The Developer Deep Dive - Why not just getting rid of subclassing and saving ressources?

fizzybeef · December 2

Just seen this https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/69039 .

And while i think its good yous are adressing the problems and wanna work on it, the fact yous planning this over multiple updates makes it sound like its gonna take years.

And this all is gonna eat ressources wich could be well spent on other places.

Writing, Zone design, cross play, overland difficulty , fix pvp without bringing vengeance, bug fixing, new chapters, new class etc pp the list could be long.

Dont get me wrong, i find it good you wanna do something.

But wouldnt it be more easy to just roll back subclassing ?

It was a bad idea to begin with, just roll it back and you will see the players coming back aswell.

Way more fast and more effective then what ever is the plan now.

Yes some people will complain.
But you have seen how many people already left because of what went live before

TX12001rwb17_ESO · December 2

They dug themselves into a hole AKA Subclassing they cannot get out because the damage has been done, what do they do, restore everyone who has subclassed back into their normal 3 skill lines and make respec free for a week?

Imagine how many complains there would be of people saying their build was destroyed because they were forced to go back to the way it was before, personally I would not have a problem with this as I have not touched Subclassing and never will.

Soarora · December 2

Subclassing is another problem on top of the mountain of problems with classes. Rolling back subclassing doesn’t fix the core issue— that people can’t get into groups as any class and that classes are only mildly different from each other.

jm42 · December 2

class rework is needed without even connection to subclasses, but without subclassing loop it could be less desperate, BUT funny enough, if it was less desperate, we wouldn't have seen it at all in years. maybe later we can get some cross-racing to get racial passives rework too, lol?

fizzybeef · December 2

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

They dug themselves into a hole AKA Subclassing they cannot get out because the damage has been done, what do they do, restore everyone who has subclassed back into their normal 3 skill lines and make respec free for a week?

Imagine how many complains there would be of people saying their build was destroyed because they were forced to go back to the way it was before, personally I would not have a problem with this as I have not touched Subclassing and never will.

16k endeavours and the complainers will forget probably

StihlReign · December 2

My optimistic guess? First 4 classes will be buffed to OP and spark endless forum/PTS debate. The final 3 will be nerfed, or in the case of Necro ignored, meanwhile this plays out over 2-3 years and eventually gets dropped because some new feature unbalances the entire plan.

Radiate77 · December 2

Subclassing is going to be what drives them to actually balance the Skill Lines… finally.

TomCat · December 2

You gullible ones — it's all about the money.
Subclassing was introduced so ZOS could sell colored effects for skills.

If you use the Arcanist's beam as a Sorcerer, you might want to see an orange-red glow. You might not like that on your Necromancer; you'd rather be blinded by a blue glow when beaming. Then, if you switch to your Templar, your retinas should probably be seared by a glaring yellow glow.
That way, ZOS can sell different, annoying color effects for every skill and every class.

If the money starts flowing in more slowly in the future, ZOS will make a surprising announcement:
"We've heard your wishes and will be implementing a new class."

Of course, the skills of this class will have a completely new color – and bam – it all starts again. /s

Attorneyatlawl · December 3

Pepperidge Farms remembers when we actually had stronger roles for the original 4 classes and they weren't all homogenized... In beta through 2015.

BardokRedSnow · December 3

"One overarching pattern you’ll see as we move toward improving this experience is reorganizing class skill lines, adding in more benefits for sticking with the core skill lines of your class, and decentralizing role-specific power so that a single skill line won’t have every tool you need to achieve your goals."

This is exactly what I wanted to hear, this is exactly what we need to see and what I've been saying they need to do, its obvious. So long as they dont kill greyhost pvp, and do this sooner rather than later... we'll see what happens.

amiiegee · December 3

I agree, just roll it back.

Faulgor · December 3

a) Because subclassing is awesome.
b) Because class identity was already terrible for 10 years before subclassing was introduced.

Rohamad_Ali · December 3

I have never ever in all my years heard ZoS say they are wrong and reverse course, no. They will double down first.

