Subclassing and Older Content

cptscotty

With the introduction of subclassing and huge amount of power creep it is introducing, what is being done to make older hard mode content still relevant? Or is this an attempt to make only the newer content relevant and difficult in the hopes to drive more sales to the newer content like other MMO's do?

One of the big selling features of ESO has always been that there is a ton of content to do because all of the older vet trials and hard modes are still fairly difficult and kept at the same power/gear level. This seems like it will be going out the window if even heavy attack builds are hitting 135k+ dps.

Will there finally be some more nerfs to the pts? Or are we having to wait till a certain amount of pre-sales before its announced? Or will the dps be kept high but the content health pools be raised to compensate?

We already skip through a ton of normal/vet content by completely out-dpsing the mechanics making it grindy, boring, and cause the majority of the community to have these weird insane requirements to join groups. If we do that with the last bit of hard content it will have the same effect.

Has there been any announcement on how this problem will be tackled?

sarahthes

They nerfed the health of all trial bosses by 10% during update 35.

They should buff it back.

Surely this will fix the problem.

ADarklore

There IS NOT a 'huge amount of power creep'. There are some min/maxers who are using certain combinations to gain higher yields, but this does not impact the overwhelming majority of players... unless they choose to follow the min/maxers, and then, it's on them. Why should players who don't follow the min/maxers be penalized to compensate for those who do?!?

Erickson9610

Hard Mode content is made to appeal to the meta players. Let that content remain hard. Veteran Mode content is made to appeal to above average players, and Normal Mode content is made to appeal to everyone else. You can use off meta sets and skills in Normal and sometimes even Veteran (if you're skilled at it) because those modes are balanced around players playing the way they want as long as they follow the mechanics of the content they're running.

Just, don't increase the difficulty so that you now have to be chasing the meta to get into Veteran Mode. We're not all going to be Subclassing for all content in the game, but we should be required to follow the meta (even if it involves Subclassing) for future Hard Mode content, because that's the purpose of Hard Mode — to be the hardest challenge available in the game to players. To be able to coast through Hard Mode content without following the meta is nonsense.

cptscotty

ADarklore wrote: »

There IS NOT a 'huge amount of power creep'. There are some min/maxers who are using certain combinations to gain higher yields, but this does not impact the overwhelming majority of players... unless they choose to follow the min/maxers, and then, it's on them. Why should players who don't follow the min/maxers be penalized to compensate for those who do?!?

We are talking about the hardest part of the game...that is the context here.

If you have casual heavy attack builds hitting nearly 140k dps right now that is a huge power gain...that doesnt even include the 170k-200k+ dps parses coming out right now that min/maxers are doing. So yes...that is a huge power increase and thus trivializing all current hard mode content to the same point all Vet content is currently trivialized due to the current power creep issue.

AlterBlika

They've never adjusted content after u35. For some reason they're fine with content older than 2-3 years at best being completely brain dead.

cptscotty

AlterBlika wrote: »

They've never adjusted content after u35. For some reason they're fine with content older than 2-3 years at best being completely brain dead.

Thats my concern with this current new update. So much content is about to become trivial. These are huge power increases that are coming.

What gets concerning is the current way of fixing the problem with nerfs is that it will nerf a skill or a set because of subclassing, but then in order to get back to normal/competitive levels it will force people to subclass. Example is the Pillagers nerf. The nerf on paper makes sense because with subclassing you can go insane on ult-gen...but if you dont choose to subclass well then you just took a huge hit to the point its almost worthless to wear the set...thus encouraging you to subclass if not forcing you to if you want to continue with that set.

Seems like there needs to be a nerfing system in place that is just for subclassing in the same way there is a nerfing system in place for just pvp environments.

SaintJohnHM

cptscotty wrote: »

AlterBlika wrote: »

They've never adjusted content after u35. For some reason they're fine with content older than 2-3 years at best being completely brain dead.

Thats my concern with this current new update. So much content is about to become trivial. These are huge power increases that are coming.

