Major Savagery & Prophecy on Merciless Resolve

ketsparrowhawk

It makes sense to move the Major Savagery/Sorcery to another skill line.. Shadow is still quite dense with buff coverage and utility. However, the Assassination skill line and specifically Merciless Resolve is already on every build. No need to sweeten the deal by adding Major Savagery + Prophecy. It's way too convenient for such a volatile ability. Players are already plenty incentivized to use the Assassination skill line as well as the Shadow Skill Line. I recommend moving the Major Savagery/Sorcery to the Siphoning skill line, which could use a bit of sweetening imo.

Thanks!

Ket

MashmalloMan

I fail to see why we would incentivise using a line that has nothing to do with crit chance or damage in an attempt to force damage dealers to pick up a skill line with the majority of its function based on healing.

In the end, the skill line will be ignored, NB's will take another more useful line, and get their major prophecy/savagery the same way they did before via Scribing, potions, or Camo Hunter.

Call me crazy, but if every skill line actually focused on the intent of the role it's designed for, a lot more lines and classes would be more competitive.

I think on paper it may sound bad at first to place it there given the popularity of Assassination, but also consider they've lost 300-400 w/s damage for slotting and never using the skill.

I say this while also acknowledging Assassination and Grim Focus are still overturned, but major savagery/prophecy is not the issue. It seems nonsensical to move the buff to a place it shouldn't be when it wouldn't resolve the underlying problem, like an artificial barrier that will just be ignored.

Coming from a Sorc perspective I would absolutely love to not have to dig into 3 lines for minor force, minor prophecy, and major prophecy, just to make full use of Critical Surge, yet that's the state of the pts right now and it makes 0 sense to me. With subclassing, certain lines just don't have this problem and have much more flexibility increasing their potential.

Alchimiste1

they should have just made spectral bow AOE

Eskibidus

Merciless should also provide major berserker it's underperforming!

WildRumpus

At least in PvE content the merciless change is a straight (imo deserved) nerf by replacing the very valuable weapon/spell damage with a very easy to get named buff
Subclassed dps had no real reason to forgo assassination when it came with such massive and completely passive bonuses

ketsparrowhawk

MashmalloMan wrote: »

I fail to see why we would incentivise using a line that has nothing to do with crit chance or damage in an attempt to force damage dealers to pick up a skill line with the majority of its function based on healing.

In the end, the skill line will be ignored, NB's will take another more useful line, and get their major prophecy/savagery the same way they did before via Scribing, potions, or Camo Hunter.

Call me crazy, but if every skill line actually focused on the intent of the role it's designed for, a lot more lines and classes would be more competitive.

I think on paper it may sound bad at first to place it there given the popularity of Assassination, but also consider they've lost 300-400 w/s damage for slotting and never using the skill.

I say this while also acknowledging Assassination and Grim Focus are still overturned, but major savagery/prophecy is not the issue. It seems nonsensical to move the buff to a place it shouldn't be when it wouldn't resolve the underlying problem, like an artificial barrier that will just be ignored.

Coming from a Sorc perspective I would absolutely love to not have to dig into 3 lines for minor force, minor prophecy, and major prophecy, just to make full use of Critical Surge, yet that's the state of the pts right now and it makes 0 sense to me. With subclassing, certain lines just don't have this problem and have much more flexibility increasing their potential.

Major Prophecy is attached to skills like Lotus Blossom and Inner Light so I'm not sure your argument holds much water. Also everything in the Siphoning skill line can crit so not sure how it's irrelevant to the skill line.

Hailan

Adding major savagery and prophecy to relentless focus is a ridiculous decision. There are tons of other ways to source those buffs and make that skill a waste. It would be better to just cut the maximum weapon and spell damage in half and then buff the actual spectral arrow proc to incentivize using the physical skill.

Finedaible

I can understand why they made the change, and it even makes sense to a degree, but losing all that weapon and spell damage will be very hard to make up for. They seem to want to force players to use the bow proc to 'make up' for the damage but it's still a net loss for pure NB.

madmufffin

Savagery and prophecy doesn't move the needle at all. A lot of builds already use ardent flame because of how strong standard is and beyond that power pots and camo are extremely prominent. Doesn't move the needle at all when used in exchange of weapon/spell damage.

