Subclassing doesn’t feel like it’s adding something

Thalindra_Moonveil

Subclassing doesn’t feel like it’s adding something, it feels like it’s taking away.

My suggestion would have been to let classes keep all their skill lines and just be able to add 1 skill line from other classes and lock it at 4 skill lines. If you wanted to use 2 skill lines from other classes then you would have to take away 1 of your class skill line.

Don’t get me wrong I love the idea but I would like to keep all of my Templar skill lines and maybe add storm calling giving my character the Aurorans feeling from Depths of Malatar. This way my Templar would still feel like a Templar with all the golden skills but with more.

Otherwise there is going to be a lot of unused dd skills since the passives on those skill lines are subpar or downright just bad for example ritual of retribution (restoring light), burning talons (Draconic power) etc

VoidCommander

I agree that having 3 base plus 1 extra subclass would have been the best implementation by a mile.

necro_the_crafter

If they went through every skill line and created a weaker versions of them specificly for subclassing, with like 3 active skills, 2 passives and 1 ultimate, and allowed us to simply add 1 of that cut down lines to our existing class kit, that might be really interesting.
They could even reuse some of companion skills for that matter.

my biggest gripe with subclassing, there is little creative effort involved, it feels like someone just pull the switch thay says "allow swaps of different class skill lines", and called it a day.

With the current system, they need to do something more, like expanding scribing onto class skills, so we can customise damage types and resourse costs at least.

Rungar

I disagree, you should have to give up something to get something. I think they are on the right track with what they are doing, which isnt really multiclassing or subclassing but rather make your own classing.

Gilvoth

its adding alot,
we can now make our own classes, and many builds never before even fathomed.
but most important ...

it's adding Customers.

ForumBully

spaceghost8 wrote: »

Subclassing doesn’t feel like it’s adding something, it feels like it’s taking away.

My suggestion would have been to let classes keep all their skill lines and just be able to add 1 skill line from other classes and lock it at 4 skill lines. If you wanted to use 2 skill lines from other classes then you would have to take away 1 of your class skill line.

Don’t get me wrong I love the idea but I would like to keep all of my Templar skill lines and maybe add storm calling giving my character the Aurorans feeling from Depths of Malatar. This way my Templar would still feel like a Templar with all the golden skills but with more.

Otherwise there is going to be a lot of unused dd skills since the passives on those skill lines are subpar or downright just bad for example ritual of retribution (restoring light), burning talons (Draconic power) etc

I'll bet the whole thing gets revamped by Monday thanks to this feedback

Zyaneth_Bal

I always believed that eso shouldn’t have had classes. But if it didn’t then it should have been so from the very start, not to mention it would look very different from what subclassing is. Suddenly removing classes that the game has been designed and built around for 11 years is sure to spell disaster.

BattleAxe

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

I always believed that eso shouldn’t have had classes. But if it didn’t then it should have been so from the very start, not to mention it would look very different from what subclassing is. Suddenly removing classes that the game has been designed and built around for 11 years is sure to spell disaster.

No classes are being removed in fact way subclassing is designed thousands of classes have just been added in a roundabout way. ESO is 11 yrs on from beginning and it’s a far cry from where it was at launch and in another ten yrs it will be a far cry from where it is now.

Reading people stating how this is going to kill pure classes it’s not yes pure classes are not gonna be as strong but it’s not becuz of nerfing classes it is becuz mix matching skill lines is allowing players to pick skill lines tht boost the power and effectiveness of their chosen role. Class identity is also not effected becuz u can choose to take/change one or 2 skill lines for skill lines tht can boost your class further. Class identity isnt the skill lines its the playstyle each class has for example dk is considered to be the de facto dot class now u can pick skill lines that take that identity and make it stronger.

As classes are without subclassing you have 3 skill lines with passives in all three tht subscribe to a role archetype damage dealer tank or healer why subclassing surpasses pure classing is you sacrifice up to 2 skill lines for others meaning tank gives up healing and damage lines for lines with passives and skills directed towards tanking. Same with the other archetypes thus staying on a pure classing is obviously gonna have the drawback of not being as strong at any one of the archetypes. Even if you take subclassing and give it say 50% effectiveness to native skill lines subclassing will still out perform pure classing as your still giving up skill lines that don’t align with your chosen archetype.

