How would you feel about a Sheogorath themed class?

Taril · November 16

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Maybe the next Arcanist Companion will show us that not all Arcanists have anything to do with Hermaeus Mora, lovecraftian horror, or scholarship/knowledge?

I think one of the main issues with such things is the whole prequel effect.

Anything established in ESO has to somehow make sense being completely absent in "Future" titles.

Some of the classes can make sense, due to them being able to fit into things like Destruction magic (Sorc's lightning skills, Dragonknight's fire skills, NB's life drain skills, Warden's ice skills), Alteration magic (NB's stealth, various buff effects from classes), Conjuration magic (Sorc's daedra - Despite being less flappy bird and more sexy flame atronach in the "Future"), Restoration magic (Templar's healing skills) and of course Necromancy magic (Necro as a whole)

Everything else has that issue of "Why does this thing not exist in any form whatsoever after some period of time?"

Like, where's Templar's Aedric Spear in the "Future"? Where's Warden's summoning of Morrowind animals in the "Future"? Where's Dragonknight's dragon skills in the "Future" (Even the literal Dragonborn doesn't get any of DK's dragon skills)?

With classes derived from a specific source, like a Daedric Prince or particular Aedra, you at least have the potential explaination of "Well, said patron stopped granting power to mortals because..." with the option to fill in the blank with any particular reason (Such as in the case of Zerith-var, the Order of the Hidden Moon was destroyed, hence in the "Future" of the current ESO timeline, there are no such Necromancers based on using a Moonclaw to guide Khajiti souls to Azura's embrace)

If something showed up that provided new skills derived not from a godlike patron, there would need to be a similar explanation of why it eventually stops being a thing that exists in the world.

So while it's not the most exciting for RPing a character within ESO itself (Though, such things can be fixed with Skill Styles that alter VFX if they ever get around to such additions), these sorts of concepts more easily fit into the overall lore of the series.

Which of course, is one of the most annoying overall aspects to the particular setting of ESO being before all the other TES games. The limitations applied by needing to explain any absences of things from the "Future".

Syldras · November 16

I would not like that

LikiLoki wrote: »

Daedra worship cults could be introduced into the game, where the player could learn a line of skills from any prince.

I actually like that concept, although I'm not sure whether it might be too late for that, now that there is already one whole class clearly related to one Daedric Prince.

Faulgor wrote: »

- Sorcerer: Daedra summoner, clearly evil

Do you mean the flavor text for the sorcerer skills or daedra summoning in general? Because lorewise, for daedra summoning it is not neccessary to worship a Daedric Prince at all. Of course one could see forcing a being (even if it's a "demonic" being) to obey one's commands as evil by itself, although that's an uncommon opinion - from a lore perspective, I mean. Many sorcerers do it, conjuration is a common school of magic, and it is not regarded as forbidden or evil in Tamriel. The flavor text is a different thing, though, because that indeed implies daedra worship ("Call on Azura to send a winged twilight to fight at your side.") - but honestly, who cares for these text snippets?

Faulgor wrote: »

- Arcanist: Devil worshipper

Funny thing, an arcanist is less of a daedra worshipper than a sorcerer (as in a member of that class in ESO) according to lore texts. Arcanists draw power from the realm of Apocrypha, but they do not neccessarily worship Hermaeus Mora. Even an anti-Mora arcanist who just steals and utilizes the power would be a possible concept.

Faulgor wrote: »

Even if they had to add a Daedra themed class, it should be one of the more benign ones. Like Azura or Sanguine.

Sanguine strives for a mortal's total ruin, by means like addiction and complete moral corruption. I wouldn't call that benign. All offerings by Sanguine, parties, alcohol, whatever, only serve the purpose to lure the mortal in and destroy them.

Erickson9610 wrote: »

But, all things considered, Zerith-var is a great example of how you can make a non-evil Necromancer who uses Necromancer skills for a completely different goal than you'd ordinarily expect.

It has become quite a "negative" trope in fantasy literature. In the real world (people really believed in this once) it wasn't neccessarily immoral. Ancient Greece had the concept of nekyia, for example, with temples dedicated to it. And there are many different cultures world wide who had a neutral or even positive view of this.

It was interesting to see such a positive concept in the game for once. Although I do understand the disappointment of the players who hoped for an "evil" companion, too, as this seemed to be a good opportunity for that.

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Maybe the next Arcanist Companion will show us that not all Arcanists have anything to do with Hermaeus Mora, lovecraftian horror, or scholarship/knowledge?

