With being subscribed to ESO Plus and realizing I ain't getting to purchase everything soon...

Zombocalypse · October 26

... I mean... If a big motivation for players to grind at all is to buy a house or buy a mount with gold, then isn't buying those with crowns a form of cheating? You're purchasing stuff that non-paying (except for buying the game itself) players would instead work hard for with gold.

Look, I'm all for discouraging freeloaders to be freeloaders, but if acquiring cool stuff in the game can be made faster by spending money, then don't us, the paying customers, get special privileges just because we're paying?

Just require freeloaders to pay the subscription to even be able to play at all. Otherwise, this game is pay to win. Bro, I hate looking at a freeloader in the game and knowing he is taking on the noble task of earning his houses right with gold while I just throw money to Zenimax so I can immediately buy a mansion while his broke-behind gets to enjoy the joys of grinding.

Dude, I don't wanna end up getting a bonus in my salary from work and then being able to buy an expensive item in the Crown Store after I'm so close to earning enough gold to get it for free.

It's hard for me to explain this...

The sought-after items in the game... Bro... Only master crafters or elite content-doing players should be able to provide them to other players. Not damn crowns.

What the heck man. Lock all noteworthy items from hard-to-beat content and master crafting, otherwise, what is the point of working hard for anything?

Danikat · October 26

I know you picked up the term "freeloader" from someone in another of your topics, but you should be aware it's generally considered a negative, even insulting, term. I get the impression you don't mean it that way, but it generally implies someone who manipulates other people to get things for free that they should pay for. Like the 'friend' who comes out for drinks and always manages to leave before it's their turn to pay for a round.

People who aren't paying for ESO+ aren't doing anything wrong or dishonest. It doesn't even mean they're not paying for ESO beyond the initial cost of the game. Many people choose to buy crown packs to get stuff from the crown store instead of subscribing because they prefer one-off payments as and when they want something to a fixed monthly payment.

Also ZOS tried to make everyone pay a subscription, that was their original plan for the game and it went so badly that less than a year after release they switched to the current model because the alternative was shutting the game down entirely. It's highly unlikely they'd ever consider changing it back and if they did they'd lose a lot of people because, as I said, there's a lot of people who don't like that payment model.

Finally most of the things in the crown store are not available for gold, and many of the ones which are in the crown store and in game are more often considered a 'trick' to take advantage of the ignorance of new players like you than giving people who will pay crowns an unfair advantage. Vampire and werewolf bites are probably the worst example - you can get a free bite from most werewolf or vampire players, and there's NPCs who can infect you too (they can be annoying to find, but it's just a matter of being in the right place at the right time), no one is going to envy you for the "unfair advantage" paying for something you could have gotten free.

Many houses (but not all) are an exception to that, they are available for either gold or crowns, but it's unlikely anyone else will care which option you choose. If you think it would be more meaningful for you to save up gold for one then do that, but if you're planning to subscribe to ESO+ anyway you'll want something to do with the crowns. Although equally if you play the game for any length of time you'll want something to do with the gold you get too.

LootAllTheStuff · October 26

To add to @Danikat 's point: if you're playing the game through XBox GamePass, you're already paying a monthly subscription to the owners of ZOS/ESO just for access to the base game + Morrowind. The choice then is pay a second subscription for access to all the content, or do what Danikat said and pay as you go. There's still a ton of grind if a person isn't prepared to drop $$$ every month for crowns. So I'm really not sure what the OP's actual objection is?

valenwood_vegan · October 26

Suggest trying to enjoy the game and being less concerned about what everyone else is doing or thinking.

Soarora · October 26

You get one apartment free per character. Apartments also don’t cost a lot. You also get a mount at level like 10 unless you bought an edition of the game that gives you a mount to start like I did. The crownstore is only pay to win when it comes to housing, and even then you can make some good houses without spending crowns. Apart from some houses and some silly items like vamp bites and some motifs, the items in the crown store are not obtainable any other way.

