I’m still befuddled by the Tanlorin quest-chain “twist.” (Avast, there be spoilers)

Varana

After reading through this thread, I'm baffled.

I've just played through Tanlorin's storyline. (It's very easy to get the necessary rapport, fortunately.)

And not even once did their gender play any role in that whole story, except for the consistent use of "they" when talking about them.
That's it. If they hadn't "revealed" their gender before, you literally wouldn't know from their story and dialogue. It never comes up as a reason why they felt misunderstood or were ousted from their family - because that is not the reason. The relationship with Wisteria - gender isn't even mentioned, just in line with how that is treated in all the other non-heterosexual relationships. What the Garland Ring and their goals are about, has nothing to do with it.
Tanlorin has a tic with pronouns and a slightly unusual hair colour.

So, how is that activism? How is Tanlorin's gender even remotely relevant for how well or badly written or voiced or whatever you think they are? What are we even talking about?

Like much of the "discussion" in social media around this topic, this thread has circled around topics and themes that aren't even mentioned in the character's story. And I find it both interesting and unfortunate that just the mentioning of "they're nonbinary" can lead to very far-reaching conclusions or assumptions without even having looked at the thing.

Juomuuri

I think people are taking issue with the poor writing of the questline in general, the plot etc in this case. And these being poorly written give ammo to the bigots who can say "well, Tanlorin sucks because they are nonbinary!" even tho it's the writing here, not the character themself.

Syldras

Varana wrote: »

So, how is that activism? How is Tanlorin's gender even remotely relevant for how well or badly written or voiced or whatever you think they are? What are we even talking about?

We are talking about the concept of "Calling one-self non-binary, having a certain hair style, colored hair and using they/them pronouns" being a very specific idea for "feeling to be between male and female", one that is very much limited on real world, modern, Western (mostly USA, initially). Why do we have to see a copy of this in a fantasy game and not something Tamriel-specific?

Juomuuri wrote: »

I think people are taking issue with the poor writing of the questline in general, the plot etc in this case. And these being poorly written give ammo to the bigots who can say "well, Tanlorin sucks because they are nonbinary!" even tho it's the writing here, not the character themself.

Have you even read the thread? If this is bigotry to you, I don't know what to say:

Syldras wrote: »

A very narrow idea in design (contemporary, Western, Gen Z), that not even other people who don't conform to their society's gender norms (no matter whether they're trans, intersex or non-stereotypical behaving cis people) can relate to, if they have a different cultural background, a different age, or just not part of this very specific scene.
I think it's a pity since this is a fantasy game and if they wanted to thematize this at all, they could have focused on Tanlorin's feeling of self and how that plays out in Altmer society instead of just copypasting the current Western modern concept. I think more people could have understood that, because feelings are human and universal, while specific cultural identity concepts are not.

I know I might not be up to date with current sentiments of what's "the right thing to do", but wishing for a broader, less cultural-restricted concept that makes a narration also understandable and relatable for other cultures (including people who don't conform to their culture's gender norms in these other cultures) seems like a good thing to me. That would be actual diversity.

Edit: Typos.

Juomuuri

Syldras wrote: »

Have you even read the thread? If this is bigotry to you, I don't know what to say:

I prefer not to write a full on essay on what a bigot would actually say, so I just added the "sucks" there. I know full well that bad representation is bad, I've read the whole thread thank you very much.

Syldras

Juomuuri wrote: »

I prefer not to write a full on essay on what a bigot would actually say, so I just added the "sucks" there. I know full well that bad representation is bad, I've read the whole thread thank you very much.

I think we all know that bigots exist. But why bring it into this thread when this is not an issue here? This is one of the most civilized and open-minded threads I've seen on this forum.

Juomuuri

I am not talking about there being bigots here in this thread, but in general. This is not the only place where this subject is discussed, I did see a lot of bigoted takes in other threads earlier (and those threads were closed by mods).

Varana

Syldras wrote: »

I know I might not be up to date with current sentiments of what's "the right thing to do", but wishing for a broader, less cultural-restricted concept that makes a narration also understandable and relatable for other cultures (including people who don't conform to their culture's gender norms in these other cultures) seems like a good thing to me. That would be actual diversity.