I'm open for a lot of different concepts, but an anti-intellectual wizard (that's what it is in the end) sounds, uhm... No. Just no!

I don't want a magical evil Rigurt.

TaSheen · November 16

I would not like that

Actually, none of the Daedric princes are truly "benign" when it comes to the races of Tamriel. Even the "good" Daedra - Azura and Meridia - aren't.... really "benevolent" when it comes to the mortals of Tamriel.

I.... don't play my arcanists as related to Herma Mora. I just choose to ignore that whole thing. Adding more Daedric princes to an already "totally non optimal situation".... seems like a REALLY bad idea. And that's on top of my total repudiation/repugnance when it comes to Sheo.

DreamyLu · November 16

I don't care

Will not recreate any new toon ever (unless forced to it for whatever reasons). So I'm not concerned. However, if others can enjoy it, I have nothing against it.

BelmontDrakul · November 16

It would be called Tyromancer, cheese magican

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMgpnoUUOUc

Varana · November 16

I would not like that

Taril wrote: »

I think one of the main issues with such things is the whole prequel effect.

Anything established in ESO has to somehow make sense being completely absent in "Future" titles.

Things like that - i.e. game mechanics and their change through the games - are generally mostly ignored by the lore. Sometimes there's a flimsy attempt at lampshading changes in game mechanics with some lore reason, but very inconsistently and with giant logical holes.

In the end, no - they don't have to justify the disappearance of abilities in later games. Just as the games that came before ESO obviously never cared for ESO stuff.

As for necromancy, there are quite a few traditions in Tamriel that view it as neutral or even with some positive aspects. It's sometimes not called necromancy (like the Dunmer utilising the souls of their dead to ask for guidance or power a giant fence around the bad guy's lair, which is obviously something totally different than necromancy

), but necromantic practices aren't universally despised.

Oh, @topic: Gods, no, not Sheogorath. He's overrated and overused. As for a class, I have no idea what powers people expect while suffering from complete brain rot.

OsUfi · November 16

Sad. We get new classes so rarely, basing Arcanist on a Daedric prince out me off from the start. The hideous neon wad the nail in the coffin. For me my characters are characters, not toons. If I can't think of a personality I like that matches the character and class, I won't use it.

Syldras · November 16

I would not like that

Varana wrote: »

As for necromancy, there are quite a few traditions in Tamriel that view it as neutral or even with some positive aspects. It's sometimes not called necromancy (like the Dunmer utilising the souls of their dead to ask for guidance or power a giant fence around the bad guy's lair, which is obviously something totally different than necromancy ), but necromantic practices aren't universally despised.

The definition of what is necromancy and what not varies from culture to culture in Tamriel, which I find realistic, as it's the same in real life.

For Dunmer, confering with their dead ancestors who freely choose to stay with the living members of their family, to council them or protect the family property (or, in case of the Ghostfence, their people - although in that particular case, lore exists that there indeed was debate whether it is correct to bring one's ancestor's remains to the fence instead of keeping them in the family home or family's ancestral grave, as it had been tradition until the problem with Dagoth Ur began), is a normal part of life. If you talk to grandpa, it makes no difference if he's living and in his corporal form, or dead and in spirit form, it's the same person, literally nothing changes (I find it a pity, btw, that it is described in ESO lore that living Dunmer and their dead ancestors live together or at least discuss important matters with each other, but very rarely do we actually see it in the game). Forcing spirits or dead bodies, on the other hand, is defined as necromancy by Dunmer and is seen as extremely sacrilegious, exactly because of that. It goes against honoring the ancestors (and ancestral veneration is extremely important in Dunmer culture), it goes against respecting elders, and the Dunmer being a honor-focussed society makes it even more extreme.

Of course, there are cultures who don't differenciate, because they do not have this special relation to their ancestors. For them, the world of the living and the world of the dead are completely seperated, so everything that goes against this rule is somehow creepy and "dark magic" - and in the end "necromancy".

OsUfi wrote: »

For me my characters are characters, not toons. If I can't think of a personality I like that matches the character and class, I won't use it.

Same for me. I never had any problem imagining a character interested in Apocryphean secrets, though. In the end it's always a question of personal taste, some people can't relate to a Mora cultist or explorer of Apocrypha, others don't know why they'd play an assassin or a nature/druid type like the warden. It's the same "problem" for every class.

