Corrosive + Subclassing: A Dangerous Combo That Needs Attention

Urzigurumash

Did anyone who thinks the defensive component should be removed use this Ult before the Hybrid DK meta?

Like every Ult is pure upside, their drawback is the short duration versus constant state of 5 piece.

Let me find this thread where I write a thesis on this Ult, any idea is likely already addressed. The numerous threads from the time likely led to the Ult Gain halting effect.

After that, the largest consistency issue with Corrosive is just that Shapeshifters Chain doesnt reduce its cost. Not that anybody would use it if it did.

Urzigurumash

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/discussion/608013/corrosive-armor-needs-a-nerf/p5

Twohothardware

Corrosive may create some interesting builds for bombers but it’s not something ball groups are going to run.

The strongest build on pts I’ve seen so far is Nightblade/Warden/Templar

Teeba_Shei

Magma shell should be the defensive option and corrosive should be the offensive. Magma shell right now is basically corrosive without the penetration. The only change needed for magma shell is to make the range on the damage shield it gives to allies larger. Corrosive is just overtuned.

Urzigurumash

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Magma shell should be the defensive option and corrosive should be the offensive. Magma shell right now is basically corrosive without the penetration. The only change needed for magma shell is to make the range on the damage shield it gives to allies larger. Corrosive is just overtuned.

Read the post at the top of my link there if you're really interested in this subject.

Nevermind lemme copy it. Since this idea has been floated a thousand times by a thousand people who didnt play StamDK prior to 21, or so I assume. But much more in that thread:

Urzigurumash

August 2022:

Let me try to be objective and talk about why this is bad for Class Identity, in the long haul, with consideration for the preservation of Class Identity through the fluctuations of the meta which are sure to come in the future:

I understand the simplicity of this idea is attractive, but in my opinion it's too binary. Part of the DK identity in PvP was always to be more tankish than the other classes but still able to deal damage - with its own limitations compared to other classes in terms of mobility, sustain out of combat, evasiveness, range, etc - things not associated with a "Knight" class. An Ult which let one be extremely tanky and deal extreme damage at once was the "Ultimate" experience for this Identity.

If Corrosive were changed to simply be a damage augmentation Ult without any defensive component, then it would no longer have any particular strength when used by a Knight that it didn't have when used by a mobile, evasive, and possibly ranged Rogue. Its power budget would have to be adjusted to account for the increased damage done by a Rogue while having no consideration for the Knight's necessity of mitigation to achieve "Ultimate" power.

That's not to say that Corrosive in its present state isn't obviously quite strong and outperforming similar Ults.

So many things have changed over the years, but not Corrosive, not by much.

Here are two big things which have changed besides Hybridization which have effected the power of this old, sub-class-defining, generally constant Ult:

- Increased access to Ult Gain. To name a few - Nord never had an innate Ult gain, there were no Ult pots, Major Heroism only existed in the Last Stand passive - which, it so happens, combined well with DK's Battle Roar and the general class theme of not retreating but fighting until the end - again like a Knight, not at all like a Rogue.

The way to balance Corrosive in light of this is to increase its cost.

- The continual increase of new integer sources of HP Regen (Sugar Skulls - compare this to the only prior Max Resource + HP Regen foods, Bergama Warning Fire and Frosted Sugar Skulls, buffed HP Regen sets, HP Regen Champion passives) led to a generally accepted indication that HP Regen should be subject to Battlespirit like Healing (fairly sound logic if HP Regen were ever going to be balanced against Healing in both PvE and PvP so long as Healing were subject to Battlespirit). Meanwhile, Vampire had been revised. Undeath now scaled to 100% health, rather than just under 50% (I think). One of the old trade-offs for the defensive advantage of Undeath was that you gave up quite a bit of HP Regen. But with the nerf to HP Regen, the change to Undeath, and most of all - the general increase in damage - as we know by some point last year I think pretty much every single spec began to run Vampire Stage 3 exclusively for the Undeath passive.

But, Vampire has a Flame Damage Taken Penalty.

