I’m still befuddled by the Tanlorin quest-chain “twist.” (Avast, there be spoilers)

PrincessOfThieves

Syldras wrote: »

In German and many other languages there are no neutral pronouns that could be used for humans. They just don't exist. Sometimes some activists have started making pronouns up during the last few years, but outside a limited circle of like-minded people no one knows them or uses them and they are not considered official language/grammar. The whole cultural concept of genderneutral pronouns might be even completely alien to people because of that (which then also shows in English lessons, btw: in 9 years or so never did an English teacher ever use singular they, it was always "he or she").

Now ZOS has just used some of these activist or peer-group created pronouns for Tanlorin in the translations. The words don't make sense to the random native speaker of these languages who has no clue about this scene/subcultural vocabulary (let's call it what it is). It's confusing and immersion-breaking for many if there's suddenly special pronouns to be used for one specific character in the game, special pronouns that don't exist in that language naturally. They make as much sense as randomly saying Tanlorin's pronouns were flarb/flurb. How is the average player supposed to react to sentences like "This is Tanlorin. Flarb is a hulkynd. I really like flurb."? Does anyone expect people to pick that up just because someone says that's how to speak about this character? I can tell you how the discussions look in some other-language forums: People who want to be polite avoid Tanlorin's pronouns altogether. Most just write "she".

Not to be misunderstood: I'm not against establishing a gender-neutral pronoun in languages that don't have that yet (might be useful, also when talking about someone who's gender is unknown). But it's a fact some languages don't have that yet and that people will be confused or even adverse if it's suddenly put into a narration. Just throwing that at people and expecting them to accept it immediately and participate in it doesn't work.

This, to me, just shows how much of this discourse is American-centric.
In every time period and culture there were people who felt that they don't fit traditional gender roles and who didn't want to be assigned to a certain gender. Including these people in stories and generally raising awareness about their experiences is a good thing in my opinion and it can add more depth to a story.
But the modern "nonbinary" thing seems very American in how it is built around pronouns and such. It seems somewhat limiting and arbitrary. Which is ironic considering that it is supposed to be liberating.

Juomuuri

What I gathered from playing their quests, they were oustered for their wild magic, not for their gender identity. ZOS has stated that in Tamriel different genders and sexualities are seen as normal - just like how the world doesn't have misogyny. My problem with the quests is that the plot is poorly written and hard to follow. Tan themself is fine as a character, even tho I'd prefer them to have more standard hair to not fall into the stereotype... It sucks that their quests are like this, when Zerith-var has excellent quests!

Idelise

The whole introduction of a char as 'first non-binary char' rubbed me off the wrong way, honestly. I miss days when the point of a character was who they were as a person, what their thoughts on historical events of a universe were and how they approached certain events rather than what gender identity they had and whom they wanted to sleep with as the main selling point... but hey, that's me. Back in ye olde days, we judged people based on contents of their character, not the contents of their pants.

Representation should be subtle, and done with tact. You see a person before you see a label.

BlueRaven

The whole story felt a bit flat to me. Her personal backstory, with her tattoos and wild magic seems like a more engaging plot. I know it is almost a double beat of the story from Greenshade, but I think I would have liked a simpler “family separation/acceptance” type plot, than the invention of two brand new factions that we will never hear from again.

The whole betrayal thing felt weak and forced. Who was your group (the garland ring (?)) rebelling against exactly? Why was what they were doing worth the time and attention of ANYONE? It felt like much ado about groups that hardly anyone would put much effort into caring about.

“Oh no! 5-6 Altmer want to break away and do their own thing. They are rebels without a clear motive, cause, or actual actions.”

“Oh? OK, and…?”

mdjessup4906

Haven't done this quest yet, so judgment pending, but...

Wonder why they didn't just rehire the alchemy writer. I was skeptical about the hype around her at first but was pleasantly surprised at how not cheesy it was.

