With being subscribed to ESO Plus and realizing I ain't getting to purchase everything soon...

SeaGtGruff

Stafford197 wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Stafford197 wrote: »

Everyone knows this game is P2W due to its unlimited Pay for Convenience.

So you're saying that I should be winning because I've got ESO Plus? I guess that means everyone who is defeating me in PvP must be cheating in some way. Thank you! I'll start reporting them from now on!

Pretty snarky comment. I laid out what players can do in ESO which causes many to refer to the game as P2W.

I also said we didn't have to use the term “P2W”, since some players like yourself do not consider Pay for Convenience to matter. Some do, some don’t, it really doesn’t matter.

The correlation to PvP would be to earn unlimited Gold via Crown gifting, and then to purchase all gear/items and carries to level you up.
You can join PvP on a fully maxed out build in a few days, compared to a truly new player would might take years to get to that point. Again, you might not consider this P2W and that’s fine, but many do. It’s the modern approach games tend to take.

Well, my understanding of "pay-to-win" is "the practice of paying to get weapons, abilities, etc. that give you an advantage over players who do not spend money." That's from the Cambridge Dictionary:

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/pay-to-win

If you want to get technical, that definition literally (and by "literally," I really do mean literally) describes "pay-for-advantage," since having an advantage of some kind over players who didn't pay for that same advantage is not a guarantee that you're going to win against them, or even win more often than they do. If the word "win" is going to legitimately be in the term "pay-to-win," then IMHO paying should actually result in winning, otherwise it was just a scam from beginning to end.

The only things ESO Plus gives me that I can't get without paying for ESO Plus are the unlimited Craft Bag, double bank space, and double housing space.

Increased XP doesn't qualify, IMO, because I can get XP without paying for it, and can even get increased XP without having to pay for it, such as through Training gear, or from scrolls acquired as free rewards just by logging in.

Crown Store conveniences such as buying all of the skyshards in the various zones (after I've already acquired them for free on at least one other character), or buying skill lines that I can obtain for free in the game, might be a way of speeding up the time needed to get into "end-game content," but that doesn't ensure that you'll actually "win" at the game.

So what I'm getting out of this discussion is that "pay-to-win" is really just a big scam, since the "to-win" portion of the phrase is totally without any kind of guarantee of actually winning at the game.

Stafford197

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Stafford197 wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Stafford197 wrote: »

Everyone knows this game is P2W due to its unlimited Pay for Convenience.

So you're saying that I should be winning because I've got ESO Plus? I guess that means everyone who is defeating me in PvP must be cheating in some way. Thank you! I'll start reporting them from now on!

Pretty snarky comment. I laid out what players can do in ESO which causes many to refer to the game as P2W.

I also said we didn't have to use the term “P2W”, since some players like yourself do not consider Pay for Convenience to matter. Some do, some don’t, it really doesn’t matter.

The correlation to PvP would be to earn unlimited Gold via Crown gifting, and then to purchase all gear/items and carries to level you up.
You can join PvP on a fully maxed out build in a few days, compared to a truly new player would might take years to get to that point. Again, you might not consider this P2W and that’s fine, but many do. It’s the modern approach games tend to take.

Well, my understanding of "pay-to-win" is "the practice of paying to get weapons, abilities, etc. that give you an advantage over players who do not spend money." That's from the Cambridge Dictionary:

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/pay-to-win

If you want to get technical, that definition literally (and by "literally," I really do mean literally) describes "pay-for-advantage," since having an advantage of some kind over players who didn't pay for that same advantage is not a guarantee that you're going to win against them, or even win more often than they do. If the word "win" is going to legitimately be in the term "pay-to-win," then IMHO paying should actually result in winning, otherwise it was just a scam from beginning to end.

The only things ESO Plus gives me that I can't get without paying for ESO Plus are the unlimited Craft Bag, double bank space, and double housing space.

Increased XP doesn't qualify, IMO, because I can get XP without paying for it, and can even get increased XP without having to pay for it, such as through Training gear, or from scrolls acquired as free rewards just by logging in.

Crown Store conveniences such as buying all of the skyshards in the various zones (after I've already acquired them for free on at least one other character), or buying skill lines that I can obtain for free in the game, might be a way of speeding up the time needed to get into "end-game content," but that doesn't ensure that you'll actually "win" at the game.

So what I'm getting out of this discussion is that "pay-to-win" is really just a big scam, since the "to-win" portion of the phrase is totally without any kind of guarantee of actually winning at the game.