That's what they did, with making Tanlorin's ostracism about her abilities and behaviour not fitting into a strict rules-based society with predetermined places for everyone. Non-conformity, but not because of gender roles.
The non-binary thing is completely incidental to the character. Every way of showing a non-binary identification is culture-specific. At least the American idea is broadly understandable for the general audience of the game, so taking it as a starting point is not the worst idea (with the added and probably more important benefit of being the writers' culture).

But then, you don't misunderstand the character if you don't get that. Tanlorin's story is about being an outcast, finding acceptance, dealing with betrayal, and growing up. In general, not because of gender.
Maybe not the best writing they ever did, and imho severely hampered by how short it had to be, but it is more broad than just about a specific expression of gender identity.

spartaxoxo

Syldras wrote: »

We are talking about the concept of "Calling one-self non-binary, having a certain hair style, colored hair and using they/them pronouns" being a very specific idea for "feeling to be between male and female", one that is very much limited on real world, modern, Western (mostly USA, initially). Why do we have to see a copy of this in a fantasy game and not something Tamriel-specific?

What's wrong with they/them pronouns being used in the relevant regions? The Elder Scrolls have made plenty of real world references in the past. There's way more than "activists" that use those pronouns in the USA. Ultimately, a writer's culture will influence their writing. Those pronouns are real representation. I've seen young people here in my city use them.

I can't play the story yet. Is Tanlorin's hair color explained? It looks like it's tied to their unique relationship with soul magic to me based on the promo material.

Syldras

Varana wrote: »

Every way of showing a non-binary identification is culture-specific.

The question remains: Why not make up one for Altmer culture instead of just copying one specific one from the real world? With a completely new, Altmer-specific concept, every player would at least be on the same level when being introduced to it, which would be nice, unifying in a way.

Varana wrote: »

At least the American idea is broadly understandable for the general audience of the game

It is - if the main premise is that the game is made for Americans. Which I doubt, considering that it is marketed world-wide and different fully voiced translations exist. Also, I'm not really sure whether you might over-estimate people's knowledge about the American "nonbinary" concept. Most people elsewhere do not know it, and I think not every American either.

The specific pronouns were already causing confusion, especially in localisations where "they/them" or in general gender-neutral pronouns do not exist, and where completely new pronouns were made up for Tanlorin. People were thinking it was some weird typo first, and then they didn't get why exactly Tanlorin would be the only character who is talked about in a different way than everyone else (which also leads to people just saying "she" - look at the forum discussions in other languages - because they don't get what the whole thing is about). So much for "broadly understandable".

I know TES has often referenced specific real world culture(s) in the past, but I still think it would have been better writing to have a more universal approach especially in this case. As I said: Focus on Tanlorin's view of self, without making the character design a copy of one specific real world idea. If one wants to evoke understanding, it doesn't help to refer very specificly to an "insider topic" (sorry, but that's what it is to most people) that many people just don't get.

The question shouldn't be why Tanlorin's design shouldn't be related so much to the real world - the question should be why it should, given we have a wonderful fantasy world as a background where every kind of idea would be possible.

So yes, in the end it is criticism of the writing quality, as usual.

spartaxoxo

Tanlorin isn't the first character with they/them pronouns. Some people refer them as she specifically to misgender. Some are genuinely confused.

A lot of the backlash against Tanlorin seems entirely tied to accurate non-binary representation through the use of those pronouns. I think people learning it's not a big deal and not all of Tanlorin is, is a positive thing for representation. More non-binary representation in media can increase understanding.

Syldras

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Tanlorin isn't the first character with they/them pronouns.

I have read that Martina (Azandar's friend) was in the original (English) version? In some translations, Martina was refered to as "she". So don't be too sure that the translations are completely identical to the English text.

There are also gendered title changes, like the Impesario being called Impresaria in some translations, of even name changes like Julian Catous in the Scholarium being Juliane Catous in some translations. Of even completely weird cases where it's absolutely unclear why the name was changed, like the name of the appartment seller Felande Demarie being changed to Ferande Demar.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Some people refer them as she specifically to misgender. Some are genuinely confused.