Elsonso · October 26

LootAllTheStuff wrote: »

To add to @Danikat 's point: if you're playing the game through XBox GamePass, you're already paying a monthly subscription to the owners of ZOS/ESO just for access to the base game + Morrowind. The choice then is pay a second subscription for access to all the content, or do what Danikat said and pay as you go. There's still a ton of grind if a person isn't prepared to drop $$$ every month for crowns. So I'm really not sure what the OP's actual objection is?

There is still a ton of grind for people who subscribe to ESO Plus. This thread presents ESO Plus like it is some sort of bypass or all access pass to some game Utopia. It is not. I don't even think it is worth spending money on, actually I had ESO Plus for most of the 10 years. Now I don't. It is their loss, not mine.

AngryPenguin · October 26

No need to subscribe to ESO+ if you don't want to. With the market as it is now may as well just sell anything you don't use to the general vendor to clear your bag space.

Tandor · October 26

I'm still waiting after years of these threads for someone to explain exactly what it is in the Crown Store or ESO Plus that constitutes "Pay to Win".

AngryPenguin · October 26

Tandor wrote: »

I'm still waiting after years of these threads for someone to explain exactly what it is in the Crown Store or ESO Plus that constitutes "Pay to Win".

If housing and fashion really are "end game", then every cosmetic and housing item in the crown store is pay to win.

kringled_1 · October 26

Tandor wrote: »

I'm still waiting after years of these threads for someone to explain exactly what it is in the Crown Store or ESO Plus that constitutes "Pay to Win".

Not having to spend lots of time on managing craft materials lol.

Elsonso · October 26

Tandor wrote: »

I'm still waiting after years of these threads for someone to explain exactly what it is in the Crown Store or ESO Plus that constitutes "Pay to Win".

Anything that allows a player to advance a character using Crown items. Winning is not just paid power, it is also paid advancement. ESO is not a large offender, but it is one.

Soarora · October 26

Tandor wrote: »

I'm still waiting after years of these threads for someone to explain exactly what it is in the Crown Store or ESO Plus that constitutes "Pay to Win".

I think it’s just housing, since the best houses are locked behind crowns and most fx and giant trees and statues are also locked behind crowns. Also spending irl money instead of having to buy mats and furnishing plans.

Tandor · October 26

All the items listed in the posts above this are items of convenience, cosmetic items and/or quality of life items. None of them wins the game for you.

ArchMikem · October 26

This game is Buy to Play. Everyone here spent some amount of money just to be able to play.

No one here is a freeloader.

Elsonso · October 26

Tandor wrote: »

All the items listed in the posts above this are items of convenience, cosmetic items and/or quality of life items. None of them wins the game for you.

Those 'convenience' items are all about winning. Not the power to beat some boss, or another player. This game is not like that. Winning advancement. Winning time. Convenience and bypasses are the 'evil' here.

I am fine with the pay to win here. but I don't hide what it is. It is fairly easy to not engage with it, and playing here requires co-existence. Narrowing the definition of "winning" is just a means to avoid admitting what it is. Embrace the truth. Or don't. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ It doesn't change what it is.

Zombocalypse · October 26

Elsonso wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

All the items listed in the posts above this are items of convenience, cosmetic items and/or quality of life items. None of them wins the game for you.

Those 'convenience' items are all about winning. Not the power to beat some boss, or another player. This game is not like that. Winning advancement. Winning time. Convenience and bypasses are the 'evil' here.

I am fine with the pay to win here. but I don't hide what it is. It is fairly easy to not engage with it, and playing here requires co-existence. Narrowing the definition of "winning" is just a means to avoid admitting what it is. Embrace the truth. Or don't. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ It doesn't change what it is.

Well I'm glad that you recognize that it's pay to win. Thank you.

With that said, am I now supposed to lord my superiority to other players because I have a better real-life salary and pay for ESO+ because of it? I don't mind, but I gotta know if that's the case.