Elsonso

Idelise wrote: »

The whole introduction of a char as 'first non-binary char' rubbed me off the wrong way, honestly. I miss days when the point of a character was who they were as a person, what their thoughts on historical events of a universe were and how they approached certain events rather than what gender identity they had and whom they wanted to sleep with as the main selling point... but hey, that's me. Back in ye olde days, we judged people based on contents of their character, not the contents of their pants.

Representation should be subtle, and done with tact. You see a person before you see a label.

The printed material did the introduction in a more Elder Scrolls manner by introducing the character before getting into sexual preferences. Actually, the Update material never mentions the sexual preferences of Tanlorin in the introduction. The deeper dive material does not mention it, either. This perfectly fits into the casual manner that these things are treated inside the game.

I am not sure why they felt it was super important to lead with that in the live show. I don't have a problem with the sexuality, but it came off as pandering. If the companion is written well and fits into the game, it will stand up without having to do that.

However, I am hearing in this thread that the writing is ... not that good.

I do not plan to get either of them, as they are paid content that I don't feel the need to pay for, so I live through the experience of others.

old_scopie1945

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

I view Tanlorin's sexuality as not an issue. She appears to be a lesbian or possibly bisexual to me.

I do have two problems with her though -

First is the they/them stuff. Every time I hear it, I'm looking around for where the (plural) others are. Every. Time. I don't know what the answer is. They/them is too confusing/vague. The term 'it' ensures singularity but that seems. . . insulting to apply to a humanoid.

Secondly, her personality seems in many ways to be a knockoff of Ember's (young, brash, undisiciplined, cutesy) but the problem is that Ember pulls it off well. Tanlorin's personality manifests as confused/inconsistent.

That's my take on it to a "T".

old_scopie1945

zaria wrote: »

Who identify as an crocodile, and become one? The other I remember well it was an dunmer hanging out in an khajiit pub wanting to become an khajiit. You can also start this quest finding an bag in a delve, he become an argonian instead

This is the crocodile lady.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Murk-Watcher

old_scopie1945

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

You could all just do as I do and ignore their storyline and make your own up in your head. Once their main quest is over, you don't have to deal with the bad writing anymore.

Good advice, after the quest Tanlorin seems no better or no worse than the other companions.

old_scopie1945

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

First is the they/them stuff. Every time I hear it, I'm looking around for where the (plural) others are. Every. Time. I don't know what the answer is. They/them is too confusing/vague. The term 'it' ensures singularity but that seems. . . insulting to apply to a humanoid.

Actually English is one of those languages where you can easily use ambiguous pronouns. In more "gendered" ones such as German or French it is much more complicated and even native speakers are often not familiar with it.

I'm English and I found it confusing.

robpr

The writing is just sad. With no lorefriendly introduction, the char looks like pandering rather than proper character we could care about. For example we could borrow one of the Coldharbour quests where there is one body forced with 2 souls inside, but instead literal 2 different souls, Tan got into arcane accident with stolen artifact or something and got fused with themselves from different timeline where they were born as different gender than in this timeline.

There, lore friendly non-binary character and some explanation for proficiency with soul magic.

old_scopie1945

robpr wrote: »

The writing is just sad. With no lorefriendly introduction, the char looks like pandering rather than proper character we could care about. For example we could borrow one of the Coldharbour quests where there is one body forced with 2 souls inside, but instead literal 2 different souls, Tan got into arcane accident with stolen artifact or something and got fused with themselves from different timeline where they were born as different gender than in this timeline.

There, lore friendly non-binary character and some explanation for proficiency with soul magic.

You should be the writer.

Syldras

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

This, to me, just shows how much of this discourse is American-centric.

Yes. And that's not surprising considering ZOS is an American company and the writers are Americans who grow up in this culture and its specific mindset (every country has its differences). If the story would have written by somebody from a different culture that has no clue about the American idea of "nonbinary", the narration about a person thinking of themself as between the sexes might have looked completely different!

