Vengeance Redux - New Non-Class Skills

acastanza_ESO

New Non-Class Skills from PTS:

Assault:


Support:


2H:


1H+Shield:


Dual Wield:

(Whirlwind Target Cap Tested on NPCs)

Bow:


Destro:

(Ult Changes appearance but no tooltip changes)

Resto:


Only briefly glanced at Sorcerer class skills but didn't notice any changes

Joy_Division

Thank you for posting this.

Whirlwind Blades does not have a target cap. Typo?

acastanza_ESO

Joy_Division wrote: »

Thank you for posting this.

Whirlwind Blades does not have a target cap. Typo?

Yes, I tested it on NPCs and it capped at 3.

Also, you can not bring subclass skill lines into Vengeance, it reverts to your true class skill lines.

Treeshka

I think Vengeance abilities will always have target cap. That does not sound good in long term in my opinion. Maybe one day or for one test they will remove those caps.

Markytous

These are looking great to me. Thanks for posting! Can't wait to put these to use. Hoping for Vengeance to come back soon!!

xylena_lazarow

Thanks for this, looks exactly like what I was hoping for with the Vengeance skills!

Erickson9610

I honestly hope Vengeance is made a permanent mode alongside regular Cyrodiil. I like the direction being taken with how skills are adapted for Vengeance.

CameraBeardThePirate

Ugh gonna be real, this mode won't last long if they stick to the 3 target cap limit on all skills. At the very least, AoE ultimates need to have a higher/no cap. Otherwise fights just dissolve into giant zerg v zergs.

React

This all looks pretty good, except the target cap on damaging AOEs. It would be absolutely amazing if we could have all AOE heals continue being capped, whilst removing the cap from damage skills - allowing damage to have a slight edge over healing in larger fights. AOE caps on damage skills simply do not work for the large scale combat that is cyrodiil. They completely ruin large scale fights and turn it into a numbers simulator, where the larger groups wins 99% of the time.

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RichLambert

I really like the direction vengeance is going. If you're careful about what you add in terms of cross healing, dots, and self healing i think we can have an environment that truly resembles what a lot of us miss about eso pvp - one based on skill and mechanical knowledge as opposed to builds and exploitation of broken mechanics. But please, PLEASE consider removing the target caps from damaging AOEs.

ForumBully

AoE caps on damage can't be a part of a long term solution for PvP. What you'll get is combat that feels disfuctional.
Target caps for damage will result in combat that feels unbalanced the majority of the day in Cyrodiil. In a large conflict with mostly even numbers on both sides it might go unnoticed, but in every other context it simply means numbers win every time.

Joy_Division

React wrote: »

This all looks pretty good, except the target cap on damaging AOEs. It would be absolutely amazing if we could have all AOE heals continue being capped, whilst removing the cap from damage skills - allowing damage to have a slight edge over healing in larger fights. AOE caps on damage skills simply do not work for the large scale combat that is cyrodiil. They completely ruin large scale fights and turn it into a numbers simulator, where the larger groups wins 99% of the time.

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RichLambert

I really like the direction vengeance is going. If you're careful about what you add in terms of cross healing, dots, and self healing i think we can have an environment that truly resembles what a lot of us miss about eso pvp - one based on skill and mechanical knowledge as opposed to builds and exploitation of broken mechanics. But please, PLEASE consider removing the target caps from damaging AOEs.

It's very frustrating it took us years to convince ZOS of this to have them admit on ESO Live that we were correct about AOE caps, only for them to forget or ignore their own history.

acastanza_ESO

React wrote: »

This all looks pretty good, except the target cap on damaging AOEs. It would be absolutely amazing if we could have all AOE heals continue being capped, whilst removing the cap from damage skills - allowing damage to have a slight edge over healing in larger fights. AOE caps on damage skills simply do not work for the large scale combat that is cyrodiil. They completely ruin large scale fights and turn it into a numbers simulator, where the larger groups wins 99% of the time.

