Arcanist was a mistake, you are slowly killing your endgame Zos

Ezhh

twisttop138 wrote: »

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

My main problem with arcanist is that it completely demolishes the learning curve that previously lead players into harder content. I really don't want to sound like the back in my days kind of person, but before arcanist was a thing, players were gaining power relatively slowly, and while doing that they had a chance to go through older group content and learn the basics. Now we got bunch of players that got very strong very fast due to their builds and can burn through some content while standing in red beaming and without giving it a thought. This kind of "accessibility" (I hate this term used in this context...) is making a lot of players happy, but imo it is not good for the (end) game in the long term. All it does is producing all-powerfull players that fail basic mechs in harder trials, because that's where they actually need to pay attention to them for the first time. Not to mention that the attempts on transition from arca to any kind of high APM build without previous experience with one usually ends.... well, underwhelming 😉 If that's not an awful design choice, then I don't know what is. ZOS decimated endgame with U35 and proceed to filling it back with players that can only play arca. It's not a fix, it's a cover. And subclassing will only exacerbate the issue.

This sounds like a raid lead issue. When I stand in stupid or fail a mechanic or cause a wipe my lead lets me know. In group chat. He explains what I messed up and I do my best to not repeat. Even though I play Arc when I'm on DPS, I don't stand in stupid and beam because you'll die that way. Maybe in a normal trial or dungeon you could do that, I guess and that's what you mean? But come on with the every person that plays arc eats paste and doesn't belong in MY endgame stuff.

I'm not sure how it's a raid lead issue if the arc can simply eat up more damage (shield beam) without dying or stand further back (and therefore not need to learn how to deal with certain parts of the stupid that melee classes generally have to contend with) and so on. If you didn't die because arc's advantages kept you safe, there's nothing for the RL to pick up on. You played perfectly fine.... as an arc. The issue is some of these players then try to transition to a high cpm melee class that has fewer defenses and must navigate more of the stupid and suddenly there's all kinds of problems they never had to learn to handle.

Yes, there's a load of good arc players too that these issues don't apply to, but I've seen plenty of examples where it's definitely a real thing. The difference in some people's survivability is huge based on whether they play arc or something else.

twisttop138

Ezhh wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

My main problem with arcanist is that it completely demolishes the learning curve that previously lead players into harder content. I really don't want to sound like the back in my days kind of person, but before arcanist was a thing, players were gaining power relatively slowly, and while doing that they had a chance to go through older group content and learn the basics. Now we got bunch of players that got very strong very fast due to their builds and can burn through some content while standing in red beaming and without giving it a thought. This kind of "accessibility" (I hate this term used in this context...) is making a lot of players happy, but imo it is not good for the (end) game in the long term. All it does is producing all-powerfull players that fail basic mechs in harder trials, because that's where they actually need to pay attention to them for the first time. Not to mention that the attempts on transition from arca to any kind of high APM build without previous experience with one usually ends.... well, underwhelming 😉 If that's not an awful design choice, then I don't know what is. ZOS decimated endgame with U35 and proceed to filling it back with players that can only play arca. It's not a fix, it's a cover. And subclassing will only exacerbate the issue.

This sounds like a raid lead issue. When I stand in stupid or fail a mechanic or cause a wipe my lead lets me know. In group chat. He explains what I messed up and I do my best to not repeat. Even though I play Arc when I'm on DPS, I don't stand in stupid and beam because you'll die that way. Maybe in a normal trial or dungeon you could do that, I guess and that's what you mean? But come on with the every person that plays arc eats paste and doesn't belong in MY endgame stuff.

I'm not sure how it's a raid lead issue if the arc can simply eat up more damage (shield beam) without dying or stand further back (and therefore not need to learn how to deal with certain parts of the stupid that melee classes generally have to contend with) and so on. If you didn't die because arc's advantages kept you safe, there's nothing for the RL to pick up on. You played perfectly fine.... as an arc. The issue is some of these players then try to transition to a high cpm melee class that has fewer defenses and must navigate more of the stupid and suddenly there's all kinds of problems they never had to learn to handle.

Yes, there's a load of good arc players too that these issues don't apply to, but I've seen plenty of examples where it's definitely a real thing. The difference in some people's survivability is huge based on whether they play arc or something else.

I totally see where you're coming dude. I meant more of your lead should be calling you out for standing in stupid and not performing mechanics. I get that you're saying that the arc can just do that but I disagree. I can think of multiple times in vet trials where my bad positioning or standing in red has killed me. Or my failure to execute mechanics has wiped the group. Now to be sure, I'm no 1% player. Maybe they can do that. I can't think of many instances that arc beginners were able to face tank damage or survive bet or hm mechanics that would wipe other classes. I'm not so arrogant to say it couldn't happen but it's not my experience.

Edit. Missed the part where you said stand further back. You do make a good point there.

sarahthes

Twohothardware wrote: »

Arcanist beam probably deserves some further adjustment but them catering to the .1% crowd that want harder hard mode trials content is where we got update 35 that saw a huge player drop off. The average ESO player is perfectly fine with buffs. They're not at all okay with nerfs.

Update 35 was not catering to endgame. It was universally reviled by endgame, and is why we lost so many content creators and resources, not to mention just plain lost players.

JustLovely

U35 is what killed end game, just as one of the famous content creators that's no longer with us said it would.