The same with everything that is labelled trans now, by the way. Many Kathoey from Laos and Thailand are considered by Westerners to be "trans" but I'm very sure that the absolute majority of them would not be able to identify with the concept of "trans" - if they even know the word. And I'm quite sure that the Koekchuch would also be quite confused if they still existed...

Anyway, I think it's a pity. TES is a fantasy story in a completely different world, so why does the feeling of "being neither male nor female" or "being inbetween" has to be portrayed exactly like it is typical in current modern time USA? I would have loved more creativity and more open-mindedness. So, yeah, I totally agree with you.

whitecrow

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

First is the they/them stuff. Every time I hear it, I'm looking around for where the (plural) others are. Every. Time. I don't know what the answer is. They/them is too confusing/vague.

I had the same problem with Tree Boy in High Isle.

ArchangelIsraphel

Syldras wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

This, to me, just shows how much of this discourse is American-centric.

The same with everything that is labelled trans now, by the way. Many Kathoey from Laos and Thailand are considered by Westerners to be "trans" but I'm very sure that the absolute majority of them would not be able to identify with the concept of "trans" - if they even know the word. And I'm quite sure that the Koekchuch would also be quite confused if they still existed...

Thank you for posting this information, I was completely unaware of the term Kathoey, and also didn't know about the Koekchuch people. I appreciate learning something new about history.

Syldras wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

This, to me, just shows how much of this discourse is American-centric.

Anyway, I think it's a pity. TES is a fantasy story in a completely different world, so why does the feeling of "being neither male nor female" or "being inbetween" has to be portrayed exactly like it is typical in current modern time USA? I would have loved more creativity and more open-mindedness. So, yeah, I totally agree with you.

To further expand upon this topic, I am very concerned with the way Tanlorin was presented by the developers, both in the stream, and in game. It leaves people unfamiliar with LGBTQ+ terminology confused. Not only is this terminology USA centric, but it gives the impression that all non-binary people use or identify with they/them pronouns and that this is the only correct way to address someone who is non-binary, when it isn't. Non-binary is only an umbrella term that does not account for all of the various nuances to be found beneath it. There are people who still use he/him, she/her, or even other pronouns which they feel express their identity better. Tanlorin is presented as if they represent non-binary as a whole, when they barely scratch the surface of what it can mean.

And in Tamriel, it can mean something entirely different from what it means in our world- gender identity, sexuality, and the expression of it would be influenced by the unique cultural differences in Tamriel. This isn't planet earth.

On top of this, we have characters throughout the storyline using Tanlorin's preferred pronouns without fail, regardless of how or where these characters became aware of them. If binary pronouns related to ones physical biology exist in Tamriel, how did these characters immediately know that Tanlorin prefers to use they/them pronouns? Did they find out via word of mouth?
Or did they assume based on Tanlorin's appearance? Which is....simply not right, because this further shoe-horns non-binary folks into a steryotype.

I feel I have to double, triple underline (for others who might get the wrong impression) the fact that I have absolutely no problem with Tanlorin's identity or use of they/them pronouns. I'm just trying desperately to make sense of how this all fits into TESO, and the plot holes are making my brain ache because the whole thing feels more and more insensitive to non-binary individuals the more I think about it.

Of course, I know that one character cannot ever (and should not ever) be expected to cover all the nuances of any particular identity, even within the context of identities specific to their own world. But to present them as "our first non-binary companion" as if non-binary has one definition...

What I wouldn't give to see them explore these ideas in new, creative ways unique to the TES universe, unguided by activists and politics, but instead, by creative instinct and true passion for the subject matter and the world. Give us ideas that can be built into characters and into the world. Unique identities, new ways of expressing these feelings. How do non-binary and other individuals express themselves within the context of the specific cultures they were born in? Do they have specific terms within each culture? It makes no sense for there to be a single term for such a feeling when the cultures of Tamriel are so unique, and have, throughout it's history, been separated from each other by war and strife.

If we have specific Tamrielic slang and idioms which depend on culture, then surely we would have such terms when it comes to sexuality and gender identity.

