Honestly - Is Vengeance Viable?

JustLovely

Gabriel_H wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

Yesterday prime time Saturday night it was 2 bars for every faction on PC NA.

If Grey Host was active all three factions would have been popped locked.

Fewer and fewer people are coming back after every instance of vengeance.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

mocap wrote: »

It will become clear when (and if) they keep only two campaigns. But guilds are unlikely to play Vengeance, meaning it won't be popular. One or two bars during prime time, my bet.

Two bars in primetime on Vengeance is more than pop lock on Live.

You don't know this. Even Jessica blurred out the actual player numbers on the graphs she posted.

You mean the graphs that stated the player cap and you could see the side by side comparisons? /facepalm

Yep. Those are the graphs that have the player numbers blurred out. Take a look again, it's right there on the left axis. All the numbers are blurred out. They slapped a number on the graph but we have no idea if that number is actually reflective of the player numbers on the graphs or not, as that axis on the graphs is blurred out.

/facepalm is right.

We have corroborating evidence. Addons estimated Live population cap at around 300, it turns out it was 360, and they estimated Vengeance to be around 900, the same as ZOS stated.

Here's a very simple number extraction based on stated caps and simple area extrapolation:



The lines along the Y-axis are evenly spaced. You can see that the red line is just shy of half way between 250 and 500. Now, 500 - 250 = 250. 250/2 = 125. 250 + 125 = 375. So if the player cap is 360 it would fall where it is showing there.

Likewise, the green line is just over half-way between 750 and 1,000. 1000 - 750 = 250. 250/2 = 125. 750 + 125 = 875. So if the player cap is 900 it would fall just where it is showing.

Now, you can either believe ZOS's stated cap numbers or not, but regardless of actual numbers Vengeance has a population cap 2.67 times higher than Live - as shown by the graph.

Hey look! The player number axis on the left of the graphs are blurred out....just like everyone is pointing out.

Hey look, simple high school maths make that irrelevant.

Simple question, if its so irrelevant, why blur anything out in the first place?

They likely blurred the y-axis on the performance numbers as they are commercially sensitive, and simply went a bit overboard.

As I said, the graph shows that the Venegance population is 2.67x higher than the Live population. So you can either believe the player cap on Live is 360, which is the ballpark that players have been estimating for years, or not - and if not then by all means tell me what you think the current Live cap is.

You saying it doesn't make it true. You don't have any idea what the actual population numbers in either Grey Host or vengeance any more than the rest of us do.

xylena

SneaK wrote: »

it makes PvE irrelevant for PvPers

Yeah this is awesome. I can log in and immediately have fun in PvP without wasting hours on boring prep work just to level the playing field. I can invite friends who have never played before. My wins aren't cheapened by an artificial stat advantage.

ESO has long been a casual theme park, not a hardcore grind fest.

SneaK

xylena wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

it makes PvE irrelevant for PvPers

Yeah this is awesome. I can log in and immediately have fun in PvP without wasting hours on boring prep work just to level the playing field. I can invite friends who have never played before. My wins aren't cheapened by an artificial stat advantage.

ESO has long been a casual theme park, not a hardcore grind fest.

This is selfish delusion, ESO has been doing updates for a decade adding dungeons/sets/zones/crafting/housing/challenges/etc. but because you like mindless template PvP the rest of the playerbase should hop on board with getting rid of incentive to do all of the above. It’s a time sink, when it’s not, guess what, people won’t sink their time into it and it’ll die out.

xylena

SneaK wrote: »

because you like mindless template PvP

It’s a time sink, when it’s not, guess what, people won’t sink their time into it and it’ll die out.

Come fight me on Vengeance and see if that holds true.

Players sink time into what they find fun. Not homework. There's good reason ESO, WoW, and FF14 have all been relaxing grind requirements in favor of accessibility. If you want 00s era competitive grind, you're on the wrong game. Maybe try some K-MMOs.

SneaK

xylena wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

because you like mindless template PvP

It’s a time sink, when it’s not, guess what, people won’t sink their time into it and it’ll die out.

Come fight me on Vengeance and see if that holds true.

Players sink time into what they find fun. Not homework. There's good reason ESO, WoW, and FF14 have all been relaxing grind requirements in favor of accessibility. If you want 00s era competitive grind, you're on the wrong game. Maybe try some K-MMOs.