Everyone, just tell me straight... Elder Scrolls Online is not truly a "game". It's actually a sandbox fantasy for players to immerse themselves with while encountering meager challenges and getting to enjoy the quests, stories, and NPC interactions to make up for the fact that they're a filthy casual? And it only becomes a "game" when some players artificially makes it so by doing hard content instead of overland content?

Don't get me wrong. I am not complaining. I like it that way. But I gotta know if it is, in fact, that way.

Orbital78 · October 26

Zombocalypse wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

This game is Buy to Play. Everyone here spent some amount of money just to be able to play.

No one here is a freeloader.

[snip]

not really, generalize much? I mean I know the game is semi-pay to win since each chapter usually has some sort of shiny new item sets or system locked behind a pay wall. People are able to afford varying amounts of game spending. I have personally bought every DLC up until Gold Road so far. I think I did get a few free codes from Stream Team members as well. I have done ESO Plus many times but often go periods of inactivity with it and play semi-casual.

As was mentioned, perhaps just enjoy the game and not worry about others. ZoS has bragged about making millions from ESO thus far, I don't think Bethesda is a struggling indie company.

[edited to remove quote]

Zombocalypse · October 26

Orbital78 wrote: »

Zombocalypse wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

This game is Buy to Play. Everyone here spent some amount of money just to be able to play.

No one here is a freeloader.

[snip]

not really, generalize much? I mean I know the game is semi-pay to win since each chapter usually has some sort of shiny new item sets or system locked behind a pay wall. People are able to afford varying amounts of game spending. I have personally bought every DLC up until Gold Road so far. I think I did get a few free codes from Stream Team members as well. I have done ESO Plus many times but often go periods of inactivity with it and play semi-casual.

As was mentioned, perhaps just enjoy the game and not worry about others. ZoS has bragged about making millions from ESO thus far, I don't think Bethesda is a struggling indie company.

Thanks. I'll try not to worry.

[edited to remove quote]

SeaGtGruff · October 26

I haven't read or tried to digest your entire post, so these are just some of my own comments about housing, not necessarily responses to any of your questions or comments.

As already mentioned, each character can get 1 free apartment, although this is subject to restrictions-- namely, there are only a certain number of free apartments available in the game (3 in the base game zones-- 1 per alliance-- plus 1 for every chapter that's been released), and (I think) a character can't get a free apartment if they've visited other housing you already own. (I'm not sure of the details-- whether it's determined by whether or not the character has earned a housing achievement by visiting housing you own, or what-- but I know I've had characters who'd never acquired a free apartment who couldn't collect the new apartment when another chapter came out.) Each of the (potentially) free apartments can also be purchased for 3000 gold.

Many housing properties can be purchased with varying amounts of gold, depending on their classifications-- i.e., how many players can visit them at a time and how many furnishings can be placed in them. Some of them can be purchased as long as you've got enough gold, but others can't be purchased unless the character who's trying to purchase them has earned a given achievement. In any case, housing that's purchased with gold is never pre-furnished, except for maybe a few things like trees, bushes, rocks, lamp posts, candles, etc. There is also a furnished version of most housing which can only be purchased from the Crown Store with Crowns. The unfurnished version of housing which requires an achievement if you want to purchase it with gold can also be purchased from the Crown Store with Crowns without needing to earn the associated achievement first.

Housing which can't be purchased with gold falls into three categories-- special housing awarded to players during an event or other celebration; housing which is only available from the Crown Store and is always available; and housing which is only available from the Crown Store as a limited-time offer.

Special event housing may require earning event tickets during events, using event tickets to buy fragments needed to create a morphable non-combat pet, and using more event tickets to buy other fragments needed to morph the non-combat pet into a special event house. Such housing often becomes available again during other events in other years, although obtaining a "returning" event house would require using your event tickets to buy the older fragments instead of spending them on the newer fragments and other event items (such as furnishings or outfit style pages).

