Werewolf noses should pull players out of stealth

Celas_Dranacea

There I said it. Werewolves should be able to pull players out of stealth by virtue of their incredible werewolf nose. Wolves have an uncanny sense of smell, and it would make sense for werewolves to have a strong stealth detection radius. This unique passive bonus would create a reason to have werewolves in pvp groups, as we lack in much other group utility.

Discuss!

Erickson9610

I agree. Here's a few reasons why Werewolf should have some form of Detect:

Werewolves who specialize in bringing players out of stealth exist in the game. Sentries are those enemies (particularly in Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood quests) who can pull players out of stealth. One such example is Dreadclaw, who appears at the end of a Heist in the Secluded Sewers when they are occupied by the Magnar Pack:

(The full video can be found here)

One thing to note is that this Sentry Werewolf character is using sneaking animations as they are trying to pull players out of stealth. This is very similar to the Sentry set, which gives the player Stealth Detection for 10 seconds once every 30 seconds when beginning to crouch. However, Player Werewolves cannot crouch, and thus they can not use this set the way Dreadclaw appears to be. If Werewolves were allowed to sneak, then we could simply use the Sentry set as our Stealth Detection.


Detect Potions are currently Werewolf's only source of Stealth Detection. Because Werewolf cannot slot non-Werewolf abilities, they are limited to what item sets they can equip and what Werewolf abilities they can slot. As mentioned above, Werewolves cannot even use the Sentry set because of the sneaking condition. So, the only way for a Werewolf to have Stealth Detection is to utilize Detect Potions.

---

Personally, I believe Werewolf should be allowed to sneak, and they should only have Stealth Detection around them when they are sneaking. This is similar to Dreadclaw and the Sentry set as described above. Alternatively, they could be given Stealth Detection from a future Werewolf Scribing skill, like some sort of Werewolf equivalent of Expert Hunter.

Regardless, both sneaking and detecting are thematic to Werewolves, and these are critical gameplay mechanics that put Werewolf at a disadvantage for lacking.

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Celas_Dranacea

This is an amazing thoughtful reply @Erickson9610 thank you for your deep thought and consideration.

I like the idea of stealth / crouch tied to detection - almost like your nose is down actively hunting!

Amottica

Erickson9610 wrote: »

I agree. Here's a few reasons why Werewolf should have some form of Detect:

Werewolves who specialize in bringing players out of stealth exist in the game. Sentries are those enemies (particularly in Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood quests) who can pull players out of stealth. One such example is Dreadclaw, who appears at the end of a Heist in the Secluded Sewers when they are occupied by the Magnar Pack:

(The full video can be found here)

One thing to note is that this Sentry Werewolf character is using sneaking animations as they are trying to pull players out of stealth. This is very similar to the Sentry set, which gives the player Stealth Detection for 10 seconds once every 30 seconds when beginning to crouch. However, Player Werewolves cannot crouch, and thus they can not use this set the way Dreadclaw appears to be. If Werewolves were allowed to sneak, then we could simply use the Sentry set as our Stealth Detection.


Detect Potions are currently Werewolf's only source of Stealth Detection. Because Werewolf cannot slot non-Werewolf abilities, they are limited to what item sets they can equip and what Werewolf abilities they can slot. As mentioned above, Werewolves cannot even use the Sentry set because of the sneaking condition. So, the only way for a Werewolf to have Stealth Detection is to utilize Detect Potions.

---

Personally, I believe Werewolf should be allowed to sneak, and they should only have Stealth Detection around them when they are sneaking. This is similar to Dreadclaw and the Sentry set as described above. Alternatively, they could be given Stealth Detection from a future Werewolf Scribing skill, like some sort of Werewolf equivalent of Expert Hunter.

Regardless, both sneaking and detecting are thematic to Werewolves, and these are critical gameplay mechanics that put Werewolf at a disadvantage for lacking.

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_BrianWheeler

That does not seem to be as much a WW thing but merely a sentry thing. The same "skill" is seen on humans, elves, and beast races.

I am not suggesting nothing should change. Sure, give them some detect and take something else away to balance it out. Ofc, it could very well be removing or reducing something desirable.

Erickson9610

Amottica wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

I agree. Here's a few reasons why Werewolf should have some form of Detect:

Werewolves who specialize in bringing players out of stealth exist in the game. Sentries are those enemies (particularly in Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood quests) who can pull players out of stealth. One such example is Dreadclaw, who appears at the end of a Heist in the Secluded Sewers when they are occupied by the Magnar Pack:

(The full video can be found here)

One thing to note is that this Sentry Werewolf character is using sneaking animations as they are trying to pull players out of stealth. This is very similar to the Sentry set, which gives the player Stealth Detection for 10 seconds once every 30 seconds when beginning to crouch. However, Player Werewolves cannot crouch, and thus they can not use this set the way Dreadclaw appears to be. If Werewolves were allowed to sneak, then we could simply use the Sentry set as our Stealth Detection.


Detect Potions are currently Werewolf's only source of Stealth Detection. Because Werewolf cannot slot non-Werewolf abilities, they are limited to what item sets they can equip and what Werewolf abilities they can slot. As mentioned above, Werewolves cannot even use the Sentry set because of the sneaking condition. So, the only way for a Werewolf to have Stealth Detection is to utilize Detect Potions.