Sure, meet you at Ice Hearts house 1:37am tomorrow.

No clue what you’re even saying anymore.

xylena

SneaK wrote: »

No clue what you’re even saying anymore.

I play video games for fun, not to prove what a hard worker I am.

SneaK

xylena wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

No clue what you’re even saying anymore.

I play video games for fun, not to prove what a hard worker I am.

Same. I think it’s fun to try new setups and not run a Magblade template.

The part I think you’re missing, Vengeance going away wasn’t one of the options ZOS listed, however GH disappearing was. If you’re a Vengenace loyalist, good for you, but there’s no real need to scream out about getting rid of GH since it in theory has no affect on you.

BardokRedSnow

fizzybeef wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

and then Vengeance comes along and makes them stop playing for a week... it is a VERY convenient time to simply step away for good.

I only play this game when Vengeance is up, so I only get 1 week every 3 months.

okay i dont need to read more 💀😂

Lol well at least she's being honest finally unlike a lot of the people on this site pretending to be expert pvpers while advocating for vengeance.

xR3ACTORx

xylena wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

No clue what you’re even saying anymore.

I play video games for fun, not to prove what a hard worker I am.

OK cool

edward_frigidhands

xylena wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

and then Vengeance comes along and makes them stop playing for a week... it is a VERY convenient time to simply step away for good.

I only play this game when Vengeance is up, so I only get 1 week every 3 months.

The 100 or so GH regulars could all quit forever with zero impact on the game as a whole.

If you're still holding hope that they'll "fix" GH after 12 directionless years... lol.

GH caps out at 360 players at the moment according to the developers but its not always the same people in the campaign at all times since different players from different time zones with different schedules play the game.

So it wouldn't be correct to say GH has 100 or so players. It wouldn't even be correct to say that number is 360.

Additionally, you want to consider the fact that there are Blackreach players who do not want to play Vengeance and there is a Gray Host campaign on every ESO server. This includes PC NA, PC EU, XBox NA, Xbox EU, Playstation NA and Playstation EU.

Add players from all of the above mentioned servers who prefer the Gray Host campaign and you are looking at a lot more than 100 players.

This is kind of the issue when discussing the subject with people who want this new mode. Not enough people want to play it and they want ZOS to kill other modes so people who hate this game mode go play it. Which is nonsensical because they dont like it and they will just go play another video game title or the new mini-keep zone instead of going into the Vengeance campaign.

However you slice it, you can't make people play a game or content in the game that they don't want to play.

I understand you prefer the Vengeance game mode and it is completely fine if you like that.

It is just toxic however if you're trying to get other game modes that other people prefer deleted with the misconception that this will change their minds about playing the one you prefer.

Durham

I’m a long-time Blackreach player, and I want to explain why so many of us left—and why we probably won’t last under the current PvP plans. Especially if Blackreach or a smaller map alternative does not materialize.

Blackreach has always been our home. Even today, it still reaches medium pops on weekends and sometimes during the week. Before this past summer, the population was healthier and the gameplay was fun. There were plenty of Blues, Reds and Yellows to fight, and the environment felt competitive, social, and alive.

Due to factors I do not want to go into, the population has decreased.

Despite that, Blackreach is still fun most nights.
Even with low pops, we fight familiar faces, we talk to each other, and it’s competitive without being miserable. Many of us have been in ESO PvP since 2015, and we’ve all done the ball-group scene. We’ve run organized raids, we’ve done the meta builds, we’ve played Greyhost at its peak.

But that’s not what we want anymore. We like experimenting with unique builds, we like small-scale fights, and we like an MMO PvP environment—not an FPS-style lobby shooter. (VENG)

Greyhost isn’t fun for us—and the performance proves the point. We do like Greyhost during the day; however, we all work and cannot play during the day.
We gave it another chance recently, and it was a disaster. I got pulled through a wall from inside a door and Vicious Deathed instantly. Performance issues are real—even on high-end hardware—because the bottleneck is server-side.

The core problems in Greyhost never get addressed:
Overhealing
Speed creep
Shield stacking
And all of it overwhelmingly benefits ball groups
These ball groups, in turn, tank performance for everyone else in the fight.

