Role based queuing for all PVP

GusTheWizard

I think we need role based queuing for PVP, this is getting out of hand with cross heals, multiple healers, dds with 45k health, I know zos has a “play the way you want mind set” but there needs to be some changes in regards to balance.

Here’s what I propose, we have different roles you can queue up as when going into PVP.
You can switch your role at any point provided your group doesn’t already have the maximum amount of that role.

The damage dealer role
•damage abilities deal full damage (what it currently is)
•Healing abilities on allies are 50% weaker (note your own heals are the same)
•33k health cap

The healing role
•Healing abilities heal for the full amount on allies
•Damage abilities deal 50% less damage
•35k health cap

The tank role
•Damage abilities deal 40% less damage
•Healing abilities on allies are 40% weaker (note your own heals are the same)
•No health cap

Also limit the amount of roles that can be in each group
•Cyrodiil and IC groups. 2 tanks max, 2 healers max, dds up to 12

•bg 8 man. 2 tanks max, 1 healer max, dds up to 8

•bg 4 man. 1 tank max, 1 healer max, dds up to 4

This would help balance out a lot of things in pvp, ballgroups stacking cross heals and high heath, bg groups getting 2 healers and never dying, bg groups with 4 dds stacking cross heals and never dying, this would just make the game more balanced over all and you can still “play the way you want” just with certain conditions

you can have as many damage dealers as you want in every group so there’s no reason to queue as the wrong role you’d only be gimping yourself, ALSO ROLES DON’T MATTER IN PVP you don’t need a tank to taunt a boss, this is to stop people from having massive cross heals, high health and full damage without nerfing healers and tanks, if you’re a solo/small group player this won’t effect you much.

gamma71

And that would have the same problem as dungeon as fake tanks ect...

GusTheWizard

gamma71 wrote: »

And that would have the same problem as dungeon as fake tanks ect...

First a tank isn’t required in any pvp content and second if you read the most I said a group can have a full damage dealer team, a tank/healer isn’t required for a bg or an open world group. The point is reducing the amount of people spamming cross heals and stacking max health on full damage builds.

Amottica

Since the limit for DDs is 12 it seems this suggestion is for Cyrodiil.

1. I doubt Zenimax will force such limits in a group in PvP. They do not force or limit a PvE raid group to 2 tanks or 2 healers. They allow the group to form up as they see fit. Why treat PvP in a lesser manner?

2. I do not see Zenimax creating a system where a player is forced to choose a role, and that role alters how their character performs. It does not fit into the ESO design and, as mentioned in the first point, is not in PvE, which is more likely to use pure roles in the most challenging content.

Thank you for sharing, though. Truly.

While I missed the point of 8 man and 4 man, the two salient points I noted apply to all of it.

kargen27

What problem is this going to solve? Organized groups will only adjust to bring the maximum effectiveness to the group with the new restrictions and will still dominate.
What do you do with buffs and debuffs? All you are doing is restricting the roles of members in a group but making very little change to the actual combat dynamics. In a ball group if they stay tight two healers are going to keep heal over time and buffs up on the group for most of the fight if not the entire fight. Part of why they stay tight.
Players not in the group can still run with the ball and heal unless they changed that again. Discord allows players beyond the group to coordinate. So a ball group can have the support of four healers with only two of them actually being in the group. They might need to change out a few skills but an organized group will know what is most effective and use it.

darvaria

What are you aiming for here? A 4 hour queue time?

MedicInTheWild

This just isn't feasible to me.

I do think they should have damage reduction based on health in battle spirit.
I mean if you have 50K base health you shouldn't be able to kill a rat.
I know that things have changed but I remember being called a troll tank for having 27K health back in early days.

I do think they should reduce HOT's based on the current amount on you... ie 20% reduction for each on with lower cap of 10`%, or something of that nature.

But I dont think they should ever limit anyone to que based on role in pvp.

Artim_X

I disagree with this idea completely. Just like solo content, in PvP one can build for damage and survivability.

Battle spirit just needs to be utilized more, like making it so that heal stacking is disabled in PvP.

GusTheWizard

Artim_X wrote: »

I disagree with this idea completely. Just like solo content, in PvP one can build for damage and survivability.

Battle spirit just needs to be utilized more, like making it so that heal stacking is disabled in PvP.

And picking the damage dealer role wouldn’t change most peoples dps builds, you just wouldn’t be able to spam cross heals on allies, the only people it would effect are the ones currently abusing max health.