Juomuuri

whitecrow wrote: »

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

First is the they/them stuff. Every time I hear it, I'm looking around for where the (plural) others are. Every. Time. I don't know what the answer is. They/them is too confusing/vague.

I had the same problem with Tree Boy in High Isle.

As a Finn, I'm more confused by she/her and he/him. They/them makes more sense as Finnish has no gendered pronouns. We use "hän" and "se" which are equivalent to they/them and it/its, respectively. We usually call everyone an "it" and it's normal. Trying to remember the correct gendered pronoun has always been an issue to me in English and I usually default to they/them to play it safe if I get confused. I misgender my male and female characters by accident due to this all the time! I will never understand gendered pronouns.

Syldras

BlueRaven wrote: »

The whole story felt a bit flat to me. Her personal backstory, with her tattoos and wild magic seems like a more engaging plot. I know it is almost a double beat of the story from Greenshade, but I think I would have liked a simpler “family separation/acceptance” type plot, than the invention of two brand new factions that we will never hear from again.
The whole betrayal thing felt weak and forced. Who was your group (the garland ring (?)) rebelling against exactly? Why was what they were doing worth the time and attention of ANYONE? It felt like much ado about groups that hardly anyone would put much effort into caring about.
“Oh no! 5-6 Altmer want to break away and do their own thing. They are rebels without a clear motive, cause, or actual actions.”
“Oh? OK, and…?”

The more I think about it... "Rebellious" "idealist" wanting to fight for "justice" and making the world a better place, fancy tattoos, fancy colourful hair, flirty, adventurous, well-liked by the peergroup, capable... Feels like an unhappy teenager's wishful thinking. A Mary Sue character.

TheMajority

I'm upset because I come and do reading here, and I feel a great sadness that I think there are players on these forums who would have really done Tanlorin justice if the writings of Tanlorin and their dialogue was put in those players hands instead because there are players here who don't just understand LGBTQ+ emotions, but that they also have real actual passion for this world and could of made everything flow perfect for Tan.

Players who actually played LGBTQ+ characters themselves in this world for YEARS and have true actual integration with it!

Elsonso

.

TheMajority wrote: »

I'm upset because I come and do reading here, and I feel a great sadness that I think there are players on these forums who would have really done Tanlorin justice if the writings of Tanlorin and their dialogue was put in those players hands instead because there are players here who don't just understand LGBTQ+ emotions, but that they also have real actual passion for this world and could of made everything flow perfect for Tan.

Part of the problem that I see is that the real world and Tamriel are not the same place. If the intent is to explore the real world struggles of a non-binary person, then I am not sure that Tamriel is the place to go for that. Tamriel feels very much like LGBTQ+ does not have the real world emotions because none of this is really all that unusual. Maybe not common, but also not unusual.

"Tamriel, this is just the way the world is."

So, maybe the focus should not be on the emotional struggles of being non-binary. Instead, the lesson that ESO can bring is a focus on just being a non-binary in a world that doesn't really find that a problem.

ArchangelIsraphel

Elsonso wrote: »

.

TheMajority wrote: »

I'm upset because I come and do reading here, and I feel a great sadness that I think there are players on these forums who would have really done Tanlorin justice if the writings of Tanlorin and their dialogue was put in those players hands instead because there are players here who don't just understand LGBTQ+ emotions, but that they also have real actual passion for this world and could of made everything flow perfect for Tan.

Part of the problem that I see is that the real world and Tamriel are not the same place. If the intent is to explore the real world struggles of a non-binary person, then I am not sure that Tamriel is the place to go for that. Tamriel feels very much like LGBTQ+ does not have the real world emotions because none of this is really all that unusual. Maybe not common, but also not unusual.

"Tamriel, this is just the way the world is."

So, maybe the focus should not be on the emotional struggles of being non-binary. Instead, the lesson that ESO can bring is a focus on just being a non-binary in a world that doesn't really find that a problem.