To address the op title of this forum post subclassing is adding options many options and substantial build diversity.

necro_the_crafter

BattleAxe wrote: »

No classes are being removed in fact way subclassing is designed thousands of classes have just been added in a roundabout way. ESO is 11 yrs on from beginning and it’s a far cry from where it was at launch and in another ten yrs it will be a far cry from where it is now.

Reading people stating how this is going to kill pure classes it’s not yes pure classes are not gonna be as strong but it’s not becuz of nerfing classes it is becuz mix matching skill lines is allowing players to pick skill lines tht boost the power and effectiveness of their chosen role. Class identity is also not effected becuz u can choose to take/change one or 2 skill lines for skill lines tht can boost your class further. Class identity isnt the skill lines its the playstyle each class has for example dk is considered to be the de facto dot class now u can pick skill lines that take that identity and make it stronger.

As classes are without subclassing you have 3 skill lines with passives in all three tht subscribe to a role archetype damage dealer tank or healer why subclassing surpasses pure classing is you sacrifice up to 2 skill lines for others meaning tank gives up healing and damage lines for lines with passives and skills directed towards tanking. Same with the other archetypes thus staying on a pure classing is obviously gonna have the drawback of not being as strong at any one of the archetypes. Even if you take subclassing and give it say 50% effectiveness to native skill lines subclassing will still out perform pure classing as your still giving up skill lines that don’t align with your chosen archetype.

To address the op title of this forum post subclassing is adding options many options and substantial build diversity.

Even if you try to build something coherent by combining different class lines, you still end up with a frankenstain that shoots rainbows.

Without proper tools to customise visuals, damage types, and resourse costs we will end up with basicly randomise button on class selection menu.

Thalindra_Moonveil

Rungar wrote: »

I disagree, you should have to give up something to get something. I think they are on the right track with what they are doing, which isnt really multiclassing or subclassing but rather make your own classing.

I don't follow, there is an opportunity cost. We don't have unlimited slots, I'm already giving up something by not choosing a different skill line or skills

Rungar

spaceghost8 wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

I disagree, you should have to give up something to get something. I think they are on the right track with what they are doing, which isnt really multiclassing or subclassing but rather make your own classing.

I don't follow, there is an opportunity cost. We don't have unlimited slots, I'm already giving up something by not choosing a different skill line or skills

That cost isnt high enough and cannot get eso to a classless or make your own class system, aka skyrim or oblivion aka play your way. 10 years of changes has shown the class system as they implemented it is a general failure. Time to try something different.

BattleAxe

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

No classes are being removed in fact way subclassing is designed thousands of classes have just been added in a roundabout way. ESO is 11 yrs on from beginning and it’s a far cry from where it was at launch and in another ten yrs it will be a far cry from where it is now.

Reading people stating how this is going to kill pure classes it’s not yes pure classes are not gonna be as strong but it’s not becuz of nerfing classes it is becuz mix matching skill lines is allowing players to pick skill lines tht boost the power and effectiveness of their chosen role. Class identity is also not effected becuz u can choose to take/change one or 2 skill lines for skill lines tht can boost your class further. Class identity isnt the skill lines its the playstyle each class has for example dk is considered to be the de facto dot class now u can pick skill lines that take that identity and make it stronger.

As classes are without subclassing you have 3 skill lines with passives in all three tht subscribe to a role archetype damage dealer tank or healer why subclassing surpasses pure classing is you sacrifice up to 2 skill lines for others meaning tank gives up healing and damage lines for lines with passives and skills directed towards tanking. Same with the other archetypes thus staying on a pure classing is obviously gonna have the drawback of not being as strong at any one of the archetypes. Even if you take subclassing and give it say 50% effectiveness to native skill lines subclassing will still out perform pure classing as your still giving up skill lines that don’t align with your chosen archetype.

To address the op title of this forum post subclassing is adding options many options and substantial build diversity.

Even if you try to build something coherent by combining different class lines, you still end up with a frankenstain that shoots rainbows.

Without proper tools to customise visuals, damage types, and resourse costs we will end up with basicly randomise button on class selection menu.

Those tools are slowly being introduced in game with ability to change skill appearances and scribing does allow custome damage typing. There is an alarming trend which actually led to my eso hiatus only logging in for dailies and that is that players of late essentially want things spoon fed to them and to have their cake and eat it to.

