New maps are nice, but 8v8 is a mess

NeoniKa

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Not sure why players think 4v4v4 was great. It was plagued with issues that the new 4v4 and 8v8 solves.

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

4v4v4 Deathmatch: The two dominant teams don't kill each other and instead race to kill the weakest player(s) on the third team. This mode has many block tanks that contribute nothing and end up making the teams lopsided. There are too many 19k health Nightblades that die in 1 second and feed. When you have these players on a 4-player team, it greatly impacts the team. 8-player teams can absorb these types of players much better.

4v4v4 Chaosball: The max move speed ball carrier is the biggest issue.

4v4v4 Capture the Relic: Too many issues to list but I think you covered many of them.

4v4v4 Land Grab: Too many capture points in the second half of the game. Should be 2 or 3 max. These modes don't work well on larger maps like Istirus Outpost where you spend most of your time running around.

There was even an article where the dev team highlighted many of the problems with 4v4v4 and how they are now fixed.

I can understand that you prefer 4v4, it's ok. I don't, I hated it and I'll never play it again. It reminds me everything I hated in most of the 90's PVP that I didn't enjoy. So, I have absolutely no interest in return to it. Anyway, I don't understand why they needed to completely remove the 4v4v4 matches (at least I'm not finding it). Why did they need to kill it? Why can't we have both? I'll never play 4v4 but I would continue to play 4v4v4, it was my favorite thing in this game.

SkaraMinoc

My theory is that many ESO players like to play it safe. Maybe their build is bad or maybe they're new to the game, or their reflexes and muscle memory aren't what they used to be. That's why they love the 4v4v4 format and also want modes like Domination and Crazy King.

I don't mean this as an insult but as an observation of 10k+ battlegrounds played.

It's also why most PvPers in Cyrodiil are defensive and reactive. They'll sit in keeps waiting to siege or wait for enough players to zerg the nearest enemy keep.

SkaraMinoc

NeoniKa wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Not sure why players think 4v4v4 was great. It was plagued with issues that the new 4v4 and 8v8 solves.

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

4v4v4 Deathmatch: The two dominant teams don't kill each other and instead race to kill the weakest player(s) on the third team. This mode has many block tanks that contribute nothing and end up making the teams lopsided. There are too many 19k health Nightblades that die in 1 second and feed. When you have these players on a 4-player team, it greatly impacts the team. 8-player teams can absorb these types of players much better.

4v4v4 Chaosball: The max move speed ball carrier is the biggest issue.

4v4v4 Capture the Relic: Too many issues to list but I think you covered many of them.

4v4v4 Land Grab: Too many capture points in the second half of the game. Should be 2 or 3 max. These modes don't work well on larger maps like Istirus Outpost where you spend most of your time running around.

There was even an article where the dev team highlighted many of the problems with 4v4v4 and how they are now fixed.

I can understand that you prefer 4v4, it's ok. I don't, I hated it and I'll never play it again. It reminds me everything I hated in most of the 90's PVP that I didn't enjoy. So, I have absolutely no interest in return to it. Anyway, I don't understand why they needed to completely remove the 4v4v4 matches (at least I'm not finding it). Why did they need to kill it? Why can't we have both? I'll never play 4v4 but I would continue to play 4v4v4, it was my favorite thing in this game.

They'll bring back 4v4v4 in some capacity, whether it's a battleground weekend or maybe even a permanent option in the queue dropdown. I'm fairly confident this will happen and don't think you need to worry.

NeoniKa

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

NeoniKa wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Not sure why players think 4v4v4 was great. It was plagued with issues that the new 4v4 and 8v8 solves.

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

4v4v4 Deathmatch: The two dominant teams don't kill each other and instead race to kill the weakest player(s) on the third team. This mode has many block tanks that contribute nothing and end up making the teams lopsided. There are too many 19k health Nightblades that die in 1 second and feed. When you have these players on a 4-player team, it greatly impacts the team. 8-player teams can absorb these types of players much better.

4v4v4 Chaosball: The max move speed ball carrier is the biggest issue.

4v4v4 Capture the Relic: Too many issues to list but I think you covered many of them.

4v4v4 Land Grab: Too many capture points in the second half of the game. Should be 2 or 3 max. These modes don't work well on larger maps like Istirus Outpost where you spend most of your time running around.