Which is exactly why I love Tamriel. No matter who you want your character to be, you can leave the emotional burden caused by real-world interpersonal conflict regarding these issues behind, and the character can just exist, regardless of sexuality, identity, or physical biology.

Tamriel has it's issues which can indeed be considered metaphors for real life, but at least here, identity and sexuality is not one of them. I mean, I wouldn't even call Tamriel progressive, because it was never a problem to begin with within the cultures of Nirn.

It is, however, progressive in terms of real-world story telling and how these subjects can be presented in a way that does not preach to or belittle the audience. It simply is, and that's that.

Syldras

Homophobia indeed doesn't exist in Tamriel, which is, to be honest, slightly unrealistic. Even if there's no religion which condemns same-sex relationships, some cultural specifics would probably lead to some of TES' races not being happy with their offspring not getting into a straight marriage and producing heirs, especially when it comes to nobility.

I can understand the value of this tolerance in game for players who suffer from an intolerant environment in real life, of course (When it comes to internal struggles and self-doubts on the other hand, a thing I often hear of: That's something I never experienced and therefore can't relate to, so I'm not the best person to say anything about that). So, yes, this would be nothing I'd complain about, "realistic" or not. I can understand very well that people who are subjected to homophobia in real life want a break from that in game.

If we'd want to include themes like being rejected by the family for loving the wrong person, we'd have to consider other factors than the people's sex that would make sense in Tamriel. Something like enemy tribes, a cultural problem of some kind, of the usual Dunmer House issues (although at ESO's time it's much less serious than later in the 3rd era). Something that fits the lore.

TheMajority

Elsonso wrote: »

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TheMajority wrote: »

I'm upset because I come and do reading here, and I feel a great sadness that I think there are players on these forums who would have really done Tanlorin justice if the writings of Tanlorin and their dialogue was put in those players hands instead because there are players here who don't just understand LGBTQ+ emotions, but that they also have real actual passion for this world and could of made everything flow perfect for Tan.

Part of the problem that I see is that the real world and Tamriel are not the same place. If the intent is to explore the real world struggles of a non-binary person, then I am not sure that Tamriel is the place to go for that. Tamriel feels very much like LGBTQ+ does not have the real world emotions because none of this is really all that unusual. Maybe not common, but also not unusual.

"Tamriel, this is just the way the world is."

So, maybe the focus should not be on the emotional struggles of being non-binary. Instead, the lesson that ESO can bring is a focus on just being a non-binary in a world that doesn't really find that a problem.

yeah, I think this is a correct way of seeing it. they are trying to push the issue into a world where LGBTQ+ people would not have those emotions cause they are not being held back. they would not have to push for recognition because its just accepted, no need to lecture or chastise a player character

LGBTQ+ players who recognize that in this world have a better integration with it and feel a strong relief from that. sounds like they are writing characters who don't have to struggle with that

my wife and I got rp character couples with different gender identities and all kind of orientation and we don't have to touch on the subjects of what happens IRL cause it's not existent here. i dont sound like a writer in english but I am in my own language and can see the nuance even if im having trouble giving it expression on an english speaking forum.

meanwhile there's people who write on here so eloquently that they even sound good google translated into my language lol. I try to write in english by myself without translating to practice that.

I also just found the dialouge and writing for Tanlorin's quest really very "young adult book" like, not like its for adults. It's hard to express what I mean because I am no poet in the english language. I understand more than I can type from the written word. But it reminds me of the YA novels I read when I was beginning to learn the language. underdeveloped and simple. Kind of felt talked down to.

Elvenheart

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

You could all just do as I do and ignore their storyline and make your own up in your head. Once their main quest is over, you don't have to deal with the bad writing anymore.

I’ve had to do this with Tanlorin’s story as well. A much better story would have been exploring why they couldn’t control their powers and working with/mending the rift between them and their family. To be honest, that is what I expected, not this old hackneyed spy ring/betrayal from within plot that’s been done thousands of times everywhere else with some real-world politics sprinkled in to add edginess. It could have been someone in their family was jealous and sabotaging them magically, or they could have been cursed at an early age by some strange artifact, or even a Daedric Prince could have been in involved.