What gets concerning is the current way of fixing the problem with nerfs is that it will nerf a skill or a set because of subclassing, but then in order to get back to normal/competitive levels it will force people to subclass. Example is the Pillagers nerf. The nerf on paper makes sense because with subclassing you can go insane on ult-gen...but if you dont choose to subclass well then you just took a huge hit to the point its almost worthless to wear the set...thus encouraging you to subclass if not forcing you to if you want to continue with that set.

Seems like there needs to be a nerfing system in place that is just for subclassing in the same way there is a nerfing system in place for just pvp environments.

Yep, even the trickier DLC HM dungeons became less difficult when they released the arcanist, and now with this ridiculous multiclass power surge it's going to make it even less fun and remove the feeling of accomplishment from clearing challenging content. It's the most garbage update they've done, I'm really not sure what's going to be fun for those of us who like that kind of content.

Ragnarok0130

ADarklore wrote: »

There IS NOT a 'huge amount of power creep'. There are some min/maxers who are using certain combinations to gain higher yields, but this does not impact the overwhelming majority of players... unless they choose to follow the min/maxers, and then, it's on them. Why should players who don't follow the min/maxers be penalized to compensate for those who do?!?

As a self described "Strictly a solo PvE quester" you do not have the knowledge or experience to judge the amount of power creep in areas of the game in which you do not participate such as PVP and PVE end game. You personally will never be penalized in the open world solo questing due to the extreme ease of overland no matter the course of action ZoS takes. Those of us who do participate in end game are very concerned with balance because it can make or break end game like we saw in both the Morrowind patch and in U35 patch with their end game exoduses. End game still hasn't recovered from U35 and it's follow on effects.

Renato90085

Zos use 4-5year slow add 40k Dps in game, so god slayer(2019) very easy than SBS (2022)MM(2023) TU(2024)
now we have a patch buff we from 140k st Dps be 150-170k aoe dps
I think main problem is how next trial/dungeon hm should hard or how big nerf in next patch(U47/48

Maggusemm

Power creep is intended and part of any game I would say. It is the way that also weaker player can achieve a TTT. Imagine playing TTT today with 30-40k dps in real content like it was when it was published.

Some players do not even have it nowadays. Its ok that players can have a chance achieving godslayers which is 5-6 year old content. You need the power for the more difficult dungeons.

On the other hand you could in no way clear unstoppable with the damage available when vHOF was published. You would just get overwhelmed by Atros. Its very ok like it is planned. Or do you think that for players who are not part of the best 3% and dont have 11 good team mates who are also in the best 3 % that old content is never achievable? I would say its ok like it is planned. No need to buff bosses back or something like this.

StonyShrink

Greetings, fellow gamers, and thank you for welcoming me to your fabulous community. I am writing my first post after lurking on the forums. I apologize to those who do not enjoy reading long posts, for this is going to be quite lengthy. I am a psychology, philosophy, and English professor, so sometimes my fingers begin rambling before I can remember that I am writing for an audience that also has a life and things to do today. With that being said, I would like to contribute to our ESO community if I may.

I have loved TES games since I played Oblivion on Xbox 360. I had just gotten out of the military and began my education, so I did not have much of a support group to interact with during that transition. I had been playing EverQuest for over five years when I finally realized the game was simply not fun. It had gotten to the point of a daily grind for fictitious gear that did nothing to enrich my life. I began to dislike MMO games since it seemed that the player-based economy quickly became corrupt and destroyed, the role-playing aspect was never created as a priority, and lastly, the games simply stayed stagnant. We would get new expansions each year to keep people investing in the product, but never did we enjoy large changes in the game or mechanics themselves. This drove me insane, for it seemed that the only point of the game was to grind to end-game content and then grind for epic gear. This never made any sense to me as I largely enjoyed playing games for the role-playing experience rather than the rewards given to a character that only exists on paper; I also only play video games to supplement when I lack a tabletop group, or when my fifteen-year-old son wants to play a game with me.

