Is Nirn a flat earth?

Xarc · October 31

First of all, I think it's important to precise i'm not a flat earther from flat earth society or other crazy dudes.
I'm talking about Nirn, in The Elder Scrolls Serie, okay ? ^^

Well, that being said, I wonder if Nirn, as a mortal plane, is technically considered as a planet or a flat earth, since it is mentioned several times in various works (notably from the guild of mages) the presence of a celestial vault.

Just asking to get your opinion.

Factually we have a sun and 2 moons.
The sun is moving in sky, from one end to the other. And when it is on one side it is day on that side, and it is night on the other.
Moons are visibles everytime during the whole day, and both have phases (from dark moons to full moons)

What we know :
During the Age of Dawn, Lorkhan manages to convince several of his non-Daedra brothers and sisters to create Nirn, the mortal world. All of these spirits who follow Lorkhan are called "Aedra".
The Aedra gather on the Adamantine Tower, including Magnus, who draws up plans for the world, of which he is the architect. But quickly, the spirits realize that Nirn is transforming them into mortals.
Seeing what is happening to them, some spirits, the Magne-Ge, decide to flee Nirn. To do this, they pierce the celestial vault and take refuge in Aetherius.

The holes created by millions of spirits create the stars in the celestial vault, letting magic escape from beyond the vault and shine at night.
In ESO we have a lot of celestial shards, which are fragments of the celestial vault (certainly fallen during this flight).

Other spirits decide instead to go to the end of Lorkhan's plan and merge with Nirn. They become the "Eight Divines", and give substance to the world.
The remaining spirits, those who follow neither the Eight Divines nor the Magne-Ge, remain behind and become the Ehlnofeys, the first inhabitants of Nirn.

The Ehlnofeys split into two camps. Those who felt betrayed by Lorkhan were led by Auri-El and separated from Lorkhan's followers. A war broke out between the two camps, a war that Lorkhan lost: Auri-El and Trinimac ripped out his heart and threw it from the top of the Adamantine Tower.

Eight Aedra, the Eight Divines, guided by Akatosh, decide to sacrifice their bodies and transform themselves into eight planets around Nirn, to give it consistency.
The fall of the Heart of Lorkhan on Nirn causes the creation of Red Mountain. The heart completes the stabilization of the world.
Lorkhan's body is cut in two and thrown into the sky. The two pieces become the moons Masser and Secunda.

So, what do you think about it ?

PrincessOfThieves · October 31

For what it's worth, Nirn seems to be depicted as a planet in one of the Oblivion's dlcs https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Orrery
But yeah, it definitely doesn't work like normal planets in our universe.

Soarora · October 31

I think its round, there’s no evidence towards it being flat and I’d say the default for a planet would be a spheroid. I also believe that, due to the planets and moons and the shape of “stars” (importantly, the sun) all being spheres/circles as far as we can tell… the true shape of divinity is a sphere.

Rohamad_Ali · October 31

I don't appreciate being called crazy.

Xarc · October 31

Yes, it seems logical, but many arguments suggest otherwise.
It also seems to me that no known explorer has officially circumnavigated the world in lore (which is not an argument that proves that the earth is flat, but it is worth noting).

Sleepsin · October 31

It's flat. You can test this yourself. Stand on the most eastern part and observe the position of the sun, then port to the western part and observe the sun. You will see that the sun is in the same position. Hence Nirn is flat.

WhiteCoatSyndrome · October 31

Nirn is round; it came up during the Dark Brotherhood DLC marketing. One of the art guys had to ask the Loremaster if he could include a globe in the art. This one:

zaria · October 31

Sleepsin wrote: »

It's flat. You can test this yourself. Stand on the most eastern part and observe the position of the sun, then port to the western part and observe the sun. You will see that the sun is in the same position. Hence Nirn is flat.

Yes the standard test to measure curvature return zero.
Now this could simply be game play mechanic. You would get the same result in games having huge maps but set on earth.
Exception is games like Microsoft Flight Simulator or Kerbal space program
In these two games shape matter as you might do an intercontinental flight, traveling into day. In KSP you will orbit the planet.

LunaFlora · October 31

no.

Soarora · October 31

Xarc wrote: »

Yes, it seems logical, but many arguments suggest otherwise.
It also seems to me that no known explorer has officially circumnavigated the world in lore (which is not an argument that proves that the earth is flat, but it is worth noting).

What are the “many arguments”?

Varana · October 31

Nothing in that creation story you so helpfully summarised, says anything about the shape of Nirn, or has any relevance for that question.

Xarc · October 31

Then nirn is a globe because you decided it and because in our reality we living on a sphere ?

Varana wrote: »

Nothing in that creation story you so helpfully summarised, says anything about the shape of Nirn, or has any relevance for that question.

Nothing nowhere says nirn is a globe.