This is why we absolutely do not want Vengeance.
Vengeance does not belong in an MMORPG. It feels like an FPS arena mode more than anything else. It removes the MMO identity from PvP, and it disconnects the entire experience from the rest of the game. Greyhost is broken, and instead of fixing it—or addressing the balance issues that have been around for years—the developers seem to be choosing a lazy workaround so they no longer have to meaningfully balance PvP.

And for many of us, that’s the breaking point.

Right now, none of us are playing. We’re all in other games, and we’re not sure we’ll be back if the only options moving forward are broken Greyhost or FPS-style Vengeance.

All we ever wanted was:
A functioning MMO PvP campaign
Balance that discourages unhealthy ball-group metas
A space for smaller or more creative groups to actually play
Stable performance that doesn’t collapse when multiple single-stacked group rolls through

Blackreach was that place. And until there’s a real effort to fix Greyhost and restore meaningful PvP balance, there’s very little reason for players like us to return.

edward_frigidhands

Durham wrote: »

I’m a long-time Blackreach player, and I want to explain why so many of us left—and why we probably won’t return under the current PvP plans.

Blackreach has always been our home. Even today, it still reaches medium pops on weekends and sometimes during the week. Before this past summer, the population was healthier and the gameplay was fun. There were plenty of Blues, Reds and Yellows to fight, and the environment felt competitive, social, and alive.

Due to factors I do not want to go into, the population has decreased.

Despite that, Blackreach is still fun most nights.
Even with low pops, we fight familiar faces, we talk to each other, and it’s competitive without being miserable. Many of us have been in ESO PvP since 2015, and we’ve all done the ball-group scene. We’ve run organized raids, we’ve done the meta builds, we’ve played Greyhost at its peak.

But that’s not what we want anymore. We like experimenting with unique builds, we like small-scale fights, and we like an MMO PvP environment—not an FPS-style lobby shooter.

Greyhost isn’t fun for us—and the performance proves the point.
We gave it another chance recently, and it was a disaster. I got pulled through a wall from inside a door and Vicious Deathed instantly. Performance issues are real—even on high-end hardware—because the bottleneck is server-side.

The core problems in Greyhost never get addressed:

Overhealing

Speed creep

Shield stacking

And all of it overwhelmingly benefits ball groups
These ball groups, in turn, tank performance for everyone else in the fight.

This is why we absolutely do not want Vengeance.
Vengeance does not belong in an MMORPG. It feels like an FPS arena mode more than anything else. It removes the MMO identity from PvP, and it disconnects the entire experience from the rest of the game. Greyhost is broken, and instead of fixing it—or addressing the balance issues that have been around for years—the developers seem to be choosing a lazy workaround so they no longer have to meaningfully balance PvP.

And for many of us, that’s the breaking point.

Right now, none of us are playing. We’re all in other games, and we’re not sure we’ll be back if the only options moving forward are broken Greyhost or FPS-style Vengeance.

All we ever wanted was:

A functioning MMO PvP campaign

Balance that discourages unhealthy ball-group metas

A space for smaller or more creative groups to actually play

Stable performance that doesn’t collapse when a single stacked group rolls through

Blackreach was that place. And until there’s a real effort to fix Greyhost and restore meaningful PvP balance, there’s very little reason for players like us to return.

Very well said.

xylena

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

It is just toxic however if you're trying to get other game modes that other people prefer deleted with the misconception that this will change their minds about playing the one you prefer.

Nah not trying to change minds, nor split hairs over estimates. 100, 360, whatever. It's a drop in the bucket compared to the thousands of casual PvE regulars, many of whom would love to try a casual PvP they can immediately jump into and learn on the fly, no need for weeks of prep.

They could full switch to Vengeance, lose all those GH regulars forever, and the game as a whole wouldn't notice or care. I still advocate for Vengeance even with this in mind. Most of those GH regulars probably wouldn't actually quit, they'd complain but keep playing (and spending) anyway, just like they've been doing for the past decade.

Either way, they're still never gonna fix GH, because it can't be fixed.

Rohamad_Ali

How much longer till this test is over? I would like a return to my normal crappy pvp please.

BardokRedSnow

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

How much longer till this test is over? I would like a return to my normal crappy pvp please.