I don't doubt that some do it deliberately, but I think that some people are genuinely confused (and not only a few, when it comes to some non-English languages) is unfortunate enough.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

A lot of the backlash against Tanlorin seems entirely tied to accurate non-binary representation through the use of those pronouns.

"Accurate" for one specific culture (and not even that because not every "non-binary" person uses these pronouns), which ignores the hundreds of different cultures of Earth - cultures where people between male and female also exist, but view themselves completely differently, have a different pronoun use (which might not be special or gender-neutral pronouns), etc., and therefore can't relate to the specific American "nonbinary" concept.

I know that not every single culture can be represented in game, and this is exactly the reason why I'd love to see a broader approach instead of a cultural specific one. It is a fantasy game, it would be possible to focus on a broader or Tamriel-specific approach which would in the end feel more inclusive to the people it concerns in the real world - no matter their cultural background.

Also, I always favour more creativity and I'd love Tamriel to be a thing on its own, with its own concepts and ideas, without copying the real world too much. Which I know happens, and I have criticized several times, in different concepts. Actually it was something I just thought about again yesterday when playing Zerith-var's quests, where I disliked that my character has to utter confusion and astonishment in one situation (there is no alternative dialogue option), while for him as a Dunmer (culturally familiar with the "Good Daedra" as well as ancestral spirits being around), the thing that happened would be something completely normal he wouldn't bat an eye about. But the game forces us to reply from a real world perspective instead where spirits and such would be something wondrous and strange.

spartaxoxo

Syldras wrote: »

I have read that Martina (Azandar's friend) was in the original (English) version? In some translations, Martina was refered to as "she". So don't be too sure that the translations are completely identical to the English text.

I never said that the translations are completely identical. They aren't. But in English, they/them is common enough. And ultimately, there are many references to specific cultures sprinkled all throughout the game. There's really no reason to exclude non-binary people that use such pronouns from that, imo.

I don't doubt that some do it deliberately, but I think that some people are genuinely confused (and not only a few, when it comes to some non-English languages) is unfortunate enough.

It is unfortunate. Which is why representation helping people to better understand other groups is nice. Ultimately, I don't think they need to exclude real world gender groups from the game. They have explored gender non-conforming characters in a way that's more broad. But, they can also choose more specific references. They have both in this game in the past. Not just in this topic but on others too. They do a good job of weaving current references with more creative or old things, and I don't see Tanlorin as any different than that.

Syldras

Maybe someone can explain to me: What are the arguments against a broader execution of the idea "person who feels to be neither male or female, both or inbetween" that also people who can't identify with the specific American concept of "non-binary" could relate to?

Indeed some individuals of other cultures find it sad that it's always the one same concept that the media reproduce, sometimes even that much that there seems to be no space left for different cultural ideas about the topic (you know, actual diversity). It's a thing people are talking about in their communities. Not only when it comes to what is put into the "non-binary" box today, also when it comes to topics like trans or homosexuality/same-sex attraction, by the way.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I never said that the translations are completely identical. They aren't.

You said that players should be familiar with Tanlorin's they/them pronouns because Tanlorin wasn't the first ESO character that uses them. I informed you that Tanlorin might indeed be in some of the translations.

spartaxoxo

Syldras wrote: »

Maybe someone can explain to me: What are the arguments against a broader execution of the idea "person who feels to be neither male or female, both or inbetween" that also people who can't identify with the specific American concept of "non-binary" could relate to?

There is no argument against that, imo. The problem comes when this becomes exclusive and exclusionary towards other depictions. We can have characters like Vivec and Tanlorin. There's really no reason that a particular cultures concepts need to be excluded. It's should moreso about how they are executed.

Syldras wrote: »

Indeed some individuals of other cultures find it sad that it's always the one same concept that the media reproduce, sometimes even that much that there seems to be no space left for different cultural ideas about the topic (you know, actual diversity). It's a thing people are talking about in their communities. Not only when it comes to what is put into the "non-binary" box today, also when it comes to topics like trans or homosexuality/same-sex attraction, by the way.

Very little media depicts people who use they/them pronouns.

You said that players should be familiar with Tanlorin's they/them pronouns because Tanlorin wasn't the first ESO character that uses them. I informed you that Tanlorin might indeed be in some of the translations.