I'm just asking questions, I don't have any answers yet (and I don't believe anything)

Varana · October 31

Or that it's flat. The whole story is inconsequential to the question. That was all.

We do have a few references to it being a globe, others already posted some of them.

Xarc · October 31

Sometimes references in Elder Scrolls lore books are misleading, because they are scholarly interpretations.
An interpretation is not hard evidence.
For example the references concerning Alduin (contradictory depending on the references) or the mystery concerning Cuhlecain's assassin, whose identity differs depending on the works).

spartaxoxo · October 31

There's no lore reason to believe it is flat. There is lore reason to believe it is round. So, it makes more sense to believe it's round until something contradicts that.

Heren · October 31

I would rather have Nirn remade as a cheese by Sheogorath. Wich cheese tho... maybe Nirn could take the form of a different cheese everyday ?

ESO_player123 · October 31

I do not have an answer to your question, but I enjoyed reading your summary. Thanks for that.

CameraBeardThePirate · October 31

Xarc wrote: »

Then nirn is a globe because you decided it and because in our reality we living on a sphere ?

Varana wrote: »

Nothing in that creation story you so helpfully summarised, says anything about the shape of Nirn, or has any relevance for that question.

Nothing nowhere says nirn is a globe.

I'm just asking questions, I don't have any answers yet (and I don't believe anything)

Actually, TESIV: Oblivion explicitly shows Nirn as a globe in the Orrery of the Arcane University.

Xarc · October 31

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Xarc wrote: »

Then nirn is a globe because you decided it and because in our reality we living on a sphere ?

Varana wrote: »

Nothing in that creation story you so helpfully summarised, says anything about the shape of Nirn, or has any relevance for that question.

Nothing nowhere says nirn is a globe.

I'm just asking questions, I don't have any answers yet (and I don't believe anything)

Actually, TESIV: Oblivion explicitly shows Nirn as a globe in the Orrery of the Arcane University.

This is just another interpretation of the representation of the different planes, a subjective interpretation from scholars

Soarora · October 31

Sure, we can’t PROVE Nirn is round until we actually see Nirn from space, but we can say its likely round unless proven flat because all evidence (as laid out in this conversation) says its round. So, I don’t know what you’re getting at.

Varana wrote: »

Nothing in that creation story you so helpfully summarised, says anything about the shape of Nirn, or has any relevance for that question.

If anything, the creation story is evidence towards Nirn being round. We know Masser and Secunda are round, we also know the Divines are all round, because we (or in-universe astronomers) have seen them. We know Magnus was round because the sun-hole is a circle (that, or if Magnus was flat then he would’ve had to go through either top or bottom side first or go upwards or downwards through Aetherius). Nirn is a Divine creation, Divine creations are seemingly round in any case we have seen.

DinoZavr · October 31

Nope. Otherwise Khajiiti would push everything down.

loaganb16_ESO · October 31

Didn't they answer this in 1997 with Battlespire? Their Space Force from the first fra? Either way, the Dwemer certainly were not slacks and they made their models in the form of spheres.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/File:RG-place-Observatory_02.jpg

Benzux · October 31

Nirn is not flat, but the Mundus is a Nirn-centric universe. The spherical planet of Nirn sits in the very centre, presumably spinning around its own axis to facilitate the day/night cycle (either that, or the entire firmament spins) orbited primarily by its two moons, Masser and Secunda (which I believe technically orbits Masser), and farther out by the Eight Divines, some of which orbit each other rather than Nirn directly.

We know the Eight are far enough away to be of similar size to the stars when viewed from Nirn, as the three Guardian Constellations all incorporate one as part of them - Akatosh for the Warrior, Arkay for the Thief, and Julianos for the Mage. Though, how exactly that works if the planets all orbit Nirn is unknown. Perhaps the whole firmament does spin slowly, and those three planets' orbits match this speed, thus giving the impression that they are stationary and thus always part of their respective constellations? Or then their orbit is slow enough that, for significant enough periods of time, the planets appear to be strictly stationary parts of the constellations.

Taril · October 31

Am I missing something? Nothing in OP's post even suggests that Nirn is flat.

As far as we know, Nirn is round. Just like all other observable celestial bodies.

There's little to suggest otherwise and nothing has ever been mentioned that would even enable a flat world to exist (I.e. the existence of gravity, how water doesn't simply flow off the edge etc)

Mages have theorized about flat Nirn, but they've never provided any solid evidence and is likely based on the rather limited scope of exploration (There has been very little canonical exploration of continents other than Tamriel. To the point where there's a question of whether Aldmeris even still exists)

Most depictions of a "World" are in the form of globes, suggesting that the most accepted belief is that the world is in fact, round.

In general, it'd probably get more solidified if there was more interaction with other continents. Or perhaps even just the Maomer (Whom are likely to have sailed enough to know if there's any edge of the world).