Then, Corrosive got Spell Pen, and then DK's World in Ruin passive was revised to provide a Damage Done Bonus to all Flame Damage whatsoever. So everybody's a Vampire, because they take less damage than Mortals, even Flame, but point for point, anything which is Flame will do more damage to a Vampire - and DK has a Flame Damage Done passive, and of course a bunch of Flame Damage Skills.

All of the sudden, this old, unchanged, classic Ult, which for years provided unique power and identity to one of the generally regarded as least powerful sub-classes, is the single most effective non-burst Ult in the game - completely eclipsing Sleet Storm on Warden, Vamp Ult on MagPlar as was powerful there for a minute, Atro on Sorc, even Goliath on Necro.

The way to balance Corrosive in light of this while preserving the Spell Pen Hybridization on Corrosive is to remove or alter the Flame Damage Taken Penalty on Vampirism.

It's not just about Corrosive, but about balancing MagDK and Vampire in PvP in general. The same way those old racial passives - while thematic and in line with TES standards - simply had to be adjusted to allow any race to be as flexible in content as an MMO requires - so too does this thematic Vampire passive, in my opinion.

Urzigurumash

So I could remove lots of that rambling about Flame Damage (although my view hasnt changed there, remove the Vamp penalty), since thats no longer the concern but rather Subclassing

But theres more in that thread about why it's more important to be a defensive ult than offensive.

It's simply more logical to remove the OFFENSIVE component. Again we had NOTHING to combine it with but 2h, DW, and SnB skills. But I'm guessing you dont remember since you didnt play StamDK then, or am I wrong?

Times change and my views on DK are archaic. But again nobody has written more about it than me so, theres my ideas about it.

Urzigurumash

And no, Magma Shell isn't the Defensive morph. It's the Group morph. Corrosive is the solo morph.

That's how it was back in the day, since StamDKs weren't welcome in groups anyway.

Stamicka

I don't really see this happening honestly. I'm not against changing Corrosive though.

So you have to think of subclassing in terms of opportunity cost and needed buffs. Most damage dealers in PvP need a source of Major Brutality/Sorcery. Corrosive is in the Earthen Heart Skill line which gives access to Molten Armaments (Major Brutality), Fossilize, Cinder Storm, and Minor Brutality. It's not a terrible choice for the Major Brutality source skill line that most people will need.

You also have to think of its competition though: Animal Companions, Storm Calling, Herald of the Tome, Siphoning, and Aedric Spear. All of those have a skill in it that gives Major Brutality.

Earthen Heart isn't that great compared to some of those. I personally think Animal Companions will win and become the dominant Major Brutality skill line. The netch restores resources instead of taking them unlike some other options. It also purifies a negative effect, and grants the Major Brutality. Then you also get access to Shalks which is both a delayed burst skill and a source of Major and Minor Breach, all very important in PvP. Falcon's Swiftness can be a useful skill as well. The passives of Animal Companions aren't so bad either.

I just don't think Earthen Heart has what it takes to be a very common skill line, even with Corrosive. Animal Companions is just a reallllly good option. Earthen Heart won't work well as a damage or healing skill line either. Restoring Light gives Major Resolve which will be a needed buff as well as some great heals and resource restoring so it definitely can't compete with that as a healing skill line. Then as a damage skill line, Earthen Heart only has Stone fist which I never see used in PvP and Fossilize which could be useful... but it's nothing compared to a damage skill line like Assassination.

So long story short, I wouldn't worry so much. The game will probably homogenize towards all classes having Animal Companions, Assassination, and Restoring Light.

randconfig

Instead of a nerf to the ability, I wouldn't be oppose to an adjustment to the ability to give other players time to react to potential acuity + corrosive ultimate combo:

Extend the duration of the ultimate by 3 seconds, and make the penetration kick in after the first 3 seconds.

Teeba_Shei

Urzigurumash wrote: »

August 2022:

Let me try to be objective and talk about why this is bad for Class Identity, in the long haul, with consideration for the preservation of Class Identity through the fluctuations of the meta which are sure to come in the future:

I understand the simplicity of this idea is attractive, but in my opinion it's too binary. Part of the DK identity in PvP was always to be more tankish than the other classes but still able to deal damage - with its own limitations compared to other classes in terms of mobility, sustain out of combat, evasiveness, range, etc - things not associated with a "Knight" class. An Ult which let one be extremely tanky and deal extreme damage at once was the "Ultimate" experience for this Identity.