No. I said simply that they aren't the first. I went on to say some were misgendering on purpose while others were genuinely confused. My point wasn't that people should be familiar with their pronouns but that Tanlorin's gender is not a new and unique concept to ESO. And that characters like Tanlorin can increase understanding.

Elsonso

spartaxoxo wrote: »

A lot of the backlash against Tanlorin seems entirely tied to accurate non-binary representation through the use of those pronouns. I think people learning it's not a big deal and not all of Tanlorin is, is a positive thing for representation. More non-binary representation in media can increase understanding.

My big thing is accurate representation in Elder Scrolls society. I assume that once that is established, pronouns will follow along nicely. Given that the prevailing Lore suggests that there is no gender divide, all that needs to happen is that ZOS writers handle it accordingly.

I do get that a lot of Altmer are bigots, but that seems to be more along racial lines, not sex or gender lines.

Syldras

spartaxoxo wrote: »

There is no argument against that, imo. The problem comes when this becomes exclusive and exclusionary towards other depictions. We can have characters like Vivec and Tanlorin. There's really no reason that a particular cultures concepts need to be excluded. It's should moreso about how they are executed.
Very little media depicts people who use they/them pronouns.

It's not about excluding, it's the opposite: To be more inclusive also for other cultural concepts. And the way this might happen, since we cannot include every different concept there is on Earth, would be to broaden the depiction or make something specific for Tamriel, so our different real world concepts don't matter and none of them is advantaged or disadvantaged.

As I'm not from the US, I can't speak of the situation in the USA of course, but in my country, many media pick the topic up (one could even say it's currently hyped - with all up- and downsides that come with something becoming a big media topic), and it's always the same very specific depiction. Same goes for RPGs who have picked the topic up within the last few years (there are several). It goes so far that the idea of minority groups (how they are, how they view themselves, how they should be treated and how one should talk about them) has become very narrow. So narrow even that many people can't imagine something else and are completely baffled (or refuse to believe) if there are individuals who don't fit this narrow concept. A broader depiction would be more inclusive, and it's inclusiveness and diversity we strive for, or not?

The big question I'm wondering about is whether people who identify with the term "non-binary" would mind if there was a more general depiction in ESO that also speaks to people with a similar, but culturally different, way of identifying?

As a personal example: Also the concept of "gay" varies from culture to culture. There are non-Western cultures who very much believe that it includes expressing oneself in a way that is considered to be typical for the opposite gender - usually meaning they expect gay men to act femininely. There are even cultures where gay men would use forms of speech for themselves that are considered female. Not my personal idea of being gay, but for some people of these cultures, that's an important part of their identity. And there are other concepts of how gay people behave, what they like, what they do, how they should be seen, worldwide. As not every single one of these ideas can be portrayed in media, I think the best would be to focus on the one thing we have in common: Being attracted to people of the same sex. No matter if that's the only thing we consider part of our "being gay", or whether we think it includes certain interests, mannerisms, a different way or speech (or any other cultural idea related to "being gay") or not. And to add: If there was a specific cultural idea about being gay in Tamriel or different cultures of Tamriel, I'd be totally fine with that!

PrincessOfThieves

spartaxoxo wrote: »

We can have characters like Vivec and Tanlorin.

Vivec uses male pronouns, though, so there's no issues with adapting pronouns in different translations. And he is a hermaphrodite which is a bit different than being non-binary in a modern sense of the word (according to his author, he is inspired by a Hindu deity called Ardhanarishvara).
Iirc back in the glory days of Tumblr there was an idea of him using xe/xir as his preferred pronouns, but that never really took off. That is a problem with neopronouns - even in English it's kinda difficult to make people use them. And it is much more problematic in languages that are more gendered. In some languages you have masculine and feminine nouns and adjectives, and in some even verbs are gendered so trying to add new pronouns is a monumental task. And in other languages there's no gendered pronouns whatsoever. As far as I know, many nonbinary people who speak those more "gendered" languages just use male/female forms, often preferring the male version.
Point is, it is easy to use they/them in English, but unfortunately it's not always easy to localize it.

Juomuuri wrote: »

I think people are taking issue with the poor writing of the questline in general, the plot etc in this case. And these being poorly written give ammo to the bigots who can say "well, Tanlorin sucks because they are nonbinary!" even tho it's the writing here, not the character themself.