React

I honestly like this change. Feels far more suitable than being located on cloak, and the trade off of the WD/SD seems reasonable as a flat damage nerf since you would have been sourcing these buffs elsewhere anyways.

Finedaible

On the bright side, this change may potentially free up a skill slot, but I still don't know how you would make up for the spell/weapon dmg loss yet.

Thumbless_Bot

WildRumpus wrote: »

At least in PvE content the merciless change is a straight (imo deserved) nerf by replacing the very valuable weapon/spell damage with a very easy to get named buff
Subclassed dps had no real reason to forgo assassination when it came with such massive and completely passive bonuses

Giving a named buff to merciless means you can use soul or contingency for other named buff without using a other line or skill slot for camouflage.

This seems like a buff but that 300 or 400wd is base. In cyro with major brutality and continuous that translates to 390 or 520 lost weapon damage and you can stack wd a lot higher with medium armor, minor brutality, fighters guild.

I would also rather have the extra 400-500 wd than the named buff.

RealLoveBVB

Finedaible wrote: »

On the bright side, this change may potentially free up a skill slot, but I still don't know how you would make up for the spell/weapon dmg loss yet.

I think you are talking about Camohunter.
It's sadly not just the loss of the wd from merciless resolve, but also the wd loss with having an fighters guild skill slotted...

CameraBeardThePirate

React wrote: »

I honestly like this change. Feels far more suitable than being located on cloak, and the trade off of the WD/SD seems reasonable as a flat damage nerf since you would have been sourcing these buffs elsewhere anyways.

I agree with the sentiment, but it's odd. While it's technically a nerf, it's absolutely going to make the already high pick rate of Assassination even higher in PvP since there's only a handful of sources of Savagery/Prophecy.

Also the change to Relentless is pretty nuts. Having the bow up 20% more often means you're just going to have to assume someone can fire the bow at you at all times.

Finedaible

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Finedaible wrote: »

On the bright side, this change may potentially free up a skill slot, but I still don't know how you would make up for the spell/weapon dmg loss yet.

I think you are talking about Camohunter.
It's sadly not just the loss of the wd from merciless resolve, but also the wd loss with having an fighters guild skill slotted...

Yes, it's a lot of lost BASE weapon/spell damage, which was realistically always being buffed by brutality/sorcery so it's a much greater nerf than the devs make it out to be.

MincMincMinc

Animal already gets a source of major minor breach on a skill thats double timed aoe putting out ult level damage
Grave already gets the same with major minor defiles in an aoe
Why doesnt storm get an equivalent skill with major minor force or brittle?
Why not give major minor prophecy on merciless?

Idk throwing and tacking on every major/minor buff onto each skill is getting bloated and tiresome. Everyone in PvP atleast is getting every buff at this point with near capped stats. ZZZzzzzzzzz

Finedaible

I still think the nerf to Grim Focus was a bit too heavy handed though. For those who only used it passively, it doesn't make much sense to carry GF now when you already have Camo Hunter for the minor berserk and slayer passive. I remember the days when Grim Focus granted minor berserk passively and everyone lost their minds over it, but with this change I think it needs something more than just a proc.

YandereGirlfriend

Hailan wrote: »

Adding major savagery and prophecy to relentless focus is a ridiculous decision. There are tons of other ways to source those buffs and make that skill a waste. It would be better to just cut the maximum weapon and spell damage in half and then buff the actual spectral arrow proc to incentivize using the physical skill.

Bowproc was cracked way before they even gave it the bonus Weapon Damage. That was another one of those inexplicable (but routine) NB Golden Child buffs that other classes can only dream about. Honestly, for that nerf alone, they are lucky that there was any power compensation. Because the skill remains wickedly OP even without that.

MincMincMinc

Finedaible wrote: »

I still think the nerf to Grim Focus was a bit too heavy handed though. For those who only used it passively, it doesn't make much sense to carry GF now when you already have Camo Hunter for the minor berserk and slayer passive. I remember the days when Grim Focus granted minor berserk passively and everyone lost their minds over it, but with this change I think it needs something more than just a proc.