Soarora · November 16

I would not like that

I love Sheogorath, he’s one of my favorite Princes. But ZOS’s writing of him is REALLY BAD. I’d rather they stop referencing him at all than continue to contribute to the idea that this terrifying Prince is all fun and games and “I love cheese”. Every time, they fail to make us feel the sinister side of him and the writing falls terribly flat. (Like yes, the mages guild questline, he is torturing people. But he’s treated like a child by every NPC. He doesn’t have any chilling back-and-forth when speaking to us like in Skyrim and Oblivion).

Dark_Lord_Kuro · November 16

I would not like that

I would rather have a dwemer artificer kind of class. I saw a class design on this forum a while back. It was really cool, you sommoned construct and some skill would energise the construct, making them stronger. I kinda forgot most of it but it was awesome. The guy even gave a dlc story line to tie it all togeter. I think it was brass legion or something along those line.

Im also completely uninterested by sheo

Silaf · November 16

I would not like that

I rather have a "religious" skilline where all characters can pick an ardra or daedric prince to follow. Maybe a little storyline to go with it.

Danikat · November 16

It would depend on how the class was designed

I agree with a lot of the points made so far. An illusion/trickery or chaotic class could be interesting, but tying it to one specific daedric prince limits player creativity and character customisation and Sheogorath is already over-represented compared to other daedric princes so that would actually be one of the less interesting choices at this point.

If ZOS wanted to go down that route I'd prefer them to do something more generic and then players could choose to make their character a follower of Sheogorath or give them a different backstory if they prefered.

PrincessOfThieves · November 16

I would not like that

I like Sheogorath, but I don't want a Sheogorath-themed class. If anything, it would be kinda problematic in terms of portrayal of mental illness. Sheogorath has a reputation of a "funny cheese dude", but being influenced by him is anything but funny. And anything he gives you is likely to backfire - see Wabbajack, Staff of Everscamp etc.
If they introduce a new class, I would like to see a dwemer/clockwork themed tinkerer class or something.

Varana · November 16

I would not like that

Syldras wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

As for necromancy, there are quite a few traditions in Tamriel that view it as neutral or even with some positive aspects. It's sometimes not called necromancy (like the Dunmer utilising the souls of their dead to ask for guidance or power a giant fence around the bad guy's lair, which is obviously something totally different than necromancy ), but necromantic practices aren't universally despised.

The definition of what is necromancy and what not varies from culture to culture in Tamriel, which I find realistic, as it's the same in real life.

Which is, I think, what I said as well.

As for the Dunmer - it should also be noted that this strong condemnation of what they define as necromancy mostly applies to the necromantic use of Dunmer souls. The taboo against other elves or men, or animals, is by far not that strong, and some Telvanni have become master necromancers (just not with Dunmer).
So even fo Dunmer, and even when humouring their hypocritical context-dependent

aversion to necromancy, the practice isn't universally reviled.

Syldras · November 16

I would not like that

Varana wrote: »

As for the Dunmer - it should also be noted that this strong condemnation of what they define as necromancy mostly applies to the necromantic use of Dunmer souls. The taboo against other elves or men, or animals, is by far not that strong, and some Telvanni have become master necromancers (just not with Dunmer).

I'd say that comes down to the usual sense of superiority, or to seeing betmer as tools instead of people, which is nothing new. Although I wouldn't consider House Telvanni to be a good example for the Dunmer people in total - other Dunmer Houses see them as having morals deviating from the norm, after all. I'm very sure that the average Redoran or Indoril has a different view on necromancy than the average Telvanni.

Varana wrote: »

So even fo Dunmer, and even when humouring their hypocritical context-dependent aversion to necromancy, the practice isn't universally reviled.

I'm not sure I might misunderstand you, but what do you mean with "hypocritical" in this case? That necromancy is a taboo towards their own people, but not towards others, or that there's a differenciation between interaction with ancestral spirits and other types of interaction with the dead?

Because in the latter case, I see a very clear distinction. "Family spirits remaining at home and continuing to protect the family including answering the calls of living ancestors who ask for counsel" and "forcing random spirits into service" is different, just like "going to one's grandpa and asking him for help or him willingly defending his family" and "Violently forcing him to fight or talk when he actually just wants to be left alone" are different things. The main aspect is voluntariness. Dunmer spirits linger with their family, so it's just normal, nothing sinister or magical, to talk to them.

Now I'd truly love to see more of this actually in game. We have lore books about it, we have Dunmer talking about it in dialogues, but it's is mysteriously almost never seen. Another case where they could have made much more about it, to give TES' cultures a more unique cultural background and way of living.