I got into EverQuest while I was stationed overseas in 1999 because I had no Dungeons and Dragons (D&D) or Magic: The Gathering (MTG) friends with whom to play such games. I turned to EverQuest because building a gaming PC and turning my colleagues onto a video game was much easier than trying to teach someone how to play D&D or MTG who had no background in the D20 system or fantasy multiverse. I only play fantasy-based RPG games that are PVE in nature. I stay away from anything that promotes the use of firearms, death for fun, or something that takes me out of the moment and forces me to dissociate from reality. I also play games for the satisfaction of continuing a campaign that a team of authors is working on for the Forgotten Realms series, so I am usually only attracted to games that exist in the Pathfinder, Forgotten Realms, or Vampire the Masquerade universe.

EverQuest was fun for about a year when it was fresh, the quests were kind of worth doing, and the player-based economy did not revolve around shopping on Player Auctions and eBay for enough platinum pieces to be able to afford gear that was worthy of grouping with other players. I quickly understood that MMOs are full of addicts and egomaniacs who get a dopamine hit each time they receive some kind of digital equipment. This behavior is much like online gambling, but worse, since there is nothing to show for it at the end of your online gaming career. The game got to the point that we were bullied and shunned for trying to enjoy the role-playing aspect of the game rather than engage in the group thinking of farming for XP and gear.

I removed myself from the toxicity of online gaming when I became focused on school. I immersed myself in the gamer’s club at my university and began playing D&D and MTG with other psychology and law majors. I found camaraderie and friendship that developed within a group that was forced to sit face to face and not have the anonymity of the internet protecting them. This meant people had to behave in a way that would ensure they would be welcome back to future games. People had to bring something to the group and not just take what the group had to offer. We would meet in the Student Center each Friday night and break out the D&D libraries, MTG decks, and Munchkin packs. Never did I remember anyone complaining that they did not get a drop they wanted or that someone was playing “wrong.” The only time we ever heard this was from the very small minority of members who played video games as their primary gaming source. When Call of Duty Modern Warfare came out, the Student Center was overrun with students screaming about camping and spawn killing. Tabletop gamers migrated to tables outside the Student Center, where we could play in peace once again.

When Oblivion launched, it was the selling point for me to purchase an Xbox 360. I had finished my first BA and was starting my MA in that field, so I had a few hours a week to explore Tamriel. I had never played an Elder Scrolls game before Oblivion, so I was very impressed. One thing I loved that the creators did was make the game a true RPG. I spent hours reading lore books and just wandering around in amazement at the detail in the world. I also loved that the game was designed with a definite tribute to D&D and the D20 system. There was no set class that I had to adhere to. I could use just about any ability I wanted in the game. I loved that my assassin could do only the Dark Brotherhood quests and then spend the rest of the time of his game life sneaking around being a master thief. I also loved that is game was not online. Guild Wars had launched not too long before, and it turned out to be a complete disaster with the RPG tabletop crowd. Again, I played Oblivion because it was the closest to a tabletop RPG I could find that I did not have to have a committed, real-world group to enjoy.

Oblivion allowed me to write fan fiction and create a D20 world for the tabletop group I eventually formed. I began watching all the YouTube videos I could of people reading lore books found throughout the game while I played or did chores around the house. When Twitch became popular, I began following people who would play Oblivion on Twitch to see how they developed and rolled their characters. I quickly grew tired of the monotony of closing all the Oblivion gates I created, so I shelved the game for a few years and used my Xbox to stream Netflix. Again, I found a pretty consistent MTG group at our local game shop since the new core set had just launched.

As I was investing hundreds of dollars in building my MTG collection so I could participate in the latest format called Standard, Skyrim came out for the Xbox 1. My wife was already playing Fallout 3 and was quite invested in the Fallout universe when I decided to try Skyrim. My wife stayed with the Fallout franchise as she preferred executing zombies and raiders over zapping Deadra. I was playing Skyrim consistently until about two weeks ago when I decided to try ESO. My son got a Game Pass, so a free MMO is hard to pass up.

