Suggestion: Change Class Mastery to strongly benefit Pureclassing

Erickson9610

In a previous discussion of mine, I've called out how unfair it is that Templar's Class Mastery is the only Class Mastery to require the use of specific Class skills from one particular skill line, which can now be swapped out with Subclassing. Others contributing to that discussion have suggested that this approach would be useful for making Pureclassing more relevant. In this thread, I will propose my idea for how the Class Mastery Signature Script can be modified to strongly benefit Pureclassing, while still offering minimal utility for those who decide to Subclass.

In short, I propose that every unique Class Mastery effect be standardized into a single Class Mastery effect that strengthens your Class abilities more for each original skill line you use:

This approach would net you:

• 6% increased effectiveness and ability cost reduction for any Class ability when Pureclassing with all 3 original Class skill lines
• 4% increased effectiveness and ability cost reduction for any Class ability when Subclassing with 1 foreign Class skill line
• 2% increased effectiveness and ability cost reduction for any Class ability when Subclassing with 2 foreign Class skill lines

...where "increased effectiveness" affects the damage, healing, damage shield strength, recovery, and any other applicable variable of the Class skills. This would affect all Class abilities, not just your original Class abilities, so it's useful for people who Subclass, but even more useful for people who Pureclass.

This would also get rid of problematic Class Mastery effects, such as Arcanist's Crux generation or Warden's Charm. This would be thematic to the name of "Class Mastery" as it implies that the user of this Script has some sort of mastery over their Class. It would actually encourage you to use Class abilities, which the previous Class Mastery effects didn't always do. Finally, since Scribing is going to be a base game feature shortly after Subclassing launches, this would be the perfect opportunity to encourage everyone who wishes to Pureclass to engage with the Scribing system.


What do you all think? If this idea is good in principle, how should the numbers in the example image be changed? Or should the original Class Mastery effects be left alone?

Grega

I think this xyz% buff to everything if you’re pureclassing should be just flat added, even without the scribing script.

It is the only thing that would prevent exodus of so many players who are not going to subclass if and have already said so.

Erickson9610

Grega wrote: »

I think this xyz% buff to everything if you’re pureclassing should be just flat added, even without the scribing script.

It is the only thing that would prevent exodus of so many players who are not going to subclass if and have already said so.

I disagree. It makes more sense to put this buff behind a set or a skill (like Class Mastery in my example) so that the baseline experience doesn't discourage Subclassing out of the gate.

It could be something like a new Undaunted passive that people would want to work towards unlocking. That way there's a tradeoff between Subclassing for power or Pureclassing for power.

LunaFlora

I'd rather still be able to use Class Mastery regardless of which skill lines my characters have.

i like that each Class' class mastery effect is different.

Tandor

If optional subclassing is the cause of pure classes being automatically nerfed then they should have a compensating boost added automatically, not locked behind another optional activity like scribing.

ImmortalCX

Grega wrote: »

I think this xyz% buff to everything if you’re pureclassing should be just flat added, even without the scribing script.

It is the only thing that would prevent exodus of so many players who are not going to subclass if and have already said so.

Something along these lines. If you don't subclass, you get ___ bonus on everything.

Or make it so that skill line passives are only available to pure classes.

ragnarok6644b14_ESO

Tandor wrote: »

If optional subclassing is the cause of pure classes being automatically nerfed then they should have a compensating boost added automatically, not locked behind another optional activity like scribing.

Why not balance across everything so staying pure class is *just as good* as staying multiclass?

I think the people here are sad that their pure-class builds are getting nerfed, not that pure classes in general are getting nerfed.

Petsorc is not getting nerfed for example.

tomofhyrule

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

If optional subclassing is the cause of pure classes being automatically nerfed then they should have a compensating boost added automatically, not locked behind another optional activity like scribing.

Why not balance across everything so staying pure class is *just as good* as staying multiclass?

I think the people here are sad that their pure-class builds are getting nerfed, not that pure classes in general are getting nerfed.

Petsorc is not getting nerfed for example.

Uhh… we already have class line nerfs on PTS, and they will affect anyone who puts skill points in certain passives. So every pure class DK and Sorc now.

DKs are getting their two sustain passives cut in half. DK skills are already really expensive and solo DKs tend to have sustain issues, because the design of DK as a class is to use your ult in an active rotation to sustain other skills. But we’re getting our sustain cut in half (probably because of things like ult gen from other classes), and in exchange we get more health recovery… which is kinda a useless stat.

