Is Nirn a flat earth?

Tallon_IV

I figured it was round like the other plane(t)s.

Hapexamendios

It's whatever the lore creators say it is and I don't kniw if they've said anything.

Dojohoda

Yes! My DK used to be able to leap right through the floor of NIrn and see it from underneath!

CameraBeardThePirate

Xarc wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Xarc wrote: »

Then nirn is a globe because you decided it and because in our reality we living on a sphere ?

Varana wrote: »

Nothing in that creation story you so helpfully summarised, says anything about the shape of Nirn, or has any relevance for that question.

Nothing nowhere says nirn is a globe.

I'm just asking questions, I don't have any answers yet (and I don't believe anything)

Actually, TESIV: Oblivion explicitly shows Nirn as a globe in the Orrery of the Arcane University.

This is just another interpretation of the representation of the different planes, a subjective interpretation from scholars

That's literally not how an orrery works but okay lol. Why even bother asking the question if you handwave away solid proof that answers your question?

Treeshka

It did not felt flat while climbing Sorrow during a quest.

Grizzbeorn

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I don't appreciate being called crazy.

Then don't BE crazy, perhaps.

Xarc

In fact there are two things to distinguish:
- whether Nirn is flat or spherical
- the state of knowledge of the inhabitants of Nirn

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

To return to the image of the globe, as i said nothing suggests that it is nirn.
And as I also said, no known explorer has traveled around the world in The Elder Scrolls lore.
In this way how can they know that the earth is round, and draw conclusions about its spherical shape represented in the form of a globe placed on a desk?

Taril

Xarc wrote: »

And as I also said, no known explorer has traveled around the world in The Elder Scrolls lore.
In this way how can they know that the earth is round

In many of the same ways we figured out the Earth is round well before anyone circumnavigated the world?

Things like the horizon (If the world was flat, you'd see the entire thing by looking at the horizon. Especially from a high vantage point like say Ash Mountain), extrapolating from every other observable body, observing stars from different locations etc.

Literally the notion that the Earth was round had become popular in the 3rd century (201-300 AD) in Ancient Greece. The world's first circumnavigation of the globe wasn't until the 16th century when Magellan's expedition sailed around the world in 1522.

Meaning we figured out the world was not flat well over 1000 years before anyone had actually travelled the entire globe.

colossalvoids

Does it matter being just a dream? Lore wise you'd probably have peasants not caring enough to have any thought about whilst imperials and dwemer clearly knowing their stuff, probably due to cross pollination of ideas it travelled some distance to mer like Divayth from Yagrum tea parties and such, probably his own travels also. Men and mer are also always up for a bargain for some forbidden knowledge and power, so no wonder depictions always hinting at celestial bodies being ellipsoids.

Soarora

Xarc wrote: »

In fact there are two things to distinguish:
- whether Nirn is flat or spherical
- the state of knowledge of the inhabitants of Nirn

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

To return to the image of the globe, as i said nothing suggests that it is nirn.
And as I also said, no known explorer has traveled around the world in The Elder Scrolls lore.
In this way how can they know that the earth is round, and draw conclusions about its spherical shape represented in the form of a globe placed on a desk?

Zoom in on the image and you’ll find that the globe has Tamriel on it…
We have boats and time travel and Akaviri invasions and a moonbase and space travel, I’m sure someone has traveled Nirn at some point or seen it from space.

Xarc

Soarora wrote: »

Zoom in on the image and you’ll find that the globe has Tamriel on it…

huh? I don't see tamriel on it but if you think so...

Soarora wrote: »

We have boats and time travel and Akaviri invasions and a moonbase and space travel

It doesnt prove that nirn isnt flat

Soarora wrote: »

I’m sure someone has traveled Nirn at some point or seen it from space.

Have you decided or do you have tangible proof?

I mean, I just want to have a constructive debate, but not with statements based on desires or thoughts.