---

Personally, I believe Werewolf should be allowed to sneak, and they should only have Stealth Detection around them when they are sneaking. This is similar to Dreadclaw and the Sentry set as described above. Alternatively, they could be given Stealth Detection from a future Werewolf Scribing skill, like some sort of Werewolf equivalent of Expert Hunter.

Regardless, both sneaking and detecting are thematic to Werewolves, and these are critical gameplay mechanics that put Werewolf at a disadvantage for lacking.

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_BrianWheeler

That does not seem to be as much a WW thing but merely a sentry thing. The same "skill" is seen on humans, elves, and beast races.

I am not suggesting nothing should change. Sure, give them some detect and take something else away to balance it out. Ofc, it could very well be removing or reducing something desirable.

Yes, the Sentry thing is not unique to Werewolves. Neither is detecting enemies in general. However, Werewolves are hunters, and they need to be able to track their prey. Dreadclaw happens to be a great example of that, but they're not the only Werewolf character who uses that prowling/hunting/sneaking animation.

I'm not sure what might be removed from Werewolf (if anything) to make room for Stealth Detection. Maybe it'll be sourced from a Scribed ability, so Werewolf players must choose which of their original 5 abilities to swap out for one which grants Stealth Detection.

I argue that it's thematic and desirable for the Werewolf playstyle to be given Stealth Detection in some capacity, and the idea of sneaking to enable Stealth Detection is both thematic and a considerable tradeoff — you would be trading your Movement Speed for Stealth Detection, which isn't always a desirable tradeoff in PvP, anyway.

Tommy_The_Gun

Here is how I see it:

Whenever you take damage from a target or deal damage to a target that used invisibility or sneak within last 3 seconds (or was invisible / sneaking 3 seconds ago), you place a "scent mark" debuff on them for 4 seconds, stacking up to 5 times (max 20 seconds). This debuff also can be re-freshed. Target can purge this debuff or debuff will be removed if target moved 50 meters away from you.

Debuff allows you to see the target if they will go into sneak or invisibility. This would work like NB's Piercing Mark where only the caster (WW in this case) can see the invisible target.

Something like this would add the feeling of "using your nose" to track hidden targets and "catching scent" of your pray, instead of making it feel like a magicka based detection. It would also add a nice active counter-play for stealth game-play while still keeping it possible to gank WWs and catch them by surprise.

Simply adding a passive "always on" detection would be way too strong (and kinda game breaking) as it would effectively disable every form of stealth gameplay. Basically something like this would be free detection potion / skill that for the most part are considered a very powerful effects skill budget wise. Not to mention that with something like this, WW would become basically immune to ganks - which should not be the case.

Major_Mangle

I'd put it behind some condition that when a target has a bleed on them and drops below (X% HP) and are within a certain radius of a werewolf you're detected by them (not everyone around the werewolf just the werewolf).

Chilly-McFreeze

Amottica wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

I agree. Here's a few reasons why Werewolf should have some form of Detect:

Werewolves who specialize in bringing players out of stealth exist in the game. Sentries are those enemies (particularly in Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood quests) who can pull players out of stealth. One such example is Dreadclaw, who appears at the end of a Heist in the Secluded Sewers when they are occupied by the Magnar Pack:

(The full video can be found here)

One thing to note is that this Sentry Werewolf character is using sneaking animations as they are trying to pull players out of stealth. This is very similar to the Sentry set, which gives the player Stealth Detection for 10 seconds once every 30 seconds when beginning to crouch. However, Player Werewolves cannot crouch, and thus they can not use this set the way Dreadclaw appears to be. If Werewolves were allowed to sneak, then we could simply use the Sentry set as our Stealth Detection.


Detect Potions are currently Werewolf's only source of Stealth Detection. Because Werewolf cannot slot non-Werewolf abilities, they are limited to what item sets they can equip and what Werewolf abilities they can slot. As mentioned above, Werewolves cannot even use the Sentry set because of the sneaking condition. So, the only way for a Werewolf to have Stealth Detection is to utilize Detect Potions.

---

Personally, I believe Werewolf should be allowed to sneak, and they should only have Stealth Detection around them when they are sneaking. This is similar to Dreadclaw and the Sentry set as described above. Alternatively, they could be given Stealth Detection from a future Werewolf Scribing skill, like some sort of Werewolf equivalent of Expert Hunter.

Regardless, both sneaking and detecting are thematic to Werewolves, and these are critical gameplay mechanics that put Werewolf at a disadvantage for lacking.

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_BrianWheeler

That does not seem to be as much a WW thing but merely a sentry thing. The same "skill" is seen on humans, elves, and beast races.

I am not suggesting nothing should change. Sure, give them some detect and take something else away to balance it out. Ofc, it could very well be removing or reducing something desirable.

So you think ww are balanced in pvp in their current form?

JaxontheUnfortunate

Lol exactly, "balanced".

BXR_Lonestar

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

There I said it. Werewolves should be able to pull players out of stealth by virtue of their incredible werewolf nose. Wolves have an uncanny sense of smell, and it would make sense for werewolves to have a strong stealth detection radius. This unique passive bonus would create a reason to have werewolves in pvp groups, as we lack in much other group utility.

Discuss!

Been saying this for the past 6 months or so. Werewolves should have a stealth detection passive due to heightened sense of smell. Since the detection is based on sense of smell and not on any magical perception, it should have 100% uptime, and a radius of 10-12 meters and basically function like those guards with lamps when you do the thieves guild missions and you are creeping around in stealth. If they enter it, they are automatically revealed for everyone grouped with the werewolf. This would make werewolves much more desirable in PVP situations.