Hapexamendios · November 16

So you're basically asking for your character to be completely insane and uncontrollable.

Syldras · November 16

I would not like that

Hapexamendios wrote: »

So you're basically asking for your character to be completely insane and uncontrollable.

From what we've seen in different TES games (TES Oblivion Shivering Isles, Sheo worshippers in Morrowind and Oblivion, TES Legends,...), people "touched by Sheogorath" might have delusions or compulsions, but they're not neccessarily completely out of self-control.

Tandor · November 16

I would not like that

Apart from turning Manimarco into cheese, I'm not clear what skill lines a Sheogorath themed class would bring to ESO.

Syldras · November 16

I would not like that

Tandor wrote: »

I'm not clear what skill lines a Sheogorath themed class would bring to ESO.

They'd probably just make something up, from "swarm of healing butterflies" to "summon a creature from the Shivering Isles". It's not like Apocrypha lore had books shooting energy beams before. In the end, the visuals and the lore bits about them are mostly mere cosmetics.

Lugaldu · November 16

Other (Please specify)

Well, we have the Arcanist and Mora, but that should remain an exception. Otherwise, you could request separate classes for all other Daedra and Aedra. Although... actually, I think a Peryite class would not be bad - you turn into a dragon, throw pestilence balls around, poison your enemies, summon sick zombies...

Taril · November 16

Syldras wrote: »

Hapexamendios wrote: »

So you're basically asking for your character to be completely insane and uncontrollable.

From what we've seen in different TES games (TES Oblivion Shivering Isles, Sheo worshippers in Morrowind and Oblivion, TES Legends,...), people "touched by Sheogorath" might have delusions or compulsions, but they're not neccessarily completely out of self-control.

To say nothing of the fact that at various times throughout the series, player characters are able to build a rapport with Uncle Sheo while not being sent insane by him.

Meaning that, while he definitely likes to make people mad. He can derive pleasure from mortals remaining sane. Gifting some people power (Or someone stealing it if they weren't fond of him) doesn't necessarily have to cause them to become insane. Especially if they're still amusing Sheo regardless.

Tandor wrote: »

Apart from turning Manimarco into cheese, I'm not clear what skill lines a Sheogorath themed class would bring to ESO.

Well, there's the trickery/illusion theme. Which presents a lot of opportunities (And can be a source of the Illusion style spells from the Illusion school of magic we know from other TES titles)

There's also Curses/Bargains theme. Taking something like Malevolent Offering's self damage or Render Flesh's self debuffing but extending it to an entire skill line themed around skills with different side effects (Not necessarily always self sabotaging, it could provide benefits to the opponent... Which can be stripped away with other skills from the class)

SilverBride · November 16

I would like that

I find Uncle Sheo to be obnoxious, deceitful, egotistical and nutty as a fruitcake, and I love him.

Castagere · November 16

Other (Please specify)

I think ZOS painted themselves in a corner with the game's hard-lined classes. It's the only TES game where character freedom is gone. Even Morrowind lets you create custom classes. You could even pick the star you were born under. Look at how popular Skyrim is still after 10-plus years. Even the racial passives here are mostly wrong. It's just one of the reasons why people get bored and take breaks from the game. They could have easily come up with a skill tree like Skyrim has. And before anyone says it wouldn't work because of PVP that's just stupid. A game called Ascension Wow lets you pick any abilities from any class you want in your build and works amazingly in PVP. So it can be done.

Varana · November 17

I would not like that

Syldras wrote: »

I'm not sure I might misunderstand you, but what do you mean with "hypocritical" in this case? That necromancy is a taboo towards their own people, but not towards others, or that there's a differenciation between interaction with ancestral spirits and other types of interaction with the dead?

Because in the latter case, I see a very clear distinction. "Family spirits remaining at home and continuing to protect the family including answering the calls of living ancestors who ask for counsel" and "forcing random spirits into service" is different, just like "going to one's grandpa and asking him for help or him willingly defending his family" and "Violently forcing him to fight or talk when he actually just wants to be left alone" are different things. The main aspect is voluntariness.

Both, but mostly the latter.

First, nowhere does it say that necromancy is necessarily the forceful summoning of souls. To make that distinction, is already part of the bias. Bringing the spirits of the dead back into this world, or using their spiritual energy to power contraptions on this side - with their consent or not - is necromancy. Or can be called such.