ApoAlaia · December 3

Why stop at subclassing with the rollbacks though?

Rolling back to Scalebreaker - first 'shock to the system' for me - might be a bit extreme but at least roll back to Greymoor?

That would undo a bunch of stuff I find disagreeable - like U35 and ToT just to mention a couple - so everyone wins?

Maitsukas · December 3

How would you compensate the players that put their time and effort into leveling up all skill lines with Subclassing? Are you going to take those Achievements and Titles away from them?

olsborg · December 3

Subclassing should have never happened, take it away now before it drives even more people away from the game. Class identity is more important.

Last'One · December 3

All of this that ZOS is "promising" will take 3 or 4 years to fully implement. No? And even after that, I honestly doubt true balance will exist.

What I really want to know is: what will happen in the meantime? From now forward, until the end of this "Class Identity Refresh," what happens to balance? Nothing? Are we supposed to stay with the game in its current state for the next 4 years? 6 years? How long are we expected to wait?

And lastly… yes, I truly believe we will never see this "Class Identity Refresh" completed. Why? Because if nothing is done in the meantime, the server will die long before then. And honestly, I believe ZOS will release The Elder Scrolls VI way before this “Class Identity Refresh” is finished.

Server’s doomed, lol.

amiiegee · December 3

Maitsukas wrote: »

How would you compensate the players that put their time and effort into leveling up all skill lines with Subclassing? Are you going to take those Achievements and Titles away from them?

Even more seals of endeavour

Eliahnus · December 3

Again, an anti-subclassing post... tiresome.

amiiegee · December 3

Eliahnus wrote: »

Again, an anti-subclassing post... tiresome.

Persoanlly i feel like the whole deep dive thing from yesterday is only made to revert the damage done with subclassing.
I agree with it would be just easier to roll it back

shadyjane62 · December 3

Eliahnus wrote: »

Again, an anti-subclassing post... tiresome.

Eye of the beholder. I despise subclassing so I am enjoying this thread.

magnusthorek · December 3

I've been a Templar almost from the start — my first character was a Sorcerer, but the excess of lightning effects made me retire her. Back then, we were powerful, masters of Aedric energy, but envy, intrigues and, honestly, whining, sledgehammered us. Subsequent nerfs so extreme, that a good bunch of Templars, PvE-wise at least, had either to move to another character, role or then work so, so hard to be barely on par with others by a very small margin.

And we were forgotten...

Now, with subclassing, personally, I felt powerful once again. I can solo hard WBs without even switch to the most optimal preset I have. But the sacrifices I had to make were terrible. First, lore-wise, I felt forced to side with some... thing (?) I deeply and truly detest, the disgusting Herma-mora. It's a personal thing, and I don't judge you for not understanding. Then I had to play the build with powerful laser beams, yes, but that are so bright I occasionally I have to close my eyes when firing them (e.g. super dark caves).

In the end, I feel I'm not a Templar any more, and the feeling is so strong that after 10 years not interested in other roles other than DPS, I decided to become a healer. A less stressful job, yes, but one that, in the end, doesn't fit my play style since, I'm almost always alone, and Companions are utterly useless DPS-wise — not to mention during events we don't even get bosses' loot just by healing other players attacking things around us

licenturion · December 3

A lot of people spend quite an amount of gametime maxing out all subclass skill lines. They are not going to cancel subclassing. Just like they are not deleting Vengeance.

Players: “ZOS never communicates, ZOS never listens, ZOS never gives us what we want!”

ZOS: “Here are literally the biggest concerns you’ve had for the past year(s). Here are pages of data, charts, analysis, and a detailed roadmap of solutions we’re actively working on. One of the two most in depth communication in years.”

Players: “Uhhh no, actually, this isn’t the exact 100.00% perfect fix I imagined in my head at 3 a.m., so we hate it. Stop everything immediately and do my version instead.”