If Corrosive were changed to simply be a damage augmentation Ult without any defensive component, then it would no longer have any particular strength when used by a Knight that it didn't have when used by a mobile, evasive, and possibly ranged Rogue. Its power budget would have to be adjusted to account for the increased damage done by a Rogue while having no consideration for the Knight's necessity of mitigation to achieve "Ultimate" power.

That's not to say that Corrosive in its present state isn't obviously quite strong and outperforming similar Ults.

So many things have changed over the years, but not Corrosive, not by much.

Here are two big things which have changed besides Hybridization which have effected the power of this old, sub-class-defining, generally constant Ult:

- Increased access to Ult Gain. To name a few - Nord never had an innate Ult gain, there were no Ult pots, Major Heroism only existed in the Last Stand passive - which, it so happens, combined well with DK's Battle Roar and the general class theme of not retreating but fighting until the end - again like a Knight, not at all like a Rogue.

The way to balance Corrosive in light of this is to increase its cost.

- The continual increase of new integer sources of HP Regen (Sugar Skulls - compare this to the only prior Max Resource + HP Regen foods, Bergama Warning Fire and Frosted Sugar Skulls, buffed HP Regen sets, HP Regen Champion passives) led to a generally accepted indication that HP Regen should be subject to Battlespirit like Healing (fairly sound logic if HP Regen were ever going to be balanced against Healing in both PvE and PvP so long as Healing were subject to Battlespirit). Meanwhile, Vampire had been revised. Undeath now scaled to 100% health, rather than just under 50% (I think). One of the old trade-offs for the defensive advantage of Undeath was that you gave up quite a bit of HP Regen. But with the nerf to HP Regen, the change to Undeath, and most of all - the general increase in damage - as we know by some point last year I think pretty much every single spec began to run Vampire Stage 3 exclusively for the Undeath passive.

But, Vampire has a Flame Damage Taken Penalty.

Then, Corrosive got Spell Pen, and then DK's World in Ruin passive was revised to provide a Damage Done Bonus to all Flame Damage whatsoever. So everybody's a Vampire, because they take less damage than Mortals, even Flame, but point for point, anything which is Flame will do more damage to a Vampire - and DK has a Flame Damage Done passive, and of course a bunch of Flame Damage Skills.

All of the sudden, this old, unchanged, classic Ult, which for years provided unique power and identity to one of the generally regarded as least powerful sub-classes, is the single most effective non-burst Ult in the game - completely eclipsing Sleet Storm on Warden, Vamp Ult on MagPlar as was powerful there for a minute, Atro on Sorc, even Goliath on Necro.

The way to balance Corrosive in light of this while preserving the Spell Pen Hybridization on Corrosive is to remove or alter the Flame Damage Taken Penalty on Vampirism.

It's not just about Corrosive, but about balancing MagDK and Vampire in PvP in general. The same way those old racial passives - while thematic and in line with TES standards - simply had to be adjusted to allow any race to be as flexible in content as an MMO requires - so too does this thematic Vampire passive, in my opinion.

Everything you're bringing up relates to the game's history, but it's not relevant to the current balance discussion. The game is balanced around its present state—not how it used to be. You're not engaging with the current systems, and much of what you're mentioning doesn't apply to the way the game functions today.

Urzigurumash

I agree with Stamicka, that's my impression. I'll take Aedric Spear over Restoring though and make up the healing and Resolve with scribing. (You can even make a better Hasty Prayer with scribing but for the 12% passive)

If Corrosive and Standard switched places, then it might be an issue.

Teeba_Shei

Urzigurumash wrote: »

And no, Magma Shell isn't the Defensive morph. It's the Group morph. Corrosive is the solo morph.

That's how it was back in the day, since StamDKs weren't welcome in groups anyway.

You continue to reframe and misinterpret everything I say. I never said that Magma Shell is currently labeled as the “defensive morph” — I was saying that it should be the defensive option. The problem is that Corrosive is providing both offense and defense, while Magma Shell feels like Corrosive without the penetration, which makes it objectively weaker in most scenarios.