Yes, it is super annoying. There is another fantasy game that was released recently that includes a non-binary companion, and that companion is apparently not so well-written. And now youtube grifters are using this character to tear down the game and influence their viewers. You can of course ignore these people like you do with trolls, but the audience of these channels consists of real people with voting rights... I guess I don't really need to continue.
It really sucks that characters that are created for a positive purpose such as representation are weaponized like this, but this is just how things are at the moment.

Varana

With a bit more time, I think you're very much exaggerating the "American concept" thing.

The only thing about Tanlorin that may fall into that category is the use of they/them. And that's more a quirk of the English language (which is, after all, the language that this game and this game world is written in, translations always come second).
Absolutely nothing else in Tanlorin's character is about their nonbinary gender identity, in whatever cultural form. They did not transpose a specific American idea into Tamriel. This is mostly a prime example of hearing the "non-binary character" pitch and then free-form snowballing from there based on what we assume about how this must be handled.

Syldras

Varana wrote: »

With a bit more time, I think you're very much exaggerating the "American concept" thing.
The only thing about Tanlorin that may fall into that category is the use of they/them. And that's more a quirk of the English language (which is, after all, the language that this game and this game world is written in, translations always come second).
Absolutely nothing else in Tanlorin's character is about their nonbinary gender identity, in whatever cultural form. They did not transpose a specific American idea into Tamriel. This is mostly a prime example of hearing the "non-binary character" pitch and then free-form snowballing from there based on what we assume about how this must be handled.

The significance of pronouns. Using the term "non-binary" in the announcement instead of a broader term. The physical depiction with tattoos, colourful hair and even that hairstyle. Even that the character is physically female is part of the cliché. If media want to design a "character identifying as neither male nor female", it's always this. There's already discourse about this, there are media articles about this, and if you don't believe it, you can throw the term "non-binary person" into an AI picture generator, generate 10 pictures and look at the results.

What is the problem with wishing for more diversity in depictions?

wilykcat

Syldras wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

With a bit more time, I think you're very much exaggerating the "American concept" thing.
The only thing about Tanlorin that may fall into that category is the use of they/them. And that's more a quirk of the English language (which is, after all, the language that this game and this game world is written in, translations always come second).
Absolutely nothing else in Tanlorin's character is about their nonbinary gender identity, in whatever cultural form. They did not transpose a specific American idea into Tamriel. This is mostly a prime example of hearing the "non-binary character" pitch and then free-form snowballing from there based on what we assume about how this must be handled.

The significance of pronouns. Using the term "non-binary" in the announcement instead of a broader term. The physical depiction with tattoos, colourful hair and even that hairstyle. Even that the character is physically female is part of the cliché. If media want to design a "character identifying as neither male nor female", it's always this. There's already discourse about this, there are media articles about this, and if you don't believe it, you can throw the term "non-binary person" into an AI picture generator, generate 10 pictures and look at the results.

What is the problem with wishing for more diversity in depictions?

Speaking of ai, I managed to create a non-binary identifying elf like Tanlorin below.
Looks like a cross between male and female based on the facial features so the character is neither. Non-binary is a gender identity which means a person doesn't identify as male or female. I'm one of those myself.

The problem with more diversity in video games is it could stir the pot. There is a side that appreciates it and another side that doesn't, are always in conflict. When a developer adds in a new character companion into the game with story quests, lore, and abilities, everyone is going to have his/her(their) own preferences on those certain topics about the character.

For me, the character I created in the game and play on every day represents me. A very spunky non-binary khajiit who has a good sense of humor, always looking for adventure, is creative, and is part of every guild in the game. and is best friends with ember.

spartaxoxo

Syldras wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

With a bit more time, I think you're very much exaggerating the "American concept" thing.
The only thing about Tanlorin that may fall into that category is the use of they/them. And that's more a quirk of the English language (which is, after all, the language that this game and this game world is written in, translations always come second).
Absolutely nothing else in Tanlorin's character is about their nonbinary gender identity, in whatever cultural form. They did not transpose a specific American idea into Tamriel. This is mostly a prime example of hearing the "non-binary character" pitch and then free-form snowballing from there based on what we assume about how this must be handled.