And then we do it all again next month…

Gabriel_H · December 3

Last'One wrote: »

All of this that ZOS is "promising" will take 3 or 4 years to fully implement. No? And even after that, I honestly doubt true balance will exist.

"Several updates" is the vague timeframe. I'd like some clarity on the timeframe, but in the last 12 months they have released 5 major updates. 15 - 20 updates is not several.

They've also moved to their season pass model, which on the surface at least, promises more smaller more frequent updates. Wildly speculating about the timeframe helps who exactly?

playsforfun · December 3

I like subclassing I'd be sad if it were to be removed now, yes it bring major balance issues I agree, I think I'd rather see an evolved version of classes & there skill lines like a second form which would bring in new class skills to bring in it in line with the power of someone who's subclassed.

The reason I say like a second form for classes is that it'd bring a new fresh gameplay style which will bring classes back into competition with subclassing allowing you to either be pure class builds or subclass without the need to nerf cause no one like their power being taken away in mmo's so rather than upsetting the apple cart spend the resources on something new & innovative.

Jaavaa · December 3

You can do another 1000 Posts more about removing subclassing. ZoS never removed anything what they doing in the last 11yrs.

Trejgon · December 3

fizzybeef wrote: »

But wouldnt it be more easy to just roll back subclassing ?

Even just reading the blogpost it is clear, that subclassing is not a core issue, it just made it impossible to ignore.

fizzybeef wrote: »

It was a bad idea to begin with, just roll it back and you will see the players coming back aswell.

You may see some players come back, but alot will also quit, and it will not address underlying issue for class design situation as it was just prior to subclassing release.

fizzybeef wrote: »

Way more fast and more effective then what ever is the plan now.

Faster... depends on how they handle code versioning. more effective? no, not at all.

fizzybeef wrote: »

Yes some people will complain.
But you have seen how many people already left because of what went live before

I am quite confident that ZOS has the data to judge it, and you do not.

And lastly, you really expect and MMO to just roll back the new big shiny hyped up system? That is extremely unrealistic expectation.

Class design rework is something game needed even before subclassing compounded the issues. It is really good that they have finally admitted that it needs to be done. I will be judging execution when they finish the process.

Gabriel_H · December 3

Jaavaa wrote: »

You can do another 1000 Posts more about removing subclassing. ZoS never removed anything what they doing in the last 11yrs.

Crafting items & furniture
Armour sets
Mercenary contracts
Veteran system

FullMax · December 3

What I think... Subclasses shouldn't be removed. I generally dislike any kind of content or mechanic removal.

Obtaining a multiclass has been made too easy and fast. Lore-related quests should have been added for each class, so the trainer could teach a skill.
All multiclass skills should cost more mana and stamina than the native class, making them less profitable.
I also suggest adding debuffs for classes that don't work together. For example, using the skills of a templar and a necromancer will debuff your resource regeneration.

Jaavaa · December 3

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Jaavaa wrote: »

You can do another 1000 Posts more about removing subclassing. ZoS never removed anything what they doing in the last 11yrs.

Crafting items & furniture
Armour sets
Mercenary contracts
Veteran system

Which armor sets have been removed?
Veteran System was further developed to CP System.
Mercenary Cons and Furnishing are far away from the deep changes like subclassing. Completely different world.

I stand by my opinion. They never remove it except in Vengeance.

CoronHR · December 3

subclassing is a cat that's already out of the bag -- there's no going back.

offhand i'd say perhaps giving players a buff for being pure class, or a debuff for being subclass (eg subclass skills are some percentage less powerful 10% 20% idk) might be an immediate-term fix to encourage pure class

i like how they describe their approach to the classes and i'd say they should lean into this more heavily (which it sounds like they will do so)

yeah, subclassing -- i think it will have to have a nerf-debuff applied to it, if they want to promote pure class identity. or introduce sets that buff a pure class, since they love introducing new sets, which are often big throwaway waste of content (sorry, but like 90-95% of sets are throwaway). perhap introduce a set that's similar to one that's BIS now, but with a pure-class bonus in the 5-piece