Maybe we shouldnt be having half of our active skill bars be taken up by passive slotted skills? Imagine if our skill bar was useful for......skills.

YandereGirlfriend

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Finedaible wrote: »

I still think the nerf to Grim Focus was a bit too heavy handed though. For those who only used it passively, it doesn't make much sense to carry GF now when you already have Camo Hunter for the minor berserk and slayer passive. I remember the days when Grim Focus granted minor berserk passively and everyone lost their minds over it, but with this change I think it needs something more than just a proc.

Maybe we shouldnt be having half of our active skill bars be taken up by passive slotted skills? Imagine if our skill bar was useful for......skills.

Cue that utopia meme with the flying cars, etc.

Well said.

Finedaible

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Finedaible wrote: »

I still think the nerf to Grim Focus was a bit too heavy handed though. For those who only used it passively, it doesn't make much sense to carry GF now when you already have Camo Hunter for the minor berserk and slayer passive. I remember the days when Grim Focus granted minor berserk passively and everyone lost their minds over it, but with this change I think it needs something more than just a proc.

Maybe we shouldnt be having half of our active skill bars be taken up by passive slotted skills? Imagine if our skill bar was useful for......skills.

Which is exactly why I proposed nuking the Slayer passive during the last round of PTS. There's too much passive power from FG skills.

MincMincMinc

Finedaible wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Finedaible wrote: »

I still think the nerf to Grim Focus was a bit too heavy handed though. For those who only used it passively, it doesn't make much sense to carry GF now when you already have Camo Hunter for the minor berserk and slayer passive. I remember the days when Grim Focus granted minor berserk passively and everyone lost their minds over it, but with this change I think it needs something more than just a proc.

Maybe we shouldnt be having half of our active skill bars be taken up by passive slotted skills? Imagine if our skill bar was useful for......skills.

Which is exactly why I proposed nuking the Slayer passive during the last round of PTS. There's too much passive power from FG skills.

Well id just start with the skill system in the game. Does every skill have a major/minor buff? Was that main purpose of the skill to be a buff skill? No, ok remove it. Somehow we went from skills having 2 parts to 3 to 4 to 5 now. Paragraph descriptions are getting so long Zos is going to have to start citing sources in the tooltips.

ketsparrowhawk

madmufffin wrote: »

Savagery and prophecy doesn't move the needle at all. A lot of builds already use ardent flame because of how strong standard is and beyond that power pots and camo are extremely prominent. Doesn't move the needle at all when used in exchange of weapon/spell damage.

It makes it so that you don't have to make any hard build decisions. No need to find a source of major prophecy and ultimately sacrifice a bar slot or a potion for it.. it's already attached to your strongest ability. No sacrifice needed. Offers too much build freedom for a build that already has the most potent damage combo available. True many people would have used Assassination anyway.. but then they would have needed to go out of their way to find a crit buff.. but no more! They have all the freedom in the world to make any build decision they want.

Major_Toughness

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Hailan wrote: »

Adding major savagery and prophecy to relentless focus is a ridiculous decision. There are tons of other ways to source those buffs and make that skill a waste. It would be better to just cut the maximum weapon and spell damage in half and then buff the actual spectral arrow proc to incentivize using the physical skill.

Bowproc was cracked way before they even gave it the bonus Weapon Damage. That was another one of those inexplicable (but routine) NB Golden Child buffs that other classes can only dream about. Honestly, for that nerf alone, they are lucky that there was any power compensation. Because the skill remains wickedly OP even without that.

Problem is the skill, and NB in general, wasn't balanced around having delayed burst. So you either blow them up instantly or not at all.

Which is why they do so well historically with instant damage procs; Caluurions, Ashen Grip, Tarnished, Hrothgar etc.

You add in Contingency and now other classes delayed burst abilities it's a no brainer to take the hardest hitting skill in the game to combo with.

I don't know the answer but this is exactly the problem we all saw coming, skills getting nerfed because they are too strong when used with Subclassing.