A few special event housing was awarded "for free" to players at the end of promotional events which celebrated the chapter and DLC releases from that year, although players could only collect the "free" reward housing if they owned the chapter from that year-- even if they didn't join the game and purchase the chapter until after the promotional event had ended, as long as it was during the brief window of time when the "free" housing was available to be collected from the Crown Store. Housing of this type sometimes becomes available again as a limited-time Crowns-only offer.

As for housing which is only available from the Crown Store as a limited-time offer, it generally becomes available again in the Crown Store as another limited-time offer, although there's no telling how many years may pass before it returns.

Northwold · October 26

I think the objection is to monetisation (or I guess it is, it might be about gold for crowns) but, well, this is the way many MMOs are, for better or worse.

The real world price of houses in ESO is breathtaking -- many of them cost more than many complete AAA games each, and they're backed by deliberate fear of missing out selling tactics. But it is what it is and has no impact on, eg, a player's combat ability.

If you don't like the prices, don't pay them. If enough people didn't buy the things perhaps there would be commercial merit in pricing them more appropriately and targeting a higher volume of sales.

Heren · October 26

Zombocalypse wrote: »

the noble task of earning his houses right with gold

Never stop dude.

Soarora · October 26

Elsonso wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

All the items listed in the posts above this are items of convenience, cosmetic items and/or quality of life items. None of them wins the game for you.

Those 'convenience' items are all about winning. Not the power to beat some boss, or another player. This game is not like that. Winning advancement. Winning time. Convenience and bypasses are the 'evil' here.

I am fine with the pay to win here. but I don't hide what it is. It is fairly easy to not engage with it, and playing here requires co-existence. Narrowing the definition of "winning" is just a means to avoid admitting what it is. Embrace the truth. Or don't. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ It doesn't change what it is.

Buying a vamp bite/ww bite isn’t winning, you can get them free immediately by asking zone chat.

Buying skyshards isn’t winning, you have to grind out every skyshard in a zone on one character to buy them on others when you can just do dungeons/public dungeons.

Buying exp boosts isn’t winning, you get a whole bunch through login rewards.

Buying potions isn’t winning, you can easily make them yourself.

The only pay-to-win in this definition I can think of is, I don’t know, eso+ gains exp and currency faster? Which overall is a non-issue. You can buy skill-lines you’ve already leveled on other characters?

Pay-to-win is if you can buy OP gear from the crown store, or buy an instant pass to level to 160 or 3600. You cannot. Imperials aren’t overpowered, necro and warden are pretty dead. Only thing there I can think of aside from housing is MAYBE arcanist but you can still play completely fine on any other class.

Stafford197 · October 26

I can go ingame right now to:

1. Spend $10,000 USD on Crowns, and then convert all of those Crowns into in-game Gold via gifting.

2. Spend my Gold to purchase an unlimited supply of any tradable items such as gear, materials, collectables, etc.

3. Spend my Gold to purchase Carries for any content or grinding, to acquire all non-tradable items, titles, collectables, or achievements I might want. FYI, an All Drops Trial Carry during an event can net me in a one trial run the same drops as if I had run the trial up to 24x individual times….

4. Spend my Real Money to unlock unlimited material space, double housing furniture slots, instant full Skill Line progression on my character, amongst an huge amount of other Real Money-only services.

Everyone knows this game is P2W due to its unlimited Pay for Convenience. The entire game has been structured for this purpose and ESO isn’t the only offender. A lot of games these days do it to varying degrees, so it’s sad how certain game communities will try to sugarcoat it for the game they like. You can call it whatever term you like, who cares if it’s called “P2W” or not, the reality doesn’t change.

SeaGtGruff · October 26

Stafford197 wrote: »

Everyone knows this game is P2W due to its unlimited Pay for Convenience.

So you're saying that I should be winning because I've got ESO Plus? I guess that means everyone who is defeating me in PvP must be cheating in some way. Thank you! I'll start reporting them from now on!