People are going to disagree on this topic because we do not all agree on what “Winning” means in this game. And it makes sense that we might not agree… interpreting terminology is common in debate.

If the Crown Store started selling CP200 upgrade materials which cannot be acquired ingame, there would be threads on this Forum in uproar about ESO being Pay to Win, since you could directly purchase power which cannot be acquired by any other means besides real money. You would then see numerous comments from people claiming they do not consider a max power character to be the definition of winning in this game to argue that ESO is not P2W. That’s how it is.

It’s no hard feelings, we likely won’t agree on this topic and that’s totally ok.

LalMirchi

Zombocalypse wrote: »

... I mean... If a big motivation for players to grind at all is to buy a house or buy a mount with gold, then isn't buying those with crowns a form of cheating? You're purchasing stuff that non-paying (except for buying the game itself) players would instead work hard for with gold. ...

While I have what some would call an abundance of crowns and gold I have a rather strict policy by restricting most of my housing to the earnable housing.

My first and most enjoyable encounter with housing in terms of actually having to quest and work in-game to earn and own was the Hall of the Lunar Champion. Placed in the most enjoyable but heart-wrenching episodes in Elsweyr. I did however leave it empty for a couple of years.

However I did purchase Sungpod for 45,000g and set about decorating for the first time after having played the game for a few years without ever thinking about housing. Regarding Sungpod as the most strategically situated house I placed all essential services there: storage coffers, outfit station, banker, merchant and Piharri.

My real inteest in housing kicked in after earning Kelesan'ruhn during the Telvanni event. Once I got Sword-Singer's Redoubt I was in housing heaven and started spending inordinate time decorating, crafting and generally fiddling around. No crowns were spent buying houses, just time spent in-game.

Housing is earnable in game and purchasing items in the store is optional, ie one can spend time in-game and earn rewards or if one does not have the time or inclination to spend time in-game there is a choice for our convenience, it's not cheating.

spartaxoxo

This is not a P2W game. Housing is seen as a way for a chance to flex artistry and creativity, it's not about who obtained the most houses. Even in housing guilds with competitions, all of the ones I have been in cheered even their competitors on and nobody cared a ton about which house someone had, they cared about creatively it was decorated. Sure, you might get a compliment like "Oh you have x? I love this house! I missed it when it came around" But it wasn't going to win you anything. It was all in good fun and about the artistry and creativity on display.

If you're looking for competition, your best bet is PvP. But all of the gear for that is earned through gameplay.

Zombocalypse

Stafford197 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

All the items listed in the posts above this are items of convenience, cosmetic items and/or quality of life items. None of them wins the game for you.

Those 'convenience' items are all about winning. Not the power to beat some boss, or another player. This game is not like that. Winning advancement. Winning time. Convenience and bypasses are the 'evil' here.

I am fine with the pay to win here. but I don't hide what it is. It is fairly easy to not engage with it, and playing here requires co-existence. Narrowing the definition of "winning" is just a means to avoid admitting what it is. Embrace the truth. Or don't. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ It doesn't change what it is.

I think it's the opposite actually. You're taking the conventional meaning in gaming of "Pay to Win" and you're expanding it. It was never about achieving things more quickly, it was about being the most powerful and thereby beating other players by purchasing things in the cash shop that couldn't be earned in the game. No more, no less, than that. There's nothing in the Crown Store or ESO Plus that comes anywhere near that.

Are you familiar with Diablo Immortal by chance? If you are, would you consider Diablo Immortal to be Pay to Win?

I’m really curious how you see it because it’s a game where people have notoriously spent $100K+ to speed up progression. To be clear you CAN play the game for free and earn everything.

You can also choose to not even make a max level character your “definition of winning”. Therefore all spending money does is speed up the progression.

All luxuries are ultimately a waste of money, all the time. But since nobody is perfect, everyone is forgiven for having some luxury.

The only reason why I'm playing video games at all is that, in this day and age, video games are one of the cheapest forms of entertainment to have. All my money is spent in the gym, more protein, MMA classes, my phone, and other basic necessities.

Anything else beyond what makes a human healthy and strong is a luxury. This includes playing the Elder Scrolls Online. But I chose it because it's cheaper than art collecting, hunting, and piano classes. The very moment a video game reaches a demand in cost that exceeds the monthly fees of a damn Mixed Martial Arts gym is when I'll completely abandon it and settle on my huge backlog of single player games. Those who play an MMO and spend 100,000 dollars just so they can feel powerful in their imagination have got to be some of the weirdest people on the planet.