Erickson9610

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Here is how I see it:

Whenever you take damage from a target or deal damage to a target that used invisibility or sneak within last 3 seconds (or was invisible / sneaking 3 seconds ago), you place a "scent mark" debuff on them for 4 seconds, stacking up to 5 times (max 20 seconds). This debuff also can be re-freshed. Target can purge this debuff or debuff will be removed if target moved 50 meters away from you.

Debuff allows you to see the target if they will go into sneak or invisibility. This would work like NB's Piercing Mark where only the caster (WW in this case) can see the invisible target.

Something like this would add the feeling of "using your nose" to track hidden targets and "catching scent" of your pray, instead of making it feel like a magicka based detection. It would also add a nice active counter-play for stealth game-play while still keeping it possible to gank WWs and catch them by surprise.

Simply adding a passive "always on" detection would be way too strong (and kinda game breaking) as it would effectively disable every form of stealth gameplay. Basically something like this would be free detection potion / skill that for the most part are considered a very powerful effects skill budget wise. Not to mention that with something like this, WW would become basically immune to ganks - which should not be the case.

How about if Werewolf could Detect players in Stealth, but not players who are Invisible?

If Invisibility is magical in nature, then no creature with heightened senses should be able to detect them. But, if they're just crouching and sticking to the shadows, then a beast who is designed by a Daedric Prince to be able to track prey should be able to sense them, since Stealth is not magical by nature.

Maybe Werewolves should just get an increased Stealth Detection Radius in their passives, the way Bosmer have it in theirs.


Further, I'd like to add that it'd still be possible to gank Werewolves even if they could passively detect anyone — just use a ranged gank build. Any smart Werewolf player is going to be holding block, using Detect Potions, and occasionally casting Roar or Claws to pull anyone near them out of stealth.

Elreydelleon

This sounds like an excellent way to rebalance werewolves in a sensible fashion. Not only are potions the only way a werewolf can effectively detect, but wolves also cannot make use of the various skills that can help to detect.
At the very least, this could effectively be incorporated into Scribing, where one could morph a skill to include a detection passive function. Then werewolves will have additional incentive to invest in Scribing for it.
A little extra work for a valuable payoff that doesn't just get defaulted into the skill line. Attuning the natural wolf senses to your benefit, and being higher on the skill line can ensure that you must invest in it to begin with.

I'll personally go so far as to suggest I'd be entirely willing to construct an appropriate grimoire or script via antiquities or the like just for this capability.

Erickson9610

Elreydelleon wrote: »

This sounds like an excellent way to rebalance werewolves in a sensible fashion. Not only are potions the only way a werewolf can effectively detect, but wolves also cannot make use of the various skills that can help to detect.
At the very least, this could effectively be incorporated into Scribing, where one could morph a skill to include a detection passive function. Then werewolves will have additional incentive to invest in Scribing for it.
A little extra work for a valuable payoff that doesn't just get defaulted into the skill line. Attuning the natural wolf senses to your benefit, and being higher on the skill line can ensure that you must invest in it to begin with.

I'll personally go so far as to suggest I'd be entirely willing to construct an appropriate grimoire or script via antiquities or the like just for this capability.

I like the idea of Detect being a brand new Script! We could get a Detect Script, for drawing enemies out of Stealth/Invisibility, and an Invisibility Script, for going invisible or reducing our Stealth Detection Radius.

For instance, the Detect Script could be added to existing Grimoires like Banner Bearer, Soul Burst, Trample, and then to some Werewolf Grimoire, while the Invisibility Script could be added to Wield Soul, Ulfsild's Contingency, and the like.

If not having Stealth Detection applied by the base skill the way Expert Hunter works, I'd hope we would get to at least add Stealth Detection via Script to some future Werewolf Grimoire.

Amottica

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

I agree. Here's a few reasons why Werewolf should have some form of Detect:

Werewolves who specialize in bringing players out of stealth exist in the game. Sentries are those enemies (particularly in Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood quests) who can pull players out of stealth. One such example is Dreadclaw, who appears at the end of a Heist in the Secluded Sewers when they are occupied by the Magnar Pack:

(The full video can be found here)

One thing to note is that this Sentry Werewolf character is using sneaking animations as they are trying to pull players out of stealth. This is very similar to the Sentry set, which gives the player Stealth Detection for 10 seconds once every 30 seconds when beginning to crouch. However, Player Werewolves cannot crouch, and thus they can not use this set the way Dreadclaw appears to be. If Werewolves were allowed to sneak, then we could simply use the Sentry set as our Stealth Detection.


Detect Potions are currently Werewolf's only source of Stealth Detection. Because Werewolf cannot slot non-Werewolf abilities, they are limited to what item sets they can equip and what Werewolf abilities they can slot. As mentioned above, Werewolves cannot even use the Sentry set because of the sneaking condition. So, the only way for a Werewolf to have Stealth Detection is to utilize Detect Potions.

---

Personally, I believe Werewolf should be allowed to sneak, and they should only have Stealth Detection around them when they are sneaking. This is similar to Dreadclaw and the Sentry set as described above. Alternatively, they could be given Stealth Detection from a future Werewolf Scribing skill, like some sort of Werewolf equivalent of Expert Hunter.

Regardless, both sneaking and detecting are thematic to Werewolves, and these are critical gameplay mechanics that put Werewolf at a disadvantage for lacking.