Taril wrote: »

In many of the same ways we figured out the Earth is round well before anyone circumnavigated the world

I know that.
But you have no proof actually, only comparisons with our real world.

Here, it's a magical world, everything is possible, that's what I would like to submit

Taril

Xarc wrote: »

I mean, I just want to have a constructive debate, but not with statements based on desires or thoughts.

Xarc wrote: »

Here, it's a magical world, everything is possible, that's what I would like to submit

Uhh...

Xarc wrote: »

But you have no proof actually, only comparisons with our real world.

Yes. Comparisons to our real world meaning real techniques that were really used without the aid of magic that exists on Nirn. They were able to come to the conclusion that the world was in fact, round.

On Nirn, they keep depicting the place using GLOBES. Suggesting that they have in fact, figured out that the world is round.

Saying "But you have no proof!" is the same thing that can be said for your Flat Nirn theory. Where's YOUR proof that Nirn is flat? That people on Nirn consider it flat?

Your argument has been hinging on "Well no-one [is widely known] to have circumnavigated Nirn!" but real world evidence suggests that such a thing isn't necessary to determine whether a planet is flat even with primitive technologies (No magic, no Dwemer devices, no Aedric/Daedric shenans, no people literally ascending to godhood like Sotha Sil, no visiting other planes that orbit the planet and thus would be able to find said planet in the sky to look at it with telescopes etc)

Meanwhile, it's not implausible that someone HAS already circumnavigated Nirn. We literally have the Maomer who's culture revolves around sailing, to the point where they use derogatory terms for other races like "Landwalker". To expect such a race who's entire thing is sailing, to not have sailed around the world is a bit silly (That they haven't specifically noted any individual as the first to do so to other races is likely due to the fact they're not big fans of other races)

Yes, it is theoretically possible that a magical world could exist as a flat world. That's the basis of the Discworld from Terry Pratchett's novels, a flat world resting atop 5 giant elephants whom are themselves stood atop a giant turtle that swims through space.

But Nirn is heavily suggested to be an orb. With little to nothing suggesting a flat world.

Xarc

Taril wrote: »

Xarc wrote: »

I mean, I just want to have a constructive debate, but not with statements based on desires or thoughts.

Xarc wrote: »

Here, it's a magical world, everything is possible, that's what I would like to submit

Uhh...

Xarc wrote: »

But you have no proof actually, only comparisons with our real world.

Yes. Comparisons to our real world meaning real techniques that were really used without the aid of magic that exists on Nirn. They were able to come to the conclusion that the world was in fact, round.

On Nirn, they keep depicting the place using GLOBES. Suggesting that they have in fact, figured out that the world is round.

Saying "But you have no proof!" is the same thing that can be said for your Flat Nirn theory. Where's YOUR proof that Nirn is flat? That people on Nirn consider it flat?

Your argument has been hinging on "Well no-one [is widely known] to have circumnavigated Nirn!" but real world evidence suggests that such a thing isn't necessary to determine whether a planet is flat even with primitive technologies (No magic, no Dwemer devices, no Aedric/Daedric shenans, no people literally ascending to godhood like Sotha Sil, no visiting other planes that orbit the planet and thus would be able to find said planet in the sky to look at it with telescopes etc)

Meanwhile, it's not implausible that someone HAS already circumnavigated Nirn. We literally have the Maomer who's culture revolves around sailing, to the point where they use derogatory terms for other races like "Landwalker". To expect such a race who's entire thing is sailing, to not have sailed around the world is a bit silly (That they haven't specifically noted any individual as the first to do so to other races is likely due to the fact they're not big fans of other races)

Yes, it is theoretically possible that a magical world could exist as a flat world. That's the basis of the Discworld from Terry Pratchett's novels, a flat world resting atop 5 giant elephants whom are themselves stood atop a giant turtle that swims through space.

But Nirn is heavily suggested to be an orb. With little to nothing suggesting a flat world.