Nharimlur_Finor

Zombocalypse wrote: »

... I mean... If a big motivation for players to grind at all is to buy a house or buy a mount with gold, then isn't buying those with crowns a form of cheating? You're purchasing stuff that non-paying (except for buying the game itself) players would instead work hard for with gold.

Look, I'm all for discouraging freeloaders to be freeloaders, but if acquiring cool stuff in the game can be made faster by spending money, then don't us, the paying customers, get special privileges just because we're paying?

Just require freeloaders to pay the subscription to even be able to play at all. Otherwise, this game is pay to win. Bro, I hate looking at a freeloader in the game and knowing he is taking on the noble task of earning his houses right with gold while I just throw money to Zenimax so I can immediately buy a mansion while his broke-behind gets to enjoy the joys of grinding.

Dude, I don't wanna end up getting a bonus in my salary from work and then being able to buy an expensive item in the Crown Store after I'm so close to earning enough gold to get it for free.

It's hard for me to explain this...

The sought-after items in the game... Bro... Only master crafters or elite content-doing players should be able to provide them to other players. Not damn crowns.

What the heck man. Lock all noteworthy items from hard-to-beat content and master crafting, otherwise, what is the point of working hard for anything?

I hate looking at a freeloader in the game

Oh, really? How can you tell who is a subscriber and who isn't?

Lock all noteworthy items from hard-to-beat content

This is done already. If you aren't subscribed, you won't have access to:

• Arcanist class
• Necromancer class
• Jewellery crafting
• Antiquities and by that:
  • Mythic equipment
• Companions
• Houses in expansion zones
• Skyshards in expansion zones
• Costume dying
• Zone-based crafting equipment and by that:
  • Zone-based gear for Master writs
• More difficult and popular trial content and by that
  • Trial-based gear including perfected versions

You can buy a huge number of houses with in-game gold and without any associated achievement.

Listen sister, spend six months playing the way you like, paying or not.
Then raise any problems that you've found along the way.

Shanee

"Dude, I don't wanna end up getting a bonus in my salary from work and then being able to buy an expensive item in the Crown Store after I'm so close to earning enough gold to get it for free."

Technically not free, otherwise it'd cost 0 gold and 0 time to aquire.

If you've already dedicated multiple hours towards achieving a goal, why would you then just spend cash making all the time spent useless?

I personally disagree with this logic. Unless you suffer with some addiction and find it, very, very difficult to not spend your money instantly.. Then just don't buy it?

Why ever attempt a trial, when you can pay a guild to carry you through it?
Why do anything if you can just buy something to avoid playing/grinding?

Do what you enjoy, it's not too hard.

Elyon3019

Soarora wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

I'm still waiting after years of these threads for someone to explain exactly what it is in the Crown Store or ESO Plus that constitutes "Pay to Win".

I think it’s just housing, since the best houses are locked behind crowns and most fx and giant trees and statues are also locked behind crowns. Also spending irl money instead of having to buy mats and furnishing plans.

Agree, sadly housing is absolutely pay to win. Most of recent houses are locked behind crowns as you said and also half of items slots are locked behind ESO+ , so basicly players without subscription are hardly able to achive good builds in comparison with players with subscription. Low chance to succed in housing competitions with half slots without paying.

Kind of unfair when others eso activities are not like this, players who run trials or pvprs are getting only 10 % less amount of exps /aps not half less. Housing is no longer just cosmetic activity just for players that want to hang trophies and collectibles in their home, it is full time creative activity.

Stafford197

spartaxoxo wrote: »

This is not a P2W game. Housing is seen as a way for a chance to flex artistry and creativity, it's not about who obtained the most houses. Even in housing guilds with competitions, all of the ones I have been in cheered even their competitors on and nobody cared a ton about which house someone had, they cared about creatively it was decorated. Sure, you might get a compliment like "Oh you have x? I love this house! I missed it when it came around" But it wasn't going to win you anything. It was all in good fun and about the artistry and creativity on display.

If you're looking for competition, your best bet is PvP. But all of the gear for that is earned through gameplay.

Well not necessarily. For you “Winning” might be having a nice house. For another player it could be having the most powerful build, or having fun while questing, or leveling to max, or pushing scores.