So let’s go ahead buff pure classes passives and skills to make them on par with subclassing wait oops due to the buffs to pure classes the class combo xyz now does 200k dps. Oh now lets make sub classes passives half as strong as native lines what no how is subclass still so far ahead of pure classes?

Sorry to seem passive aggressive but it blows my mind tht it appears to me as much as I hear people saying the devs are out of touch with the game the players are so much more so out of touch with the game if people really think pure classes with passives tht are a combination of dps healing and tanking is or should be as strong as choosing 3 skill lines that are all directed towards either dps healing or tanking.

tomofhyrule

BattleAxe wrote: »

Sorry to seem passive aggressive but it blows my mind tht it appears to me as much as I hear people saying the devs are out of touch with the game the players are so much more so out of touch with the game if people really think pure classes with passives tht are a combination of dps healing and tanking is or should be as strong as choosing 3 skill lines that are all directed towards either dps healing or tanking.

The thing is that people already can hyperfocus into a role. You only have 5+1 skills per bar, so it's not like a DPS right now will slot in all of their tank skills in the first place. They already will focus on one role.

But every time someone says "but you should be hyperfocused into damage if you drop all of your tanking and healing lines!", it always comes to a few basic facts:

1. What are the set "tank," "heal," and "dps" lines for the basegame classes?
2. What about the overlaps even in the DLC classes (like how people are trying their hardest to make Warden's tank line into a dps line)?
3. Doesn't that also imply that a pureclass should be superior to a Subclass in areas where one solo character needs to do all three roles simultaneously, like vMA or PvP?

The fact that there is no area where it's beneficial to be pure class over Subclassed means the balance is off. In an RPG, everything should be a choice, not that one option should be 50% better than other options.

BattleAxe

tomofhyrule wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

Sorry to seem passive aggressive but it blows my mind tht it appears to me as much as I hear people saying the devs are out of touch with the game the players are so much more so out of touch with the game if people really think pure classes with passives tht are a combination of dps healing and tanking is or should be as strong as choosing 3 skill lines that are all directed towards either dps healing or tanking.

The thing is that people already can hyperfocus into a role. You only have 5+1 skills per bar, so it's not like a DPS right now will slot in all of their tank skills in the first place. They already will focus on one role.

But every time someone says "but you should be hyperfocused into damage if you drop all of your tanking and healing lines!", it always comes to a few basic facts:

1. What are the set "tank," "heal," and "dps" lines for the basegame classes?
2. What about the overlaps even in the DLC classes (like how people are trying their hardest to make Warden's tank line into a dps line)?
3. Doesn't that also imply that a pureclass should be superior to a Subclass in areas where one solo character needs to do all three roles simultaneously, like vMA or PvP?

The fact that there is no area where it's beneficial to be pure class over Subclassed means the balance is off. In an RPG, everything should be a choice, not that one option should be 50% better than other options.

And here we have the core problem that will never be perfectly solved there is so much that goes into balancing there is no objective perfect solution. For example could introduce a set tht buffs class passives by 50% 75% and 100% based on number of class lines of base class now this makes pure classes twice as strong as before essentially doubling their dps now this puts them way over ppl who decided to subclass now the subclass players complain cuz they can’t compete with pure classes so now we swing their direction and now they out perform pure classes and it goes back and forth just as it is now with pve vs pvp players.

One other aspect is individual skill lvl. 2 players in exact same build may not be at similar skill lvls so who do we balance off of the more skilled or less skilled? There isn’t a totally correct answer there as if u buff things for the unskilled player that overly benefits more skilled player and if we nerf things to bring down skilled player tht hurts unskilled player more. You see here is why finding the sweet spot is next to impossible as this game needs to be balanced around many different levels of skill in game.

LPapirius

IMO subclassing is adding a lot of confusion and balance issues. So it is adding to the game, just not in a good way.

Vonnegut2506

LPapirius wrote: »

IMO subclassing is adding a lot of confusion and balance issues. So it is adding to the game, just not in a good way.

It is also adding excitement and expectation for many of us as well.

necro_the_crafter

BattleAxe wrote: »

Those tools are slowly being introduced in game with ability to change skill appearances and scribing does allow custome damage typing. There is an alarming trend which actually led to my eso hiatus only logging in for dailies and that is that players of late essentially want things spoon fed to them and to have their cake and eat it to.