Ok you speak to me as if I were a fervent supporter of a flat Nirn.
But that is not the case, on the contrary I try to be objective
It's so easy to side with those who believe in a round earth... (now if you do not want to debate with respect you can leave this thread dude, this is only a way to talk about something else than "bugs", "gameplay" "companions" and "fashion" you know)

You're telling me i have no proof about my theory, and yes, this is the definition of a theory, as long as there is no proof it remains a theory ^^

I have a simple question: how do you explain the presence of a celestial vault?

CameraBeardThePirate

Xarc wrote: »

Taril wrote: »

Xarc wrote: »

I mean, I just want to have a constructive debate, but not with statements based on desires or thoughts.

Xarc wrote: »

Here, it's a magical world, everything is possible, that's what I would like to submit

Uhh...

Xarc wrote: »

But you have no proof actually, only comparisons with our real world.

Yes. Comparisons to our real world meaning real techniques that were really used without the aid of magic that exists on Nirn. They were able to come to the conclusion that the world was in fact, round.

On Nirn, they keep depicting the place using GLOBES. Suggesting that they have in fact, figured out that the world is round.

Saying "But you have no proof!" is the same thing that can be said for your Flat Nirn theory. Where's YOUR proof that Nirn is flat? That people on Nirn consider it flat?

Your argument has been hinging on "Well no-one [is widely known] to have circumnavigated Nirn!" but real world evidence suggests that such a thing isn't necessary to determine whether a planet is flat even with primitive technologies (No magic, no Dwemer devices, no Aedric/Daedric shenans, no people literally ascending to godhood like Sotha Sil, no visiting other planes that orbit the planet and thus would be able to find said planet in the sky to look at it with telescopes etc)

Meanwhile, it's not implausible that someone HAS already circumnavigated Nirn. We literally have the Maomer who's culture revolves around sailing, to the point where they use derogatory terms for other races like "Landwalker". To expect such a race who's entire thing is sailing, to not have sailed around the world is a bit silly (That they haven't specifically noted any individual as the first to do so to other races is likely due to the fact they're not big fans of other races)

Yes, it is theoretically possible that a magical world could exist as a flat world. That's the basis of the Discworld from Terry Pratchett's novels, a flat world resting atop 5 giant elephants whom are themselves stood atop a giant turtle that swims through space.

But Nirn is heavily suggested to be an orb. With little to nothing suggesting a flat world.

Ok you speak to me as if I were a fervent supporter of a flat Nirn.
But that is not the case, on the contrary I try to be objective
It's so easy to side with those who believe in a round earth... (now if you do not want to debate with respect you can leave this thread dude, this is only a way to talk about something else than "bugs", "gameplay" "companions" and "fashion" you know)

You're telling me i have no proof about my theory, and yes, this is the definition of a theory, as long as there is no proof it remains a theory ^^

I have a simple question: how do you explain the presence of a celestial vault?

You're clearly not being objective if you're handwaving away something like an orrery.

An orrery shows they used math to determine the world was in fact round, and that it was orbited by other round bodies, and that they are using math to determine the position of those round bodies in space relative to each other.

ghastley

Tamriel is a very small continent in ESO. Just ride across it and it won't take you long. So the time difference from one side to another is short. The globe is probably comparable to Earth, as gravity seems roughly similar.

Or to put it another way, Nirn is a sphere, but Tamriel might as well be flat.

In Daggerfall, distances were/will be much greater, and in Arena, you could ride forever and never get anywhere. Tamriel is growing, as the early games are later in the TES timeline. That's much weirder than flat versus round.

Xarc

ghastley wrote: »

Or to put it another way, Nirn is a sphere, but Tamriel might as well be flat..

how do you know Nirn is a sphere ?

Warhawke_80

So when is the game shutting down?

I only ask this because we are on nutbag topics like this.....

ArchMikem

There's a perfectly good Lore Category for this to have been post in.