If tomorrow we could buy CP200 upgrade mats for our gear on the Crown Store only (which is traditional P2W), players here will still defend ESO. Their logic is that powerful gear does not make us OP in Housing, Fishing, etc. It also does not help in easy content such as Overland questing, and it does not help in difficult content such as PvP since that content relies heavily on Player Skill. One user above even made that exact claim earlier lol.

All gaming communities have this behavior though. A better example is Diablo Immortal which is an extremely P2W game…. except it’s actually just strictly Pay for Convenience (to a significantly worse degree than ESO). You can drop $100K USD to gain power that is equal to many years of grinding. However, players in that community argue that you can earn that power for free which is true. Others even argue how their definition of Winning doesn’t equate to having a max power character.

P2W is just a spectrum these days which takes the form of pay for convenience to varying degrees. I really don’t care personally and in fact most players don’t care either. It’s only annoying when the base game experience of a game becomes degraded to an extent to where playing without spending money on the Cash Shop feels too crippling.

spartaxoxo

Stafford197 wrote: »

P2W is just a spectrum these days which takes the form of pay for convenience to varying degrees. I really don’t care personally and in fact most players don’t care either. It’s only annoying when the base game experience of a game becomes degraded to an extent to where playing without spending money on the Cash Shop feels too crippling.

I think a lot of people who think this way either didn't experience or don't remember when lots of games put the best gear in the cash shop and didn't care about gameplay. I remember when those games were rampant.

You could not play those games and not be crippled by ignoring the cash shop. Back then, myself and many others demanded monetization come from dlc models, paid subs, or convenience/cosmetics only on the cash shop. Word of mouth spread about games that were P2W and people were encouraged to avoid them.

This way gameplay would be prioritized because the money came from the game being fun to play and not from buying the strongest item to defeat other players. That's why it was called P2W, because it was literally a rejection of paying to have a competitive advantage over others, of power in the cash shop.

I think the term is becoming so watered down to lose all meaning if everything is considered P2W because someone, somewhere might describe winning as differently to beating the game's hardest content or defeating another player.

TaSheen

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Stafford197 wrote: »

P2W is just a spectrum these days which takes the form of pay for convenience to varying degrees. I really don’t care personally and in fact most players don’t care either. It’s only annoying when the base game experience of a game becomes degraded to an extent to where playing without spending money on the Cash Shop feels too crippling.

I think a lot of people who think this way either didn't experience or don't remember when lots of games put the best gear in the cash shop and didn't care about gameplay. I remember when those games were rampant.

You could not play those games and not be crippled by ignoring the cash shop. Back then, myself and many others demanded monetization come from dlc models, paid subs, or convenience/cosmetics only on the cash shop. Word of mouth spread about games that were P2W and people were encouraged to avoid them.

This way gameplay would be prioritized because the money came from the game being fun to play and not from buying the strongest item to defeat other players. That's why it was called P2W, because it was literally a rejection of paying to have a competitive advantage over others, of power in the cash shop.

I think the term is becoming so watered down to lose all meaning if everything is considered P2W because someone, somewhere might describe winning as differently to beating the game's hardest content or defeating another player.

Yeah. I remember those days. You are correct.

Stafford197

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Stafford197 wrote: »

P2W is just a spectrum these days which takes the form of pay for convenience to varying degrees. I really don’t care personally and in fact most players don’t care either. It’s only annoying when the base game experience of a game becomes degraded to an extent to where playing without spending money on the Cash Shop feels too crippling.

I think a lot of people who think this way either didn't experience or don't remember when lots of games put the best gear in the cash shop and didn't care about gameplay. I remember when those games were rampant.

You could not play those games and not be crippled by ignoring the cash shop. Back then, myself and many others demanded monetization come from dlc models, paid subs, or convenience/cosmetics only on the cash shop. Word of mouth spread about games that were P2W and people were encouraged to avoid them.

This way gameplay would be prioritized because the money came from the game being fun to play and not from buying the strongest item to defeat other players. That's why it was called P2W, because it was literally a rejection of paying to have a competitive advantage over others, of power in the cash shop.

I think the term is becoming so watered down to lose all meaning if everything is considered P2W because someone, somewhere might describe winning as differently to beating the game's hardest content or defeating another player.

I haven’t experienced it in my games but I also avoid games that do appear too P2W. ESO is definitely not even close to the worst offender or I wouldn’t be here!