The thing I love about Skyrim is the replay value added by the Nexus mods. Even on the Console, the mods are amazing. I have not done the main quest or played as a Dragonborn in over five years, but I play almost every week and have a new experience each time by simply downloading new mods. My favorite mods are graphics overhauls like Skyland AIO and mods that provide fun, immersive cheats. I can raise an army of 500 undead minions to wipe out the Imperials while sniping with a crossbow and exploding bolts of fire that throw my enemy 500 feet into the air on impact. The creativity and passion of the makers of the mods for Skyrim are truly inspirational. I am grateful that a company allows third-party mods to be installed and works with the community to help us get our mods working smoothly. No other game developer that I have had experience with would allow you to mod their game, let alone provide assistance to do so.

As you can see, I am new to ESO, but not new to MMOs and gaming in general. As I have been researching ESO to see if it is something I want to dedicate time to, I am learning that it is a game that I will play, despite it being online. ESO should tide me over until Elder Scrolls 6 launches, at which time I will thank my ESO character for the fun experience I had during our short time together and make room on my console for TESVI.

With that being said, I would like to voice my appreciation for what I see from this game and its creators so far. ESO is first and foremost an Elder Scrolls experience and secondly an online game. I love this! I am so turned off by the MMO philosophy that I was very cautious and skeptical about playing this game. Playing with “hardcore” or endgame players reminds me of hanging out in bars with people who became intoxicated as a hobby. Many of these people express little to no gratitude for the experience they are neglecting. I require a support group meeting after dealing with an alcoholic and I am often in need of a meeting after encountering gaming addicts. I have worked in recovery for entirely too long and do my best to help people keep themselves sober so that I do not need to sustain abuse from people who are chasing their fix when I am trying to simply fish and enjoy a gorgeous digital sunset after a taxing day.

Another area I think the developers of ESO succeeded is the ever-changing meta and game mechanics. It is so refreshing to see a video game shake up the meta like it is expected and demanded in tabletop mechanics. When playing MTG, if I bring a deck that I played last year to the shop today and expect it to advance to another round, I would be quite disappointed. In MTG, we get a new core set each year, or at least we did until the schedule changed a while back. Every quarter, we get an expansion for the core set. Each expansion knocks out a previous expansion, so those cards that you bought last year are no longer legal to play in the Standard format. This ensures players don’t sit on one mechanic or deck and make the meta go stale. Nobody wants to watch a national MTG tourney when everyone is playing with the same winning strategy. What this means is every 3 months, we gain a mechanic and lose a mechanic. We also shift the power advantage from one color to another. It is up to the players to figure out the meta Wizards of the Coast created to make the most out of the new set. WOC will not tell you which mechanics are stronger or weaker, or what colors have a slight edge over another. They leave this to the players who build sets, collect cards, and create decks that focus on new triggers and mechanics to take advantage of what the dev team wants to see played. I think often video game players forget that they are not playing their game, but rather a game they have the privilege to enjoy. A person does not own an MMO, but rather the developers create the meta and let players decide if they want to participate in the latest changes.

The developers of ESO are focused on making progress and pushing players toward experiencing things outside of their comfort zones. This is another aspect of this game that attracts me to it. Just like in MTG or D&D, if you wish to participate in the latest lore, content, and play, then you have to progress and evolve with the game. The only time I have ever heard tabletop players complain that our game changed was when we went from D&D 3.5 to 4.0. Many people had libraries that they had built for decades, and they were not ready to invest in new books. On top of that, WOC introduced a new gameplay style that was more familiar to a video game style of play rather than the traditional turn-based mechanic tabletop players worship. Other than that, we look forward to spending hundreds of dollars on cards to experience the latest meta for a couple of months. Some people spend countless hours scouring the internet and card shops trying to purchase or collect the cards they want for their ultimate deck. We spent weeks researching the new mechanic and trying to figure out what WOC wanted us to do with this new puzzle. ESO changes its mechanics like no other MMO I have ever seen. This is so refreshing and will be a huge factor in choosing to pay real money for this game. I am impressed with a dev company that encourages its players to evolve. If those who choose not to evolve wish to stay on the fringes and complain about the good old days, it makes more room in ques for those of us who are grateful for a positive experience that I know I should enjoy while it lasts.

