Possible solution to fake roles in the dungeon finder

frogthroat

I have mentioned this in other discussions but for visibility here's my idea to alleviate the fake roles in the dungeon finder.

A checkbox for "ignore group composition."

By default it would be off. The system would prioritise those groups where at least one person has that checkbox off and would attempt to fill those groups with real roles first. So by default it would work just like now.

However, if you do check that checkbox before queuing, and if there are not enough players queuing with correct roles, it would fill the group with whoever is in the queue and has that checkbox checked, regardless of what they have selected as their role.

When checked, it could mean you are placed in a traditional group if your selected role is missing from the group, but it could also be that you are placed in a group with 3 other DDs, or your group could be 1h 3dd. Theoretically you could end up in a 4 tanks group, but that is highly unlikely.

Since the issue is mainly that DDs have an extremely long queue time, DDs could select the ignore option and do their daily random dungeon with 4dd composition fast, instead of queuing as a fake tank.

This way those who want the traditional 1t 1h 2dd composition would have less chance to come across with fake tanks, and those who don't care could get through the queue much faster without having to resort to fake roles.

It's a win-win.

FeltyTulip

That is some idea....

But how do you control it? How do you make sure that a tank role is an actual tank? or a healer role is filled with an actual healer?
should the system check your character for skills? so you only can choose the tank role for classic group setup, when you have an taunt ability slotted? or as a heal at least two healing abilities? or check the cp slotted?
so if you waiting for a group to build and you think its too long, you also can work around it by slotting a taunt as a dd and dont use it in the dungeon...

also, in most dungeons in veteran mode you do not need a healer anymore, cause you do a ton of damage, and do not receive a lot damage so a heal would be necessary. perhaps some of the recent dlc dungeons aquire a real heal or a decent tank.
Last time i ran a random vet, i ended up in Bal Sunnar. In a classic group setup. a real good tank, i was arcanist dd and another arcanist dd and a healer. we did HM. but the healer was so bad, just casting an ability like every 5 to 10 seconds. at the endboss the heal left the group. but we did hm anyways. so if you know how to play your dd and know the mechanics and what to focus on, most dungeons are doable even with fake whatsoever roles

I don't think that this checkbox will change anything

scrappy1342

FeltyTulip wrote: »

That is some idea....

But how do you control it? How do you make sure that a tank role is an actual tank? or a healer role is filled with an actual healer?
should the system check your character for skills?

yes, it should check. but it doesn't so this is the current situation. if ppl have the option to have a random group of 4 dps or 3 dps/1 healer, then there is no need for them to queue as fake tank/healer. so it should cut back on that. this is done in other games and works, so i don't see why it wouldn't work the same way here.

but first.... they need to fix the group finder/queue system. because it's been broken pretty much the entirety of the game. the current healer queue bug in particular would not help this at all

Orbital78

FeltyTulip wrote: »

also, in most dungeons in veteran mode you do not need a healer anymore, cause you do a ton of damage, and do not receive a lot damage so a heal would be necessary. perhaps some of the recent dlc dungeons aquire a real heal or a decent tank.
Last time i ran a random vet, i ended up in Bal Sunnar. In a classic group setup. a real good tank, i was arcanist dd and another arcanist dd and a healer. we did HM. but the healer was so bad, just casting an ability like every 5 to 10 seconds. at the endboss the heal left the group. but we did hm anyways. so if you know how to play your dd and know the mechanics and what to focus on, most dungeons are doable even with fake whatsoever roles

I don't think that this checkbox will change anything

Yes, I usually run a hybrid healer/dps in specific queue dlc dungeons, works fine most of the time. If the group has a new tank or one without enough survival that can be an issue.

I don't see the need to change the way things work now, we just need more incentive to actually play tanks besides the quicker specific queues. Random vets as a dps pop for me rather quickly usually, but you tend to end up getting a dungeon that you have ran 1000 times.

In normals the issue is that roles really do not much matter. It helps if someone taunts, but besides a few of the most recent DLC's an experienced dps can tank fairly well with some shields or healing.

frogthroat

FeltyTulip wrote: »

But how do you control it? How do you make sure that a tank role is an actual tank? or a healer role is filled with an actual healer?