I’m just trying to explain the general debate here as best I can. In the end it really comes down to the gaming community as a whole being far more receptive to spending big bucks than they used to be.
Not something I’m happy for… I only spend money on ESO for chapters and occasional subs. In other games I only purchase DLC. But I have many friends who play gacha games and will gamble away hundreds on a whim.

dcrush

As someone who unsubbed and started a “freeloader” account this thread is very amusing to me.

The reason I unsubbed was because I didn’t like a lot of choices that were being made in the game moving forward - so I decided to vote with my wallet. In hindsight, it has increased my enjoyment of the game because all the houses, all the DLC and all the furnishing packs that I bought with my freeloader gold feel like achievements whereas I did not have that feeling when I just entered my credit card details. Nothing to do with feeling “noble” (that part seems like a bit of projection going on, OP) - I chose to play this way and others chose a different way. Just a personal choice.

o_Primate_o

You can buy only convenience (eg skyshards) and skill lines. you cannot buy DPS, survivability, healing. so when it comes to killing things or collecting gear/resources, you gain no advantage with eso+ nor buying things with crowns. Buying clears with gold (sometimes IRL cash) is cheating imo but ppl do it.

Amottica

It's interesting. It's very interesting, as I have never been motivated to grind for gold to get a house of mount. Once someone has a mount that kind of ends and it is the same with a house.

My main motivation for playing this game is to have fun. The mount and, to a small degree, a house are just tools. They are secondary to the reason we—well, most of us—are here, which is to enjoy playing the game.

Oh, my homes and most mounts were free. No grinding is required. NOOOOONE

Further, it is not cheating in any form or by any means. Oh, and Nope, and there is no real argument about that.

Oh, and the term "freeloader" is very negative. Everyone has paid outside of the brief trial weekends, so there are no freeloaders. I'm just stating a very plain fact here.

Enjoy the game regardless of how mounts and homes are obtained, as no one cares how someone got theirs.

Elsonso

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I think the term is becoming so watered down to lose all meaning if everything is considered P2W because someone, somewhere might describe winning as differently to beating the game's hardest content or defeating another player.

I disagree. I think that the P2W used by studios to be so extreme that no one took into account lesser implementations. This is not a black and white thing. There is a spectrum. Studios like it when they can slip through the cracks in the definition because what they are doing "isn't as bad".

zaria

Elsonso wrote: »

LootAllTheStuff wrote: »

To add to @Danikat 's point: if you're playing the game through XBox GamePass, you're already paying a monthly subscription to the owners of ZOS/ESO just for access to the base game + Morrowind. The choice then is pay a second subscription for access to all the content, or do what Danikat said and pay as you go. There's still a ton of grind if a person isn't prepared to drop $$$ every month for crowns. So I'm really not sure what the OP's actual objection is?

There is still a ton of grind for people who subscribe to ESO Plus. This thread presents ESO Plus like it is some sort of bypass or all access pass to some game Utopia. It is not. I don't even think it is worth spending money on, actually I had ESO Plus for most of the 10 years. Now I don't. It is their loss, not mine.

I say the only grind ESO+ players escape is the inventory mini-game, or its at least much less of an problem.
Played with an pretty new player cp 300 something, so not gold to max out inventory or bank and no eso so he needed banker and merchant all the time. Think he did not understand the deconstruct assistant or it would simply create so much materials he would not be better off.

Zombocalypse

TaSheen wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Stafford197 wrote: »

P2W is just a spectrum these days which takes the form of pay for convenience to varying degrees. I really don’t care personally and in fact most players don’t care either. It’s only annoying when the base game experience of a game becomes degraded to an extent to where playing without spending money on the Cash Shop feels too crippling.

I think a lot of people who think this way either didn't experience or don't remember when lots of games put the best gear in the cash shop and didn't care about gameplay. I remember when those games were rampant.

You could not play those games and not be crippled by ignoring the cash shop. Back then, myself and many others demanded monetization come from dlc models, paid subs, or convenience/cosmetics only on the cash shop. Word of mouth spread about games that were P2W and people were encouraged to avoid them.

This way gameplay would be prioritized because the money came from the game being fun to play and not from buying the strongest item to defeat other players. That's why it was called P2W, because it was literally a rejection of paying to have a competitive advantage over others, of power in the cash shop.

I think the term is becoming so watered down to lose all meaning if everything is considered P2W because someone, somewhere might describe winning as differently to beating the game's hardest content or defeating another player.