Greyhost is back and populated in the evenings. Last two days have been locked out pops in GH after 7pm eastern, Vengeance population is dead. Was just a few ep players taking an empty map. PCNA

manukartofanu

xylena wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

and then Vengeance comes along and makes them stop playing for a week... it is a VERY convenient time to simply step away for good.

I only play this game when Vengeance is up, so I only get 1 week every 3 months.

The 100 or so GH regulars could all quit forever with zero impact on the game as a whole.

If you're still holding hope that they'll "fix" GH after 12 directionless years... lol.

Actually, if those who log in once every three months stop playing, no one will even notice.
But if the entire PvP community leaves—that’s minus 200–500 players from the current online population. Along with them, part of the economy will collapse, which will lead to further player loss.

If you keep making changes that reduce online numbers or push players away, eventually there will be no players left. And those who played once every three months will keep doing exactly that - playing once every three months.

What we have already: a guaranteed event page drop for people who want rewards for five minutes of gameplay. The result? A ruined event economy and zero reason to farm boxes, which led, surprise, surprise, to lower online numbers.

Arcanist: letting in newcomers and people who don’t want to spend time learning how to play. The result? Players with no skill can easily clear all the content they previously couldn’t, and then they leave.

And the list of concessions and pandering to those who don’t actually want to play the game can go on and on.
The outcome: a game made for people who don’t want to play it.

heaven13

xylena wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

It is just toxic however if you're trying to get other game modes that other people prefer deleted with the misconception that this will change their minds about playing the one you prefer.

Nah not trying to change minds, nor split hairs over estimates. 100, 360, whatever. It's a drop in the bucket compared to the thousands of casual PvE regulars, many of whom would love to try a casual PvP they can immediately jump into and learn on the fly, no need for weeks of prep.

They could full switch to Vengeance, lose all those GH regulars forever, and the game as a whole wouldn't notice or care. I still advocate for Vengeance even with this in mind. Most of those GH regulars probably wouldn't actually quit, they'd complain but keep playing (and spending) anyway, just like they've been doing for the past decade.

Either way, they're still never gonna fix GH, because it can't be fixed.

I don't think most people are learning though. Based on the leaderboards, most people are coming in, staying for a fight or two, and leaving. Maybe some of them aren't homing a campaign. They're not staying long term. And how much learning are you doing when the campaign is solely a zerg fest? Learn to swap the alliance with the highest numbers?

I certainly think GH has problems and needs fixed or at least adjusted. Take some of the lessons learned in Vengeance to try to apply to GH instead of just saying "nope sorry, it is what it is and there is nothing we can do". But I don't particularly care for Vengeance either because it gets really boring after awhile when it's just "whoever has the most players, wins" and there's really nothing that can be done about it.

xylena

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Greyhost is back and populated in the evenings.

Vengeance has pretty much the same action during NA prime time. On average you pick either the 1 circle keep zerg brawl, or the 1 back keep PvDoor defense. GH is completely dead outside NA prime time, so is Vengeance. It will take time to rebuild critical mass regardless of format.

heaven13 wrote: »

I don't think most people are learning though.

They at least have a chance to learn. There is no chance to learn on full build mode. You will be deleted instantly if you don't already have the correct knowledge and prep. This may not be a big deal for a trifecta pro, but it's an absolute impasse for the average gamer.

xR3ACTORx

xylena wrote: »

There is no chance to learn on full build mode. You will be deleted instantly if you don't already have the correct knowledge and prep. This may not be a big deal for a trifecta pro, but it's an absolute impasse for the average gamer.

Every PvP vet started at zero. PvP is advertised as Endgame in ESO.

Endgame isn't probably for every average gamer.

Radiate77

xR3ACTORx wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

There is no chance to learn on full build mode. You will be deleted instantly if you don't already have the correct knowledge and prep. This may not be a big deal for a trifecta pro, but it's an absolute impasse for the average gamer.

Every PvP vet started at zero.

There’s a difference between starting at zero while surrounded by other zeroes, and starting out leagues behind everyone else.

Back in the day, you could make a Wrecking Blow Templar that spammed nothing else, with Sun Shield as a defense skill, wearing nothing but Imperial converted basic non-set Heavy Armor and win fights against other players.