And best guess is no. Nirn can still be assumed to be a sphere, it's just there's no record of anyone circumnavigating it yet. Seafaring technology hasn't progressed enough to survive the kinds of seas Nirn has, so no one has sailed past Thras to the west or Akavir to the east.

The real question should be why there haven't been any Akaviri crossing the western sea to Sumerset yet. Perhaps the ocean where Yokuda used to be is just too turbulent, or there's another Continent out there we've never heard of.

Taril

Xarc wrote: »

Ok you speak to me as if I were a fervent supporter of a flat Nirn.

Because you seemingly are, given you dismiss everything that suggests otherwise.

Xarc wrote: »

I have a simple question: how do you explain the presence of a celestial vault?

How is that relevant in any way, shape or form to the notion of whether Nirn is flat or spherical?

Like, the only reference to a Celestial Vault is it encapsulating Mundus and the stars are where breaches were made by spirits fleeing to Mundus in order to not be consumed in its creation (Thus letting in light from outside the Celestial Vault to leak in and dropping Skyshards across the planes)

No-where in that does it even suggest what shape the Nirn is. Especially given that this Vault is apparently encapsulating ALL of Mundus, meaning it is at least 3 dimensional (If not more)

Soarora

Xarc wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Zoom in on the image and you’ll find that the globe has Tamriel on it…

huh? I don't see tamriel on it but if you think so...

Soarora wrote: »

We have boats and time travel and Akaviri invasions and a moonbase and space travel

It doesnt prove that nirn isnt flat

Soarora wrote: »

I’m sure someone has traveled Nirn at some point or seen it from space.

Have you decided or do you have tangible proof?

I mean, I just want to have a constructive debate, but not with statements based on desires or thoughts.

Taril wrote: »

In many of the same ways we figured out the Earth is round well before anyone circumnavigated the world

I know that.
But you have no proof actually, only comparisons with our real world.

Here, it's a magical world, everything is possible, that's what I would like to submit

I don’t know what to tell you, Cyrodiil is very clearly on the globe and from Cyrodiil you can look up and see Skyrim or left and see High Rock. If that’s not enough evidence its Tamriel, you can also look right from Skyrim and see the unique shape of Morrowind half hidden in the shadows. The globe is of Tamriel, and thus of Nirn.

We can’t /prove/ anything, but we can accept what the evidence tells us until other evidence says otherwise. This is how many things work.

Xarc

So we agree that the only arguments about spherical Nirn are... supositions ?
Just like the arguments about its flatness.

Absolutely no evidence for either.

Soarora wrote: »

We can’t /prove/ anything, but we can accept what the evidence tells us until other evidence says otherwise. This is how many things work.

what evidence are you talking about ?

Xarc

In fact you are basing yourself on evidence while in this world nothing is.

I remind you that in the lore there are demonic creatures that land from another plane, that it is possible to teleport and summon spirits, to recover one's soul that has been taken from us and locked in a soul stone, etc. etc. I do not see how the fact that nirn is flat is so illogical in relation to the rest. The argument that consists of saying "because it is logical it is like in our world" is in no way valid, given all the differences that there are.

From a purely objective point of view, there is no specific indication that Nirn is a round planet, but rather that it is a world with a celestial vault. We know there is an Adamantine tower built by gods themselves at the end of the creation of the world.

From a subjective point of view now, this world would have its potential center (and this is my theory) at the adamantine tower. Otherwise, how would the location of the tower have been decided? Randomly? It doesn't seem serious to me. The fact that there is a center is in contradiction with the existence of a spherical world.

umagon

Maybe nirn is a hypersphere.

spartaxoxo

All known depictions of Nirn in all lore has shown it to be a sphere. Since all available evidence points it to being a sphere, it is one until additional evidence shows otherwise.

The location of the Adamantine tower and the celestial vault do not require a flat Nirn and have no bearing on its shape.