Sorcs who play without pets usually still use Atro because it’s one of their best ults. Sorcs who didn’t run permanent pets got a percent resource bonus from their passives which is being taken away now. So that passive is essentially useless if you don’t run permanent pets now (they did soften that nerf a bit since week 1)

Those are the two big ones that came out in week 1 of PTS that affect anyone who runs those classes. Week 4 will bring more changes, and I’m sure that will mean more nerfs to existing passives to account for OP edge cases… but that will affect anyone who has those lines.

randconfig

I don't like this idea lol, why can't subclassing and "pureclassing" just be equal? I don't want to go back in time to eso 5 years ago and be punished for playing a creative build instead of the meta "pureclassing".

sans-culottes

randconfig wrote: »

I don't like this idea lol, why can't subclassing and "pureclassing" just be equal? I don't want to go back in time to eso 5 years ago and be punished for playing a creative build instead of the meta "pureclassing".

“Why can’t subclassing and ‘pureclassing’ just be equal?” Great question. That’s what people are asking. What you’re hearing as a desire to “punish creative builds” is actually a concern that subclassing is becoming functionally mandatory for anyone who doesn’t want to fall behind.

No one’s trying to roll back the clock to five years ago. The request is simple: if class identity is going to be diluted by opening class lines to everyone, then players who choose to stick with their original class should receive support equal to those who don’t.

Erickson9610

randconfig wrote: »

I don't like this idea lol, why can't subclassing and "pureclassing" just be equal? I don't want to go back in time to eso 5 years ago and be punished for playing a creative build instead of the meta "pureclassing".

If Subclassing and Pureclassing are indeed equal, then Class Mastery should just augment Class abilities in general, rather than favoring Pureclassing over Subclassing or vice versa.

I disagree that Subclassing should be made weaker than Pureclassing, but giving more of an incentive to Pureclass would help if it turns out that there's little reason to Pureclass any longer.

randconfig

sans-culottes wrote: »

randconfig wrote: »

I don't like this idea lol, why can't subclassing and "pureclassing" just be equal? I don't want to go back in time to eso 5 years ago and be punished for playing a creative build instead of the meta "pureclassing".

“Why can’t subclassing and ‘pureclassing’ just be equal?” Great question. That’s what people are asking. What you’re hearing as a desire to “punish creative builds” is actually a concern that subclassing is becoming functionally mandatory for anyone who doesn’t want to fall behind.

No one’s trying to roll back the clock to five years ago. The request is simple: if class identity is going to be diluted by opening class lines to everyone, then players who choose to stick with their original class should receive support equal to those who don’t.

"functionally mandatory for anyone who doesn’t want to fall behind", as opposed to what we have now lol?

"players who choose to stick with their original class should receive support equal to those who don’t", how is this not an argument to make "original class" the meta by giving it a special buff, how is that equal?

Sounds more like you're problem is with min-maxing score pushers.

sans-culottes

randconfig wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

randconfig wrote: »

I don't like this idea lol, why can't subclassing and "pureclassing" just be equal? I don't want to go back in time to eso 5 years ago and be punished for playing a creative build instead of the meta "pureclassing".

“Why can’t subclassing and ‘pureclassing’ just be equal?” Great question. That’s what people are asking. What you’re hearing as a desire to “punish creative builds” is actually a concern that subclassing is becoming functionally mandatory for anyone who doesn’t want to fall behind.

No one’s trying to roll back the clock to five years ago. The request is simple: if class identity is going to be diluted by opening class lines to everyone, then players who choose to stick with their original class should receive support equal to those who don’t.

"functionally mandatory for anyone who doesn’t want to fall behind", as opposed to what we have now lol?

"players who choose to stick with their original class should receive support equal to those who don’t", how is this not an argument to make "original class" the meta by giving it a special buff, how is that equal?

Sounds more like you're problem is with min-maxing score pushers.

Ah, the classic bait-and-switch: respond to a call for parity by pretending it’s a demand for supremacy. No one said original class builds should be better. The argument is that they shouldn’t be worse. If opening class lines weakens the viability of pure builds, then balancing measures are warranted.

Calling this “just a problem with min-maxers” is a dodge. The system isn’t only used by score pushers. It affects anyone who wants to run a cohesive build without being nudged into Frankenstein hybrids to keep up. Subclassing can be creative and optional. The problem is when it stops being the latter.

huskandhunger

@ZOS_Icy @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert -- can we get an updated class mastery to accommodate the upcoming subclassing changes? This could be really cool 😎

old_scopie1945

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

If optional subclassing is the cause of pure classes being automatically nerfed then they should have a compensating boost added automatically, not locked behind another optional activity like scribing.

