enabling us to play very aggressively. The moment that someone is out of range of this our survivability plummets. We have to rely on a weaker mag based heal, meaning to survive in the open world we have to build and play much more defensively which lowers our damage output substantially. You are not going to see random werewolves out in the open world doing 10k dps on good players.

coop500 · May 3

Radiate77 wrote: »

Wait; so we nerfed Werewolf over a bug?
What did I miss?

Hold up, what's the bug? Currently backreading but may get glassy-eyed over all the back and forth and miss it.

coop500 · May 3

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Response to @Dracane from above:

‘Duel person' (biggest advocator for 'nerf werewolf') who has testified time and time again that they are dueling with 'the best of them' on PTS, has even verified that this is the case. It is very safe to say, given that they are providing the majority of the 'duel parses', that this is the case.

This also, yet-again helps explain some of the egregious ticks for status effects and overall procs.

Yarcanine wrote:

Also I'm not sure if you're aware but the Feral Cruelty passive is bugged and is still giving the full 33% increased WD in duels. It only seems to be giving the 10% in actual Battle Spirit areas, so that is going to throw the numbers off.

Response:

hoangdz wrote: »

I am also aware of the bug.

It's not as if this is the first time that information has been withheld either. After all, Signet usage was only identified later with game syntax while analyzing their hyper-vague parses. As mentioned, this does NOT excuse other exploitable interactions but is yet again a viable reason why we should be balancing (like a scale) and not with a sledgehammer- especially regarding 'dueling parses'.

Oh here it is.
Okay this needs to reported ASAP and heavily because holy ***, I don't think any of us were aware of this until now?

Wuuffyy · May 3

coop500 wrote: »

Oh here it is.
Okay this needs to reported ASAP and heavily because holy ***, I don't think any of us were aware of this until now?

I filed a bug report under ‘exploit’ (maybe that garners more attention than a standard ‘bug’?) via PTS soon after I tested myself so hopefully they can at least iron that out sometime before launch. I’m still of the mindset that it’s ’too late’ though

given the part of the PTS cycle we’re entering with what we already know.

coop500 · May 3

Wuuffyy wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Oh here it is.
Okay this needs to reported ASAP and heavily because holy ***, I don't think any of us were aware of this until now?

I filed a bug report under ‘exploit’ (maybe that garners more attention than a standard ‘bug’?) via PTS soon after I tested myself so hopefully they can at least iron that out sometime before launch. I’m still of the mindset that it’s ’too late’ though given the part of the PTS cycle we’re entering with what we already know.

You can post it on the bug report thread too if you want. But yeah this is actually very very disheartening to see, I knew something wasn't adding up. It didn't feel like WW is actually that powerful.

Wuuffyy · May 3

coop500 wrote: »

You can post it on the bug report thread too if you want. But yeah this is actually very very disheartening to see, I knew something wasn't adding up. It didn't feel like WW is actually that powerful.

Yerp. Just fringe interaction after fringe interaction at this point from what I’m seeing. I just hate that those ‘advocating’ for straight nerfs are always so happy to post a screenshot but never advise what is causing those CMX/parse numbers in the first place (not that they can really be taken at their word anyways, clearly). But yes, great idea- going to take my thread post and plop it in there right now.

hoangdz · May 3

@Wuuffyy ? The bug I was aware of was the missing 33% WD, which I personally tested myself. No idea why you are so worked up over that and painting me as some disingenuous person.

hoangdz · May 3

I mean if you guys are adamant that we've been "exploiting" or "intentionally hiding a bug", why don't you ask Pelican to duel without having the passive activated? If he still does 8k-9k-10k DPS then what else will you say huh?

Wuuffyy · May 3

hoangdz wrote: »

@Wuuffyy ? The bug I was aware of was the missing 33% WD, which I personally tested myself. No idea why you are so worked up over that and painting me as some disingenuous person.

I’m not ‘worked up’, I am simply preventing factual information. Read above where another forum goer and active duel tester has to say (paraphrasing on all): ‘there is an active combat bug specifically affecting duels’ for you to say ‘yeah, I already knew that’ (~I just at no point decided to disclose that information until after someone else mentioned it~).

hoangdz wrote: »

I mean if you guys are adamant that we've been "exploiting" or "intentionally hiding a bug", why don't you ask Pelican to duel without having the passive activated? If he still does 8k-9k-10k DPS then what else will you say huh?

This question/concern/etc. etc has been answered/advised/ discussed 1000 times over at this point. Re-visit the thread you posted under of mine in PTS-general, second comment- and simply see I have a list, ‘un-spoiled’ and ways to properly handle them (so they don’t affect your ‘duels’ or the general player base on launch.