Framing it as “group vs. solo” doesn’t address the imbalance I brought up. Corrosive gives full penetration and makes you incredibly tanky. Magma Shell, even as the so-called “group morph,” has a small-radius shield that isn’t impactful enough to justify picking it over Corrosive. That’s why I suggested a range increase to better define it as the defensive/group utility option, while Corrosive should remain the offensive option and lose the damage reduction.

The issue isn’t what the morphs are called—it’s how they function in practice.

Twohothardware

Urzigurumash wrote: »

I agree with Stamicka, that's my impression. I'll take Aedric Spear over Restoring though and make up the healing and Resolve with scribing. (You can even make a better Hasty Prayer with scribing but for the 12% passive)

If Corrosive and Standard switched places, then it might be an issue.

It's the cleanse that makes Restoring really strong 1v1.

Urzigurumash

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

And no, Magma Shell isn't the Defensive morph. It's the Group morph. Corrosive is the solo morph.

That's how it was back in the day, since StamDKs weren't welcome in groups anyway.

You continue to reframe and misinterpret everything I say. I never said that Magma Shell is currently labeled as the “defensive morph” — I was saying that it should be the defensive option. The problem is that Corrosive is providing both offense and defense, while Magma Shell feels like Corrosive without the penetration, which makes it objectively weaker in most scenarios.

Framing it as “group vs. solo” doesn’t address the imbalance I brought up. Corrosive gives full penetration and makes you incredibly tanky. Magma Shell, even as the so-called “group morph,” has a small-radius shield that isn’t impactful enough to justify picking it over Corrosive. That’s why I suggested a range increase to better define it as the defensive/group utility option, while Corrosive should remain the offensive option and lose the damage reduction.

The issue isn’t what the morphs are called—it’s how they function in practice.

Ok well you havent addressed my central argument in what I pasted. Nobody ever has, but when most everyone agrees the Ult they never used before its 2022 and 2023 meta should be great for ranged ganking and not for melee attrition, what can I say. Hope the Devs see my point.

Teeba_Shei

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

And no, Magma Shell isn't the Defensive morph. It's the Group morph. Corrosive is the solo morph.

That's how it was back in the day, since StamDKs weren't welcome in groups anyway.

You continue to reframe and misinterpret everything I say. I never said that Magma Shell is currently labeled as the “defensive morph” — I was saying that it should be the defensive option. The problem is that Corrosive is providing both offense and defense, while Magma Shell feels like Corrosive without the penetration, which makes it objectively weaker in most scenarios.

Framing it as “group vs. solo” doesn’t address the imbalance I brought up. Corrosive gives full penetration and makes you incredibly tanky. Magma Shell, even as the so-called “group morph,” has a small-radius shield that isn’t impactful enough to justify picking it over Corrosive. That’s why I suggested a range increase to better define it as the defensive/group utility option, while Corrosive should remain the offensive option and lose the damage reduction.

The issue isn’t what the morphs are called—it’s how they function in practice.

Ok well you havent addressed my central argument in what I pasted. Nobody ever has, but when most everyone agrees the Ult they never used before its 2022 and 2023 meta should be great for ranged ganking and not for melee attrition, what can I say. Hope the Devs see my point.

I agree—Corrosive definitely feels like it needs a nerf. And you’re right that your core point hasn’t really been addressed: the ultimate was never intended to be a go-to for melee attrition fights, yet that’s exactly how it’s being used now because it offers so much offensive and defensive power with no trade-off. It’s clearly overperforming outside its original purpose, and I hope the devs take a closer look too.

xylena_lazarow

Nobody is going to care about the occasional Corrosive when they're being slammed by 20k spectral bows every few seconds in between trying to deal with Rushing Agony automation turning the battlefield upside down.

HelloPlayers

React wrote: »

I don't know that I agree with the "ball groups will abuse it" sentiment, as I'm sure there are much better and more efficient options than spamming corrosives and gimping their ult gen.

That said, I do think corrosive should be changed to a purely offensive ult. Remove the defensive aspect entirely and buff the DOT portion substantially. If people want a defensive ult, they can take the magma shell morph.