So let’s go ahead buff pure classes passives and skills to make them on par with subclassing wait oops due to the buffs to pure classes the class combo xyz now does 200k dps. Oh now lets make sub classes passives half as strong as native lines what no how is subclass still so far ahead of pure classes?

Sorry to seem passive aggressive but it blows my mind tht it appears to me as much as I hear people saying the devs are out of touch with the game the players are so much more so out of touch with the game if people really think pure classes with passives tht are a combination of dps healing and tanking is or should be as strong as choosing 3 skill lines that are all directed towards either dps healing or tanking.

I think that balance should be last problem on the list to solve. Be it nerfes or buffs to dps, you wont see less expirienced players clearing harder content, or expiriensed players suddenly being not able to do contet they can already clear on live.
Yes, training rotation on dummy is a good thing, and trying to push numbers in controlled enviorment is a nice thing to learn a class you play and build muscle memory for rotation, but actual combat is vastly different from dummy parsing.
Hitting 200k dps on dummy wont magicly make you do mechanics properly or have high uptime on target in an actual combat.

First problem though, is that subclassing isnt really reaching a goal it tries to achieve.
If you want to introduce diversity and creative freedom by just mixing up class lines, it just falls apart due to classes being distinct and unique on their own.

Like, I know some people actualy want to play as rainbow warriors, shooting random flashes of colors at targets util they proc epileptic siesure on them, but the point of roleplaying is to chose a theme for your character, create a backstory. Good enough system should allow me to build an argonian plague mage - that has poison and desease spells, and heals by cannibalising onto his fallen foes, or breton royal spellsword, that knows martial arts and weaves them with elemental magic, or nord frost mage who manifests high hrothgar storms as ice wraiths, or Dark elf pyromancer, who summons magma of red mountian to rain upon their foes. You get the idea.

All of that is quite unfesable right now, and subclassing isnt helping it in a slightest. Expanding scribing system to every skill will help it a lot. Adding a feature to custimise skills, would help the visual part too. And, you can lock colors and effects for customisation behind achivements, so there would also be incentive to learn the game, if you want to be pretty while you channel your fire beam of death.

If ZoS have different teams for balance and design, then both problems could be addressed simoultaniously, but is they have just one combat team for both balance and design, I think they have to address design first, beacuse thematic mess is much more messier then balance mess.

The_Meathead

Gilvoth wrote: »

its adding alot,
we can now make our own classes, and many builds never before even fathomed.
but most important ...

it's adding Customers.

I hope you're right.

I applaud the optimism but can't quite bring myself to share it.

My gut feeling is that whatever players it may indeed add will be far smaller in number than those who get frustrated with horrible balance in their particular favorite bit of the game and simply move on, after U35, Hybridization/homogenization, and now Subclassing. Subclassing especially feels too grandiose with too little actual effort or care in its execution, to my eyes.

Who knows? I truly hope you're right and my instincts are wrong.

icapital

Gilvoth wrote: »

its adding alot,
we can now make our own classes, and many builds never before even fathomed.
but most important ...

it's adding Customers.

I'm going to need a MASSIVE source for this claim here, buddy.

Vonnegut2506

According to the Steam charts, ESO has gained over 2K players in the last 30 days. I wouldn't know if that source is MASSIVE enough for you, but it does show numbers have gone up recently.

ADarklore

icapital wrote: »

I'm going to need a MASSIVE source for this claim here, buddy.

I know "I" personally have returned to the game strictly because of subclassing; without subclassing, I wouldn't be here. I see a LOT of excitement around the forums about it as well... but of course, a lot of people suffer from confirmation bias, and only want to believe what they accept as true. I have also seen, having started a new character, a TON of new players running around... and not just starter zones, but also a ton of players running the scribing main quest. I was actually shocked how many players I actually saw.

People forget that ZOS has working towards making ESO 'Skyrim with Friends' ever since they introduced One Tamriel. The game is focused on those players... so those expecting ZOS to focus on endgame or PvP and neglect their primary customers... doesn't understand how a business works. They have years of data to show what people are playing, which ones of those are leaving, and which ones tend to return- such as when new classes are added. IMO, subclassing is so much better than a new class because it's basically allowing us to create our OWN classes now- like Skyrim.