Yeah. I remember those days. You are correct.

You gotta take into consideration what my background is. I played FFXIV for five years before moving on to other games. The only thing in their cash shop that you can buy that will give you an advantage in gameplay is a pointless, extra retainer that gives hoarders extra storage space.

zaria

Elsonso wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I think the term is becoming so watered down to lose all meaning if everything is considered P2W because someone, somewhere might describe winning as differently to beating the game's hardest content or defeating another player.

I disagree. I think that the P2W used by studios to be so extreme that no one took into account lesser implementations. This is not a black and white thing. There is a spectrum. Studios like it when they can slip through the cracks in the definition because what they are doing "isn't as bad".

It go all the way from just selling power as in OP potions and stuff in the cash shop or loot crates who might have OP stuff who all agree is bad to required content you have to pay for.

In ESO new trials and dungeons will often have OP sets, but its new content and WOW has done this more aggressively for 18 years, new expansions is new content but raises the level cap and everything moves on to new zone.
ESO is guilty of the new content is required for high level play but not in the extend of WOW who is an subscription game.
But this become their model before P2W was really an thing.

zaria

o_Primate_o wrote: »

You can buy only convenience (eg skyshards) and skill lines. you cannot buy DPS, survivability, healing. so when it comes to killing things or collecting gear/resources, you gain no advantage with eso+ nor buying things with crowns. Buying clears with gold (sometimes IRL cash) is cheating imo but ppl do it.

Buying clears for gold is legal in the game.
This includes the tricks of just missing an best in slot weapon for an dungeon and then sell runs for that weapon.
You need 3 other players one will leave before last boss and buyer is invited. Normal so not hard.
Friend was part of these runs for some time. Also legal as I understand.

Amottica

zaria wrote: »

o_Primate_o wrote: »

You can buy only convenience (eg skyshards) and skill lines. you cannot buy DPS, survivability, healing. so when it comes to killing things or collecting gear/resources, you gain no advantage with eso+ nor buying things with crowns. Buying clears with gold (sometimes IRL cash) is cheating imo but ppl do it.

Buying clears for gold is legal in the game.
This includes the tricks of just missing an best in slot weapon for an dungeon and then sell runs for that weapon.
You need 3 other players one will leave before last boss and buyer is invited. Normal so not hard.
Friend was part of these runs for some time. Also legal as I understand.

Only as long as they are playing their own game to get the clear. If they pay someone and that someone logs in to play the game for them, then that is a violation of the TOS for both the account holder and the person who played the game to get them their trifecta. They got a little vacation from the game.

Bammlschwamml

Amottica wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

o_Primate_o wrote: »

You can buy only convenience (eg skyshards) and skill lines. you cannot buy DPS, survivability, healing. so when it comes to killing things or collecting gear/resources, you gain no advantage with eso+ nor buying things with crowns. Buying clears with gold (sometimes IRL cash) is cheating imo but ppl do it.

Buying clears for gold is legal in the game.
This includes the tricks of just missing an best in slot weapon for an dungeon and then sell runs for that weapon.
You need 3 other players one will leave before last boss and buyer is invited. Normal so not hard.
Friend was part of these runs for some time. Also legal as I understand.

Only as long as they are playing their own game to get the clear. If they pay someone and that someone logs in to play the game for them, then that is a violation of the TOS for both the account holder and the person who played the game to get them their trifecta. They got a little vacation from the game.

On Playstation you can let others play with your account via "share play" for an hour at a time. The delay is extremely annoying, but you can still farm stuff like veteran maelstrom arena. Both players have to be online for this, and you don't have to share your passwords or anything, so it should be ok, right?

Iriidius

Seems like OP does not have a problem with having to pay but that the things he pays for feel like cheating. He does not envie the subscribers for the things they get for paying but the nonsubscribers for beeing able to earn things and „enjoy the grind“(althought most players do not enjoy grinding and some are willing to pay to skip). But insteat of not buying these things giving up the privileges he considers unfair and earn them he wants to force everyone to subscribe to play the game without current adventages of eso+ and still let everyone grind.
A lot of houses are offered only for crowns so there is no noble task of earning his house right with gold except you count buying from a crownseller and even a subscriber will probably buy a house with gold if possible because the crowns can be sold for much more gold to a player than the houses gold price.