I mostly agree that Corrosive should be reworked into a fully offensive ultimate, with magma shell serving as the defensive counterpart. The current hybrid design just muddies both roles.

However, I disagree with the idea of buffing the DoT — the value of Corrosive already lies in its penetration and uptime, and adding a stronger DoT on top would tip it into overtuned territory, especially in PvP.

Also, I have to push back on the claim that ball groups won’t abuse it. They absolutely will. Corrosive provides massive offensive pressure while also making you completely invincible — it’s not just a damage tool, it’s a survivability crutch during an offensive push. That’s incredibly appealing to organized groups. Even with a higher ult cost, being able to dive a stack with immunity and melt targets due to the penetration is well worth it for them. Saying they’d avoid it to “preserve ult gen” underestimates how much value they get from that temporary invincibility during high-lethality bursts.

React

HelloPlayers wrote: »

However, I disagree with the idea of buffing the DoT — the value of Corrosive already lies in its penetration and uptime, and adding a stronger DoT on top would tip it into overtuned territory, especially in PvP.

It's a PBAoE dot, it's not particularly strong to begin with. If you took away the defensive portion without buffing the PBAoE dot it becomes a worse skill than berserker's rage, and typically most people agree that class abilities should be stronger than weapon skill counterparts. I don't see why buffing the PBAoE in exchange for the removal of the mitigation would be problematic.

HelloPlayers wrote: »

Also, I have to push back on the claim that ball groups won’t abuse it. They absolutely will. Corrosive provides massive offensive pressure while also making you completely invincible — it’s not just a damage tool, it’s a survivability crutch during an offensive push. That’s incredibly appealing to organized groups. Even with a higher ult cost, being able to dive a stack with immunity and melt targets due to the penetration is well worth it for them. Saying they’d avoid it to “preserve ult gen” underestimates how much value they get from that temporary invincibility during high-lethality bursts.

They're already invincible, they don't need corrosive to get there. The earthen heart skill line is also a terrible choice for a ball group DD, offering nothing of value whatsoever in it's passives or active skills. I am positive the min-max ballgroups will come up with drastically more stat dense setups utilizing other skill lines.

HelloPlayers

React wrote: »

HelloPlayers wrote: »

However, I disagree with the idea of buffing the DoT — the value of Corrosive already lies in its penetration and uptime, and adding a stronger DoT on top would tip it into overtuned territory, especially in PvP.

It's a PBAoE dot, it's not particularly strong to begin with. If you took away the defensive portion without buffing the PBAoE dot it becomes a worse skill than berserker's rage, and typically most people agree that class abilities should be stronger than weapon skill counterparts. I don't see why buffing the PBAoE in exchange for the removal of the mitigation would be problematic.

HelloPlayers wrote: »

Also, I have to push back on the claim that ball groups won’t abuse it. They absolutely will. Corrosive provides massive offensive pressure while also making you completely invincible — it’s not just a damage tool, it’s a survivability crutch during an offensive push. That’s incredibly appealing to organized groups. Even with a higher ult cost, being able to dive a stack with immunity and melt targets due to the penetration is well worth it for them. Saying they’d avoid it to “preserve ult gen” underestimates how much value they get from that temporary invincibility during high-lethality bursts.

They're already invincible, they don't need corrosive to get there. The earthen heart skill line is also a terrible choice for a ball group DD, offering nothing of value whatsoever in it's passives or active skills. I am positive the min-max ballgroups will come up with drastically more stat dense setups utilizing other skill lines.

I've already seen the ball groups talking about using corrosive because the only thing that threatens good ball groups are other ball groups and corrosive removes the threat.

Urzigurumash

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

And no, Magma Shell isn't the Defensive morph. It's the Group morph. Corrosive is the solo morph.

That's how it was back in the day, since StamDKs weren't welcome in groups anyway.

You continue to reframe and misinterpret everything I say. I never said that Magma Shell is currently labeled as the “defensive morph” — I was saying that it should be the defensive option. The problem is that Corrosive is providing both offense and defense, while Magma Shell feels like Corrosive without the penetration, which makes it objectively weaker in most scenarios.