And second, not all dealings with ancestors are consensual, even for Dunmer. "Some spirits are bound against their wills to protect family shrines. This unpleasant fate is reserved for those who have not served the family faithfully in life. Dutiful and honorable ancestral spirits often aid in the capture and binding of wayward spirits. These spirits usually go mad, and make terrifying guardians." (Ancestors and the Dunmer) Bonewalkers and bonelords are created like this, and they do a great job of making the distinction pure sophistry. Calling the participation in powering the Ghostfence "consensual" is also at least debatable, as families don't have a choice but to have their ancestors take part in its maintenance.

Syldras · November 17

I would not like that

Varana wrote: »

Both, but mostly the latter.
First, nowhere does it say that necromancy is necessarily the forceful summoning of souls. To make that distinction, is already part of the bias.

How can it be called hypocrisy if cultures have different definitions of things? Who defines what the "real definition" is? What makes, let's say, the Imperial definition more correct than the definition of the Dunmer or of the Argonians?

Varana wrote: »

Bringing the spirits of the dead back into this world, or using their spiritual energy to power contraptions on this side - with their consent or not - is necromancy. Or can be called such.

A Dunmer who prays for guidance at their family's shrine is a necromancer as soon as an ancestor decides to show up to answer? Because that's literally how most of the interaction between Dunmer and their ancestor's spirits looks like. It's not much different to how in the real world some people have a shrine to their ancestors or talk to their dead parents at their grave - just that in the real world, no ghost will appear. What TES, or specially Morrowind did, seems like a fantasy version of this (especially knowing which real world cultures the writer Michael Kirkbride was inspired from) - a world where the spirits actually appear, talk and fight. Of course he developed it further, to things like the Ghostfence, bone walkers, etc, based on the question of what a society might do if this was truly possible.

Varana wrote: »

And second, not all dealings with ancestors are consensual, even for Dunmer. "Some spirits are bound against their wills to protect family shrines. This unpleasant fate is reserved for those who have not served the family faithfully in life. Dutiful and honorable ancestral spirits often aid in the capture and binding of wayward spirits. These spirits usually go mad, and make terrifying guardians." (Ancestors and the Dunmer)

Yes, this is comparable to the punishment of criminals. It's not even clear whether these spirits are still considered a real part of the family, as Dunmer culture knows disownment.

But, since you quote from "Ancestors and the Dunmer", I don't think this part should be left out:

This book was written by an unknown scholar as a guide for foreign visitors to Morrowind shortly after the Armistice was signed. Many of these practices have since fallen into disfavor.

Generally, I'm wondering now what time exactly we are talking about. There are differences in religious habits and burial culture through the eras (I wish Necrom would have created more lore about that, but I'm repeating myself). Are we talking about ESO? Than discussing the Ghostfence shouldn't be a thing because it doesn't exist yet.

Toanis · November 17

Cosmo_Nova wrote: »

A Templar, for example, can be imagined as a servant to any Divine, the Tribunal, or Meridia - either way the visuals still make perfect sense. Sorcerers use generic destruction and conjuration spells that fit for any mage or spellsword or Daedric cultist type. Arcanist, though? You are using glowing green runes and tentacles and eyeball monsters. It doesn't really leave you much room to imagine your character as anything except a Mora worshiper.

Nightblade and Dragonknight also share a theme with a Dadric Prince, yet we assume that they tap the same power source rather than being worshippers imitating their master.

The general idea of lovecraftian creatures is that they aren't really weird blobs of eyes and tentacles, but what we see is actually our mind (or our universe itself) trying to make sense of them, a mortal creature growing lava spikes on their back isn't any more natural than their arm turning into something our mind can only interprete as a mass of tentacles.

Mora is actually quite unlikely to directly grant powers to his followers because he has no ambition regarding the mortal world aside from observing and recording everything that happens. He doesn't interfere unless something threatens the integrity of his records. Sure, the Arcanist feels like a GOO Warlock, but their powers are more likely to be obtained by looking at the right places. The knowledge where to look can again come from Mora (in trade for another piece of knowledge), from browsing ancient libraries, or from that book Sheogorath gave you.

As for Sheogorath: How would madness manifest in game? A Cheese and butterflies themed mage? Weird dialogue where you seem to have forgotten basic knowledge or things that happened 5 minutes ago? A berserk mode where you randomly can't seem to leave combat?

karthrag_inak · November 17

I would not like that

khajiit finds sheogorath to be most obnoxious, which was obviously the intention.