You wouldn't need to. It would increase the likelihood of people queuing with correct roles, because being a DD doesn't necessarily mean an hour wait time if you are willing to do the dungeon with 3 other DDs. Which, essentially, is what fake tanks do anyway.

FeltyTulip wrote: »

should the system check your character for skills? so you only can choose the tank role for classic group setup, when you have an taunt ability slotted? or as a heal at least two healing abilities? or check the cp slotted?
so if you waiting for a group to build and you think its too long, you also can work around it by slotting a taunt as a dd and dont use it in the dungeon...

No, this idea would increase the likelihood of people using correct roles without any checks.

If you are a DD and have the option of queuing as DD and wait for an hour, queue as a fake tank and people disliking your choice and kicking you out, or queuing as a DD with the "ignore group composition" checked and end up in a group with 3 other DDs who all have agreed to ignore group composition, which one would you choose? I would choose the option 3.

FeltyTulip wrote: »

also, in most dungeons in veteran mode you do not need a healer anymore, cause you do a ton of damage, and do not receive a lot damage so a heal would be necessary. perhaps some of the recent dlc dungeons aquire a real heal or a decent tank.
Last time i ran a random vet, i ended up in Bal Sunnar. In a classic group setup. a real good tank, i was arcanist dd and another arcanist dd and a healer. we did HM. but the healer was so bad, just casting an ability like every 5 to 10 seconds. at the endboss the heal left the group. but we did hm anyways. so if you know how to play your dd and know the mechanics and what to focus on, most dungeons are doable even with fake whatsoever roles

This is exactly where you would have benefitted from this checkbox. After the healer left, look for someone else and if everyone has the "ignore group composition" checked, you could have gotten another healer or more likely some DD eager to get in.

FeltyTulip wrote: »

I don't think that this checkbox will change anything

No system is fool proof, but I think this would increase the chances.

alpha_synuclein

Ooooor, make the amount of transmutes rewarded rise along with the difficulty of the dungeon, effectively moving vet players to the content they belong in?

Soarora

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

Ooooor, make the amount of transmutes rewarded rise along with the difficulty of the dungeon, effectively moving vet players to the content they belong in?

WTB THE DLC HM TRANSMUTE CRYSTAL BEING FIXED BECAUSE DLC HM PLEDGE GIVES LESS TRANSMUTE THAN DOING A SINGULAR NON DLC HM!!!!!

At this point the yelling is justified. It’s unacceptable how long it’s been broken for.

James-Wayne

From my personal experience 4 tanks will produce more DPS then 1T 3DD but cool idea I'm just not convinced it will achieve desired outcome

bmnoble

Rather than ignore group composition just make the extra queue option 4 damage dealers only, to prevent the unlikely event of getting multiple healers or tanks in a single group, ensuring supports are in the main queue for groups that need or want them.

noblecron

I think one thing that would help is shorten the queue times. A lot of folk fake tank, fake heal to begin with becuase the wait time for dps can go up to 30 minutes. If zos could find a way to shorten that, that would be a big improvement. Maybe also a gear check, skill check for a certain role as well . As in you can't tank queue as tank unless you have a taunt on your bars

mattaeus01b16_ESO

I play many other MMOs... and its always the same it seems.
KILL EVERYTHING, RUN TO THE END, WIN...
Well, except ESO. Where its kill nothing, pull the group into the boss and maybe win if it actually has mechs you need to follow (Few and far in-between now a days)

I use to pug everything up till about 3 months ago where I then just stopped.
Got really tired of it. People in white gear. Nothing matching, No one healing. No one tanking.
I did not Q so that I could run a group threw a dungeon while doing every roll just so they could be satisfied in their decision to do bare minimum.

And I'm not talking about the 0 CP people.. I'm talking about to 2000cp people.

11 years playing this game. 3 years of in time gaming, and Iv never seen it so bad with people that just expect.. Thats it... just expect.

1. Making tanks viable by making them tank.
-Increase the taunts to passively inflict taunt on nearby mobs.
-Change how magic physical and magic attacks affect defense making it more punishing for DPS/Heals to solo tank dungeons. Especially if they are wearing literal trash.