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_BrianWheeler

That does not seem to be as much a WW thing but merely a sentry thing. The same "skill" is seen on humans, elves, and beast races.

I am not suggesting nothing should change. Sure, give them some detect and take something else away to balance it out. Ofc, it could very well be removing or reducing something desirable.

Yes, the Sentry thing is not unique to Werewolves. Neither is detecting enemies in general. However, Werewolves are hunters, and they need to be able to track their prey. Dreadclaw happens to be a great example of that, but they're not the only Werewolf character who uses that prowling/hunting/sneaking animation.

I'm not sure what might be removed from Werewolf (if anything) to make room for Stealth Detection. Maybe it'll be sourced from a Scribed ability, so Werewolf players must choose which of their original 5 abilities to swap out for one which grants Stealth Detection.

I argue that it's thematic and desirable for the Werewolf playstyle to be given Stealth Detection in some capacity, and the idea of sneaking to enable Stealth Detection is both thematic and a considerable tradeoff — you would be trading your Movement Speed for Stealth Detection, which isn't always a desirable tradeoff in PvP, anyway.

Yes, and I was clearly not suggesting WWs were not hunters. I was merely pointing out that the reasons provided for WW having detect were not really a WW reason, as they merely pointed out some areas where detect exists in the game.

As for any possible change, it should not be permanent. It should fall in line with the existing stealth detection skills.

Erickson9610

Amottica wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

I agree. Here's a few reasons why Werewolf should have some form of Detect:

Werewolves who specialize in bringing players out of stealth exist in the game. Sentries are those enemies (particularly in Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood quests) who can pull players out of stealth. One such example is Dreadclaw, who appears at the end of a Heist in the Secluded Sewers when they are occupied by the Magnar Pack:

(The full video can be found here)

One thing to note is that this Sentry Werewolf character is using sneaking animations as they are trying to pull players out of stealth. This is very similar to the Sentry set, which gives the player Stealth Detection for 10 seconds once every 30 seconds when beginning to crouch. However, Player Werewolves cannot crouch, and thus they can not use this set the way Dreadclaw appears to be. If Werewolves were allowed to sneak, then we could simply use the Sentry set as our Stealth Detection.


Detect Potions are currently Werewolf's only source of Stealth Detection. Because Werewolf cannot slot non-Werewolf abilities, they are limited to what item sets they can equip and what Werewolf abilities they can slot. As mentioned above, Werewolves cannot even use the Sentry set because of the sneaking condition. So, the only way for a Werewolf to have Stealth Detection is to utilize Detect Potions.

---

Personally, I believe Werewolf should be allowed to sneak, and they should only have Stealth Detection around them when they are sneaking. This is similar to Dreadclaw and the Sentry set as described above. Alternatively, they could be given Stealth Detection from a future Werewolf Scribing skill, like some sort of Werewolf equivalent of Expert Hunter.

Regardless, both sneaking and detecting are thematic to Werewolves, and these are critical gameplay mechanics that put Werewolf at a disadvantage for lacking.

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_BrianWheeler

That does not seem to be as much a WW thing but merely a sentry thing. The same "skill" is seen on humans, elves, and beast races.

I am not suggesting nothing should change. Sure, give them some detect and take something else away to balance it out. Ofc, it could very well be removing or reducing something desirable.

Yes, the Sentry thing is not unique to Werewolves. Neither is detecting enemies in general. However, Werewolves are hunters, and they need to be able to track their prey. Dreadclaw happens to be a great example of that, but they're not the only Werewolf character who uses that prowling/hunting/sneaking animation.

I'm not sure what might be removed from Werewolf (if anything) to make room for Stealth Detection. Maybe it'll be sourced from a Scribed ability, so Werewolf players must choose which of their original 5 abilities to swap out for one which grants Stealth Detection.

I argue that it's thematic and desirable for the Werewolf playstyle to be given Stealth Detection in some capacity, and the idea of sneaking to enable Stealth Detection is both thematic and a considerable tradeoff — you would be trading your Movement Speed for Stealth Detection, which isn't always a desirable tradeoff in PvP, anyway.

Yes, and I was clearly not suggesting WWs were not hunters. I was merely pointing out that the reasons provided for WW having detect were not really a WW reason, as they merely pointed out some areas where detect exists in the game.

As for any possible change, it should not be permanent. It should fall in line with the existing stealth detection skills.

Yes, which is why I suggested a condition, such as crouching in Werewolf form to trigger Stealth Detection the way the Sentry set does, because it plays an animation that looks like the character is actively using their nose to detect enemies.

If anything, it'd make more sense for Werewolf to get increased Stealth Detection Radius like Bosmer do in their Racial Passives, because like Bosmer, Werewolves are also acute hunters — but this wouldn't pull enemies out of Invisibility. For that, a Scribed Skill like the Werewolf equivalent of the Fighters Guild skill Expert Hunter would be most welcome.

Amottica

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

I agree. Here's a few reasons why Werewolf should have some form of Detect:

Werewolves who specialize in bringing players out of stealth exist in the game. Sentries are those enemies (particularly in Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood quests) who can pull players out of stealth. One such example is Dreadclaw, who appears at the end of a Heist in the Secluded Sewers when they are occupied by the Magnar Pack:

(The full video can be found here)

One thing to note is that this Sentry Werewolf character is using sneaking animations as they are trying to pull players out of stealth. This is very similar to the Sentry set, which gives the player Stealth Detection for 10 seconds once every 30 seconds when beginning to crouch. However, Player Werewolves cannot crouch, and thus they can not use this set the way Dreadclaw appears to be. If Werewolves were allowed to sneak, then we could simply use the Sentry set as our Stealth Detection.