Soarora · October 26

Stafford197 wrote: »

I can go ingame right now to:

1. Spend $10,000 USD on Crowns, and then convert all of those Crowns into in-game Gold via gifting.

2. Spend my Gold to purchase an unlimited supply of any tradable items such as gear, materials, collectables, etc.

3. Spend my Gold to purchase Carries for any content or grinding, to acquire all non-tradable items, titles, collectables, or achievements I might want. FYI, an All Drops Trial Carry during an event can net me in a one trial run the same drops as if I had run the trial up to 24x individual times….

4. Spend my Real Money to unlock unlimited material space, double housing furniture slots, instant full Skill Line progression on my character, amongst an huge amount of other Real Money-only services.

Everyone knows this game is P2W due to its unlimited Pay for Convenience. The entire game has been structured for this purpose and ESO isn’t the only offender. A lot of games these days do it to varying degrees, so it’s sad how certain game communities will try to sugarcoat it for the game they like. You can call it whatever term you like, who cares if it’s called “P2W” or not, the reality doesn’t change.

Okay but carries aren't sold in the crown store nor are they included in eso+ and it doesn't give you entry into the associated endgame community. Gear also doesn't make you win, you have to know how to use the gear.

Elsonso · October 26

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Stafford197 wrote: »

Everyone knows this game is P2W due to its unlimited Pay for Convenience.

So you're saying that I should be winning because I've got ESO Plus? I guess that means everyone who is defeating me in PvP must be cheating in some way. Thank you! I'll start reporting them from now on!

It isn't about power. It is about time and effort. Buying skyshards means that the player is not doing that for the new character. They could do it, but rather than spending days doing it, they do it in hours. Grinding bypass. It accelerates character leveling by providing skill points faster. Winning time and getting the player into end game content, faster. Nothing about P2W requires that it be unavailable in the game. MMOs do that, and that is bad, but the game does not have to.

Like I said, narrowing the definition of "winning" is just a means to avoid admitting what it is. If that makes someone feel better about buying those things, or playing ESO, or not playing a game that is worse than ESO, then so be it.

Edit: you->they

Tandor · October 26

Elsonso wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

All the items listed in the posts above this are items of convenience, cosmetic items and/or quality of life items. None of them wins the game for you.

Those 'convenience' items are all about winning. Not the power to beat some boss, or another player. This game is not like that. Winning advancement. Winning time. Convenience and bypasses are the 'evil' here.

I am fine with the pay to win here. but I don't hide what it is. It is fairly easy to not engage with it, and playing here requires co-existence. Narrowing the definition of "winning" is just a means to avoid admitting what it is. Embrace the truth. Or don't. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ It doesn't change what it is.

I think it's the opposite actually. You're taking the conventional meaning in gaming of "Pay to Win" and you're expanding it. It was never about achieving things more quickly, it was about being the most powerful and thereby beating other players by purchasing things in the cash shop that couldn't be earned in the game. No more, no less, than that. There's nothing in the Crown Store or ESO Plus that comes anywhere near that.

Stafford197 · October 26

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Stafford197 wrote: »

Everyone knows this game is P2W due to its unlimited Pay for Convenience.

So you're saying that I should be winning because I've got ESO Plus? I guess that means everyone who is defeating me in PvP must be cheating in some way. Thank you! I'll start reporting them from now on!

Pretty snarky comment. I laid out what players can do in ESO which causes many to refer to the game as P2W.

I also said we didn't have to use the term “P2W”, since some players like yourself do not consider Pay for Convenience to matter. Some do, some don’t, it really doesn’t matter.

The correlation to PvP would be to earn unlimited Gold via Crown gifting, and then to purchase all gear/items and carries to level you up.
You can join PvP on a fully maxed out build in a few days, compared to a truly new player would might take years to get to that point. Again, you might not consider this P2W and that’s fine, but many do. It’s the modern approach games tend to take.