Aylish

The new integration into major/minor buffs of Merciless makes the skill useless as we get those buffs from everywhere including basic damage potions, which basically every DPS used.

This is not a buff at all. It kills the central identity skill of Nightblade just because of subclassing.

YandereGirlfriend

What if I told you... Bowproc was always good and never needed the 400 Weapon Damage tacked-on to begin with.

Because that's the truth.

ArctosCethlenn

Its a reasonable change, a lot of unique passive power was available just by slotting the best single target burst skill in the game. It'll still be useful, it'll still burst well in pvp, it just won't give quite as many extra free stats.

Being able to bank two (or three, depending on relentless max stacks now) bow procs to fire back to back is still idiotic though.

MashmalloMan

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

I fail to see why we would incentivise using a line that has nothing to do with crit chance or damage in an attempt to force damage dealers to pick up a skill line with the majority of its function based on healing.

In the end, the skill line will be ignored, NB's will take another more useful line, and get their major prophecy/savagery the same way they did before via Scribing, potions, or Camo Hunter.

Call me crazy, but if every skill line actually focused on the intent of the role it's designed for, a lot more lines and classes would be more competitive.

I think on paper it may sound bad at first to place it there given the popularity of Assassination, but also consider they've lost 300-400 w/s damage for slotting and never using the skill.

I say this while also acknowledging Assassination and Grim Focus are still overturned, but major savagery/prophecy is not the issue. It seems nonsensical to move the buff to a place it shouldn't be when it wouldn't resolve the underlying problem, like an artificial barrier that will just be ignored.

Coming from a Sorc perspective I would absolutely love to not have to dig into 3 lines for minor force, minor prophecy, and major prophecy, just to make full use of Critical Surge, yet that's the state of the pts right now and it makes 0 sense to me. With subclassing, certain lines just don't have this problem and have much more flexibility increasing their potential.

Major Prophecy is attached to skills like Lotus Blossom and Inner Light so I'm not sure your argument holds much water. Also everything in the Siphoning skill line can crit so not sure how it's irrelevant to the skill line.

You're referring to a pre subclassing game design decision that never made any sense. I'm speaking to the future of the game and the decision to add Major Prophecy/Savagery to Assassination this patch and your suggestion to move it where it shouldn't be.

Name 1 damage dealer using Lotus Blossum or that skill line at all after subclassing, even before subclassing it was rarely used because it's a terrible self heal and a pretty mid group heal too. It's even worse because the line doesn't have a single damage skill and honestly if Warden's didn't completely write off the line, I'm sure they'd be fighting to move it too. At this point it's been there for so long, I think most people just accept it, but I'm not sure why we would want to imitate that bad idea for other classes.

For Inner Light and Camo Hunter, those are from universal skill lines available to everyone with a mixed bag of useful skills anyone can slot on their bar for any role without needing a weapon or subclassing. That is entirely by design to help fill the gaps some classes previously had, which we now also have subclassing and Scribing for.

MashmalloMan

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

What if I told you... Bowproc was always good and never needed the 400 Weapon Damage tacked-on to begin with.

Because that's the truth.

You're entirely right. Everyone has gotten so used to saving the stacks when your target is low in favour of an execute so it has increased damage, that they forgot how well it scaled to begin with.

Mercilous Resolve deals about 310% more damage than Killer's Blade; largely considered the best execute in the game. For Killer's Blade to match +310/400%, your target needs to be at 10% HP or below.

That is insane. There is very few abilities that are still worth using that low over an execute, unless they're balanced around long durations like 20s dots or some type of major buff you need like a back bar damage enchant, and it does it in 1 hit from up to 100% HP, even more if you were using something like Storm Calling for the reverse execute passive.

Hapexamendios

Should have just left it and cut the weapon damage bonus from
30 per stack to 15 per stack.

Vaqual

It is a nerf to the maximum potential damage ceiling, as these 400 WD/SD can not be sourced without great opportunity cost. That is what needed to be done, that is what they did. I think moving Savagery/Prophecy for that to appease the masses is an OK move.