Since that's one of the main things that's holding back global depictions, the lack of knowledge of the other continents (Aldmeris, Akavir, Atmora, Pyandonea and any other as yet unspecified continents if they exist). As you can't properly design a globe if you don't know how to fill it up because you only have Tamriel and Yokuda that you are aware of the exact geography of (Yokuda being mapped in TESA: Redguard) - Which was an issue with the original art for Summerset Orrery as it used fan made landmasses on the globe:

Which is why the actual release version was simply bare of land depictions:

Soarora · October 31

Benzux wrote: »

Nirn is not flat, but the Mundus is a Nirn-centric universe. The spherical planet of Nirn sits in the very centre, presumably spinning around its own axis to facilitate the day/night cycle (either that, or the entire firmament spins) orbited primarily by its two moons, Masser and Secunda (which I believe technically orbits Masser)

Great point. Also, yes, Secunda orbits Masser.

BixenteN7Akantor · October 31

I always wondered what happens if you go deep enough under the surface. Deepest we ever got is probably the Aetherium Forge in Skyrim or the Akhulakhan chamber in TES3:Morrowind and there's still underground water and lava lakes at the Aetherium Forge...
I have a faint memory of the Dro-ma'thra plane being deep under surface. Who knows

I_killed_Vivec · October 31

Just do an Eratosthenes.

Go far north, measure the maximum length of your shadow.

Travel as far south as you can and a year after making the northerly observation measure your shadow again. Simple calculation gives you the circumference of Nirn.

Things get interesting if you go past the equator, but then if there's an equator you already know Nirn isn't flat - no calculation necessary

Varana · October 31

Xarc wrote: »

Sometimes references in Elder Scrolls lore books are misleading, because they are scholarly interpretations.
An interpretation is not hard evidence.
For example the references concerning Alduin (contradictory depending on the references) or the mystery concerning Cuhlecain's assassin, whose identity differs depending on the works).

I did not mention lorebooks anywhere.

Apart from the orrery, we have also a globe meant to depict Nirn as an object in Daggerfall, and the globe in the DB art shown with the additional authority as cited by WhiteCoatSyndrome.

So while the question is certainly valid, and speculation is fun, and we don't have much to work with, the only actual clues within the lore indicate a globe, as far as we can determine at this point.

Xarc · October 31

Varana wrote: »

Xarc wrote: »

Sometimes references in Elder Scrolls lore books are misleading, because they are scholarly interpretations.
An interpretation is not hard evidence.
For example the references concerning Alduin (contradictory depending on the references) or the mystery concerning Cuhlecain's assassin, whose identity differs depending on the works).

I did not mention lorebooks anywhere.

Apart from the orrery, we have also a globe meant to depict Nirn as an object in Daggerfall, and the globe in the DB art shown with the additional authority as cited by WhiteCoatSyndrome.

So while the question is certainly valid, and speculation is fun, and we don't have much to work with, the only actual clues within the lore indicate a globe, as far as we can determine at this point.

About the globe in the picture mentioned by White Coat Syndrome, here again nothing mentions it is a representation of nirn (ye, i'm annoying ^^)

I have another theory and it concerns the Adamantine Tower (or Tower Zero).
It is from this one that the gods gathered after the construction of the new mortal plane, and that everything was played out. It is the oldest construction of Nirn, but the big question concerns its location. How was it decided, was it the result of chance or... the center of the world? And in this case the center of a flat Nirn...?

Soarora · October 31

Xarc wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

Xarc wrote: »

Sometimes references in Elder Scrolls lore books are misleading, because they are scholarly interpretations.
An interpretation is not hard evidence.
For example the references concerning Alduin (contradictory depending on the references) or the mystery concerning Cuhlecain's assassin, whose identity differs depending on the works).

I did not mention lorebooks anywhere.

Apart from the orrery, we have also a globe meant to depict Nirn as an object in Daggerfall, and the globe in the DB art shown with the additional authority as cited by WhiteCoatSyndrome.

So while the question is certainly valid, and speculation is fun, and we don't have much to work with, the only actual clues within the lore indicate a globe, as far as we can determine at this point.

About the globe in the picture mentioned by White Coat Syndrome, here again nothing mentions it is a representation of nirn (ye, i'm annoying ^^)

I have another theory and it concerns the Adamantine Tower (or Tower Zero).
It is from this one that the gods gathered after the construction of the new mortal plane, and that everything was played out. It is the oldest construction of Nirn, but the big question concerns its location. How was it decided, was it the result of chance or... the center of the world? And in this case the center of a flat Nirn...?

Edit: nevermind, I’m thinking of White-Gold.

fizzylu · October 31

Is Nirn from a lore perspective flat? Seems like it's not from the info here. Is the in-game world flat though? Yes, our legs disappear in small puddles though so I wouldn't expect them to take into account how planets work when creating the layout of zones and their skyboxes.