Good luck to anyone trying that now. 😂

xylena

xR3ACTORx wrote: »

Endgame isn't probably for every average gamer.

The philosophy of a dead game.

LittleLionLeone

This thread as gone off the rails. People are just using it to argue now it seems. Yes on both sides.

xylena

LittleLionLeone wrote: »

People are just using it to argue now it seems.

An argument? On an internet forum? Tamriel has fallen. Billions must be nerfed.

xR3ACTORx

xylena wrote: »

xR3ACTORx wrote: »

Endgame isn't probably for every average gamer.

The philosophy of a dead game.

You see what you wanna see.

I don't argue on the internet anyway 🤷

Lord_Hev

xylena wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

because you like mindless template PvP

It’s a time sink, when it’s not, guess what, people won’t sink their time into it and it’ll die out.

Come fight me on Vengeance and see if that holds true.

Players sink time into what they find fun. Not homework. There's good reason ESO, WoW, and FF14 have all been relaxing grind requirements in favor of accessibility. If you want 00s era competitive grind, you're on the wrong game. Maybe try some K-MMOs.

Surely you remember the golden days of pvp? It was ironically during a time when ESO -was- a hardcore grind game. I think the concept of a grind has been misconstrued. The way I see it, it has been the casualification of a lot of the "grind" systems that actually turned pvp into the sweat-fest it is now. Consider the ease of building all the hyper-specialized min-max set-ups. The only time sink is transmute crystals, but all gear is now universally accessible. I'd argue that a hardcore grind mechanic-philosophy actually casualifies the game more.

Now of course, there is also the issue that this was a timeframe where the only established meta was centered around stat balance due to the limit of proc sets amongst several other factors. And right now, there is a plethora of these sets that have in their own vacuum caused and continue to cause issues. But what if transmutation never existed? What if reconstruction never existed? What if people had to actually grind all these ridiculous hyper min-max'd soulless builds that have zero personalization and creativity? I'd wager the playing field right now would be more level.

The super sweats would be the ones that have the energy and time-sink to grind them out, as it has always been. But for the rest? They would settle for craftable and more easily accessible options, as it had been. This also goes into this whole "equal-playing field" argument, and I believe that sentiment actually ruined the game. And I will use my anecdotal experience with you Xylena. I have fond memories of squaring off against your DK: completely off-meta, a stamdk. And you were a nightmare to fight against. Again, this was delicate balance as the most "meta" one could go largely revolved around "stat balance" the game under-the-hood was also very different, but I hope the point I'm making, makes sense. A hardcore grind isn't inherently bad if it's done within reason. The vast plethora of sets now, the "bloat" all the other under-the-hood decisions in conjunction with transmutes allowing "build however you want, ultimate casual freedom" has enabled some of the most sweat-fest hyper min-max'd metas of all of eso's time. These have all "added up" over time.

aetherix8

manukartofanu wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

and then Vengeance comes along and makes them stop playing for a week... it is a VERY convenient time to simply step away for good.

I only play this game when Vengeance is up, so I only get 1 week every 3 months.

The 100 or so GH regulars could all quit forever with zero impact on the game as a whole.

If you're still holding hope that they'll "fix" GH after 12 directionless years... lol.

Actually, if those who log in once every three months stop playing, no one will even notice.
But if the entire PvP community leaves—that’s minus 200–500 players from the current online population. Along with them, part of the economy will collapse, which will lead to further player loss.

If you keep making changes that reduce online numbers or push players away, eventually there will be no players left. And those who played once every three months will keep doing exactly that - playing once every three months.

What we have already: a guaranteed event page drop for people who want rewards for five minutes of gameplay. The result? A ruined event economy and zero reason to farm boxes, which led, surprise, surprise, to lower online numbers.

Arcanist: letting in newcomers and people who don’t want to spend time learning how to play. The result? Players with no skill can easily clear all the content they previously couldn’t, and then they leave.

And the list of concessions and pandering to those who don’t actually want to play the game can go on and on.
The outcome: a game made for people who don’t want to play it.

That is not entirely true. Sure, it is less evident when players leave one by one as opposed to the entire base at once, but the effects are still noticeable. Population is shrinking and PvPers are aware of it. Also, those who left took their wallet with them so there’s that impact too.