2. Make mechs that need to be followed. NOT just to slow down people from killing the bosses (Everythings immune to damage! Run around for 5 mins till we can kill it) But mechs that matter.

3. Healing just sucks in this game sometimes. Specially with the slower ticks of health coming at you. But only if YOU STAND IN STUPID. More damage done by mobs = more chance of a healer being able to mitigate damage. Not just heal through it. The skills for most of the classes just seem to be a cluster of almost good abilities. But nothing really outstanding to bypass AOE stacking/direct heals. (we use to have fun stuff to play with. But then the PvP nerfs came in because of over abuse of skills)

4. Most toxic mech in the game is auto pull to boss. I said it, im not taking it back, I 115% believe this. It encourages speed running with out consent. Skipping mechs and mobs and loot (if people are in to that) and for new players. It either shows them a way to cheese the game or enrage them because, well, skip skip skip done... No loot, no exp (but who cares about that when you get a HUGE chunk for your first daily per toon) Hell! They didnt even get to pick up the quest. Fix it... how?
-Get rid of RP wait times on NPCs to pick up a quest OR just auto quest the player when they walk in.
-When you join a group in a dungeon, drop them behind a wall/cage/barrier that persists for 15sec MINIMUM. So that all that are entering the dungeon can actually load in and accept a quest if they need to. No more "Why am I being pulled into a boss fight when I just loaded into the dungeon?"
-Put restrictions on entering boss fights. I dont know, like maybe kill the mobs to trigger the door to open? Or certain mobs? Then, pull away all you want.
- Add a solo version for people to explore. Or to even do the quest in.

At the end of the day, people will still speed run these though because of the huge exp pop they get. I have 12 toons lined up, all with crap loot I found on a goblin, exp scrolls at the ready and they are all set to tank randoms with a bow and 15k health.

But I mean, whatever. I dont even touch randoms anymore.

Necrotech_Master

having a check that allows bypassing the hard role selection would be OK for normal dungeons, most any dungeon with 4 players can usually clear if everyone is competent

i personally just dont do randoms, mostly because i hate the speedrunners, ill do randoms in a preformed group but never go into the queue by myself usually

frogthroat

noblecron wrote: »

Maybe also a gear check, skill check for a certain role as well . As in you can't tank queue as tank unless you have a taunt on your bars

We have armory assistants, Wizards Wardrobe addon and we can manually swap gear/skills.

Unless the game locks your setup, you can queue with s&b and Pierce Armor on your skill bar, and once in the dungeon swap the shield to another dagger and Pierce Armor back to Camo Hunter. And if the game would lock your setup, that would destroy a huge part of optimisation where you would make a specific setup for a specific encounter. (If you want to see an extreme example of optimisation with different setups, just watch pretty much any of Lucht's solo trifectas. He changes setups even between trash packs.)

Force won't work. Queuing with your actual role needs to be made attractive.

Stick makes player play other game. Carrot makes player play this game.

Arcturus

Can we please just learn to make our own groups instead of dragging this conversation out for the thousandth time?

Seriously, if you don’t like how randoms play, then maybe don’t queue with randoms. Wild concept, I know. I promise you, those same randoms probably aren’t thrilled when a real healer decides they’re some rare, precious commodity in a game this easy and then takes three geological eras to finish a dungeon because they’re listening to every line of dialogue.

At the end of the day, for most content, even some veteran stuff, you barely need anything besides DPS to blast through it.

The bar is on the floor.

Vaqual

Absolute banger idea.

Major_Mangle

Arcturus wrote: »

Can we please just learn to make our own groups instead of dragging this conversation out for the thousandth time?

Seriously, if you don’t like how randoms play, then maybe don’t queue with randoms. Wild concept, I know. I promise you, those same randoms probably aren’t thrilled when a real healer decides they’re some rare, precious commodity in a game this easy and then takes three geological eras to finish a dungeon because they’re listening to every line of dialogue.

At the end of the day, for most content, even some veteran stuff, you barely need anything besides DPS to blast through it.

The bar is on the floor.