I suppose, as a gamer, it comes down to perspective. I teach people to always have a growth mindset and never let themselves be comfortable or stagnant. If this game gives me the same joy and enriches my life as much as getting together once a week with other disabled vets and playing D&D while we share trauma and coping mechanisms, then I am very much looking forward to the experience. I hope the game is not tainted by a community of those who fear change and live in a fixed mindset. I find people with this personality disorder are toxic and have very little in life to be grateful for outside of what they can call “reality.” The joy I get from teaching students, helping vets and addicts, and acting as a political activist within my community is the same joy I am hoping to get from playing ESO. I am hoping for a rich environment of role players who are not focused on min/max and understand those of us who play this game with no ambition of creating a high-level character at all, but rather to experience what the world itself has to offer.

If you have made it this far in my post, I thank you. I appreciate you taking the time to hear my opinion on this matter and understand that there are gamers in this world who thrive on waking up to a different experience in our game each time we choose to play. I guess at the end of the day, we should all remember that this is simply a game and it has no impact on reality, or the way we should treat one another. When I find an online community within an MMO that emulates that which I find at my local card and comic shop, then I will have found my online tribe. I suppose, as I have a lot to learn about this game, I should begin researching guilds to find casual, RP, LGBTQ friendly folks with whom to interact when I have time to run my toon around this amazing world.

As I am looking to learn more about this game and explore the in-depth mechanics of the skills, I would appreciate watching some experienced players. If anyone has a YouTube channel or Twitch feed I can join while you play, I would be very grateful to learn some things about ESO. As of now, I am following a couple of PC gamers on YouTube who have been quite helpful in getting started. ESO gives you the option to make a very customizable character and then drops you into the world without much guidance. I can dig this, but it is helpful to get a little help from players who have been through the game a few times. Again, I am mostly interested in walking around the world, seeing the way things have been created, and enjoying some questioning along the way. I do not group with other players simply because I find people rush and do not take the time a quest or objective deserves. I couldn't care less about what item drops or if I get XP on my character. I am more interested in the lighting of the dungeon, the way people created their characters, and the slow, methodical way I explore each nook and cranny of the game.

Like I said, I hope this game will keep my interest until TESVI launches. I typically have an attention span of 3-5 years when it comes to jobs, relationships, and hobbies, so if this game can keep my interest for a year, then I will be quite happy. By that time, we will have a new core set of MTG and an expansion that melds Final Fantasy and MTG together. Since COVID, in-person gaming groups have been hard to find in smaller communities. When I am in the Bay Area, I have no trouble finding pick-up groups and rolling a character or breaking out a deck to play either Commander or Standard.

The last thing I am hoping to get out of ESO is a positive RPG experience for my son. He loves D&D, and I have created a D20 campaign for him and his friends that takes place in the Fallout universe, but he has grown tired of the monotony found in a lot of video games. We built his computer to run the HTC Vive when it launched, so he has a nice collection of VR games plus his ever-growing Steam library. The only video games my son and I have played since he was eight years old have been physics and open sandbox games. Any game that has a linear storyline or makes you go in a certain direction is not a game we will play. We might as well watch TV or a movie. Oh, we don’t do that either. If we are going to watch a movie, we must take the television out of the closet. Books and board games take the place of a television set in our house. My son and I play games such as My Summer Car, Kerbal Space Program, Gary’s Mod, Roblox, Train Sim, Derail Valley, and Lego Star Wars/Harry Potter. Most of the time, we are working on building our railroad layout and hosting operating sessions for our model train club, but as summer is approaching, we are looking for more indoor activities.

Thank you again for letting me be part of a great gaming community. I look forward to learning more about this game and finding good, knowledgeable advice from the forum. I just really wanted to express my gratitude for the way the game is created and maintained. A lot of people get upset when the world changes and they are not yet ready to evolve, but from what I can see from the comments in this thread, this community is made up of more progress-minded people who embrace discomfort and exploration more than living a stagnant and familiar existence.

tsaescishoeshiner

The new content doesn't appear to be harder because of subclassing at all. There's some harder older content, although a lot is easier. It feels like that merits a separate discussion about difficulty that doesn't involve subclassing too much.

Otherwise, having a gradient of easy-to-harder content lets players enter non-DLC dungeons and trials and work their way up.