Detect Potions are currently Werewolf's only source of Stealth Detection. Because Werewolf cannot slot non-Werewolf abilities, they are limited to what item sets they can equip and what Werewolf abilities they can slot. As mentioned above, Werewolves cannot even use the Sentry set because of the sneaking condition. So, the only way for a Werewolf to have Stealth Detection is to utilize Detect Potions.

---

Personally, I believe Werewolf should be allowed to sneak, and they should only have Stealth Detection around them when they are sneaking. This is similar to Dreadclaw and the Sentry set as described above. Alternatively, they could be given Stealth Detection from a future Werewolf Scribing skill, like some sort of Werewolf equivalent of Expert Hunter.

Regardless, both sneaking and detecting are thematic to Werewolves, and these are critical gameplay mechanics that put Werewolf at a disadvantage for lacking.

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_BrianWheeler

That does not seem to be as much a WW thing but merely a sentry thing. The same "skill" is seen on humans, elves, and beast races.

I am not suggesting nothing should change. Sure, give them some detect and take something else away to balance it out. Ofc, it could very well be removing or reducing something desirable.

Yes, the Sentry thing is not unique to Werewolves. Neither is detecting enemies in general. However, Werewolves are hunters, and they need to be able to track their prey. Dreadclaw happens to be a great example of that, but they're not the only Werewolf character who uses that prowling/hunting/sneaking animation.

I'm not sure what might be removed from Werewolf (if anything) to make room for Stealth Detection. Maybe it'll be sourced from a Scribed ability, so Werewolf players must choose which of their original 5 abilities to swap out for one which grants Stealth Detection.

I argue that it's thematic and desirable for the Werewolf playstyle to be given Stealth Detection in some capacity, and the idea of sneaking to enable Stealth Detection is both thematic and a considerable tradeoff — you would be trading your Movement Speed for Stealth Detection, which isn't always a desirable tradeoff in PvP, anyway.

Yes, and I was clearly not suggesting WWs were not hunters. I was merely pointing out that the reasons provided for WW having detect were not really a WW reason, as they merely pointed out some areas where detect exists in the game.

As for any possible change, it should not be permanent. It should fall in line with the existing stealth detection skills.

Yes, which is why I suggested a condition, such as crouching in Werewolf form to trigger Stealth Detection the way the Sentry set does, because it plays an animation that looks like the character is actively using their nose to detect enemies.

If anything, it'd make more sense for Werewolf to get increased Stealth Detection Radius like Bosmer do in their Racial Passives, because like Bosmer, Werewolves are also acute hunters — but this wouldn't pull enemies out of Invisibility. For that, a Scribed Skill like the Werewolf equivalent of the Fighters Guild skill Expert Hunter would be most welcome.

So, losing the Pursuit passive for this, as was suggested, might be a tradeoff Zenimax would consider.

Erickson9610

Amottica wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

I agree. Here's a few reasons why Werewolf should have some form of Detect:

Werewolves who specialize in bringing players out of stealth exist in the game. Sentries are those enemies (particularly in Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood quests) who can pull players out of stealth. One such example is Dreadclaw, who appears at the end of a Heist in the Secluded Sewers when they are occupied by the Magnar Pack:

(The full video can be found here)

One thing to note is that this Sentry Werewolf character is using sneaking animations as they are trying to pull players out of stealth. This is very similar to the Sentry set, which gives the player Stealth Detection for 10 seconds once every 30 seconds when beginning to crouch. However, Player Werewolves cannot crouch, and thus they can not use this set the way Dreadclaw appears to be. If Werewolves were allowed to sneak, then we could simply use the Sentry set as our Stealth Detection.


Detect Potions are currently Werewolf's only source of Stealth Detection. Because Werewolf cannot slot non-Werewolf abilities, they are limited to what item sets they can equip and what Werewolf abilities they can slot. As mentioned above, Werewolves cannot even use the Sentry set because of the sneaking condition. So, the only way for a Werewolf to have Stealth Detection is to utilize Detect Potions.

---

Personally, I believe Werewolf should be allowed to sneak, and they should only have Stealth Detection around them when they are sneaking. This is similar to Dreadclaw and the Sentry set as described above. Alternatively, they could be given Stealth Detection from a future Werewolf Scribing skill, like some sort of Werewolf equivalent of Expert Hunter.

Regardless, both sneaking and detecting are thematic to Werewolves, and these are critical gameplay mechanics that put Werewolf at a disadvantage for lacking.

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_BrianWheeler

That does not seem to be as much a WW thing but merely a sentry thing. The same "skill" is seen on humans, elves, and beast races.

I am not suggesting nothing should change. Sure, give them some detect and take something else away to balance it out. Ofc, it could very well be removing or reducing something desirable.

Yes, the Sentry thing is not unique to Werewolves. Neither is detecting enemies in general. However, Werewolves are hunters, and they need to be able to track their prey. Dreadclaw happens to be a great example of that, but they're not the only Werewolf character who uses that prowling/hunting/sneaking animation.

I'm not sure what might be removed from Werewolf (if anything) to make room for Stealth Detection. Maybe it'll be sourced from a Scribed ability, so Werewolf players must choose which of their original 5 abilities to swap out for one which grants Stealth Detection.

