The Developer Deep Dive - Why not just getting rid of subclassing and saving ressources?

Gabriel_H

Jaavaa wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Jaavaa wrote: »

You can do another 1000 Posts more about removing subclassing. ZoS never removed anything what they doing in the last 11yrs.

Crafting items & furniture
Armour sets
Mercenary contracts
Veteran system

Which armor sets have been removed?
Veteran System was further developed to CP System.
Mercenary Cons and Furnishing are far away from the deep changes like subclassing. Completely different world.

I stand by my opinion. They never remove it except in Vengeance.

About 6 sets were removed when One Tamriel came out.
CP is not further development of VP, it was an entirely new system built from scratch because VP was terrible.

You can express any opinion you like, you can even shift the goal posts, but it doesn't make it true.

tauriel01

ZOS created arcanist to be the answer to "raising the DPS floor." They were never able to lower the ceiling. They tried with Oakensoul, but that didn't quite reach the level of acceptance in vet trials (we won't even discuss vet cloudrest.... ). So they created a class that would outcompete just about every other build, even by people who couldn't or wouldn't light attack weave or learn a rotation. And it worked, they raised the floor by quite a bit. Now mediocre (or worse) DPS were able to put out enough DPS to get into vet raiding. All good. However, arc ALSO raised the ceiling. Now the meta was arcanists. Lots of them. ZOS has had ample opportunity to nerf the DPS output of arcs but has deliberately chosen not to. It accomplished what it set out to do. That's why no one who plays anything but arcanist will find a place in trifecta groups (unless you happen to be a support DPS or that one lonely templar invited only because of execute DPS). Arcanist changed the meta and changed the raiding scene significantly. But then again, hybridization had already started us down that path.

Subclassing, I think, was their end game with the slide down the hybridization slope. I'm pretty sure if they could get rid of stamina and magicka and just have one "DPS resource" pool they would. I also think if they could get rid of classes all together they would. But all that stuff is likely hard baked into the code and can't be removed. So subclassing was the answer. Let's let anyone get the super good lines (well, ok, if by "everyone" you mean NB, DK, or arc) then raids will have greater variation. Yeah, ok, keep telling yourself that. All subclassing achieved was dividing the player base into those who love it and those who hate it, and changing the meta. Again.

If they get rid of subclassing, they will again divide the player base into those who hoped the door DID hit it in the rear on its way out and those who mourn its passing. We will all go back to what we were doing before subclassing, which is raids full of arcanists, cause they still outparse so many other builds for the average, or even above average player. Yeah, there are those outlier players that could always parse 120k on a warden, but there aren't enough players like that to fill all the raids. So we all play arcs.

Short of a huge overhaul of skill lines, including nerfing arc beam DPS output, there's no way they are going to "balance" the DPS skill lines across all classes so anyone can play any class and still be competitive in vet raiding. I mean, they've been trying to do that for years without success.

BardokRedSnow

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CoronHR wrote: »

subclassing is a cat that's already out of the bag -- there's no going back.

offhand i'd say perhaps giving players a buff for being pure class, or a debuff for being subclass (eg subclass skills are some percentage less powerful 10% 20% idk) might be an immediate-term fix to encourage pure class

i like how they describe their approach to the classes and i'd say they should lean into this more heavily (which it sounds like they will do so)

yeah, subclassing -- i think it will have to have a nerf-debuff applied to it, if they want to promote pure class identity. or introduce sets that buff a pure class, since they love introducing new sets, which are often big throwaway waste of content (sorry, but like 90-95% of sets are throwaway). perhap introduce a set that's similar to one that's BIS now, but with a pure-class bonus in the 5-piece

I think simply giving buffs to pure classing would be enough. Debuffing subclassed skills would make it totally useless. The act of combining different class skill lines is already a major buff to healing and crit damage as is.

DK will benefit majorly from these changes, as its one of the few classes that still performs decently pure. Am excited to see what comes. All we really need is a sustain boost and we're good. Anything else is a nice bonus.

Eliahnus

Buffing pure classing would nullify the purpose of subclassing.

BardokRedSnow

Eliahnus wrote: »

Buffing pure classing would nullify the purpose of subclassing.

The purpose of subclassing is to have options to iron out your build, not grossly overpower and nullify pure classes.

Buffing pure classes would put them on par with subclassing as it should be, if not stronger generally speaking besides in specialized builds. Thats the way it is in other rpgs with the concept and thats how it always should be or there's no uniqueness in the classes anymore and makes the game feel hollow. A stat sheet pure and simple.

That appeals to some who just want the power but feeling unique from others is a big part of an rpg, and you definitely have that in spades if both pure classing and subclassing are viable instead of just one or the other.