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RichLambert

I really like the direction vengeance is going. If you're careful about what you add in terms of cross healing, dots, and self healing i think we can have an environment that truly resembles what a lot of us miss about eso pvp - one based on skill and mechanical knowledge as opposed to builds and exploitation of broken mechanics. But please, PLEASE consider removing the target caps from damaging AOEs.

Strong agree, but I do think that Healing skills should be a little less aggressively capped specifically with regards to group members. Grouping should feel impactful to the game, heals should be capped at 6 group members, or 3 ungrouped allies, and always prefer group members if targeted.

React

Joy_Division wrote: »

React wrote: »

This all looks pretty good, except the target cap on damaging AOEs. It would be absolutely amazing if we could have all AOE heals continue being capped, whilst removing the cap from damage skills - allowing damage to have a slight edge over healing in larger fights. AOE caps on damage skills simply do not work for the large scale combat that is cyrodiil. They completely ruin large scale fights and turn it into a numbers simulator, where the larger groups wins 99% of the time.

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RichLambert

I really like the direction vengeance is going. If you're careful about what you add in terms of cross healing, dots, and self healing i think we can have an environment that truly resembles what a lot of us miss about eso pvp - one based on skill and mechanical knowledge as opposed to builds and exploitation of broken mechanics. But please, PLEASE consider removing the target caps from damaging AOEs.

It's very frustrating it took us years to convince ZOS of this to have them admit on ESO Live that we were correct about AOE caps, only for them to forget or ignore their own history.

Completely agree. I doubt there is one single PVP player who remembers what they were like and wants them to return. There is nothing more frustrating than coordinating a good ult dump or push onto a group, only to have half of them take zero damage/stuns and continue as if you weren't even there. In my opinion, this is something that absolutely cannot be compromised on for the health and longevity of this environment. We need the caps to be removed from damaging skills.

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

React wrote: »

This all looks pretty good, except the target cap on damaging AOEs. It would be absolutely amazing if we could have all AOE heals continue being capped, whilst removing the cap from damage skills - allowing damage to have a slight edge over healing in larger fights. AOE caps on damage skills simply do not work for the large scale combat that is cyrodiil. They completely ruin large scale fights and turn it into a numbers simulator, where the larger groups wins 99% of the time.

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RichLambert

I really like the direction vengeance is going. If you're careful about what you add in terms of cross healing, dots, and self healing i think we can have an environment that truly resembles what a lot of us miss about eso pvp - one based on skill and mechanical knowledge as opposed to builds and exploitation of broken mechanics. But please, PLEASE consider removing the target caps from damaging AOEs.

Strong agree, but I do think that Healing skills should be a little less aggressively capped specifically with regards to group members. Grouping should feel impactful to the game, heals should be capped at 6 group members, or 3 ungrouped allies, and always prefer group members if targeted.

Honestly, I'm not sure I agree. I'd be willing to see how it played out if they raised them incrementally, but I really think that it would be for the best if they remained capped at 3. Once the heals can hit 6 people, you get into the realm of 12 man groups being able to constantly refresh heals on all of their members with just two dedicated healers. As evidenced by live, this behavior absolutely needs to be dealt with. This environment is so stripped down that it would be really easy for things to overperform when stacked by 12 man groups, and I'd hate to see it devolve into the current situation we have on live where even inept players are practically unkillable gods by doing nothing but spamming AOE heals/hots/shields.

ZOS_Kevin

React wrote: »

This all looks pretty good, except the target cap on damaging AOEs. It would be absolutely amazing if we could have all AOE heals continue being capped, whilst removing the cap from damage skills - allowing damage to have a slight edge over healing in larger fights. AOE caps on damage skills simply do not work for the large scale combat that is cyrodiil. They completely ruin large scale fights and turn it into a numbers simulator, where the larger groups wins 99% of the time.

I really like the direction vengeance is going. If you're careful about what you add in terms of cross healing, dots, and self healing i think we can have an environment that truly resembles what a lot of us miss about eso pvp - one based on skill and mechanical knowledge as opposed to builds and exploitation of broken mechanics. But please, PLEASE consider removing the target caps from damaging AOEs.