SkaraMinoc

These sound like tournament rules and not rules for general PvP.

Coo_PnT

This system will never work. Because even now in PvE Dungeon Finder there are many many fake Tanks and healers.
If you do this in PvP, you will just choose the role with the least amount of waiting time.

GusTheWizard

Coo_PnT wrote: »

This system will never work. Because even now in PvE Dungeon Finder there are many many fake Tanks and healers.
If you do this in PvP, you will just choose the role with the least amount of waiting time.

Did you guys not read the post? this is the third comment like this. I said in the post you can have as many dds as you want in any group and if you queue as the WRONG role you physically can not do your role, sure you can queue in as a healer as a dd but there’d be no point because there’s no limit on dd and your damage also is reduced by half so the only person you’d be hurting is yourself.

Erickson9610

GusTheWizard wrote: »

Coo_PnT wrote: »

This system will never work. Because even now in PvE Dungeon Finder there are many many fake Tanks and healers.
If you do this in PvP, you will just choose the role with the least amount of waiting time.

Do you guys not read the post? this is the third comment like this. I said in the post you can have as many dds as you want in any group and if you queue as the WRONG role you physically can not do your role, sure you can queue in as a healer as a dd but there’d be no point because there’s no limit on dd and your damage also is reduced by half so the only person you’d be hurting is yourself.

Imagine the outrage if this system was applied to PvE.

No, ZOS should not enforce the "holy trinity" by making it impossible to do other roles than the one you selected.

Four_Fingers

Please stop trying to change the game I bought and love.

Tommy_The_Gun

Huge buff for Ball Groups, just saying...

zaria

Erickson9610 wrote: »

GusTheWizard wrote: »

Coo_PnT wrote: »

This system will never work. Because even now in PvE Dungeon Finder there are many many fake Tanks and healers.
If you do this in PvP, you will just choose the role with the least amount of waiting time.

Do you guys not read the post? this is the third comment like this. I said in the post you can have as many dds as you want in any group and if you queue as the WRONG role you physically can not do your role, sure you can queue in as a healer as a dd but there’d be no point because there’s no limit on dd and your damage also is reduced by half so the only person you’d be hurting is yourself.

Imagine the outrage if this system was applied to PvE.
No, ZOS should not enforce the "holy trinity" by making it impossible to do other roles than the one you selected.

This, and dungeons are much more structured than battlegrounds not to talk about Cyrodil.
The enemies are static in dungeons just depending on difficulty.

Stamicka

I would use stricter health caps personally, but this is a great idea and I’ve thought about suggesting something similar. The role should give you access to a role specific skill line that provides skills and passives that reinforce the purpose of the role. I think that the tank role should have highly reduced healing done, but slightly increased healing received. The DPS healing reduction should be on a per group member basis. For example “10% less healing per ally in your group up to x%”. This would keep the impact on small groups, especially duos to a minimum while accurately targeting larger groups.

One thing I liked about 5v5 in Overwatch 2 is the fact that there were roles. It added an extra layer of strategy to the gameplay. The game was also a bit more balanced because you couldn’t just have a team of 5 tanks or supports. I always thought that ESO should adopt a similar system.

Stamicka

Erickson9610 wrote: »

GusTheWizard wrote: »

Coo_PnT wrote: »

This system will never work. Because even now in PvE Dungeon Finder there are many many fake Tanks and healers.
If you do this in PvP, you will just choose the role with the least amount of waiting time.

Do you guys not read the post? this is the third comment like this. I said in the post you can have as many dds as you want in any group and if you queue as the WRONG role you physically can not do your role, sure you can queue in as a healer as a dd but there’d be no point because there’s no limit on dd and your damage also is reduced by half so the only person you’d be hurting is yourself.

Imagine the outrage if this system was applied to PvE.

No, ZOS should not enforce the "holy trinity" by making it impossible to do other roles than the one you selected.

I don’t see a big issue even if this was applied to PvE. Normal dungeons maybe shouldn’t have enforced roles, but outside of those I can’t really see this changing anything. What type of properly built PVE tank or healer is putting out decent damage? Or what type of properly built DPS is throwing out heals, especially if there’s a healer in the group? The last time I’ve seen anything remotely similar to what you’re describing was the Zen/MK healer build, but that was years ago. Also OPs suggestion allows people to opt in to a 3 DPS 1 tank comp if that’s what they wanted.