Framing it as “group vs. solo” doesn’t address the imbalance I brought up. Corrosive gives full penetration and makes you incredibly tanky. Magma Shell, even as the so-called “group morph,” has a small-radius shield that isn’t impactful enough to justify picking it over Corrosive. That’s why I suggested a range increase to better define it as the defensive/group utility option, while Corrosive should remain the offensive option and lose the damage reduction.

The issue isn’t what the morphs are called—it’s how they function in practice.

Ok well you havent addressed my central argument in what I pasted. Nobody ever has, but when most everyone agrees the Ult they never used before its 2022 and 2023 meta should be great for ranged ganking and not for melee attrition, what can I say. Hope the Devs see my point.

I agree—Corrosive definitely feels like it needs a nerf. And you’re right that your core point hasn’t really been addressed: the ultimate was never intended to be a go-to for melee attrition fights, yet that’s exactly how it’s being used now because it offers so much offensive and defensive power with no trade-off. It’s clearly overperforming outside its original purpose, and I hope the devs take a closer look too.

Thats nice, looks like a buncha other SorcPlarBlades agree with you. Literally find me 1 single day 1 StamDK that does? I dont think any of you understand the essence of the class, and are obsessed with this simple, shallow, mechanical dichotomy without regard for the Poison Knight theme originated in 2016 by the then new Noxious Breath, Venomous Claw, and the then newly converted to Poison Corrosive Armor.

To me it always seemed like the PC SorcBlade main crowd on this forum never really understood StamDK, so they ranked it D Tier until the class was overbuffed into a Flame-damage burst monster that it still is today.

Xbox is a slightly different game, breaking free in .5s is a maybe not a definite, firing Leap was a BIG maybe around 2018 thru 2020 (then it literally did not work in Imp City), etc, so maybe it really never did work on PC like it did for us in the more chaotic, lower awareness (no add ons) environment.

Urzigurumash

But I appreciate the debate and dissent, and I hereby retire from writing any new advocacy for the Defensive component of Corrosive.

Delete the 100k pen or limit it to melee range, buff the PBAoE instead. Think Vamp Ult and Goliath rather than Onslaught.

On that subject give us back the Ult Restore Onslaught. Now that was a true Burst Ult for StamDK (cuz of Battle Roar), and it was a clear differentiator from MagDK. And unlike the All Offense Corrosive this Forum wants, it didnt work with a bow.

Urzigurumash

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

And no, Magma Shell isn't the Defensive morph. It's the Group morph. Corrosive is the solo morph.

That's how it was back in the day, since StamDKs weren't welcome in groups anyway.

You continue to reframe and misinterpret everything I say. I never said that Magma Shell is currently labeled as the “defensive morph” — I was saying that it should be the defensive option. The problem is that Corrosive is providing both offense and defense, while Magma Shell feels like Corrosive without the penetration, which makes it objectively weaker in most scenarios.

Framing it as “group vs. solo” doesn’t address the imbalance I brought up. Corrosive gives full penetration and makes you incredibly tanky. Magma Shell, even as the so-called “group morph,” has a small-radius shield that isn’t impactful enough to justify picking it over Corrosive. That’s why I suggested a range increase to better define it as the defensive/group utility option, while Corrosive should remain the offensive option and lose the damage reduction.

The issue isn’t what the morphs are called—it’s how they function in practice.

Ok well you havent addressed my central argument in what I pasted. Nobody ever has, but when most everyone agrees the Ult they never used before its 2022 and 2023 meta should be great for ranged ganking and not for melee attrition, what can I say. Hope the Devs see my point.

I agree—Corrosive definitely feels like it needs a nerf. And you’re right that your core point hasn’t really been addressed: the ultimate was never intended to be a go-to for melee attrition fights, yet that’s exactly how it’s being used now because it offers so much offensive and defensive power with no trade-off. It’s clearly overperforming outside its original purpose, and I hope the devs take a closer look too.