Just a brief follow up here. We took some of the comments around the target caps from damaging AOEs to the team. They will be continually looking at abilities throughout the tests in the future with considerations of caps as well. But currently nothing to announce at this time. Just wanted to flag that it is on the team's radar.

ForumBully

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

React wrote: »

This all looks pretty good, except the target cap on damaging AOEs. It would be absolutely amazing if we could have all AOE heals continue being capped, whilst removing the cap from damage skills - allowing damage to have a slight edge over healing in larger fights. AOE caps on damage skills simply do not work for the large scale combat that is cyrodiil. They completely ruin large scale fights and turn it into a numbers simulator, where the larger groups wins 99% of the time.

I really like the direction vengeance is going. If you're careful about what you add in terms of cross healing, dots, and self healing i think we can have an environment that truly resembles what a lot of us miss about eso pvp - one based on skill and mechanical knowledge as opposed to builds and exploitation of broken mechanics. But please, PLEASE consider removing the target caps from damaging AOEs.

Just a brief follow up here. We took some of the comments around the target caps from damaging AOEs to the team. They will be continually looking at abilities throughout the tests in the future with considerations of caps as well. But currently nothing to announce at this time. Just wanted to flag that it is on the team's radar.

Outstanding. Very excited for future Vengeance iterations.

React

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

React wrote: »

This all looks pretty good, except the target cap on damaging AOEs. It would be absolutely amazing if we could have all AOE heals continue being capped, whilst removing the cap from damage skills - allowing damage to have a slight edge over healing in larger fights. AOE caps on damage skills simply do not work for the large scale combat that is cyrodiil. They completely ruin large scale fights and turn it into a numbers simulator, where the larger groups wins 99% of the time.

I really like the direction vengeance is going. If you're careful about what you add in terms of cross healing, dots, and self healing i think we can have an environment that truly resembles what a lot of us miss about eso pvp - one based on skill and mechanical knowledge as opposed to builds and exploitation of broken mechanics. But please, PLEASE consider removing the target caps from damaging AOEs.

Just a brief follow up here. We took some of the comments around the target caps from damaging AOEs to the team. They will be continually looking at abilities throughout the tests in the future with considerations of caps as well. But currently nothing to announce at this time. Just wanted to flag that it is on the team's radar.

Thanks for the update. I'd urge the team to reflect on the original removal of AOE caps from years ago, and the ESO live that @Joy_Division mentioned where the team acknowledged that they were bad for the game and needed to go. At least in regards to damage abilities, I really do not think this is something that can or should be compromised for the sake of performance if you want the environment to be successful and enjoyable long term. Heals are a different story, though.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

@ZOS_Kevin when can we expect the next test to occur? I assume end of June to coincide with the campaign resets?
Also has there been progress on the Q&A?

Will the team consider additional potions /siege types for the next test?

ZOS_Kevin

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin when can we expect the next test to occur? I assume end of June to coincide with the campaign resets?
Also has there been progress on the Q&A?

Will the team consider additional potions /siege types for the next test?

We have estimated timing for the test, but cannot announce anything just yet. Making sure all of our duck are in a row before announcing. As for potions and siege types, also don't have info on that yet. We have some meetings planned soon for an overview so that I can update the Vengeance FAQ before the next round of testing (one of the ducks that we have to get in a row).

Some progress has been made on the Q&A, but we have been working on assisting with PTS feedback and some other tasks at the studio. We are working through the answers the team has provided to make we have as many questions answered as we can and need to get localized for other countries to be able to read as well outside of English. But this is still underway and we hope to get the next Q&A out before the next Vengeance test.

ZOS_Kevin

React wrote: »

Thanks for the update. I'd urge the team to reflect on the original removal of AOE caps from years ago, and the ESO live that @Joy_Division mentioned where the team acknowledged that they were bad for the game and needed to go. At least in regards to damage abilities, I really do not think this is something that can or should be compromised for the sake of performance if you want the environment to be successful and enjoyable long term. Heals are a different story, though.

I've passed this along. Just wanted to highlight that. But for your performance note, it depends on how much performance is impacted. There is a difference between not being performant vs. hindering performance and overall gameplay. Again, not to dismiss the comment but rather just applying some context. But that is what the tests are for. Figuring out what works and what doesn't! But totally acknowledge your position on this and sent it to the team to follow up the previous comment.