~’We’ want them gone too, they simply have to be reported properly. Along with the things that are downright atrociously awful (like Hircine Rage- the actual heal, for example) in the werewolf kit itself (quick reminder: procs/mythics/etc. are not ‘the werewolf kit’ itself)

@coop500 (unrelated) but wanted to say I did also submit that post in the bug reports thread as well!

Turtle_Bot · May 3

Genuine question here, but is that weapon/spell damage bug actually affecting damage done (i.e. the numbers measured by CMX) in duels, or is it just another (extremely common) tooltip/stat sheet visual bug that only shows inflated tooltips/character stat sheets, but is not actually affecting damage output on the targets?

coop500 · May 3

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Genuine question here, but is that weapon/spell damage bug actually affecting damage done (i.e. the numbers measured by CMX) in duels, or is it just another (extremely common) tooltip/stat sheet visual bug that only shows inflated tooltips/character stat sheets, but is not actually affecting damage output on the targets?

I think that other tester said it was actively effecting output. But hell, I'll be on today if someone really wants to test.

I'm not a dueler, I am not going to parse numbers, but I will see if basic attacks under the same condition in Imperial City vs a Duel is accurate.

Wuuffyy · May 3

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Genuine question here, but is that weapon/spell damage bug actually affecting damage done (i.e. the numbers measured by CMX) in duels, or is it just another (extremely common) tooltip/stat sheet visual bug that only shows inflated tooltips/character stat sheets, but is not actually affecting damage output on the targets?

Yes, it was confirmed by people the posting the parses and those dueling ‘Pelican’ on PTS. Read above for that proof, as needed.

Is it really so strange to believe such as unique modifier would be bugged, truly? I mean, the weapon and spell damage was verifiably not applying at all originally, haha (same testers that had verified that).

hoangdz · May 3

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

@Wuuffyy ? The bug I was aware of was the missing 33% WD, which I personally tested myself. No idea why you are so worked up over that and painting me as some disingenuous person.

I’m not ‘worked up’, I am simply preventing factual information. Read above where another forum goer and active duel tester has to say (paraphrasing on all): ‘there is an active combat bug specifically affecting duels’ for you to say ‘yeah, I already knew that’ (~I just at no point decided to disclose that information until after someone else mentioned it~).

hoangdz wrote: »

I mean if you guys are adamant that we've been "exploiting" or "intentionally hiding a bug", why don't you ask Pelican to duel without having the passive activated? If he still does 8k-9k-10k DPS then what else will you say huh?

This question/concern/etc. etc has been answered/advised/ discussed 1000 times over at this point. Re-visit the thread you posted under of mine in PTS-general, second comment- and simply see I have a list, ‘un-spoiled’ and ways to properly handle them (so they don’t affect your ‘duels’ or the general player base on launch.

~’We’ want them gone too, they simply have to be reported properly. Along with the things that are downright atrociously awful (like Hircine Rage- the actual heal, for example) in the werewolf kit itself (quick reminder: procs/mythics/etc. are not ‘the werewolf kit’ itself)

@coop500 (unrelated) but wanted to say I did also submit that post in the bug reports thread as well!

I already knew that as in I knew the missing 33% wd bug from personally testing it. I have no further knowledge of any more potential bugs. Believe what you will.

Anyways, removing the passive entirely won’t change a thing, considering WW DID miss 33% WD during the first 2 weeks and Pelican achieved 7k-10k DPS. I actually brought that up multiple times over several threads. Somehow now you guys are trying so hard to make me look like the bad guy “exploiting”. Yea where were you when WW DID NOT HAVE the 33% WD during week 1 and 2? Or were you too busy ignoring that?

Wuuffyy · May 3

hoangdz wrote: »

Anyways, removing the passive entirely won’t change a thing, considering WW DID miss 33% WD during the first week and Pelican achieved 7k DPS.

Signet (nerf as overperforming everywhere and/or bar werewolf from it) and class masteries (give werewolf its own class masteries which have the same 5, pick 2 format (the 2 or so 'damage' passives should be low damage passives resulting in no more than a 4-8% increase if paired together)) existed week 1 and persist now, which can easily be resolved without nerfing werewolf (directly) itself. Other specs are also verifiably doing '8k or greater now' in PvP per multiple posters here.

It isn't perfect, there's still the health stack but my suggestion to help curb the efficiency for that is: change the health scaling modifiers for werewolf 'while under battlespirit' to wep/spell+ stam/mag scaling. (can you tell by my posts that I simply don't want to have to run broken shlep to have my werewolf be an actual improvement damage-wise over live)?

coop500 · May 3

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Genuine question here, but is that weapon/spell damage bug actually affecting damage done (i.e. the numbers measured by CMX) in duels, or is it just another (extremely common) tooltip/stat sheet visual bug that only shows inflated tooltips/character stat sheets, but is not actually affecting damage output on the targets?