Arcanist isn't what's killed/killing end game. It's bad updates, lack of balance, zero attention to problematic sets like RoA, poor communication that's more of a "take it or leave" it proposition from devs etc..

sarahthes

JustLovely wrote: »

U35 is what killed end game, just as one of the famous content creators that's no longer with us said it would.

Arcanist isn't what's killed/killing end game. It's bad updates, lack of balance, zero attention to problematic sets like RoA, poor communication that's more of a "take it or leave" it proposition from devs etc..

Endgame was actually slowly growing, until this patch. I personally don't mind power creep or any of those things. What does bother me is the prospect of another mass exodus, because my opinion on the changes isn't the only one. Some good communication from ZOS would go a long way.

alpha_synuclein

sarahthes wrote: »

At the level I play at, we joke about the rare parse arcanist because nobody wants to play them and they're often the last spots filled on a roster.

Either they transition to other classes or they just don't come to endgame idk.

At the level we play (I am assuming trial HM's and tris, right?) this is true, but I was talking about what happens before that. Players that want to be in the top 1% will get there no matter what the game throw at them. But I do have a feeling (I'd rather have numbers, but it's not gonna happen...) that for most the transition is much more difficult if you've started the game with arca and it's playstyle is the only thing you are used to.

alpha_synuclein

twisttop138 wrote: »

But come on with the every person that plays arc eats paste and doesn't belong in MY endgame stuff.

If you tend to discard every critique towards arcanist as some form of elitism, it says more about your mindset than my post.

twisttop138 wrote: »

This sounds like a raid lead issue. When I stand in stupid or fail a mechanic or cause a wipe my lead lets me know. In group chat. He explains what I messed up and I do my best to not repeat. Even though I play Arc when I'm on DPS, I don't stand in stupid and beam because you'll die that way. Maybe in a normal trial or dungeon you could do that, I guess and that's what you mean? But come on with the every person that plays arc eats paste and doesn't belong in MY endgame stuff.

And sure, the quality of raid leading can be an issue, especially if it only happens through the game chat, but this is not the issue I was pointing at. I spend decent amount of time leading training raids for players that were dipping their toes in vet trials and further, and what I am describing is coming from what I observed so far. The fact that you seem to be the exception (everyone is when they are trying to make a point 😉 ) doesn't disprove my observations. I also played arc quite a lot as a DD. And comparing to the classes I have played before, it is extremely more survivable and, in earlier trials especially, allows you to keep making mistakes that in later trials will either kill you or lead to a wipe. Eating damage unnecessarily, bad positioning, not prioritising most important targets, etc are all very basic things that you need to pay waaaay less attention when you play arca.

twisttop138

Edit double post.

twisttop138

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

But come on with the every person that plays arc eats paste and doesn't belong in MY endgame stuff.

If you tend to discard every critique towards arcanist as some form of elitism, it says more about your mindset than my post.

twisttop138 wrote: »

This sounds like a raid lead issue. When I stand in stupid or fail a mechanic or cause a wipe my lead lets me know. In group chat. He explains what I messed up and I do my best to not repeat. Even though I play Arc when I'm on DPS, I don't stand in stupid and beam because you'll die that way. Maybe in a normal trial or dungeon you could do that, I guess and that's what you mean? But come on with the every person that plays arc eats paste and doesn't belong in MY endgame stuff.

And sure, the quality of raid leading can be an issue, especially if it only happens through the game chat, but this is not the issue I was pointing at. I spend decent amount of time leading training raids for players that were dipping their toes in vet trials and further, and what I am describing is coming from what I observed so far. The fact that you seem to be the exception (everyone is when they are trying to make a point 😉 ) doesn't disprove my observations. I also played arc quite a lot as a DD. And comparing to the classes I have played before, it is extremely more survivable and, in earlier trials especially, allows you to keep making mistakes that in later trials will either kill you or lead to a wipe. Eating damage unnecessarily, bad positioning, not prioritising most important targets, etc are all very basic things that you need to pay waaaay less attention when you play arca.

You know I thought a lot about that post last night. I agree you make good points man. I tried to pay extra attention in my guilds run of vSE last night. Looking at my positioning in terms of damage taken. Getting hit by wam vs what others took for example. (You're right, everyone's the exception when they want to make a good argument. I'm not a terribly good player but not terrible) I tried to beam from a place where I would get hit more and see what damage others were taking. While it's not scientific, I take your point. I wasn't calling you out for being elitest, more of a general point that it gets old to constantly hear that people play the class to cheese, or because they couldnt play other classes. I get that wasn't your point. Idk man, maybe it's cause I really have a desire to move into that harder content that I try to be on point and follow instructions that it feels different for me, that I hear these arguments and don't wanna accept them. I concede though that maybe it's just cause Arc has allowed me to progress into content after I returned from a long break and if I was on a different class maybe I wouldnt be able to. Idk. Arc is my only DPS class as I'm learning to tank. I think it's funner then dps. Good on you though for raid leading beginners. I am very lucky to have found guilds with just that, and it's helped me a lot. It's also helped a lot of friends. It can't be easy.

Veinblood1965

SpaceElf wrote: »

Not sure why Arcanist is a 'mistake'; class hardly matters when it comes to building and/or decorating a house.

SpaceElf you are incorrect. When you bring your Arcanist into your home and have several Moonlit Mirrors set up in sequence you can beam into one mirror which then reflects off that mirror into the next and so on and so on and if you have enough mirrors it's one darn great light show. Try it!

The Arc is Op though, if you beam into a mirror for too long the mirrors shatter. It's such a pain picking up all the pieces.