There was even an article where the dev team highlighted many of the problems with 4v4v4 and how they are now fixed.

I can understand that you prefer 4v4, it's ok. I don't, I hated it and I'll never play it again. It reminds me everything I hated in most of the 90's PVP that I didn't enjoy. So, I have absolutely no interest in return to it. Anyway, I don't understand why they needed to completely remove the 4v4v4 matches (at least I'm not finding it). Why did they need to kill it? Why can't we have both? I'll never play 4v4 but I would continue to play 4v4v4, it was my favorite thing in this game.

They'll bring back 4v4v4 in some capacity, whether it's a battleground weekend or maybe even a permanent option in the queue dropdown. I'm fairly confident this will happen and don't think you need to worry.

I really really hope so, but permanently, not only in a few weekends. Especially now, after trying 4v4 and 8v8, I started to love 4v4v4 even more. I miss it a lot. It was a lot of fun, nothing like the boredom of these new battlegrounds.

Chilly-McFreeze

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Theist_VII wrote: »

Sheridan wrote: »

3 sides in a fight works way better for maintaining the balance than 2 sides. In a two-side fight, one team almost always totally dominates the other. Many years ago in Warhammer Online a lot of players wished there were a third side. When ESO came out, I thought the developers took that experience into consideration by introducing the Three Banners War and later 3-sided Battlegrounds. But now all of a sudden it's a step back.

Yet, anyone who has actually played 3-party PvP will tell you that ideals do not match reality.

Reality is that the 3rd team that’s in last is usually going after the 2nd team instead of the 1st to try to steal 2nd as they have no hope at 1st.

With that circumstance in mind, at least 2nd place can kill 3rd, while 3rd at least can try to overthrow second. Yet with only two sides... Wouldn't be surprised if spawn camping becomes omnipresent in DM.

It's also worth noting that all of the most successful (non-battle royale) team-based PvP games (across genres) have 2 team matches. ESO had 3 teams (and factions) because some of the original devs had nostalgia for Dark Age of Camelot (which was more of a cult classic than a real hit), and 10 years later that approach hasn't aged well.

If I'd wanted to play a two team competitive pvp game, I'd play other games than ESO. ESO's pvp isn't competitive, it isn't well balanced in classes, sets, team composition or MMR.
3 sided matches had their obvious short comings. So does team vs team. From my experience the current iteration is far often lopsided and low fun than before. The forum is full of "2 team BG will be great if you change x, y, z, a, b and c.". Well, if they'd put a bit effort into "old" BGs it would have been better too.

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

My theory is that many ESO players like to play it safe. Maybe their build is bad or maybe they're new to the game, or their reflexes and muscle memory aren't what they used to be. That's why they love the 4v4v4 format and also want modes like Domination and Crazy King.

I don't mean this as an insult but as an observation of 10k+ battlegrounds played.

It's also why most PvPers in Cyrodiil are defensive and reactive. They'll sit in keeps waiting to siege or wait for enough players to zerg the nearest enemy keep.

So your experience goes against what the devs had in mind. In that one article they stated that many player wanted more lean-back, relaxed bg. Interesting.

Minnesinger

I kinda like 8vs8 for its amazing action (chaos). Now if I see right the option to plays 8vs8 was removed. Is it because of some technical issues or something else....

Ok solo queue took me to 8vs8 game. The options are just a bit misleading.

erdYrrson

Minnesinger wrote: »

I kinda like 8vs8 for its amazing action (chaos). Now if I see right the option to plays 8vs8 was removed. Is it because of some technical issues or something else....

Still there, just renamed for

"Battlegrounds Domination Weekend (11/14-11/19)
Take part in Battlegrounds, newly revamped in Update 44, with as many Domination matches as you care to … well, dominate!"

quote from
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/66891

Theist_VII

Have now taken the time to play some Solo 8v8 on Live and wow is it a great experience! Close matches, all of them, and group plays completely turn games around!

That being said, 4v4 is a complete landslide right now in most cases with usually only one team having an unkillable support.