The significance of pronouns. Using the term "non-binary" in the announcement instead of a broader term. The physical depiction with tattoos, colourful hair and even that hairstyle. Even that the character is physically female is part of the cliché. If media want to design a "character identifying as neither male nor female", it's always this. There's already discourse about this, there are media articles about this, and if you don't believe it, you can throw the term "non-binary person" into an AI picture generator, generate 10 pictures and look at the results.

What is the problem with wishing for more diversity in depictions?

Non-binary is the proper name for that community in the USA. It is the term many of them identify with

Vico Ortiz, the voice actor, identifies as non-binary.

There is not a problem with wishing for more diversity in depictions. But there is a pretty big difference between asking for other non-binary characters and reducing Tanlorin to only their pronouns. And that's how the discourse around Tanlorin has been. The way this has been discussed I thought that Tanlorin's storyline revolved around a bad and stereotypical depiction of their gender. When, in actuality, it's still just about their pronouns.

It is exclusionary towards a group of people with very few depictions in media. Who are misunderstood and marginalized in US society. Yes, their physical depictions tend to be similar. But that's because there is not a lot of examples and that's what some of the actors look like. As representation increases, so should the variety of depictions.

There's nothing wrong with Tanlorin being a character. And there is no specific cultural group that needs to be excluded from Tamriel.

spartaxoxo

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Vivec uses male pronouns, though, so there's no issues with adapting pronouns in different translations. And he is a hermaphrodite which is a bit different than being non-binary in a modern sense of the word (according to his author, he is inspired by a Hindu deity called Ardhanarishvara).
Iirc back in the glory days of Tumblr there was an idea of him using xe/xir as his preferred pronouns, but that never really took off. That is a problem with neopronouns - even in English it's kinda difficult to make people use them. And it is much more problematic in languages that are more gendered. In some languages you have masculine and feminine nouns and adjectives, and in some even verbs are gendered so trying to add new pronouns is a monumental task. And in other languages there's no gendered pronouns whatsoever. As far as I know, many nonbinary people who speak those more "gendered" languages just use male/female forms, often preferring the male version.
Point is, it is easy to use they/them in English, but unfortunately it's not always easy to localize it.

Sure, Vivec's pronouns as he/him. My point about Vivec isn't about his pronouns. It's about how there is room in Tamriel for a wide variety of depictions. Sometimes they go broad and sometimes they make references to specific cultural groups. ZOS blends these things all together to make Tamriel feel alive. Tanlorin happens to be more specific to English speakers in some places. That's okay. Perhaps the next non-binary will be more broad.

Syldras

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Non-binary is the proper name for that community in the USA. It is the term many of them identify with

Exactly, as I said, that's the term and concept originating from the USA. Other countries and cultures have different concepts, including different names, different self-images, different ways of presenting. None of them are better or worse, they're just different.

As I said, I don't know about how the depiction in US media is, but here in my country, it's a very frequent topic in the last few years, but the depiction is unfortunately very narrow, very much always the same.

The more I think about it, the more of a pity I find it that ZOS doesn't make use of the fantasy world they have with its many different cultures when it comes to LGBT topics. They could make a lot about it if they are seriously interested:
"The Khajiit have a third gender, considering themselves between the sexes, called (insert Khajiit language term here)."
"The Argonians who are just in process of changing their sex through the Hist call themselves (x) and celebrate their transition in a festivity called (z)."
"Gay Altmer males in search of a partner wear an amulet with a (whatever gemstone) at banquets to show they're interested in men, not women."
The possibilities are endless.

spartaxoxo

Syldras wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Non-binary is the proper name for that community in the USA. It is the term many of them identify with

Exactly, as I said, that's the term and concept originating from the USA. Other countries and cultures have different concepts, including different names, different self-images, different ways of presenting. None of them are better or worse, they're just different.

Okay. But the person announcing it was an American speaking their own dialect of English.