Some of the people who plan to move to other games should Veng be permanent (alongside GH) will be replaced by others coming back (and some will bring their friends).

Time will tell if we’re indeed witnessing the death of ESO PvP, or a new beginning.

fizzybeef

aetherix8 wrote: »

manukartofanu wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

and then Vengeance comes along and makes them stop playing for a week... it is a VERY convenient time to simply step away for good.

I only play this game when Vengeance is up, so I only get 1 week every 3 months.

The 100 or so GH regulars could all quit forever with zero impact on the game as a whole.

If you're still holding hope that they'll "fix" GH after 12 directionless years... lol.

Actually, if those who log in once every three months stop playing, no one will even notice.
But if the entire PvP community leaves—that’s minus 200–500 players from the current online population. Along with them, part of the economy will collapse, which will lead to further player loss.

If you keep making changes that reduce online numbers or push players away, eventually there will be no players left. And those who played once every three months will keep doing exactly that - playing once every three months.

What we have already: a guaranteed event page drop for people who want rewards for five minutes of gameplay. The result? A ruined event economy and zero reason to farm boxes, which led, surprise, surprise, to lower online numbers.

Arcanist: letting in newcomers and people who don’t want to spend time learning how to play. The result? Players with no skill can easily clear all the content they previously couldn’t, and then they leave.

And the list of concessions and pandering to those who don’t actually want to play the game can go on and on.
The outcome: a game made for people who don’t want to play it.

That is not entirely true. Sure, it is less evident when players leave one by one as opposed to the entire base at once, but the effects are still noticeable. Population is shrinking and PvPers are aware of it. Also, those who left took their wallet with them so there’s that impact too.

Some of the people who plan to move to other games should Veng be permanent (alongside GH) will be replaced by others coming back (and some will bring their friends).

Time will tell if we’re indeed witnessing the death of ESO PvP, or a new beginning.

I agree with what you said. From how i see it, more people despite vengeance then liking it. So imo if these who despite it, leave entirely, the impact is bigger.
Anyway its weird how the playerbase gets split lately, same with subclassing..

aetherix8

fizzybeef wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

manukartofanu wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

and then Vengeance comes along and makes them stop playing for a week... it is a VERY convenient time to simply step away for good.

I only play this game when Vengeance is up, so I only get 1 week every 3 months.

The 100 or so GH regulars could all quit forever with zero impact on the game as a whole.

If you're still holding hope that they'll "fix" GH after 12 directionless years... lol.

Actually, if those who log in once every three months stop playing, no one will even notice.
But if the entire PvP community leaves—that’s minus 200–500 players from the current online population. Along with them, part of the economy will collapse, which will lead to further player loss.

If you keep making changes that reduce online numbers or push players away, eventually there will be no players left. And those who played once every three months will keep doing exactly that - playing once every three months.

What we have already: a guaranteed event page drop for people who want rewards for five minutes of gameplay. The result? A ruined event economy and zero reason to farm boxes, which led, surprise, surprise, to lower online numbers.

Arcanist: letting in newcomers and people who don’t want to spend time learning how to play. The result? Players with no skill can easily clear all the content they previously couldn’t, and then they leave.

And the list of concessions and pandering to those who don’t actually want to play the game can go on and on.
The outcome: a game made for people who don’t want to play it.

That is not entirely true. Sure, it is less evident when players leave one by one as opposed to the entire base at once, but the effects are still noticeable. Population is shrinking and PvPers are aware of it. Also, those who left took their wallet with them so there’s that impact too.

Some of the people who plan to move to other games should Veng be permanent (alongside GH) will be replaced by others coming back (and some will bring their friends).

Time will tell if we’re indeed witnessing the death of ESO PvP, or a new beginning.

I agree with what you said. From how i see it, more people despite vengeance then liking it. So imo if these who despite it, leave entirely, the impact is bigger.
Anyway its weird how the playerbase gets split lately, same with subclassing..

“As above so below”, I would say. Society is more and more polarized, and that is reflected in different communities, including gamers.

Sarannah

aetherix8 wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

manukartofanu wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

and then Vengeance comes along and makes them stop playing for a week... it is a VERY convenient time to simply step away for good.

I only play this game when Vengeance is up, so I only get 1 week every 3 months.

The 100 or so GH regulars could all quit forever with zero impact on the game as a whole.