I argue that it's thematic and desirable for the Werewolf playstyle to be given Stealth Detection in some capacity, and the idea of sneaking to enable Stealth Detection is both thematic and a considerable tradeoff — you would be trading your Movement Speed for Stealth Detection, which isn't always a desirable tradeoff in PvP, anyway.

Yes, and I was clearly not suggesting WWs were not hunters. I was merely pointing out that the reasons provided for WW having detect were not really a WW reason, as they merely pointed out some areas where detect exists in the game.

As for any possible change, it should not be permanent. It should fall in line with the existing stealth detection skills.

Yes, which is why I suggested a condition, such as crouching in Werewolf form to trigger Stealth Detection the way the Sentry set does, because it plays an animation that looks like the character is actively using their nose to detect enemies.

If anything, it'd make more sense for Werewolf to get increased Stealth Detection Radius like Bosmer do in their Racial Passives, because like Bosmer, Werewolves are also acute hunters — but this wouldn't pull enemies out of Invisibility. For that, a Scribed Skill like the Werewolf equivalent of the Fighters Guild skill Expert Hunter would be most welcome.

So, losing the Pursuit passive for this, as was suggested, might be a tradeoff Zenimax would consider.

Stealth Detection should be added to the Pursuit passive without taking anything away. I also never mentioned removing the Pursuit passive (or any passive in particular) to make room for this. The tradeoff of crouching is your Movement Speed, and the tradeoff for a Scribed Skill is whatever other skill you replaced for it.

Erickson9610

If something had to be taken away from Werewolf to add Stealth Detection, here's my vote.

The Pursuit passive is themed after pursuing your prey. It increases your Movement Speed and increases the amount of Stamina you restore from Heavy Attacks.


The Heavy Attack passive here doesn't make sense thematically. I recognize that it's a sustain passive meant to help you keep sprinting after your enemies (as good as that does you against enemies who are streaking away while you're locked out of Pounce due to Carnage) but in practice, enemies easily outrange your Heavy Attacks since you also lack a snare removal.

I'd replace the Heavy Attack part with increased Stealth Detection Radius, like the Bosmer passive Hunter's Eye:


With the 30% Movement Speed and the 3 meters of Stealth Detection, a Werewolf could pursue their prey in the sense that they're tracking them down and chasing after them.


It's just frustrating to be at a deliberate disadvantage compared to every single Class when playing Werewolf and then to be asked to give something up in order to be buffed in some aspect. I certainly didn't see anyone asking Necromancer to be nerfed in exchange for receiving any buffs.

BXR_Lonestar

@Tommy_The_Gun

Simply adding a passive "always on" detection would be way too strong (and kinda game breaking) as it would effectively disable every form of stealth gameplay. Basically something like this would be free detection potion / skill that for the most part are considered a very powerful effects skill budget wise. Not to mention that with something like this, WW would become basically immune to ganks - which should not be the case.

Its not always on. Its only on when the werewolf is in werewolf form. And I think it is balanced because a werewolf is so weak in mortal form that it is part of the tradeoffs. The werewolf form cannot block nearly as effectively as they could in human form (especially if you are using s/b or ice staff). The werewolf is also vulnerable to ranged attacks - because the werewolf has no ranged attack other than to try to leap towards you and engage in melee combat upon arrival. Furthermore, the detection mechanic that I suggested would make instant detection/pull from stealth in a limited range, which means gankers can still gank so long as they are aware of the detection radius and start from outside of that radius.

I also don't think there is anything wrong with having hard counters things in games.

Erickson9610

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

I also don't think there is anything wrong with having hard counters things in games.

You know how players typically go with Vampire when making Stealth builds, because of passives like Dark Stalker and Strike from the Shadows?


A player can:

1. Choose Vampire to gain Stealth bonuses. They can still use human form abilities (Expert Hunter, Magelight, or Revealing Flare) to counter Stealthed players.
2. Remain non-cursed to not gain Vampire's Stealth bonuses but still retain the human form counters to Stealthed players.
3. Choose Werewolf to lose the ability to Stealth and lose access to human form abilities which counter Stealthed players.

Choosing Vampire for a Stealth build is a no-brainer. You can put up with the drawbacks of Stage 1 Vampire for the Dark Stalker passive, which makes Stealth gameplay much easier for a Vampire than for a non-cursed character. You would never go with Werewolf for a Stealth build because they lack the ability to Stealth in the first place. Werewolf also can't reveal Stealthed players the way non-cursed and Vampire characters can.

---

Since Werewolf is at such a disadvantage, and they're mutually exclusive from Vampire and the human form, what if Werewolf had a hard counter to Vampire's Stealth abilities?

If Vampire specializes in Stealth, then Werewolf should specialize in Stealth Detection. Of course, that's not to say that Werewolf shouldn't be allowed to Stealth themselves — after all, Vampire characters can utilize Stealth Detection skills despite specializing in Stealth.

So, allowing Werewolf to sneak and giving them some unique form of Stealth Detection would make Werewolf an option when considering a build that leans more heavily into Stealth Detection than into Stealth; in other words, the inverse of Vampire. That would make remaining non-cursed the "middle of the road" option to take between Stealth and Stealth Detection.