BXR_Lonestar

Soarora wrote: »

Subclassing is another problem on top of the mountain of problems with classes. Rolling back subclassing doesn’t fix the core issue— that people can’t get into groups as any class and that classes are only mildly different from each other.

The former comes from the fact that some classes offer more in terms of group synergy (buffs) than others. That is why some classes are excluded from high-end groups in very difficult/endgame content. Rolling back subclassing won't fix this issue but rebalancing the classes potentially will.

The latter is the result of their 1-to-1 balancing approach, meaning they want similar skills on classes to perform similarly. For instance, if you are a DK and you apply a DoT, they want that DoT to do the same damage that, say a nightblade applies with a bleed effect. The result is that the abilities only differ in animation.

What is also problematic is their "play any way you like" mentality that they wanted to carry over from TES games. I absolutely LOVE the TES games, but you cannot make an MMO with that same mentality. It is simply a ridiculous goal to think that every class should be able to heal, DPS, and tank all on at equal proficiency rate. In an MMO, there is simply nothing wrong with some classes performing better in some roles than others, so long as those classes still bring something to the table in a group context.

All of these issues need to be fixed, but the very first step that must be fixed is that they need to have a concept or vision for this game and for the classes, and they need to stick with that vision as they start to remold and revise the combat systems from the ground-level up.

BXR_Lonestar

CoronHR wrote: »

subclassing is a cat that's already out of the bag -- there's no going back.

offhand i'd say perhaps giving players a buff for being pure class, or a debuff for being subclass (eg subclass skills are some percentage less powerful 10% 20% idk) might be an immediate-term fix to encourage pure class

i like how they describe their approach to the classes and i'd say they should lean into this more heavily (which it sounds like they will do so)

yeah, subclassing -- i think it will have to have a nerf-debuff applied to it, if they want to promote pure class identity. or introduce sets that buff a pure class, since they love introducing new sets, which are often big throwaway waste of content (sorry, but like 90-95% of sets are throwaway). perhap introduce a set that's similar to one that's BIS now, but with a pure-class bonus in the 5-piece

IMO, the easy fix is to make it so that class passes are native to the character rather than the class skill lines themselves at the time of creation. So what this means is that your class passives would be like racial passives. You could then change out your skill lines, but in doing so, you don't get the passives from the other class skill lines. You would only be able to use the abilities from other skill lines.

IMO, much of the power in subclassing comes from stacking favorable passive bonuses (i.e., crit chance, crit damage, pen, etc.) that come from a class's passive abilities. Making class passives native to your character at time of creation fixes this issue and reduces to the power subclassing brings to a more reasonable level, and it creates enough separation where you can then buff pure class abilities without giving a corresponding buff to subclassed characters - provided that pure class abilities are created or rebalanced purely with the class passives in mind.

barney2525

I don't understand. Seems like a no-win situation.

They created the game with the intention of the Character being the focus of the Story. And as the Character was played, they were creating that specific Story. The Class selected had an influence on how the character was played. As such, all Achievements were earned by the Character - Not the Player.

Then they switched. The Character was De-emphasized, and the focus was on the Player. You didn't have to start in the Wailing Prison, you didn't even have to Do the Mainline Quest if you didn't want to. The Classes were mish-mashed into a make your own Drone and have fun. As such Achievements became Account Wide. There was such a lack of emphasis on the Character, a Brand new Level one character could wear any Master title they wanted to show, for example Crafting, even though the Character had done no crafting.

So, are we changing back? What exactly is the Focus of the Game on ? Is it the Character and the Character Story? Or is it the Player to see how many different things the Player can accumulate ?

YandereGirlfriend

Because subclassing is an improvement to the game and there was nothing particularly noble or worth defending about the original classes anyway.

amiiegee

I do not think subclassing is a improvement but what we have seen in polls, it splitted the community massively and made more people leave then return to the game.
Absolutely should get rolled back.

Mrtoobyy

I was excited about sub-classing and it has been really fun trying it out. Now that I have tried it = I would love for it to be rolled back.

Maybe it's just me but the more this game gets "updated" it feels more and more "shallow/hollow" and more like a game for kids or cellphones.

The immersive "grown-up" feel of the game just keeps shrinking...
One way of getting back to that is removing subclassing and investing more time in the classes we have.

Lets say for example:
1. More skill styles for the existing skills?
2. DIFFERENT animations to chose from for different morphs
3. Buffing some underused skills
4. MORE class sets, PLEASE ZOS give me some incentive to play something else than PVP with my main toon I've had sice 2014