I'm sure the bean counters have factored in which group of players would be most negatively impacted and have evaluated what the loss would be if a percentage of those players left. They saw it in U35, and they've also seen it with previous updates in the past... but they also know which players stuck around, which players spend the most in the stores, and through all that data, have an idea of which group of players to focus on retaining and bringing back.

mrreow

Changing it all in the 10th year of the game is pretty crazy. Not only you risk alienating existing happy customers that like the game for what it is but also you have tons of intertwined content and systems like pvp that will take gargantuan amount of work to get right unless you just want to leave it kind of in the limbo afterwards

Even roleplaying is clumsy because the skill lines are just sort of out there with no reason or rhyme very often no lore or standalone identity whatsoever. I know that they try to put least amount of effort into this but to do it justice you would have to do some reshuffling and cleaning of the skill lines themselves before pushing it out. Otherwise it will just feel cheap

Honestly what this says to me is "Have fun guys, we no longer take this game seriously. It’s in the final phase of product lifecycle so we may as well as cobble something experimental together and see what happens before we say goodbye" And this is really sad for me because I hoped for more time with ESO

Zallion

spaceghost8 wrote: »

Subclassing doesn’t feel like it’s adding something, it feels like it’s taking away.

My suggestion would have been to let classes keep all their skill lines and just be able to add 1 skill line from other classes and lock it at 4 skill lines. If you wanted to use 2 skill lines from other classes then you would have to take away 1 of your class skill line.

Don’t get me wrong I love the idea but I would like to keep all of my Templar skill lines and maybe add storm calling giving my character the Aurorans feeling from Depths of Malatar. This way my Templar would still feel like a Templar with all the golden skills but with more.

Otherwise there is going to be a lot of unused dd skills since the passives on those skill lines are subpar or downright just bad for example ritual of retribution (restoring light), burning talons (Draconic power) etc

This. I feel like this is THE solution to the divisiveness. I’m very much against subclassing, to the point where I’m going to unsub and rarely play as I hate what it is going to do for this game. This simple yet effective idea for implementation would probably change my mind. It’s a split down the middle. Pure classes get love and are more important this way, and you lose nothing for the current implementation of subclassing, with the option to trade that 3rd pure class line for a 2nd subclass line. 4 class lines would be the fix to keep me playing.

Daoin

Zallion wrote: »

spaceghost8 wrote: »

Subclassing doesn’t feel like it’s adding something, it feels like it’s taking away.

My suggestion would have been to let classes keep all their skill lines and just be able to add 1 skill line from other classes and lock it at 4 skill lines. If you wanted to use 2 skill lines from other classes then you would have to take away 1 of your class skill line.

Don’t get me wrong I love the idea but I would like to keep all of my Templar skill lines and maybe add storm calling giving my character the Aurorans feeling from Depths of Malatar. This way my Templar would still feel like a Templar with all the golden skills but with more.

Otherwise there is going to be a lot of unused dd skills since the passives on those skill lines are subpar or downright just bad for example ritual of retribution (restoring light), burning talons (Draconic power) etc

This. I feel like this is THE solution to the divisiveness. I’m very much against subclassing, to the point where I’m going to unsub and rarely play as I hate what it is going to do for this game. This simple yet effective idea for implementation would probably change my mind. It’s a split down the middle. Pure classes get love and are more important this way, and you lose nothing for the current implementation of subclassing, with the option to trade that 3rd pure class line for a 2nd subclass line. 4 class lines would be the fix to keep me playing.

with what could just be thousands of players quietly slipping away now to do other things, playing eso for those that stay could be like supporting milli vanilli even after people found out they were not singing thier own songs. but the point is once the goal posts move again in future updates the game could become fun again even for those against sublassing now, which is why just unsubbing is not the answer for me. i have decided to keep my sub for simple support of a game i spent so many hours enjoying in the past but the playing more rarely part at the moment is unavoidable i think for many. at first i was definatley going to unsub too

TheImperfect

I've decided to get an armory slot when it goes live to keep my original purist class character and be able to switch to the subclassed version which I will mix up with new gear and Scribed skill etc. I can have fun with the new one but keep the original and switch between to vary it up. Can't afford to do that for all 20 characters though.

zammo

Subclassing is just a way to introduce a new "feature" with minimal development time.

supabicboi

zammo wrote: »

Subclassing is just a way to introduce a new "feature" with minimal development time.