Celas_Dranacea

I’d be curious to hear from a dev but

1) I don’t think giving us the ability to detect stealth in some way would make ww’s unbalanced, I agree we have room for such a perk given our drawbacks

2) the fact that we cannot sneak is really annoying. I have to imagine that we don’t have it just because it would be a project to implement, not because of some balance issue

Ty for good discussion so far!

Erickson9610

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

2) the fact that we cannot sneak is really annoying. I have to imagine that we don’t have it just because it would be a project to implement, not because of some balance issue

My theory is that because there are unique Werewolf Stealth animations that only Player Werewolves can use if they were somehow able to sneak, that at one point, Werewolf was going to be allowed to sneak. There's a looping idle animation unique to players that can be seen in-game while Invisible with weapons sheathed (in the human form, this causes their idle stealth animation to play also), and players would utilize that prowling animation that the NPC Werewolves usually use if they could move around in stealth with toggle walk enabled.

The problem is that while you could sneak in TES III: Morrowind (Bloodmoon DLC), Werewolves were scrapped in TES IV: Oblivion (they only made it to a debug room on an unreleased PSP version) and suddenly reappeared in TES V: Skyrim (which released while ESO was in development, drastically changing the direction ESO took) but didn't have their ability to sneak from TES III and earlier. ESO's Werewolf implementation is heavily inspired by Skyrim's Werewolf implementation, from their appearance and initial two abilities (Pounce and Roar) to the transformation timer and their high Ultimate cost.

While it makes sense to make a temporary animation for an action that would go unused (to avoid any potential errors if it would somehow be triggered) it's likely that before Skyrim's release that every character would be designed to have the same core combat abilities, like bashing, sneaking, and dodge rolling. Unfortunately, I wasn't around during ESO's beta to see if Werewolf sneaking was unlocked or not.

---

As of now, I believe the only hurdles to unlocking Werewolf sneaking would be:

• Disabling the Blade of Woe synergy when crouching in Werewolf form, because those animations are incompatible with the Werewolf armature. I believe the proc condition for the Blade of Woe synergy doesn't currently check to see if you're not in Werewolf form before attempting to use it, because there'd be no reason to check for that condition if Werewolf couldn't sneak in the first place.
  • Vampire Feeding doesn't need to be considered because you can't use Werewolf Transformation if you have both Werewolf and Vampire, which you're not supposed to have simultaneously, anyway. As far as I know, there's currently no way to already be in Werewolf form and be granted the Vampire skill line, although it might've been possible a while back.
  • Possibly creating new assassination animations (including the catch-all ranged animation for when a target is in a bad position from yours) for Werewolf to replace the Blade of Woe animations when attempting to sneak attack an enemy in Werewolf form. This would be optional, but would be really cool!
• Figuring out what to do with the Werewolf Transformation timer when stealthed. Should it pause, slow down, run at the same rate, or something else? What happens when the player loses form when stealthed? Should the player be drawn out of stealth when that happens, or silently shift back into their human form while remaining in stealth?
• Sheathing/unsheathing your weapons in Werewolf form causes you to audibly howl, so that shouldn't be audible to enemies while stealthed.
• Pack Leader's dire wolves should also not be visible when Invisible or Stealthed, because they can reveal the player's location to enemy players.
• Polishing the existing stealth animations. Both the idle stealth animation and the prowling animation require the player to have their weapons sheathed. I suppose this is by design, as a stealthed Werewolf ready for combat may use animations similar to their standard animations, but it would be nice to have stealth animations for having weapons unsheathed. Further, the character defaults to the bipedal walk and jog cycles when weapons aren't sheathed, but uses the quadrupedal walk and jog cycles when they are sheathed. Maybe stealth should force your character into using only quadrupedal animations, regardless of whether your weapons are sheathed.

I don't know the ins and outs of how this game is structured and how it works, so there may be many more hurdles than I've considered to make this work in the modern day. However, there are already stealth animations, so at least those are taken care of.

The_Isatope8

I really like the idea of werewolves having a special niche in PvP, but just straight up stealth detection is a little strong so it needs to be balanced in a way that makes sense and feels completely unique to werewolf. Below is my idea for a rework of the 'Pursuit' passive that includes the ability to detect enemies while in beast form or your normal form, but to a lesser degree. Further details will be explained in the developer comment.

• Pursuit
  While transformed, increases your movement Speed by 30% and increase the Stamina your Heavy Attacks restore by 50%. Invisible enemies within 18 meters of you are marked for 10 seconds.
  
  While crouched and not transformed, you mark invisible enemies within of 12 meters after 1 second. Enemies revealed in this way are marked for 4 seconds.
  Developer Comment:
  Being able to detect stealthed enemies as a werewolf is a very interesting idea, but needs to work in a way that makes it unique and requires a little awareness to use. To this end, marking an enemy doesn't reveal their character model as with a stealth detection potion or pull them out of stealth like Magelight, instead it puts a large, thick haze in their approximate location to represent their scent. This effect is to counterbalance the fact that the stealth detection is permanent while transformed.
  
  Lycanthropes can sometimes retain some of the traits of their beast form, such as slightly heightened hearing and smell. Having passive stealth detection is all well and good, but shouldn't be limited just to their beast form. Having the ability to still detect enemies while not transformed would be useful in PvP and provide players with more utility while they're building up ultimate to transform. The effect can't be as strong as when transformed so you have to actively "sniff them out" to gain the benefit.

Since we can't actually test this, the whole idea is merely speculative in regard to balance or the lack thereof.