This is a bit off topic, but after saying what I just said, I do have to say that Zerith-Var’s story has been one of my most favorite in all the years I’ve been playing ESO. No spoilers, but it actually made me weepy in the end! 🥲

Soarora

Syldras wrote: »

Homophobia indeed doesn't exist in Tamriel, which is, to be honest, slightly unrealistic. Even if there's no religion which condemns same-sex relationships, some cultural specifics would probably lead to some of TES' races not being happy with their offspring not getting into a straight marriage and producing heirs, especially when it comes to nobility.

I can understand the value of this tolerance in game for players who suffer from an intolerant environment in real life, of course (When it comes to internal struggles and self-doubts on the other hand, a thing I often hear of: That's something I never experienced and therefore can't relate to, so I'm not the best person to say anything about that). So, yes, this would be nothing I'd complain about, "realistic" or not. I can understand very well that people who are subjected to homophobia in real life want a break from that in game.

If we'd want to include themes like being rejected by the family for loving the wrong person, we'd have to consider other factors than the people's sex that would make sense in Tamriel. Something like enemy tribes, a cultural problem of some kind, of the usual Dunmer House issues (although at ESO's time it's much less serious than later in the 3rd era). Something that fits the lore.

To be fair, homophobia /could/ exist in nobility (especially Altmer and Dunmer) and we just aren’t shown this possibly because of the current climate of “if you write about this you must be supporting it”. I don’t know how gender could be a problem in TES though. If ZOS wanted a “I can’t love you because we’re lgbtq+“ story, I feel like the best setting would be in nobility. Instead of being a hulkynd, “Tan” could’ve been of high status betrothed to another Altmer (male). Could’ve had a plotline about trying to get out of this marriage only to find the to-be-Husband is also gay and in the end the two can have a lavender marriage (a marriage for social reasons, particularly to hide that one or both partners are gay).

Edit: or if ZOS really wanted to focus on the nonbinary, make a nonbinary argonian grappling with the male-female cycle granted by the Hist. Could be genderfluid, often going to the Hist and changing sex. Could be agender, struggling to feel right no matter what sex they choose. I mean, prime real estate here, argonians literally can and do change their sex, not just their gender.

spartan62893_ESO

Honestly, I appreciate that being nonbinary is basically a nonexistent problem in Tanlorin's story. All their troubles stem from not fitting into their intended place in Altmer society. They didn't want to be an architect like their mother, and can't really use magic in a traditional way. I feel like if that was the focus of their story, and not a generic, overly cliched 'we want to make Altmer society better' spy thing, it would have been a more interesting experience. (I personally, would have preferred a 'typical' Altmer point of view character as a companion, but things are what they are)

ArchangelIsraphel

Soarora wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

Homophobia indeed doesn't exist in Tamriel, which is, to be honest, slightly unrealistic. Even if there's no religion which condemns same-sex relationships, some cultural specifics would probably lead to some of TES' races not being happy with their offspring not getting into a straight marriage and producing heirs, especially when it comes to nobility.

I can understand the value of this tolerance in game for players who suffer from an intolerant environment in real life, of course (When it comes to internal struggles and self-doubts on the other hand, a thing I often hear of: That's something I never experienced and therefore can't relate to, so I'm not the best person to say anything about that). So, yes, this would be nothing I'd complain about, "realistic" or not. I can understand very well that people who are subjected to homophobia in real life want a break from that in game.

If we'd want to include themes like being rejected by the family for loving the wrong person, we'd have to consider other factors than the people's sex that would make sense in Tamriel. Something like enemy tribes, a cultural problem of some kind, of the usual Dunmer House issues (although at ESO's time it's much less serious than later in the 3rd era). Something that fits the lore.