NeoniKa

I noticed that they removed 8v8 from the name in the Battlegrounds group finder and I was hoping that they had made the good Battlegrounds available again. But no, after all it's still the boring new 8v8 and 4v4 renamed. But there is misleading information that cause deception. It still says: "To earn Daily Bonus your team must finish first or second." But that's not true now. I just confirmed that only the team finishing first will earn the Daily Bonus.

tsaescishoeshiner

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

My theory is that many ESO players like to play it safe. Maybe their build is bad or maybe they're new to the game, or their reflexes and muscle memory aren't what they used to be. That's why they love the 4v4v4 format and also want modes like Domination and Crazy King.

I don't mean this as an insult but as an observation of 10k+ battlegrounds played.

It's also why most PvPers in Cyrodiil are defensive and reactive. They'll sit in keeps waiting to siege or wait for enough players to zerg the nearest enemy keep.

I think it's more complex than that. Players of all skill levels can sometimes want a casual match, try out a fun build, or don't have an optimized team to play with at the moment. I think the 4v4v4 matches had more risk, because you were outnumbered constantly and more often to be on your own because the objectives were far apart and the maps were bigger.

From what I've seen, 1vXers, premades groups, and top duelists also play it plenty safe, eliminating risk and luck from their builds.

I like the new two-sided battlegrounds, but I also enjoyed the chaos and opportunities of a three-way match. It was fun to try and find opportunities in the chaos, use conflict between the other teams to your advantage, and be outnumbered more often (depending on your build lol).

The two-sided matches and new objectives encourage teams to clump together more. It's made my life as a healer much easier, for sure, and made the games seem more communal and tight-knit, but there was more risk in the 4v4v4s. I've been enjoying the new BGs more than I thought, and for now I prefer them.

fizzylu

NeoniKa wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

They'll bring back 4v4v4 in some capacity, whether it's a battleground weekend or maybe even a permanent option in the queue dropdown. I'm fairly confident this will happen and don't think you need to worry.

I really really hope so, but permanently, not only in a few weekends. Especially now, after trying 4v4 and 8v8, I started to love 4v4v4 even more. I miss it a lot. It was a lot of fun, nothing like the boredom of these new battlegrounds.

Same, but by the time they do watch it be like the whole "solo queue only BG" thing over again where a bunch of people have already left and end up never coming back because they've already moved on. I mean, I've even started playing New World again because of this and it's honestly been the greatest time I've had in a game in months so I'm not even mad anymore.... which isn't a good thing for ESO.

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

My theory is that many ESO players like to play it safe. Maybe their build is bad or maybe they're new to the game, or their reflexes and muscle memory aren't what they used to be. That's why they love the 4v4v4 format and also want modes like Domination and Crazy King.

And it's funny that you say this since in my experience in BGs for years, usually the people who didn't like having three teams were ones that couldn't handle the pressure and tactical play required for situations where you might be fighting someone then also getting jumped and have to defend against a third party.
While it is true that having more people in a match can take some of the burden off of the players at times, the 4v4v4 setup had a different type of tactical play that was just as challenging-- just in a different way. And sure, I could just constantly push and push against one other team while they just push and push me and my teammates back.... but I'm sorry; that will never be as fun as fighting an enemy by a relic, seeing a third enemy run up trying to sneak grab it, having to work to stop them, while also defending myself against the first enemy, and succeeding.
Nothing in the new BGs will ever feel as good or fun as something like that.

Xarc

finishing in top1, top2 or top3 of my groups, i win only 50% of BG with random8.

Tell me the point to play with randoms ?

Luke_Flamesword

finishing in top1, top2 or top3 of my groups, i win only 50% of BG with random8.

Tell me the point to play with randoms ?

Same thing, but for me yesterday it was 7 (!!!!) failed matches in a row. Today I'm after 5 failed matches and still waiting for being queued with team capable to do anything...

OsUfi

I enjoyed 4v4v4 as a casual and not particularly good PvP'er. I can handle myself, but I'll never be the hero of the team. I did enjoy old BG and Cyro though. BG daily used to be the only daily thing I always wanted to do and I was looking forward to 8v8 until I tried it this weekend.

Oh lord, 7 or 8 losses on the trot and I never did get the BG daily, or even the 3 win quest from the battle master done. In 4v4v4 I often felt like there was a battle for second place for that daily reward. Now one side starts getting curb stomped and just kinda gives up. Might try again at a later date, but sure as heck won't be running the BG daily anymore.