Celas_Dranacea

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

2) the fact that we cannot sneak is really annoying. I have to imagine that we don’t have it just because it would be a project to implement, not because of some balance issue

I don't know the ins and outs of how this game is structured and how it works, so there may be many more hurdles than I've considered to make this work in the modern day. However, there are already stealth animations, so at least those are taken care of.

Wow you laid all the issues out quite well. There does seem to be quite a few aspects to it, but seems achievable and very worthwhile

Celas_Dranacea

The_Isatope8 wrote: »

I really like the idea of werewolves having a special niche in PvP, but just straight up stealth detection is a little strong so it needs to be balanced in a way that makes sense and feels completely unique to werewolf. Below is my idea for a rework of the 'Pursuit' passive that includes the ability to detect enemies while in beast form or your normal form, but to a lesser degree. Further details will be explained in the developer comment.

• Pursuit
  While transformed, increases your movement Speed by 30% and increase the Stamina your Heavy Attacks restore by 50%. Invisible enemies within 18 meters of you are marked for 10 seconds.
  
  While crouched and not transformed, you mark invisible enemies within of 12 meters after 1 second. Enemies revealed in this way are marked for 4 seconds.
  
  Since we can't actually test this, the whole idea is merely speculative in regard to balance or the lack thereof.

This a good example for how detection could be implemented with some caveats to make it an interesting mechanic to play and not too powerful - cheers!

YandereGirlfriend

I'm not a WW player but there are some really cool ideas in here that I definitely would support.

In particular, the more mechanic/RP-based ideas such as those for tracking Bleeding targets and/or those that damage you, etc. to simulate actually using your WW senses. Those are much more interesting (and balanced) than something like an "always on" detection radius that is super huge.

Erickson9610

I think there should be some sort of preemptive Stealth Detection in Werewolf's toolkit. The equivalent of Piercing Mark would mean you'd still have no way to anticipate a gank from Stealth, because you'd have to see your target first.

Every other playstyle gets access to Expert Hunter, Magelight, and Revealing Flare, all of which are preemptive Stealth counters at the tradeoff of being expensive and having a short duration. I think a Scribed skill for Werewolf that serves this function would work the best — but I wouldn't be opposed to a slightly increased Stealth Detection radius in the Werewolf passives the way Bosmer have it in their passives.

BXR_Lonestar

Erickson9610 wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

I also don't think there is anything wrong with having hard counters things in games.

You know how players typically go with Vampire when making Stealth builds, because of passives like Dark Stalker and Strike from the Shadows?


A player can:

1. Choose Vampire to gain Stealth bonuses. They can still use human form abilities (Expert Hunter, Magelight, or Revealing Flare) to counter Stealthed players.
2. Remain non-cursed to not gain Vampire's Stealth bonuses but still retain the human form counters to Stealthed players.
3. Choose Werewolf to lose the ability to Stealth and lose access to human form abilities which counter Stealthed players.

Choosing Vampire for a Stealth build is a no-brainer. You can put up with the drawbacks of Stage 1 Vampire for the Dark Stalker passive, which makes Stealth gameplay much easier for a Vampire than for a non-cursed character. You would never go with Werewolf for a Stealth build because they lack the ability to Stealth in the first place. Werewolf also can't reveal Stealthed players the way non-cursed and Vampire characters can.

---

Since Werewolf is at such a disadvantage, and they're mutually exclusive from Vampire and the human form, what if Werewolf had a hard counter to Vampire's Stealth abilities?

If Vampire specializes in Stealth, then Werewolf should specialize in Stealth Detection. Of course, that's not to say that Werewolf shouldn't be allowed to Stealth themselves — after all, Vampire characters can utilize Stealth Detection skills despite specializing in Stealth.

So, allowing Werewolf to sneak and giving them some unique form of Stealth Detection would make Werewolf an option when considering a build that leans more heavily into Stealth Detection than into Stealth; in other words, the inverse of Vampire. That would make remaining non-cursed the "middle of the road" option to take between Stealth and Stealth Detection.

Yes, I think this approach is definitely something I could get behind.

ioResult

Yeah the game needs yet another way to pull players out of stealth.

And all the usual suspects who hate stealth as a mechanic in the game are jumping on the bandwagon in this thread to agree.

*SHOCKING*

Erickson9610

ioResult wrote: »

Yeah the game needs yet another way to pull players out of stealth.

And all the usual suspects who hate stealth as a mechanic in the game are jumping on the bandwagon in this thread to agree.

*SHOCKING*

This thread isn't bashing Stealth builds. I'd genuinely play a Stealth build in Werewolf form if I could. The problem is that this particular playstyle is already severely disadvantaged on that front.

Why shouldn't Werewolf be able to use Stealth and Stealth Detection the way every human form build can sneak and use Expert Hunter/Magelight/Revealing Flare? Stealth isn't exclusive to Nightblades, so there should be more access into that system (and its counterplays) for other playstyles.

ViggyBoi

werewolves cant sneak, but the sneaking animations exist in the game. As a trade off for that, when you start to sneak, entering a "hunting" mode where you have like a 8 or so meter detection radius feel both thematically flavorful and another way to incorporate more into the werewolf kit that literally every other player has access to. Sneaking is like a toggle, you dont recover stam when sneaking and have reduced movement speed so there's somewhat of a trade off. Of course the biggest one is your inability to sneak yourself so I agree it would be fair to have some easily accessible anti sneak counterplay that doesnt cost you your potion.