Turd tier combat planning and leading us into a direction of no return.

A decision dictated by a combat lead that has little to no knowledge of the intracacies of the ESO combat system that the creators/predecessors of this game have designed.

A full on disrespect to the whole community.

Absolutely disgusting that I will have to subclass to stay competitive.

sans-culottes

ADarklore wrote: »

icapital wrote: »

I'm going to need a MASSIVE source for this claim here, buddy.

I know "I" personally have returned to the game strictly because of subclassing; without subclassing, I wouldn't be here. I see a LOT of excitement around the forums about it as well... but of course, a lot of people suffer from confirmation bias, and only want to believe what they accept as true. I have also seen, having started a new character, a TON of new players running around... and not just starter zones, but also a ton of players running the scribing main quest. I was actually shocked how many players I actually saw.

People forget that ZOS has working towards making ESO 'Skyrim with Friends' ever since they introduced One Tamriel. The game is focused on those players... so those expecting ZOS to focus on endgame or PvP and neglect their primary customers... doesn't understand how a business works. They have years of data to show what people are playing, which ones of those are leaving, and which ones tend to return- such as when new classes are added. IMO, subclassing is so much better than a new class because it's basically allowing us to create our OWN classes now- like Skyrim.

I'm sure the bean counters have factored in which group of players would be most negatively impacted and have evaluated what the loss would be if a percentage of those players left. They saw it in U35, and they've also seen it with previous updates in the past... but they also know which players stuck around, which players spend the most in the stores, and through all that data, have an idea of which group of players to focus on retaining and bringing back.

This is a lot of confident assertion built atop anecdote. Your personal return to the game is valid, of course, but it’s not data. Nor is seeing “a lot of people” doing the scribing quest. That’s called launch-week engagement. It happens every chapter and says little about long-term outcomes.

The repeated invocation of “Skyrim with friends” is also doing a lot of work here. ESO is not Skyrim. It’s an MMORPG with class structures, shared economies, endgame PvE and PvP systems, and an ongoing cadence of balance updates. Pretending otherwise doesn’t clarify the design. It muddies it.

Finally, it’s interesting that you speak with such certainty about the priorities of “the bean counters,” the makeup of the playerbase, and the financial modeling of player attrition—especially given that you’ve said elsewhere that you do not engage with group content. If you don’t interact with it, then why presume to define its place in the ecosystem?

We’re all entitled to speculate. But maybe it’s worth distinguishing between speculation and gospel.

mrreow

The core of the issue boils to this system being great in single player game and very hard to implement in a multiplayer mmo.

So of course players that are entertained by watered down mmo combat mechanics without physics or difficulty or immersion while playing solo are happy and there is surprisingly many of them desperate for an elder scrolls 6.

Meanwhile players that actually want to play an mmo and be a healer or some kind of other complete and well designed class with well thought mechanics and rotation feel let down.

Now they will be forced to play Frankenstein not thematically fitting builds sooner or later unless passives become completely independent from class lines, slot bonuses are removed completely. Then identify certain key skills that also get kicked from skill lines to this external utility skill line etc etc. A lot of work no matter how you want to approach it.

The problem is I worry that ZOS isn’t willing to put the money to try to make it work. That’s another and maybe even bigger problem.

New systems are welcome but is the company willing to put the effort into 10 year old game to avoid build homogenisation, pvp brokenness and make it polished? It is a lot of work and right now how it is on the PTS I haven’t seen anything that would indicate that there is such plan.

necro_the_crafter

In some corean mmo I played as kid, subclassing was a compele swap to other class, and, after you fully level your subclass, upon returning to your main class you were getting a new skills that were a mix between your original class and subclass you level.

And on some intuitive level I was expecting that eso's approch would be kinda simmilar, at least that new subclass line you get would be a mix of your original class and a subclass you choose. A shame ZoS chose minimal effort path, I think people would recive a miriad of brand new mixed skill lines much more positively, even though it would require a longer development time.

sarahthes

Every DPS will be on this build if they are doing any semblance of veteran combat. Super exciting!