Decreasing Vampirism Stage!? (after update 26 - quite frankly unreasonable)

ShutUpitsRed

People are gonna complain the game requires them to push buttons any day now....

joshisanonymous

Erickson9610 wrote: »

joshisanonymous wrote: »

Also, if all this is inconvenient, just don't be a vampire. Being a vampire should come with cons. This is one of them.

It being a curse doesn't justify poor game design.

If anything, the quickest solution would be to make Mesmerize be automatically unlocked without the need for a skill point; just swap its position with Eviscerate and refund the skill point to anyone who already has it, the way you don't need to spend a skill point on the base morph of Werewolf Transformation. That way you will always have access to a way to mitigate the effects of Stage 4.

It's barely inconvenient. Again, 66g for a potion, or visit a fountain, or wait all of 4 hours, or spend a day leveling vampirism to get mesmerize, or don't play at stage 4. There are numerous solutions that already make it a very minor inconvenience. If that's not good enough, then I suggest not playing RPGs, because your suggestion is basically just getting rid of a very typical aspect of RPGs: progression and choices.

Erickson9610

joshisanonymous wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

joshisanonymous wrote: »

Also, if all this is inconvenient, just don't be a vampire. Being a vampire should come with cons. This is one of them.

It being a curse doesn't justify poor game design.

If anything, the quickest solution would be to make Mesmerize be automatically unlocked without the need for a skill point; just swap its position with Eviscerate and refund the skill point to anyone who already has it, the way you don't need to spend a skill point on the base morph of Werewolf Transformation. That way you will always have access to a way to mitigate the effects of Stage 4.

It's barely inconvenient. Again, 66g for a potion, or visit a fountain, or wait all of 4 hours, or spend a day leveling vampirism to get mesmerize, or don't play at stage 4. There are numerous solutions that already make it a very minor inconvenience. If that's not good enough, then I suggest not playing RPGs, because your suggestion is basically just getting rid of a very typical aspect of RPGs: progression and choices.

My suggestion does not get rid of progression or choices. A player can still choose to use any of those methods — my suggestion just increases quality of life because it ensures there is always at least one immediate solution to the problem.

There are other downsides to Vampire. Inconvenience shouldn't be one of them, because that just makes the game feel worse.

MincMincMinc

Remember all the vamp threads back in the day where all people complained about was how there was no crown store normal skin or different vamp stage skins?

Then people would argue how its unfair to be able to hide their vampirism for an unfair advantage in pvp

Then other people would argue that that logic was dumb because you can just slot a helmet that covers your character completely anyways.

Then someone else without reading the thread brings up how it would be an unfair advantage to hide their vamparism in pvp.....and the cycle would continue

Good times

wolfie1.0.

Erickson9610 wrote: »

joshisanonymous wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

joshisanonymous wrote: »

Also, if all this is inconvenient, just don't be a vampire. Being a vampire should come with cons. This is one of them.

It being a curse doesn't justify poor game design.

If anything, the quickest solution would be to make Mesmerize be automatically unlocked without the need for a skill point; just swap its position with Eviscerate and refund the skill point to anyone who already has it, the way you don't need to spend a skill point on the base morph of Werewolf Transformation. That way you will always have access to a way to mitigate the effects of Stage 4.

It's barely inconvenient. Again, 66g for a potion, or visit a fountain, or wait all of 4 hours, or spend a day leveling vampirism to get mesmerize, or don't play at stage 4. There are numerous solutions that already make it a very minor inconvenience. If that's not good enough, then I suggest not playing RPGs, because your suggestion is basically just getting rid of a very typical aspect of RPGs: progression and choices.

My suggestion does not get rid of progression or choices. A player can still choose to use any of those methods — my suggestion just increases quality of life because it ensures there is always at least one immediate solution to the problem.

There are other downsides to Vampire. Inconvenience shouldn't be one of them, because that just makes the game feel worse.

Yet you seem to ignore the suggestion that both spartaxoxo an myself made. Which is 100% free. I have just done it one a brand new account and new character. Its easier than some quests.

Erickson9610

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

joshisanonymous wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

joshisanonymous wrote: »

Also, if all this is inconvenient, just don't be a vampire. Being a vampire should come with cons. This is one of them.

It being a curse doesn't justify poor game design.

If anything, the quickest solution would be to make Mesmerize be automatically unlocked without the need for a skill point; just swap its position with Eviscerate and refund the skill point to anyone who already has it, the way you don't need to spend a skill point on the base morph of Werewolf Transformation. That way you will always have access to a way to mitigate the effects of Stage 4.