Taril

Xarc wrote: »

In fact you are basing yourself on evidence while in this world nothing is.

I remind you that in the lore there are demonic creatures that land from another plane, that it is possible to teleport and summon spirits, to recover one's soul that has been taken from us and locked in a soul stone, etc. etc. I do not see how the fact that nirn is flat is so illogical in relation to the rest. The argument that consists of saying "because it is logical it is like in our world" is in no way valid, given all the differences that there are.

Yes, the world has magic in it.

Yes, in a setting with magic, a flat world can exist.

But all evidence IN THIS WORLD, is pointing towards it being a sphere.

Ergo, it is most likely a sphere. Unless compelling evidence to the contrary is provided.

Meanwhile, the evidence based on this world is in a DIRECT RESPONSE to your use of "Real world" mechanics. YOU brought up "How do they know the world is round if no-one travelled around it" like "Travelling around it" is some sort of requirement (It was only used in the real world as empirical proof to back up the well regarded theories that had existed for centuries)

The real world shows how they could have figured out the world was round. Which we definitely know they believe given the sheer number of globe depictions and complete and total lack of even a single depiction of a flat Nirn.

Xarc wrote: »

rather that it is a world with a celestial vault. We know there is an Adamantine tower built by gods themselves at the end of the creation of the world.

You keep throwing this around like it means something.

1) Nirn doesn't have a Celestial Vault. It, along with the rest of Mundus is INSIDE a Celestial Vault. The light from "Stars" is literally light from outside this Celestial Vault leaking in through gaps within it.

A Celestial Vault doesn't imply anything about shape either. Let alone having any influence of the shape of one specific planet within it (While every other one is literally observed to be spherical)

2) You can build a tower on a sphere. There's literally nothing preventing anyone from doing that. We've done it plenty. The various races of Tamriel have done it plenty.

Xarc wrote: »

From a subjective point of view now, this world would have its potential center (and this is my theory) at the adamantine tower.

There is no basis for this trail of thought. There's no reason a tower HAS to be built on the centre of something. Even more so when land masses are spread out so that there might not even be land at the centre point to even build something.

Xarc wrote: »

Otherwise, how would the location of the tower have been decided? Randomly? It doesn't seem serious to me.

There are myriads of potential influences of where a tower could be built. Such as the axis of a sphere, tectonic plates, gathering of magical energy, any influences from various beings that have being coalesced into Nirn or have affected it post creation (Like how Ash Mountain is supposedly created from when Shor's heart was thrown into the world), influences of all the planes that orbit the planet etc.

"Being in the centre of a flat world" is merely a single possible motive behind the location of such a thing.

Xarc

Taril wrote: »

But all evidence IN THIS WORLD, is pointing towards it being a sphere.

Please make a list ?

TaSheen

This is kind of a silly thing to argue about. Should have put it in the lore forum, or at least tagged the loremaster about it. Seriously, neither option makes any difference in gameplay.

Carcamongus

Xarc wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Zoom in on the image and you’ll find that the globe has Tamriel on it…

huh? I don't see tamriel on it but if you think so...

It's not hard to see at all.

zaria

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

Just do an Eratosthenes.

Go far north, measure the maximum length of your shadow.

Travel as far south as you can and a year after making the northerly observation measure your shadow again. Simple calculation gives you the circumference of Nirn.

Things get interesting if you go past the equator, but then if there's an equator you already know Nirn isn't flat - no calculation necessary

Except that the game world is flat with an sun who probably change depending on point of view.
Same is true on all large game worlds as its pointless to do otherwise in most games say ESO or an racing game.
A few games make the world an globe as needed else its no point.

Varana

Xarc wrote: »

So we agree that the only arguments about spherical Nirn are... supositions ?

No.

The arguments for a spherical Nirn are objects from the game world. Either as seen in the games, or depicting a scene taking place in Tamriel.

This is getting a bit silly now.