Yes, it was confirmed by people the posting the parses and those dueling ‘Pelican’ on PTS. Read above *and below for that proof, as needed.

Is it really so strange to believe such as unique modifier would be bugged, truly? I mean, the weapon and spell damage was verifiably not applying at all originally, haha (same testers that had verified that).

Edit: *added 'and below'

It honestly makes sense given parses from before and after Week 3 remained roughly the same. I knew something didn't feel right. And are we really going to downplay the impact of a whooping 23% weapon damage? That's insane.

Wuuffyy · May 3

Went in overland, started a duel. Wep/spell stayed on sheet.

Went to IC, started duel against same individual- as far as light attacks go the damage number was the same.

This can still inflate stat sheets and overviews but thankfully isn't actually applying in overland dueling content (I did not check procs and/or 'Hircine's rage' i.e. self wep/spell heal... y'all can test that if you want/not).

The bug is now reported as a 'visual bug' only.

Yarcanine · May 3

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Went in overland, started a duel. Wep/spell stayed on sheet.

Went to IC, started duel against same individual- as far as light attacks go the damage number was the same.

This can still inflate stat sheets and overviews but thankfully isn't actually applying in overland dueling content (I did not check procs and/or 'Hircine's rage' i.e. self wep/spell heal... y'all can test that if you want/not).

The bug is now reported as a 'visual bug' only.

Interesting, so its only visual. Something still feels off. Werewolf status effects seem to be hitting way harder than other builds.

coop500 · May 3

Yarcanine wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Went in overland, started a duel. Wep/spell stayed on sheet.

Went to IC, started duel against same individual- as far as light attacks go the damage number was the same.

This can still inflate stat sheets and overviews but thankfully isn't actually applying in overland dueling content (I did not check procs and/or 'Hircine's rage' i.e. self wep/spell heal... y'all can test that if you want/not).

The bug is now reported as a 'visual bug' only.

Interesting, so its only visual. Something still feels off. Werewolf status effects seem to be hitting way harder than other builds.

It's because of the Signet Paths mythic ring, it needs to be disabled for WW, it has an unhealthy interaction, just like how warden bear was excluded from it.

Dracane · May 3

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Went in overland, started a duel. Wep/spell stayed on sheet.

Went to IC, started duel against same individual- as far as light attacks go the damage number was the same.

This can still inflate stat sheets and overviews but thankfully isn't actually applying in overland dueling content (I did not check procs and/or 'Hircine's rage' i.e. self wep/spell heal... y'all can test that if you want/not).

The bug is now reported as a 'visual bug' only.

Glad my suspicions weren't mere paranoia. Thank you for verifying it.

Wuuffyy · May 3

Yarcanine wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Went in overland, started a duel. Wep/spell stayed on sheet.

Went to IC, started duel against same individual- as far as light attacks go the damage number was the same.

This can still inflate stat sheets and overviews but thankfully isn't actually applying in overland dueling content (I did not check procs and/or 'Hircine's rage' i.e. self wep/spell heal... y'all can test that if you want/not).

The bug is now reported as a 'visual bug' only.

Interesting, so its only visual. Something still feels off. Werewolf status effects seem to be hitting way harder than other builds.

Well, again- that's not a bug just a very short-sighted interaction with Signet.

Nothing has changed there and we have indeed verified that. It's just the perfect storm of buffs+debuffs, a guaranteed status effect on the spammable (plus a 'chance' for the other status effect on spammable), increased chances throughout kit, and a 'weird' ult mechanic (werewolf ult mechanic) where ult can be sustained over its ~170 requirement (for max efficiency) while not actually losing 'an ult' (because a constant 1v1 makes ult gen much easier and because werewolf is built around never dropping an >>>actual<<< ult).

In addition, werewolf has a LOT of major/minors that lean themselves with status effects (normal wep/spell scaling; actual kit damage is irrelevant for those). Essentially, Signet and this are amping these to hit for '3k' on spikes versus players per 'top end duelers'.

Signet 100% should either be reduced across the board and/or disabled for werewolf. It will only serve to worsen any potential nerfs later if it goes live. It's already playing a hand in PvE-focused nerfs (adjustment for standard wep/spell passive for wolf).

Yarcanine · May 3

Im aware of how the signet works, im saying even compared to other builds running the signet ring and warden passive that gives 1665 WD. More testing is required