Why not balance across everything so staying pure class is *just as good* as staying multiclass?

I think the people here are sad that their pure-class builds are getting nerfed, not that pure classes in general are getting nerfed.

Petsorc is not getting nerfed for example.

Well said, you have got a handle on the situation, no doubt. Just one caveat. IMO, of course folk are worried about their builds, but there is a concern that all classes will be affected by the nerf hammer.

Juju_beans

Logically pure classes should be stronger than hybrids.

old_scopie1945

Grega wrote: »

I think this xyz% buff to everything if you’re pureclassing should be just flat added, even without the scribing script.

It is the only thing that would prevent exodus of so many players who are not going to subclass if and have already said so.

Your solution sounds like a better option to me. It is a solution that is hopefully an answer to the injustice ZOS is causing with the heavy handed use of the nerf hammer. A situation that fans of the original Pure Class system 'disrespectfully' find themselves in. Subclassing will already be powerful enough (by a long chalk) without added buffs IMO.

Also will not a scribing script take up a slot on your bar. Therefor deigning it for the use of a skill. I do appreciate that this is an honest attempt to address the situation. and all attempts are worthy of appreciation.

Khanmorte

In the Elder Scrolls games since Daggerfall a class is shorthand for a combination of skills. By extending that logic to the ESO "subclassing" discussion, you can argue that there is no pure class or subclass. For example, the Dragonknight Class is the collection of the Ardent Flame, Draconic Power, and Earthen Heart skill lines. The Elementalist Class, for example, is the collection of Ardent Flame, Storm Calling, and Winter's Embrace skill lines.

In the context of this thread I would like to see Class Mastery change based on the selection of skill lines, making them synergise better. For example, let say you have Herald of the Tome, Grave Lord, and Winter's Embrace skill lines then your class mastery becomes something like: "While slotted everytime you would create a corpse you instead create a crux. Every time you could consume a corpse you instead consume a crux. On cast generate a crux every 7s if you have no crux. Frost abilites have an 2% increased chance to per crux to proc the Chilled status effect."

I acknowledge the above example is a bit overloaded but I am trying to illustrate the concept. The biggest challenge will be coming up with something unique for the 945 different combinations

Erickson9610

Khanmorte wrote: »

In the Elder Scrolls games since Daggerfall a class is shorthand for a combination of skills. By extending that logic to the ESO "subclassing" discussion, you can argue that there is no pure class or subclass. For example, the Dragonknight Class is the collection of the Ardent Flame, Draconic Power, and Earthen Heart skill lines. The Elementalist Class, for example, is the collection of Ardent Flame, Storm Calling, and Winter's Embrace skill lines.

In the context of this thread I would like to see Class Mastery change based on the selection of skill lines, making them synergise better. For example, let say you have Herald of the Tome, Grave Lord, and Winter's Embrace skill lines then your class mastery becomes something like: "While slotted everytime you would create a corpse you instead create a crux. Every time you could consume a corpse you instead consume a crux. On cast generate a crux every 7s if you have no crux. Frost abilites have an 2% increased chance to per crux to proc the Chilled status effect."

I acknowledge the above example is a bit overloaded but I am trying to illustrate the concept. The biggest challenge will be coming up with something unique for the 945 different combinations

Oh, that would be really interesting! It would take a lot of work to make a unique effect for every combination of 3 skill lines, but it would be a whole lot more interesting than what we have now.

In specific, since we have 21 unique Class skill lines and can have at most 3 of them (and we can have any combination of those skill lines depending on the base class of our character) then there would be 1330 unique combinations, which would increase to 2024 unique combinations should we get an 8th Class.

That's a lot of work, but I'm sure there's an easy way to generalize an effect depending on the individual skill lines being used — like having Aedric Spear would always add an effect regarding Burning Light, or having Grave Lord would always add an effect regarding Rapid Rot, or something like that. Class Mastery would then be 3 unique effects to augment your equipped skill lines.

moderatelyfatman

@Erickson9610
It sounds good in theory but how do you balance at 30-40% increase in dps?

AngryNecro

It's a terrible idea that Templar and NB won't agree to. And the warden, too. Even a necromancer doesn't agree, rather it just needs a reworking of the record.

Pixiepumpkin

So, more homoginization because of subclassing?

LOL..no, just no. The game is being wrecked enough.

AcadianPaladin

Oakensoul on all characters is the only thing that kept me from rage-quitting ESO after the dumpster fire that was Update 35. As such, my limited skill slots are at a premium. There is no scripted skill that makes the cut - including class mastery so please don't ask me to require a specific skill simply to enjoy remaining a pure class.