But that would mean you've to interact and communicate/talk to people (crazy having to interact with others in an MMO right..), which apparently is way out of the average ESO player's comfort zone....

alpha_synuclein

Soarora wrote: »

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

Ooooor, make the amount of transmutes rewarded rise along with the difficulty of the dungeon, effectively moving vet players to the content they belong in?

WTB THE DLC HM TRANSMUTE CRYSTAL BEING FIXED BECAUSE DLC HM PLEDGE GIVES LESS TRANSMUTE THAN DOING A SINGULAR NON DLC HM!!!!!

At this point the yelling is justified. It’s unacceptable how long it’s been broken for.

INDEED!

Last'One

frogthroat wrote: »

I have mentioned this in other discussions but for visibility here's my idea to alleviate the fake roles in the dungeon finder.

A checkbox for "ignore group composition."

By default it would be off. The system would prioritise those groups where at least one person has that checkbox off and would attempt to fill those groups with real roles first. So by default it would work just like now.

However, if you do check that checkbox before queuing, and if there are not enough players queuing with correct roles, it would fill the group with whoever is in the queue and has that checkbox checked, regardless of what they have selected as their role.

When checked, it could mean you are placed in a traditional group if your selected role is missing from the group, but it could also be that you are placed in a group with 3 other DDs, or your group could be 1h 3dd. Theoretically you could end up in a 4 tanks group, but that is highly unlikely.

Since the issue is mainly that DDs have an extremely long queue time, DDs could select the ignore option and do their daily random dungeon with 4dd composition fast, instead of queuing as a fake tank.

This way those who want the traditional 1t 1h 2dd composition would have less chance to come across with fake tanks, and those who don't care could get through the queue much faster without having to resort to fake roles.

It's a win-win.

I ask this: "Why shouldn’t I fake my role?"

If I queue as a tank or healer, it’s much faster. For normal dungeons, we don’t even need a tank or a healer.
For veteran dungeons(some), I agree that fake tanks are a problem, but healers? We don’t really need them either.

For veteran DLC HM, it’s simple: kick anyone who is faking their role. But then… why should we queue for random DLC vet dungeons? Just why??

So once again… why shouldn’t I fake my role?

Note:

We can even look at the subclassing example. Subclassing only makes class balance even worse. It’s a mess, and ZOS knows this and seems to be working on fixing balance.

But the point is: if ZOS knows balance is a mess and still keeps things the way they are, doesn’t that mean ZOS mainly cares about players continuing to play the game? It seems like balance doesn’t really matter. As long as people are playing, everything is considered fine.

In that sense, fake roles fit perfectly into that vision. No?

twisttop138

Last'One wrote: »

frogthroat wrote: »

I have mentioned this in other discussions but for visibility here's my idea to alleviate the fake roles in the dungeon finder.

A checkbox for "ignore group composition."

By default it would be off. The system would prioritise those groups where at least one person has that checkbox off and would attempt to fill those groups with real roles first. So by default it would work just like now.

However, if you do check that checkbox before queuing, and if there are not enough players queuing with correct roles, it would fill the group with whoever is in the queue and has that checkbox checked, regardless of what they have selected as their role.

When checked, it could mean you are placed in a traditional group if your selected role is missing from the group, but it could also be that you are placed in a group with 3 other DDs, or your group could be 1h 3dd. Theoretically you could end up in a 4 tanks group, but that is highly unlikely.

Since the issue is mainly that DDs have an extremely long queue time, DDs could select the ignore option and do their daily random dungeon with 4dd composition fast, instead of queuing as a fake tank.

This way those who want the traditional 1t 1h 2dd composition would have less chance to come across with fake tanks, and those who don't care could get through the queue much faster without having to resort to fake roles.

It's a win-win.

I ask this: "Why shouldn’t I fake my role?"

If I queue as a tank or healer, it’s much faster. For normal dungeons, we don’t even need a tank or a healer.
For veteran dungeons(some), I agree that fake tanks are a problem, but healers? We don’t really need them either.

For veteran DLC HM, it’s simple: kick anyone who is faking their role. But then… why should we queue for random DLC vet dungeons? Just why??

So once again… why shouldn’t I fake my role?

Note:

We can even look at the subclassing example. Subclassing only makes class balance even worse. It’s a mess, and ZOS knows this and seems to be working on fixing balance.