YandereGirlfriend

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

React wrote: »

Thanks for the update. I'd urge the team to reflect on the original removal of AOE caps from years ago, and the ESO live that @Joy_Division mentioned where the team acknowledged that they were bad for the game and needed to go. At least in regards to damage abilities, I really do not think this is something that can or should be compromised for the sake of performance if you want the environment to be successful and enjoyable long term. Heals are a different story, though.

I've passed this along. Just wanted to highlight that. But for your performance note, it depends on how much performance is impacted. There is a difference between not being performant vs. hindering performance and overall gameplay. Again, not to dismiss the comment but rather just applying some context. But that is what the tests are for. Figuring out what works and what doesn't! But totally acknowledge your position on this and sent it to the team to follow up the previous comment.

I want to give my additional +1 to not forgetting the lessons of the past.

Offensive AOE caps were abolished for very good reason long ago and they are like a bright red line to tons of PvP players who are sitting on the fence and wondering if the game will continue to be for them do not want to see crossed.

I cannot emphasize enough how absurd and disempowering it is to use an attack, visually hit players with them, and then have absolutely nothing happen in terms of dealing damage. It's like a return to ancient Morrowind combat, when you whack an enemy with your sword and nothing happens due to dice rolls that are obscured from the player. It feels arbitrary and stupid and like your skill with aiming and timing attacks does not matter at all.

IMO, it doesn't matter how performant a cap is or is not. What counts is the gameplay itself. If the fundamental action gameplay, the gameplay that has kept this game alive through its rough patches, gets chucked overboard in the name of performance, then you have a performant game that is not actually enjoyable to play. With all of the competition for customers' and players' scarce time, attention, and money, that would seem to be a very unwise move to make.

Estin

Vengeance has the potential to be one of the greatest things to happen to ESO and PvP in general. I will stress that it's important to keep the line of communication this transparent and listen to players who know this side of the game inside and out. It's the only way for this to not fail. I'm hopeful that more variety will be added on top of these new additions.

It's too late for to do anything about sublcassing, but any big changes to the game similar to Vengeance needs to be done exactly like this is going. It doesn't matter if it takes longer for things to come out. This type of cycle is ensuring Vegeance is going to be released as a quality system due to early testing and feedback intake. I hope the same can be done for the overland difficulty concept.

React

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

React wrote: »

Thanks for the update. I'd urge the team to reflect on the original removal of AOE caps from years ago, and the ESO live that @Joy_Division mentioned where the team acknowledged that they were bad for the game and needed to go. At least in regards to damage abilities, I really do not think this is something that can or should be compromised for the sake of performance if you want the environment to be successful and enjoyable long term. Heals are a different story, though.

I've passed this along. Just wanted to highlight that. But for your performance note, it depends on how much performance is impacted. There is a difference between not being performant vs. hindering performance and overall gameplay. Again, not to dismiss the comment but rather just applying some context. But that is what the tests are for. Figuring out what works and what doesn't! But totally acknowledge your position on this and sent it to the team to follow up the previous comment.

I don't have the technical knowledge to make statements about the efficiency of the caps in relation to performance, but I certainly can speak to how they hinder overall gameplay. As someone who played when they existed originally, and as someone who took part in the recent test. They have an impact that is impossible to ignore, quite literally deteriorating both large and small scale PVP to the point that most people will likely find it unenjoyable. I personally have friends who did not partake in the test exclusively because of the AOE caps, and others who wouldn't play after encountering them on day one. When they existed previously, they were capped at 6 and even that was intolerable.

Something to consider is that if the caps did not exist on offensive abilities, fights would end much more quickly. I noticed during the test that often times sieges would end up in hours long stalemates because players could rez faster than they could be killed, with overwhelming numbers being required to make progress in large scale battles. Perhaps if the caps could be removed from offensive skills while remaining on heals, we'd see these fights end more decisively whilst also having some benefit to performance.

In any case, thanks for your replies here. Hope to see more dialogue around this test and the future of the vengeance environment.