If you're still holding hope that they'll "fix" GH after 12 directionless years... lol.

Actually, if those who log in once every three months stop playing, no one will even notice.
But if the entire PvP community leaves—that’s minus 200–500 players from the current online population. Along with them, part of the economy will collapse, which will lead to further player loss.

If you keep making changes that reduce online numbers or push players away, eventually there will be no players left. And those who played once every three months will keep doing exactly that - playing once every three months.

What we have already: a guaranteed event page drop for people who want rewards for five minutes of gameplay. The result? A ruined event economy and zero reason to farm boxes, which led, surprise, surprise, to lower online numbers.

Arcanist: letting in newcomers and people who don’t want to spend time learning how to play. The result? Players with no skill can easily clear all the content they previously couldn’t, and then they leave.

And the list of concessions and pandering to those who don’t actually want to play the game can go on and on.
The outcome: a game made for people who don’t want to play it.

That is not entirely true. Sure, it is less evident when players leave one by one as opposed to the entire base at once, but the effects are still noticeable. Population is shrinking and PvPers are aware of it. Also, those who left took their wallet with them so there’s that impact too.

Some of the people who plan to move to other games should Veng be permanent (alongside GH) will be replaced by others coming back (and some will bring their friends).

Time will tell if we’re indeed witnessing the death of ESO PvP, or a new beginning.

I agree with what you said. From how i see it, more people despite vengeance then liking it. So imo if these who despite it, leave entirely, the impact is bigger.
Anyway its weird how the playerbase gets split lately, same with subclassing..

As above so below, I would say. Society is more and more polarized, and that is reflected in different communities, including gamers.

Which is a shame, as people should want to think for themselves and should respect different opinions. This is coming from an EU player who likes healthy discussions.

Even those who dislike vengeance should advocate for vengeance, just like those who dislike grey host should want to keep grey host available for those that do like grey host. The more gamemodes available, the more players who can happily play those modes. Every added mode also has the bonus to attract a new playertype to ESO, growing the playerbase. In this case the PvP playerbase. Which in turn could also help grow grey host.

Sort of like: "Helping them helps you!"

PS: It does not matter how many players despise vengeance, it matters how many players like vengeance. (Same with grey host.)

manukartofanu

aetherix8 wrote: »

manukartofanu wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

and then Vengeance comes along and makes them stop playing for a week... it is a VERY convenient time to simply step away for good.

I only play this game when Vengeance is up, so I only get 1 week every 3 months.

The 100 or so GH regulars could all quit forever with zero impact on the game as a whole.

If you're still holding hope that they'll "fix" GH after 12 directionless years... lol.

Actually, if those who log in once every three months stop playing, no one will even notice.
But if the entire PvP community leaves—that’s minus 200–500 players from the current online population. Along with them, part of the economy will collapse, which will lead to further player loss.

If you keep making changes that reduce online numbers or push players away, eventually there will be no players left. And those who played once every three months will keep doing exactly that - playing once every three months.

What we have already: a guaranteed event page drop for people who want rewards for five minutes of gameplay. The result? A ruined event economy and zero reason to farm boxes, which led, surprise, surprise, to lower online numbers.

Arcanist: letting in newcomers and people who don’t want to spend time learning how to play. The result? Players with no skill can easily clear all the content they previously couldn’t, and then they leave.

And the list of concessions and pandering to those who don’t actually want to play the game can go on and on.
The outcome: a game made for people who don’t want to play it.

That is not entirely true. Sure, it is less evident when players leave one by one as opposed to the entire base at once, but the effects are still noticeable. Population is shrinking and PvPers are aware of it. Also, those who left took their wallet with them so there’s that impact too.

Some of the people who plan to move to other games should Veng be permanent (alongside GH) will be replaced by others coming back (and some will bring their friends).

Time will tell if we’re indeed witnessing the death of ESO PvP, or a new beginning.

The thesis you highlighted has nothing to do with what you're refuting. People who log in once every three months are basically people who have already stopped playing. That has nothing to do with the fact that PvE players are leaving the game in a thin trickle. PvP players also probably wouldn’t all quit at once if GH were shut down — some would still try playing Vengeance until they finally got disappointed. And that too would be the same one-by-one departure.