Ok one last essay, yes I agree with this. You are right, it was never the go to under ideal scenarios in OW when things are in the DKs favor, Leap was, of course. Corrosive was the backbar survival crutch that became the offensive go to under limited cases, like dueling where your Leap will surely be blocked by a good opponent, wailing on an OW block tank, and the big one

1vXing

Cuz even in eras when sDK was unpopular, it was a strong 1vXer by those who knew the class and were able to succeed on account of, among other things

1. patience
2. Corrosive's combined offensive defensive nature

I'll say though that I am not actually opposed to GankBowRogueKnight (the kind that appeals to the "we hate tanks" SorcBlades). One thing the new BGs has shown us is how newer PvPers like to play, and I see BowKnights, and I ALSO see a an uptick in old school Dizzy Swing DKs, and thankfully not too many run a Vat Ice Staff backbar.

And to give credence to my ideas, I should say in full candor I did in fact retire from DK after Hybridization. Partly cuz it became a 2 button spam class for noobs (esp after jabs nerf), partly cuz better players now played DK and I didnt like them killing my 5 Star and possibly getting that achievement on their new toon back before AwA, but mostly simply cuz it was time for new horizons, for the Thief and the Mage.

But since my old spec seems rare among ForumLords, I like to hold the line on this one niche idea, to preserve some memory of the old ways of the Akaviri Martial Tradition, because of course we all know that

Everything with a form will crumble away

Artisian0001

HelloPlayers wrote: »

React wrote: »

HelloPlayers wrote: »

However, I disagree with the idea of buffing the DoT — the value of Corrosive already lies in its penetration and uptime, and adding a stronger DoT on top would tip it into overtuned territory, especially in PvP.

It's a PBAoE dot, it's not particularly strong to begin with. If you took away the defensive portion without buffing the PBAoE dot it becomes a worse skill than berserker's rage, and typically most people agree that class abilities should be stronger than weapon skill counterparts. I don't see why buffing the PBAoE in exchange for the removal of the mitigation would be problematic.

HelloPlayers wrote: »

Also, I have to push back on the claim that ball groups won’t abuse it. They absolutely will. Corrosive provides massive offensive pressure while also making you completely invincible — it’s not just a damage tool, it’s a survivability crutch during an offensive push. That’s incredibly appealing to organized groups. Even with a higher ult cost, being able to dive a stack with immunity and melt targets due to the penetration is well worth it for them. Saying they’d avoid it to “preserve ult gen” underestimates how much value they get from that temporary invincibility during high-lethality bursts.

They're already invincible, they don't need corrosive to get there. The earthen heart skill line is also a terrible choice for a ball group DD, offering nothing of value whatsoever in it's passives or active skills. I am positive the min-max ballgroups will come up with drastically more stat dense setups utilizing other skill lines.

I've already seen the ball groups talking about using corrosive because the only thing that threatens good ball groups are other ball groups and corrosive removes the threat.

I have seen this as well, people here are underestimating how strong this is in groups that take it seriously. I agree with React, corrosive should be a purely offensive option, buffing the dot portion is fine, maybe even make it somewhat viable for PvE somehow, but making you invincible basically and able to do that much damage is just unbalanced for PvP. Magma should get a range buff on the shield as well as maybe some other unique buff as long as the shield persists. Either way the corrosive morph is too strong for the upcoming patch.

Cooperharley

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

There are several threads incoming like this, once the update is live.
The game will sink in Chaos the next months, till they nerf everything to the ground.

Yea that's the problem. Look at a game like WoW that does rolling hotfixes and combat tuning every couple of weeks. We're basically stuck with what we have now until U47 FOR 3 MONTHS

Artisian0001

Cooperharley wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

There are several threads incoming like this, once the update is live.
The game will sink in Chaos the next months, till they nerf everything to the ground.

Yea that's the problem. Look at a game like WoW that does rolling hotfixes and combat tuning every couple of weeks. We're basically stuck with what we have now until U47 FOR 3 MONTHS

Yes this is a huge part of the problem, the lack of updates even when things are "game breaking." I say this lightly because they don't necessarily have to break the game, but they can be extremely strong, to the point they shouldn't be allowed, or even things that don't interact properly and cause issues and these issues still sometimes take an extended period of time to be addressed and people are basically told to just live with it for a period of time. Corrosive is going to be one of these issues next patch when it drops and the people who have had issue with ballgroups are going to see that they were in paradise compared to what will happen when a nightblade can pop corrosive and hit a 30k bow while also sitting in a flaming oil

Teeba_Shei

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Cooperharley wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

There are several threads incoming like this, once the update is live.
The game will sink in Chaos the next months, till they nerf everything to the ground.