Syldras wrote: »

The more I think about it, the more of a pity I find it that ZOS doesn't make use of the fantasy world they have with its many different cultures when it comes to LGBT topics. They could make a lot about it if they are seriously interested:
"The Khajiit have a third gender, considering themselves between the sexes, called (insert Khajiit language term here)."
"The Argonians who are just in process of changing their sex through the Hist call themselves (x) and celebrate their transition in a festivity called (z)."
"Gay Altmer males in search of a partner wear an amulet with a (whatever gemstone) at banquets to show they're interested in men, not women."
The possibilities are endless.

They do have some of this. They could definitely have more. I would like all of these AND Tanlorin.

Syldras

The most important thing to me would be that it fits the world of ESO and is well-written. If both of these things are the case, ZOS can narrate whatever story they like.

spartaxoxo

Ideally every quest in the game would be well-written. So, I agree with you there.
For me, the main deal breaker is when they break the lore. Like that awful business with Dark Brotherhood characters and Eveli back in Blackwood. I can't play Tanlorin yet but I hope that their story isn't awful like that.

ArchangelIsraphel

Syldras wrote:

The more I think about it, the more of a pity I find it that ZOS doesn't make use of the fantasy world they have with its many different cultures when it comes to LGBT topics. They could make a lot about it if they are seriously interested:
"The Khajiit have a third gender, considering themselves between the sexes, called (insert Khajiit language term here)."
"The Argonians who are just in process of changing their sex through the Hist call themselves (x) and celebrate their transition in a festivity called (z)."
"Gay Altmer males in search of a partner wear an amulet with a (whatever gemstone) at banquets to show they're interested in men, not women."
The possibilities are endless.

I'd absolutely love if these kind of ideas were explored within Tamriel's culture. Especially if the quest involved the ability to actually participate in a ceremony if I have an argonian that is in the process of transition, for example.

I'd also love it if we had something like that amulet for gay alter males, and ones character could actually wear it.

I think it's important for zos to consider that representation doesn't only have to come from a character they created, it can come in the form of giving the player character ways of further integrating with the world through cultural practices . After all, I feel the most diverse lgtbq+ presence in the game comes from the players and what they create to express themselves.

Syldras

As someone who's here mostly for the lore, exploring Tamriel's different cultures is one of the most interesting things for me. I want to see unique cultures with their different traditions, habits, festivities, religious beliefs and rites.

In non-homophobic societies like the ones we see on Tamriel, LGBT themes could fit into this completely normally. If for Argonians changing their sex is a common part of life, it would just seem normal if there's some cultural tradition around this thing, just like every culture has its different traditions about other important life events (in most cultures it's usually birth, coming of age, marriage, death, but of course every other major turn or milestone would be celebrated, too).

And courting traditions are completely normal, too, so in a society where being attracted to the same sex is absolutely normal and no big deal, there would certainly be some item to easily show other people one's orientation (in the real world, there are many traditions where clothing is used to show other people one's partnership status at first glance - single and searching for partner / single but not searching for partner / married / widowed - , by the use of certain items, or colors, of even the side on which an item is carried).

This is how I'd ideally imagine LGBT themes to be treated in ESO: fitting into the world organically, and being cultural specific to Tamriel's people. Just a normal part of the world, of the narrations, of Tamriel's societies.

Oh, and they should give us a way to stop obnoxious npc flirting. There are many reasons to dislike it, of course, and all are legit, but it somehow feels especially strange to me if it goes against the idea I have of my character's orientation and there's no way for my character to react negatively to it. It would have been considerate by ZOS to give us the agency to actually react on this behaviour.

TaSheen

Syldras wrote: »

Oh, and they should give us a way to stop obnoxious npc flirting. There are many reasons to dislike it, of course, and all are legit, but it somehow feels especially strange to me if it goes against the idea I have of my character's orientation and there's no way for my character to react negatively to it. It would have been considerate by ZOS to give us the agency to actually react on this behaviour.

This. This needs to be enabled ASAP.

ArchangelIsraphel

Syldras wrote: »

Oh, and they should give us a way to stop obnoxious npc flirting. There are many reasons to dislike it, of course, and all are legit, but it somehow feels especially strange to me if it goes against the idea I have of my character's orientation and there's no way for my character to react negatively to it. It would have been considerate by ZOS to give us the agency to actually react on this behaviour.

Agreed. Even if both my mains are bi, they'd still love to tell all the flirting npc's to knock it off.

Especially Naryu. Ugh.