ZOS_Kevin

Thanks again for everyone's feedback here. Will reiterate your points as work continues on the next vengeance test.

ZOS_Kevin

Estin wrote: »

Vengeance has the potential to be one of the greatest things to happen to ESO and PvP in general. I will stress that it's important to keep the line of communication this transparent and listen to players who know this side of the game inside and out. It's the only way for this to not fail. I'm hopeful that more variety will be added on top of these new additions.

It's too late for to do anything about sublcassing, but any big changes to the game similar to Vengeance needs to be done exactly like this is going. It doesn't matter if it takes longer for things to come out. This type of cycle is ensuring Vegeance is going to be released as a quality system due to early testing and feedback intake. I hope the same can be done for the overland difficulty concept.

We plan to hold similar communication pathways that we did for the first test. So hopefully that will help in communicating feedback and for us to get any updates out to you.

Markytous

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Thanks again for everyone's feedback here. Will reiterate your points as work continues on the next vengeance test.

We appreciate you, Kev!

Kungfu

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

We have estimated timing for the test, but cannot announce anything just yet.

Just knowing that you're watching, listening, pushing things on to the right teams...
That's a massive step in the right direction for many of us old timers.

Thank you @ZOS_Kevin for taking the time & intentionally recognizing us!

Unified_Gaming

This is fantastic work and I think many people will benefit from it!


I've also used this as a resource to help get the world out and made a video showcasing these changes/skills so people are up to date and also what it means having played the first test.

ALSO a massive well done to ZOS for this, this is a great step forward and I can't wait to see what else comes as a result of this - looking forward to trying it out again!

https://youtu.be/UxSJumcle9I

Thanks again for the time you put in to make the images below - keep up the good work!

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

New Non-Class Skills from PTS:

Assault:


Support:


2H:


1H+Shield:


Dual Wield:

(Whirlwind Target Cap Tested on NPCs)

Bow:


Destro:

(Ult Changes appearance but no tooltip changes)

Resto:


Assault:


Support:


Only briefly glanced at Sorcerer class skills but didn't notice any changes

Joy_Division

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

React wrote: »

Thanks for the update. I'd urge the team to reflect on the original removal of AOE caps from years ago, and the ESO live that @Joy_Division mentioned where the team acknowledged that they were bad for the game and needed to go. At least in regards to damage abilities, I really do not think this is something that can or should be compromised for the sake of performance if you want the environment to be successful and enjoyable long term. Heals are a different story, though.

I've passed this along. Just wanted to highlight that. But for your performance note, it depends on how much performance is impacted. There is a difference between not being performant vs. hindering performance and overall gameplay. Again, not to dismiss the comment but rather just applying some context. But that is what the tests are for. Figuring out what works and what doesn't! But totally acknowledge your position on this and sent it to the team to follow up the previous comment.

Hi @ZOS_Kevin

I'm glad this is being looked into by the team. Some context here I think is needed as there is some confusion, even among people like myself who dislike AOE caps.

Somehow the assumption here is that AOE caps are "performant" and they improve performance. That eliminating them would be a compromise and led to the degradation of Cyrodiil's performance.

This is not true. It isn't. This isn't my opinion. This comes straight from ESO Live from the lead combat developer. I will quote him in full:

ZOS wrote:

In AvA there are a lot of situations where people, when they were faced with being attacked by AOEs, instead of spreading out – which is sort of the goal of an AOE, it hits a lot of people so you all don’t want to get hit by an attack – but since it only hits 6, you actually wanted to clump up because the damage would only hit the six closest targets. So you were safer to bunch up as much as possible and …

THAT WAS ACTUALLY RESULTING IN CAUSING SOME OF THE PERFORMANCE ISSUES WE’VE BEEN SEEING

So this AOE change [meaning AOEs will now hit all targets] will both cause people to spread out and play more strategically and should help some of the latency issues that we’ve been seeing as well. This is going to be a really great change and we’re really excited to see how it goes.