It's barely inconvenient. Again, 66g for a potion, or visit a fountain, or wait all of 4 hours, or spend a day leveling vampirism to get mesmerize, or don't play at stage 4. There are numerous solutions that already make it a very minor inconvenience. If that's not good enough, then I suggest not playing RPGs, because your suggestion is basically just getting rid of a very typical aspect of RPGs: progression and choices.

My suggestion does not get rid of progression or choices. A player can still choose to use any of those methods — my suggestion just increases quality of life because it ensures there is always at least one immediate solution to the problem.

There are other downsides to Vampire. Inconvenience shouldn't be one of them, because that just makes the game feel worse.

Yet you seem to ignore the suggestion that both spartaxoxo an myself made. Which is 100% free. I have just done it one a brand new account and new character. Its easier than some quests.

I agree that the Armory is a decent solution to the problem, provided you have a build to remove Vampirism and a build to restore it. The only inconvenience there is that you are using up build slots for this and you must either travel to an Armory station or use an Armory assistant, the latter of which costs Crowns.


I was initially responding to the point of "curses should have downsides" because I don't believe that's a good enough justification for ZOS to not make the experience better.

It's like how several patches ago, Werewolf was given the Devour passive for free, since trying to maintain form while training your Werewolf skill line with no passives was incredibly frustrating, as you would quickly lose form with no way to add extra time.

In the case of Vampire, they should be given Mesmerize for free. As stated in the OP, there are several ways to get "stuck" at Stage 4 without the ability to interact with merchants. At least with Werewolf, you can manually revert form to speak with merchants again.

DenverRalphy

What's actually wrong with the vampirism mechanic is that over time the benefits from the curse became so negligible due to the evolution of all other skills and power creep, that they're simply just not worth the downsides anymore.

The only reason I still have a toon with vampirism is for its Thief build to provide removal of speed reduction while stealthed. And even then because that same toon has 3 other vampire free builds negating any stage reduction concerns. Heck, I don't even advance the stages anymore anyway.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

What is with people wanting Vampires to have dozens of weaknesses?

We are Vampires of the oldest and most powerful bloodline in the entire series and received a full-blood transfusion from the OG Vampire herself, if anything we should not have any weaknesses whatsoever, we are closer to being Vampire Gods then regular Vampires so again why do you want weaknesses when weaknesses are for the weak.

If you wish to play as a lesser vampire then do not take the ultimate or any of the passives, now feeding will make you weaker as you will not gain anything in return.

wolfie1.0.

Werewolf IS harder to level than vampire by default. To level vampire skill line you become a vampire, then you just play as normal. You dont even need to invest in the skill line. You dont need to feed or do quests or get achievements or use the skills or even have the skills equipped (though that speeds it up). You just need to gain exp. Which means exp boosts impact it as well.

The only reasons to feed are to: have fun, increase stage, steal from npcs bodies.

With werewolf you have to sacrifice an ultimate slot, transform and get credit for kills while in the form. It can go fast if you have a good build, but it's harder than vampire on a new account, especially without gear and cp. And devour was added in 2018 because it was such a chore to maintain Werewolf to level it, so you cant really compare the two as the leveling experiences are on different metrics.

With the solutions given in this thread and several of them free or very low cost. There is nothing wrong with the set up as is.

As for moving Mesmerize and making it free. We'll first its an active skill and one thats not useful at lower levels or to new players. Damage skills are better when starting out. Also, lore wise it makes sense that a low level vampire wouldnt be able to use the skill, and again you can gain access to it by simply gaining experience.

And if you do get stuck. Often just asking in zone for help will get you out of your bind. Either a home to port to, or a purifying mara drink.

DenverRalphy

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

Werewolf IS harder to level than vampire by default. To level vampire skill line you become a vampire, then you just play as normal. You dont even need to invest in the skill line. You dont need to feed or do quests or get achievements or use the skills or even have the skills equipped (though that speeds it up). You just need to gain exp. Which means exp boosts impact it as well.

<snipped for brevity>

Leveling vampire does require skills on the skill bar. You don't get vampire xp by just walking around being a vampire collecting experience.

ShutUpitsRed

DenverRalphy wrote: »

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

Werewolf IS harder to level than vampire by default. To level vampire skill line you become a vampire, then you just play as normal. You dont even need to invest in the skill line. You dont need to feed or do quests or get achievements or use the skills or even have the skills equipped (though that speeds it up). You just need to gain exp. Which means exp boosts impact it as well.