Yea that's the problem. Look at a game like WoW that does rolling hotfixes and combat tuning every couple of weeks. We're basically stuck with what we have now until U47 FOR 3 MONTHS

Yes this is a huge part of the problem, the lack of updates even when things are "game breaking." I say this lightly because they don't necessarily have to break the game, but they can be extremely strong, to the point they shouldn't be allowed, or even things that don't interact properly and cause issues and these issues still sometimes take an extended period of time to be addressed and people are basically told to just live with it for a period of time. Corrosive is going to be one of these issues next patch when it drops and the people who have had issue with ballgroups are going to see that they were in paradise compared to what will happen when a nightblade can pop corrosive and hit a 30k bow while also sitting in a flaming oil

Absolutely, I agree with the concern about Corrosive—it's poised to be a major issue if it goes live without proper balancing. Giving a Nightblade the ability to ignore armor with Corrosive and then stack that with a 30k bow proc is a recipe for broken gameplay. It takes an already strong burst class and turns it into something oppressive, especially in large group engagements where positioning and survival should actually matter.

Urzigurumash

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Cooperharley wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

There are several threads incoming like this, once the update is live.
The game will sink in Chaos the next months, till they nerf everything to the ground.

Yea that's the problem. Look at a game like WoW that does rolling hotfixes and combat tuning every couple of weeks. We're basically stuck with what we have now until U47 FOR 3 MONTHS

Yes this is a huge part of the problem, the lack of updates even when things are "game breaking." I say this lightly because they don't necessarily have to break the game, but they can be extremely strong, to the point they shouldn't be allowed, or even things that don't interact properly and cause issues and these issues still sometimes take an extended period of time to be addressed and people are basically told to just live with it for a period of time. Corrosive is going to be one of these issues next patch when it drops and the people who have had issue with ballgroups are going to see that they were in paradise compared to what will happen when a nightblade can pop corrosive and hit a 30k bow while also sitting in a flaming oil

Absolutely, I agree with the concern about Corrosive—it's poised to be a major issue if it goes live without proper balancing. Giving a Nightblade the ability to ignore armor with Corrosive and then stack that with a 30k bow proc is a recipe for broken gameplay. It takes an already strong burst class and turns it into something oppressive, especially in large group engagements where positioning and survival should actually matter.

That's exactly what I've been saying. It's core function in the overall DK experience is the Defense, the more exploitatable function is the Offense. Like somebody said the ballgroups dont need the Defense anyway, so why give them the Offense?

It's now probably time to disregard the idea of the overall DK experience and instead think of Earthern Heart as a portable module. Right?

While I think it's true the metagame Xv1 playstyle will find more exploitable modules than E.H. and thus leave out Corrosive, I also think the DoT focused, "slow and heavy" 1vX Tank, like an old school StamDK, will find better modules than E.H. As others have suggested, the closest analogy to Corrosive also comes with an excellent Defensive line, it's the one I like the best now, and it's Green, like an old school StamDK.

So exactly what should this Ult do in this new forthcoming environment?

How would it best promote the incorporation of EH as a set of skills into a coherent and balanced playstyle?

Artisian0001

Just make it give then pen and nothing else, or if you really want it to do both give it 3% max hp damage and 5k unique pen, anything more than that is absurd.

Teeba_Shei

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Just make it give then pen and nothing else, or if you really want it to do both give it 3% max hp damage and 5k unique pen, anything more than that is absurd.

Totally on board with this. If Corrosive is going to serve a dual purpose, it needs to do so within reason. Right now, it’s overloaded to the point where it steps on the toes of actual offensive ults like Leap and Standard while still offering tank-level durability—that’s where the problem lies.

A flat 5k unique pen is already a strong offensive utility for a “defensive” ult. That way, it can still help close out fights over time without letting you bulldoze through mitigation and bypass all the decision-making that offensive ults are supposed to require.

Stripping it back like that keeps Corrosive as a tool for attrition-based pressure—not burst, not cheese, just reliable, role-appropriate performance. Anything more, and it's just enabling lazy builds and unhealthy metas.