There are no freeloaders in the game, you buy the game or you cant play and you pay for eso+, dlcs, chapters, houses and other crown store items or you do not get these things. ZoS takes payment for their services from players and make profit, players do not have a moral duty to buy things they do not consider worth buying to support the company.
Especially when ZoS releases new OP sets/skills every chapter/dlc only to nerf them later to make players that are not interested in the content still buy the chapters/dlcs because they otherwise have disadvantage conpeting in PvP/trials/dungeons/IA/ arenas.
If subscribers have unfair advantage over nomsubscribers removing nonsubscribers from game does not make it fairer.

Amottica

Bammlschwamml wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

o_Primate_o wrote: »

You can buy only convenience (eg skyshards) and skill lines. you cannot buy DPS, survivability, healing. so when it comes to killing things or collecting gear/resources, you gain no advantage with eso+ nor buying things with crowns. Buying clears with gold (sometimes IRL cash) is cheating imo but ppl do it.

Buying clears for gold is legal in the game.
This includes the tricks of just missing an best in slot weapon for an dungeon and then sell runs for that weapon.
You need 3 other players one will leave before last boss and buyer is invited. Normal so not hard.
Friend was part of these runs for some time. Also legal as I understand.

Only as long as they are playing their own game to get the clear. If they pay someone and that someone logs in to play the game for them, then that is a violation of the TOS for both the account holder and the person who played the game to get them their trifecta. They got a little vacation from the game.

On Playstation you can let others play with your account via "share play" for an hour at a time. The delay is extremely annoying, but you can still farm stuff like veteran maelstrom arena. Both players have to be online for this, and you don't have to share your passwords or anything, so it should be ok, right?

It sounds like shareplay is not at same level as the person who normally plays that ESO account and that it would be difficult to get the trifectas as a result. Especially the no-death run. I also assume they have access to the same characters.

I cannot say permitting access via shareplay would be ok. That is between the PS player and Zenimax and Sony.

If they shared achievements, it would be unfortunate and make some things meaningless on PS. I am thinking emperor and even the PvP leaderboards since. Cyrodiil leaderboards have more to do with how much time someone spends in Cyrodiil and little to do with their skill level.

Stafford197

Amottica wrote: »

Bammlschwamml wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

o_Primate_o wrote: »

You can buy only convenience (eg skyshards) and skill lines. you cannot buy DPS, survivability, healing. so when it comes to killing things or collecting gear/resources, you gain no advantage with eso+ nor buying things with crowns. Buying clears with gold (sometimes IRL cash) is cheating imo but ppl do it.

Buying clears for gold is legal in the game.
This includes the tricks of just missing an best in slot weapon for an dungeon and then sell runs for that weapon.
You need 3 other players one will leave before last boss and buyer is invited. Normal so not hard.
Friend was part of these runs for some time. Also legal as I understand.

Only as long as they are playing their own game to get the clear. If they pay someone and that someone logs in to play the game for them, then that is a violation of the TOS for both the account holder and the person who played the game to get them their trifecta. They got a little vacation from the game.

On Playstation you can let others play with your account via "share play" for an hour at a time. The delay is extremely annoying, but you can still farm stuff like veteran maelstrom arena. Both players have to be online for this, and you don't have to share your passwords or anything, so it should be ok, right?

It sounds like shareplay is not at same level as the person who normally plays that ESO account and that it would be difficult to get the trifectas as a result. Especially the no-death run. I also assume they have access to the same characters.

I cannot say permitting access via shareplay would be ok. That is between the PS player and Zenimax and Sony.

If they shared achievements, it would be unfortunate and make some things meaningless on PS. I am thinking emperor and even the PvP leaderboards since. Cyrodiil leaderboards have more to do with how much time someone spends in Cyrodiil and little to do with their skill level.

Can confirm just about everything has been carried for on PS, and extensively so. Stuff like dungeon HMs/trifectas, Arena no deaths/trifectas, Emp, and easier trial trifectas are common carries. Nothing has actual meaning except for Dreadsail Reef’s trifecta and the most recent trial trifecta each year.

pklemming

Use the ESO+ crowns to buy the DLCs and then just drop it. It is easy enough to do without the craft bag now, if you set yourself rules.

I don't mind supporting a firm whom I have some faith in. They have gradually eroded any faith with a series of extremely bad patches and an inability to listen to the playerbase.

I am now treating ESO as a free game, with free game expectations. Azureblight was the final straw for me. I am better spending money elsewhere.