<snipped for brevity>

Leveling vampire does require skills on the skill bar. You don't get vampire xp by just walking around being a vampire collecting experience.

That's not true.

joshisanonymous

Erickson9610 wrote: »

I was initially responding to the point of "curses should have downsides" because I don't believe that's a good enough justification for ZOS to not make the experience better.

Literally everything has a downside. That's how choices work. If there were only positive sides, then there'd be no reason to choose anything else. If being vampire had no downsides whatsoever, you wouldn't have any non-vampires in the game. Why would anyone want to forego icing on their cake? This is simply how RPGs where choices matter work: you have to pick which pros and cons you want.

BloodRedHurricane

Lore-wise, you are wrong. There are different strains of vampirism in Elder Scrolls universe. Like viruses in our life. Each virus has different properties. So; each vampirism strain has different properties and different alterations to their hosts. I don't know for sure if it is totally biological or magical thing in Elder Scrolls universe but; I can definitely say that ESO vampires (Noxiphilic Sanguivoria) and Skyrim vampires (Sanguinare Vampiris) are not same.

BloodRedHurricane

The thing I say is; it is NOT lore-breaking but; lore-accurate. Check the link I put there.

DenverRalphy

ShutUpitsRed wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

Werewolf IS harder to level than vampire by default. To level vampire skill line you become a vampire, then you just play as normal. You dont even need to invest in the skill line. You dont need to feed or do quests or get achievements or use the skills or even have the skills equipped (though that speeds it up). You just need to gain exp. Which means exp boosts impact it as well.

<snipped for brevity>

Leveling vampire does require skills on the skill bar. You don't get vampire xp by just walking around being a vampire collecting experience.

That's not true.

Sure it is. Vampire skill line is treated like any other skill line that requires leveling up the skills via XP to advance the line and morph the skills. It's not one of those skill lines that uses reputation (like scrying, psijic, mages, etc) to advance, because there are no activities that award vampire reputation.

Erickson9610

joshisanonymous wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

I was initially responding to the point of "curses should have downsides" because I don't believe that's a good enough justification for ZOS to not make the experience better.

Literally everything has a downside. That's how choices work. If there were only positive sides, then there'd be no reason to choose anything else. If being vampire had no downsides whatsoever, you wouldn't have any non-vampires in the game. Why would anyone want to forego icing on their cake? This is simply how RPGs where choices matter work: you have to pick which pros and cons you want.

The downsides of Vampire should only matter in the combat system. Increased Flame Damage taken, increased non-Vampire ability costs, etcetera.

It should not be the case that there should be downsides outside of combat. Imagine if using Werewolf Transformation instantly broke all of your armor to be thematic to the idea of the transformation literally destroying your clothes. While that would make some sort of sense, it would be a terrible downside to deal with in actual gameplay — and yes, while it's easy to just repair the armor, it's still something inconvenient that's only there for "roleplay".

The only downsides that should matter are the ones which impact the combat system directly, since that's the main part of the game where balance and your decisions matter.

Erickson9610

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

Werewolf IS harder to level than vampire by default. To level vampire skill line you become a vampire, then you just play as normal. You dont even need to invest in the skill line. You dont need to feed or do quests or get achievements or use the skills or even have the skills equipped (though that speeds it up). You just need to gain exp. Which means exp boosts impact it as well.

The only reasons to feed are to: have fun, increase stage, steal from npcs bodies.

With werewolf you have to sacrifice an ultimate slot, transform and get credit for kills while in the form. It can go fast if you have a good build, but it's harder than vampire on a new account, especially without gear and cp. And devour was added in 2018 because it was such a chore to maintain Werewolf to level it, so you cant really compare the two as the leveling experiences are on different metrics.

With the solutions given in this thread and several of them free or very low cost. There is nothing wrong with the set up as is.

As for moving Mesmerize and making it free. We'll first its an active skill and one thats not useful at lower levels or to new players. Damage skills are better when starting out. Also, lore wise it makes sense that a low level vampire wouldnt be able to use the skill, and again you can gain access to it by simply gaining experience.

And if you do get stuck. Often just asking in zone for help will get you out of your bind. Either a home to port to, or a purifying mara drink.

I see the point about the first skill in the toolkit needing to be a damage skill. Though, Vampires are expected to use abilities from other skill lines, whereas Werewolves are not. Every humanoid player has access to Soul Trap, so every Vampire already has some damaging skill.

robwolf666

Don't know if anyone said it yet but - you can use the merchant and banker in the Outlaw Refuge while you're at Vamp 4, I do it all the time. Or have your own merchant/banker.