Yes, it was a great change. Because AOE caps are the opposite of performant. It's not about not being performant vs. hindering performance and overall gameplay. AOE caps hinder both performance and overall gameplay. There is no drawback to removing them. The only drawbacks come from keeping them.

Here is a thought experiment regrading the value of AOE caps. If AOE caps do such wonders for performance and are such a compelling strategic concept, why don't we have the PVE players run their trials with their AOEs only damaging three monsters? They wouldn't stand for it because it would feel awful and the enemies would take forever to die and thus burden the server with calculation after calculation after calculation after calculation.

Why are we PvP players punished with this artificial mechanic that limits our damage, encourages people to ball lightly together and then just spam, spam, spam, and spam their abilities, burdening the server and winning though sheer force of numbers?

It was so frustrating since we knew this immediately when ZOS revealed the presence of these AOE caps. Here is a post from April 2014 (that's the launch date of ESO) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/726492#Comment_726492

We knew the negative gameplay consequences of an AOE cap of 6. I ran in a "ball group" and our leader literally told us to stand together on the same pixel so 18 of our 24 would have 100% damage resistance against all the meteors, impulses, steel tornados, dawnbreakers, talons, and sap spams. We didn;t die and of course burdened the server by spamming the crap out of healing springs and our own PBAOE's that led to the Powerpoint like slide show "gameplay" where no skills registered because the server was literally overloaded. It took us almost two years to convince ZOS to look into this until ZOS finally admitted on its own ESO Live show what we knew since 2014.

And now all of that is just being forgotten. We're going to run this same dance except with an AoE cap of 3 when ZOS's own statement said there were even more players on Vengeance. That is ignoring ESO's own verifiable history.

I think its fair to say that the Vengeance on the whole was a big success. So, kudos, we're on the right track. But let's not pretend there was not one consistent and constant critique of Vengeance, that even came from supporters such as myself that had fun: it was obvious as obvious as crystal clear plain as day that strategy was non-existent and everything came down to who had the bigger zerg. At some point, the nostalgic attraction of Cyrodiil being full of players is going to fade and Vengeance is going to need substance to make it a sustainable compelling option. If all Vengeance turns out to be is bring a bigger zerg because you can only ever hurt 3 of their 60 (who will be healed because that is also capped at 3), even Vengeance's supporters will lose interest.

React

Joy_Division wrote: »

Hi @ZOS_Kevin

I'm glad this is being looked into by the team. Some context here I think is needed as there is some confusion, even among people like myself who dislike AOE caps.

Somehow the assumption here is that AOE caps are "performant" and they improve performance. That eliminating them would be a compromise and led to the degradation of Cyrodiil's performance.

This is not true. It isn't. This isn't my opinion. This comes straight from ESO Live from the lead combat developer. I will quote him in full:

ZOS wrote:

In AvA there are a lot of situations where people, when they were faced with being attacked by AOEs, instead of spreading out – which is sort of the goal of an AOE, it hits a lot of people so you all don’t want to get hit by an attack – but since it only hits 6, you actually wanted to clump up because the damage would only hit the six closest targets. So you were safer to bunch up as much as possible and …

THAT WAS ACTUALLY RESULTING IN CAUSING SOME OF THE PERFORMANCE ISSUES WE’VE BEEN SEEING

So this AOE change [meaning AOEs will now hit all targets] will both cause people to spread out and play more strategically and should help some of the latency issues that we’ve been seeing as well. This is going to be a really great change and we’re really excited to see how it goes.

Wow, I wasn't aware of this particular comment. Thanks for sharing. Hope they make the right decision and remove caps from offensive abilities.

Pepegrillos

I suspect AOE caps are there not just for performance. I don't think they want 1vxers or small-groups dunking on big groups of new/bad players in this campaign, which is what uncapped aoes would facilitate.

CameraBeardThePirate

Pepegrillos wrote: »

I suspect AOE caps are there not just for performance. I don't think they want 1vxers or small-groups dunking on big groups of new/bad players in this campaign, which is what uncapped aoes would facilitate.

Which is silly, because the alternative is that every fight is won by the players with more numbers.

We've been through this before - AoE caps were shown to be bad for Cyrodiil's gameplay.