Tandor · October 26

Stafford197 wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Stafford197 wrote: »

Everyone knows this game is P2W due to its unlimited Pay for Convenience.

So you're saying that I should be winning because I've got ESO Plus? I guess that means everyone who is defeating me in PvP must be cheating in some way. Thank you! I'll start reporting them from now on!

Pretty snarky comment. I laid out what players can do in ESO which causes many to refer to the game as P2W.

I also said we didn't have to use the term “P2W”, since some players like yourself do not consider Pay for Convenience to matter. Some do, some don’t, it really doesn’t matter.

The correlation to PvP would be to earn unlimited Gold via Crown gifting, and then to purchase all gear/items and carries to level you up.
You can join PvP on a fully maxed out build in a few days, compared to a truly new player would might take years to get to that point. Again, you might not consider this P2W and that’s fine, but many do. It’s the modern approach games tend to take.

Again, I think it's the opposite. Choosing to advance by spending real money rather than by spending time playing the game is the modern approach some gamers tend to make. As long as the alternative of just playing the game to achieve the same ends is there then they're paying for convenience, not to win.

Pelanora · October 26

Soarora wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

All the items listed in the posts above this are items of convenience, cosmetic items and/or quality of life items. None of them wins the game for you.

Those 'convenience' items are all about winning. Not the power to beat some boss, or another player. This game is not like that. Winning advancement. Winning time. Convenience and bypasses are the 'evil' here.

I am fine with the pay to win here. but I don't hide what it is. It is fairly easy to not engage with it, and playing here requires co-existence. Narrowing the definition of "winning" is just a means to avoid admitting what it is. Embrace the truth. Or don't. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ It doesn't change what it is.

Buying a vamp bite/ww bite isn’t winning, you can get them free immediately by asking zone chat.

Buying skyshards isn’t winning, you have to grind out every skyshard in a zone on one character to buy them on others when you can just do dungeons/public dungeons.

Buying exp boosts isn’t winning, you get a whole bunch through login rewards.

Buying potions isn’t winning, you can easily make them yourself.

The only pay-to-win in this definition I can think of is, I don’t know, eso+ gains exp and currency faster? Which overall is a non-issue. You can buy skill-lines you’ve already leveled on other characters?

Pay-to-win is if you can buy OP gear from the crown store, or buy an instant pass to level to 160 or 3600. You cannot. Imperials aren’t overpowered, necro and warden are pretty dead. Only thing there I can think of aside from housing is MAYBE arcanist but you can still play completely fine on any other class.

This is the correct understanding of pay to win.

Pay to play is not the same as pay to win.

Stafford197 · October 26

Tandor wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

All the items listed in the posts above this are items of convenience, cosmetic items and/or quality of life items. None of them wins the game for you.

Those 'convenience' items are all about winning. Not the power to beat some boss, or another player. This game is not like that. Winning advancement. Winning time. Convenience and bypasses are the 'evil' here.

I am fine with the pay to win here. but I don't hide what it is. It is fairly easy to not engage with it, and playing here requires co-existence. Narrowing the definition of "winning" is just a means to avoid admitting what it is. Embrace the truth. Or don't. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ It doesn't change what it is.

I think it's the opposite actually. You're taking the conventional meaning in gaming of "Pay to Win" and you're expanding it. It was never about achieving things more quickly, it was about being the most powerful and thereby beating other players by purchasing things in the cash shop that couldn't be earned in the game. No more, no less, than that. There's nothing in the Crown Store or ESO Plus that comes anywhere near that.

Are you familiar with Diablo Immortal by chance? If you are, would you consider Diablo Immortal to be Pay to Win?

I’m really curious how you see it because it’s a game where people have notoriously spent $100K+ to speed up progression. To be clear you CAN play the game for free and earn everything.

You can also choose to not even make a max level character your “definition of winning”. Therefore all spending money does is speed up the progression.