But the point is: if ZOS knows balance is a mess and still keeps things the way they are, doesn’t that mean ZOS mainly cares about players continuing to play the game? It seems like balance doesn’t really matter. As long as people are playing, everything is considered fine.

In that sense, fake roles fit perfectly into that vision. No?

Wait we're talking about this issue for anything other than vet DLC and above?

Nemesis7884

I run dungeons for pledges daily in all kind of roles, and hardly ever have these issues so i dont understand the problem tbh...

DestroyerPewnack

It's a great idea, on paper, but the problem with creating separate queues is that it makes the issue of low population become even more apparent.
Battlegrounds used to have separate queues for every game mode, back in the day. They changed that to a random queue and a random solo queue, because it just ended up taking forever to get in otherwise.

My issue with these threads is that they are so unnecessary. Fake roles are not that big of a problem, and the game already gives you so many tools to avoid them. Group finder. Guilds that can have up to 500 players. The ability to be in 5 separate guilds. Heck, even zone chat. Why is this such a big issue for you?

Vaqual

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

It's a great idea, on paper, but the problem with creating separate queues is that it makes the issue of low population become even more apparent.
Battlegrounds used to have separate queues for every game mode, back in the day. They changed that to a random queue and a random solo queue, because it just ended up taking forever to get in otherwise.

My issue with these threads is that they are so unnecessary. Fake roles are not that big of a problem, and the game already gives you so many tools to avoid them. Group finder. Guilds that can have up to 500 players. The ability to be in 5 separate guilds. Heck, even zone chat. Why is this such a big issue for you?

That is the beauty of the idea, a queue without bad consciences, without nagging and without any need for justifying how "role appropriate" a build is. Full absolution via checkbox.

The people who insist on T/H/2DD for Random Normals can enjoy their 50 min queue, clearing every add with brain dead DPS, and the rest can move on and just play the game in the "let me play the game" - queue.

This idea is much more in favour of sane people than you think.

mattaeus01b16_ESO

Arcturus wrote: »

Can we please just learn to make our own groups instead of dragging this conversation out for the thousandth time?

Seriously, if you don’t like how randoms play, then maybe don’t queue with randoms. Wild concept, I know. I promise you, those same randoms probably aren’t thrilled when a real healer decides they’re some rare, precious commodity in a game this easy and then takes three geological eras to finish a dungeon because they’re listening to every line of dialogue.

At the end of the day, for most content, even some veteran stuff, you barely need anything besides DPS to blast through it.

The bar is on the floor.

Seriously, can we stop with the making of your own groups? Maybe new players see that there is a random dungeon finder and click it and get tossed into a toxic group of people that have no clue what they are doing or even care? Thats the new players first experience.

Randoms are not there to power level people who cant even muster the strength to put a pull set of gear on. Same as BGs! Do you know how many people in BGs I see that have nothing but quest trash on and white gear? They didnt even open the box that had the set of training gear it it.

RAMDOMS are part of the game and they incentivize it by putting a huge exp push... While giving nothing for the actual mobs.
And this experience is toxic 40% of the time in my exp. Why stop yelling about it?

Heres a thing. In the game, you can type! And communicate with other people. BUT a lot of these people chose to not do that because its to hard? They could say "Is it okay to speed run?" "Does anyone need the quest?" "Anyone collecting gear?".

And again. I dont Q for 20 mins as a DPS to not only pull the DPS pool, but to tank and to heal as well, for a group of people who give literally ZERO ***** about anything, except what they want?

Ermiq

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

My issue with these threads is that they are so unnecessary. Fake roles are not that big of a problem, and the game already gives you so many tools to avoid them. Group finder. Guilds that can have up to 500 players. The ability to be in 5 separate guilds. Heck, even zone chat. Why is this such a big issue for you?

What if I don't want to play 3 roles at once? Quite often I end up being a number 1 target for the boss when the others decide that their time is more important than mine and they can't wait in the queue.
When there's no real tank, bosses aim at the healer and I, as a Warden DD, still have lots of heals naturally even if I don't heal intentionally, so the bosses focus on me, and I end up being both tank and healer. And I waited 20 mins in the queue for that?