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Huge buff for Ball Groups, just saying...

But where? Most members would have their health capped and their outgoing heals reduced. Cross healing would be decreased significantly since the DPS role outgoing healing is decreased. This suggestion would solve issues in a lot of areas in the game, from vet PvE dungeon queuing, Batlleground balance, and ball groups in Cyrodiil.

Udrath

PvP will never be balanced. They release a lot of sets and skills that eventually get “fixed”. If you ever read patch notes you’ll see stuff like “not working as intended” and bugs.

There are a lot of players who were using those unfixed or not intended sets/skills/etc day one, and probably much longer before it was addressed or everyone became aware of it, and it becomes a meta because it’s stronger than everything else. This has always been an issue.

Jabbs_Giggity

I think the OP is echoing ideas many people have posted themselves. This is obviously gaining traction for an obviously issue for PVP.
Using Battle Spirit is the best way to balance PVP and should be used more.
Selecting a "role" doesn't necessarily need to equate to "queuing", it could simply be like locking to a faction, but in a per entrance to Alliance or BG term.
Having set drawbacks per role is badly needed in PVP, no doubt.
It also makes sense for skills like echoing vigor to be weaker per group member affected. For instance, Vigor heals for 1300 per second, but is reduced for each group member affected. The more people around the more evenly the effect is spread out. If you give off a heal for 1300, two members is would be 50/50, three members 33/33/33...etc.
This alone fixes heal stacking.

Years ago, it was essential to build into what you wanted to accomplish. You were stamina based DPS you built into stamina and damage, but had a drawback on survivability. This needs to be addressed again.

Scribing skills is further abusing PVP retainability large-scale. These should not have 3 affixes. Being not part of base-game, this should operate on being able to "improve" existing skills. For example adding fire damage to a physical skill ability. Or adding 2m range to a melee skill, or adding a minor affix to a skill with no affix.

Jaraal

We already have to queue for Cyrodiil, we don't need to waste even more time queuing for roles on top of it.

Jabbs_Giggity

Jaraal wrote: »

We already have to queue for Cyrodiil, we don't need to waste even more time queuing for roles on top of it.

OP is not suggesting a second "queue" for Cyrodiil. Just a "the role selected upon entering" determines your drawbacks while in said setting. Also, I haven't seen a queue lock in months now because Cyrodiil pop is so low.

Coo_PnT

Wouldn't this proposal solve everything by eliminating or weakening the cross heal for both Cyrodiil and BG?

I totally understand what the OP is saying and how he feels. There are those who would choose the role with the least amount of waiting time because of the potential for abuse if this system is put in place and they just want to enter BG as soon as possible, regardless of who they are. Just my own opinion, but I prefer to have some freedom in my builds and roles.

Major_Mangle

Ye no thank you. There are better approaches than to force people into the "holy trinity" (which is a "relic of the past" design that was never good to begin with).

Amottica

Erickson9610 wrote: »

GusTheWizard wrote: »

Coo_PnT wrote: »

This system will never work. Because even now in PvE Dungeon Finder there are many many fake Tanks and healers.
If you do this in PvP, you will just choose the role with the least amount of waiting time.

Do you guys not read the post? this is the third comment like this. I said in the post you can have as many dds as you want in any group and if you queue as the WRONG role you physically can not do your role, sure you can queue in as a healer as a dd but there’d be no point because there’s no limit on dd and your damage also is reduced by half so the only person you’d be hurting is yourself.

Imagine the outrage if this system was applied to PvE.

No, ZOS should not enforce the "holy trinity" by making it impossible to do other roles than the one you selected.

Yep. Considering we do not have a proper trinity structure in ESO, which is by design, it is so doubtful that Zenimax will start forcing the trinity now since it is unnecessary.

Zenimax is not going to start telling me how to build and how to play the game after years of Play As You Want.

Yes, I read the OP.

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

We already have to queue for Cyrodiil, we don't need to waste even more time queuing for roles on top of it.

OP is not suggesting a second "queue" for Cyrodiil. Just a "the role selected upon entering" determines your drawbacks while in said setting. Also, I haven't seen a queue lock in months now because Cyrodiil pop is so low.

This brings up a good point. We do not need to add more reasons for people to avoid Cyrodiil.

Joy_Division

Fixing the poor balance would be preferable to contrived roles which organized groups are going to exploit anyway