To be fair, homophobia /could/ exist in nobility (especially Altmer and Dunmer) and we just aren’t shown this possibly because of the current climate of “if you write about this you must be supporting it”. I don’t know how gender could be a problem in TES though. If ZOS wanted a “I can’t love you because we’re lgbtq+“ story, I feel like the best setting would be in nobility. Instead of being a hulkynd, “Tan” could’ve been of high status betrothed to another Altmer (male). Could’ve had a plotline about trying to get out of this marriage only to find the to-be-Husband is also gay and in the end the two can have a lavender marriage (a marriage for social reasons, particularly to hide that one or both partners are gay).

Edit: or if ZOS really wanted to focus on the nonbinary, make a nonbinary argonian grappling with the male-female cycle granted by the Hist. Could be genderfluid, often going to the Hist and changing sex. Could be agender, struggling to feel right no matter what sex they choose. I mean, prime real estate here, argonians literally can and do change their sex, not just their gender.

I can see this happening in the TES world, actually. As much as I like the feeling of refuge TES provides, I agree with Syldras in that it is unrealistic for a fantasy world to be completely devoid of homophobic practices, especially where nobility and the desire for an heir is concerned. Which touches on misogyny as well, when it comes down to it. Expecting a woman to marry a certain man in order to have an heir with the "correct lineage" is absolutely something that would, and does happen in this world. I've touched on these subjects myself in my own, private (Non TES) writing, because they are absolutely issues within hierarchical societies and cultures where nobility desires control over the future of finances or a kingdom.

Of course, I do not condone these practices (I wish it weren't necessary to constantly assure the outside world of this) but I see the merit in illustrating them in order to show why they are problematic or create conflict.

I can, however, also see Tamriel developing ways for LGBTQ+ couples to have children, through developments in magic and the world's version of science. I don't think it's a stretch to imagine that this issue could be resolved, for some couples at least, through having a surrogate mother or a male donor, if they wanted to have children.

Also- I absolutely love that Argonian plot line. That would be an amazing way to delve into Argonian culture and LGBTQ+ representation. I want that companion immediately. I already have an Argonian character on the backburner who would be perfect to befriend them.

And since we've seen through Alchemy's portrayal that it is not impossible for other races to use magic in order to appear as they wish, why couldn't we have LGBTQ+ characters with unique ways of expressing their identities which involve using magic to change or shift their shape in accordance to their mental and emotional needs?

Elvenheart

I wonder if with some changes to the story it would have been better to have made Tanloren a Bosmer?

FlipFlopFrog

I don't think Zos particularly wanted to make the quest about LGBTQ+ I think they'd much rather give us a high fantasy story involving dragons and daedra etc. HOWEVER, just like numerous other game developers/ film studios this kind of messaging is being shoehorned into every single franchise. I wouldn't be at all surprised if there's some sweet baby Inc going on in the background considering Microsoft now owns Zos.

old_scopie1945

Elvenheart wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

You could all just do as I do and ignore their storyline and make your own up in your head. Once their main quest is over, you don't have to deal with the bad writing anymore.

I’ve had to do this with Tanlorin’s story as well. A much better story would have been exploring why they couldn’t control their powers and working with/mending the rift between them and their family. To be honest, that is what I expected, not this old hackneyed spy ring/betrayal from within plot that’s been done thousands of times everywhere else with some real-world politics sprinkled in to add edginess. It could have been someone in their family was jealous and sabotaging them magically, or they could have been cursed at an early age by some strange artifact, or even a Daedric Prince could have been in involved.

This is a bit off topic, but after saying what I just said, I do have to say that Zerith-Var’s story has been one of my most favorite in all the years I’ve been playing ESO. No spoilers, but it actually made me weepy in the end! 🥲

Seems that some of the player base has more talent than the writers.

PrincessOfThieves

Elvenheart wrote: »

I wonder if with some changes to the story it would have been better to have made Tanloren a Bosmer?

I don't think it would change the story a whole lot.
Altmer extremists are not known for their acceptance of "lesser" races as we could see during Veiled Heritance questline. So it would still make 0 sense for Wisteria to join them.