SneaK

The answer is Vengeance PvE, you have to have selected the tank loadout to queue as a tank etc., AND it fixes all performance.

Erickson9610

This would be a great idea for reducing queue times. I'd like to see this be implemented.

frogthroat

Last'One wrote: »

frogthroat wrote: »

I have mentioned this in other discussions but for visibility here's my idea to alleviate the fake roles in the dungeon finder.

A checkbox for "ignore group composition."

By default it would be off. The system would prioritise those groups where at least one person has that checkbox off and would attempt to fill those groups with real roles first. So by default it would work just like now.

However, if you do check that checkbox before queuing, and if there are not enough players queuing with correct roles, it would fill the group with whoever is in the queue and has that checkbox checked, regardless of what they have selected as their role.

When checked, it could mean you are placed in a traditional group if your selected role is missing from the group, but it could also be that you are placed in a group with 3 other DDs, or your group could be 1h 3dd. Theoretically you could end up in a 4 tanks group, but that is highly unlikely.

Since the issue is mainly that DDs have an extremely long queue time, DDs could select the ignore option and do their daily random dungeon with 4dd composition fast, instead of queuing as a fake tank.

This way those who want the traditional 1t 1h 2dd composition would have less chance to come across with fake tanks, and those who don't care could get through the queue much faster without having to resort to fake roles.

It's a win-win.

I ask this: "Why shouldn’t I fake my role?"

If I queue as a tank or healer, it’s much faster. For normal dungeons, we don’t even need a tank or a healer.
For veteran dungeons(some), I agree that fake tanks are a problem, but healers? We don’t really need them either.

For veteran DLC HM, it’s simple: kick anyone who is faking their role. But then… why should we queue for random DLC vet dungeons? Just why??

So once again… why shouldn’t I fake my role?

Note:

We can even look at the subclassing example. Subclassing only makes class balance even worse. It’s a mess, and ZOS knows this and seems to be working on fixing balance.

But the point is: if ZOS knows balance is a mess and still keeps things the way they are, doesn’t that mean ZOS mainly cares about players continuing to play the game? It seems like balance doesn’t really matter. As long as people are playing, everything is considered fine.

In that sense, fake roles fit perfectly into that vision. No?

You are not the only player. This is a multiplayer game. Massively so. Some people prefer to have real roles, others don't care.

If you had the option to ignore the roles when queuing, why would you use a fake role and ruin the experience for those who prefer to have a traditional composition? What I am suggesting would make it more likely that those who prefer to have a traditional composition are less likely to see fake tanks, and those who don't care can queue as their actual role and still get through the queue faster.

Without forcing. Without any equipment or skill checks. If this would become a function, you could still fake tank but that would be only because you want to ruin it for others and for no other reason.

So:

• if this function would be implemented, you could get through the queue fast even as a DD and you would know that if you are placed in a 4 DD group all of you would have agreed to that and most likely are capable of finishing a dungeon with 4 DDs.
• And if you would fake your role, it would take the same time, but now the rest of the team is expecting a real role so you would not benefit anything, and others did not agree to what you are doing.

Would you still fake your role?

frogthroat

Vaqual wrote: »

The people who insist on T/H/2DD for Random Normals can enjoy their 50 min queue, clearing every add with brain dead DPS, and the rest can move on and just play the game in the "let me play the game" - queue.

Well, close, but with my idea everyone would still be in the same pool waiting for grouping. It would be just that those who have chosen the option to ignore group composition would not have to wait for correct roles to fill. You could still program that it prioritises classic group composition, but when that is not available, ignore it.

For example, if in the queue are:
2 tanks, one with the checkbox
5 healers, 2 with the checkbox
50 DDs, 32 with the checkbox

It would still create 2 groups of 1t 1h 2dd, 2 groups of 1h 3dd, and 6 groups of 4dd.

The remaining
1 healer with no checkbox
16 DDs, with 1-2 with the checkbox
would have to wait for more people to join the queue.

As opposed to currently:
3 healers
46 DDs
will have to wait for tanks to join.

And even those DDs who have not selected the checkbox would benefit because the ones who have it selected get grouped faster so when a tank finally joins the pool, you are higher on the list than you would have been if every DD waits for a tank.