Thoughts from someone who has been playing since 2013 (beta)

Jaimeh · October 18

It's the writing, it has gone downhill since Elsweyr (where, incidentally, we had one of the last big NPC sacrifices), the quality of the stories we get now is really low compared to the base game and, what was peak storytelling imo, the CWC/Summerset era. I don't know how much their writing team changed throughout the years, and whether the fact that the Loremaster position also changed a few times has played a part, but the difference is like that between night and day. Nothing has consequences anymore, and whatever happens in each chapter, we can still expect at the end a nice gathering to celebrate the Vestige, which while very moving and beautiful the first time around, becomes trite and meaningless by the 5th... They need to change their formula. Also, I really wish they hadn't done the Ithelia storyline or that they had done it much differently; they invented a new Daedric Prince whose powers have so many consequeces for the whole TES universe (how does her powers fit into the concepts of world-eating entities in the universe, for instance) but not really talking about how she affected the past, besides what Hermaeus Mora told us, and built her up as a terrible antagonist only to get rid of her very quickly and neatly. I would much rather have them do inane political drama like in High Isle, than half-heartedly invent new lore, and give us forgettable stories that fiz out the moment you close the dialogue screen. Another thing I recently noticed with the writing is that stories and dialogues have a lot of modern tv tropes but also generally speech that we see in media today (the blurb about a pet that was something like 'I've just seen it but it's so cute I'm ready to die for it' and the 'valkynazes' plural are two of the most recent things that seemed too much like internet speech to me) that are a sharp turn from the previous years in the game. The stories feel tiring, formulaic, more like a cheap thrill and lacking in depth, unfunny humour, with a Hero who sometimes feels like a robot, and antagonists that are either boring or like an evil carricatoure (by the way OP, I also love Rada-al-Saran, he was one of the most interesting villains we've had and I liked how his motivations were complex so that defeating him didn't feel like a true victory. I wish they wrote more villains like this).

Pelanora · October 19

The fox in the scribing quest was where they hit absolute rock bottom- so far, I can only hope things climb back up from there, rather than 2025 showing us even more zos spelunking.

If they were a tv show, there'd be more Ithelia next year, but I think they'll do something different.

But over and above the story and it's arc etc etc, I need some agency in the choices I'm given, and the naration of events by NPC. Necrom and gold road treated me like I was a total utter idiot.

Syldras · October 19

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Not so true in this chapter. The last boss battle was a long, drawn-out process with all those invulnerability and add phases. I don’t advocate making story mode battles any more difficult because there are already players who cannot finish them. The stories should be for every skill level, especially beginners. I don’t enjoy long battles for that content myself because the character I do them on is not my trials character and I am there for the story. Save the furious button mashing for hard mode trials, PvP and IA.

I agree that fights within story content should be doable for everyone - although ideally, there would be different difficulty options (and also, just throwing in immunity phases doesn't really add to a fight being more demanding or complex, in my opinion). I'd also love to see harder puzzles, with an option to skip them, btw.

But I think Elsonso had story/dialogues in mind, not fights? When it comes to that, I think a bit more complexity and especially giving the player character choices would be preferable. So we get the feeling that our deeds actually have an influence on the story, instead of us just running from checkpoint to checkpoint on a prescribed path, basically just like being the viewer of a movie. I understand that in an MMO we can't have big choices that change the whole story of Tamriel, but with good writing, it should be possible to give the player at least an illusion that what they are saying or doing somehow matters.

Jaimeh wrote: »

Another thing I recently noticed with the writing is that stories and dialogues have a lot of modern tv tropes but also generally speech that we see in media today (the blurb about a pet that was something like 'I've just seen it but it's so cute I'm ready to die for it' and the 'valkynazes' plural are two of the most recent things that seemed too much like internet speech to me) that are a sharp turn from the previous years in the game.

Luckily, this is not that noticeable in the translation I'm playing (tropes - yes, but not speech). Makes me wonder though whether ZOS does that on purpose because they think this is what players want (or that it was a successful method to attract new, younger audiences; the next generation that grew old enough to play an MMO within the last 10 years, so to say - reminds me of some older teachers who try to act "cool" and "youthful" to appeal to students, but fail horribly in the process), or whether the current writers actually frequently consume these types of media and basically mimic what is familiar to them (we are all influenced by what we're exposed to, after all). Or maybe they wrote exactly these things before they joined ZOS? Well, in any way, it's not exactly what I like to see in a fantasy series that formerly made a more complex and "mature" impression (speaking of TES as a whole).

LikiLoki · October 19

Tamriel's world is cruel. But the player doesn't feel it, because the whole atmosphere in the game is too light, everything is superficial, there is no depth. Corpses, deaths, horrors from other dimensions - they are all cartoon, plush toys, where there is not even tomato paste in the form of blood.

Syldras · October 19

LikiLoki wrote: »

there is not even tomato paste in the form of blood.

There is when you use the Blade of Woe. I had loading issues once where it was white instead of red though - but who knows, maybe Argonians are filled with mayonnaise

colossalvoids · October 19

Pelanora wrote: »

The fox in the scribing quest was where they hit absolute rock bottom- so far, I can only hope things climb back up from there, rather than 2025 showing us even more zos spelunking.

...

Necrom and gold road treated me like I was a total utter idiot.

I mean I'm still not sure was it the fox or whole "main" storyline where we've just accompanied the quest with our presence doing literally nothing, helping the antagonist(s) etc. at least fox part was brief in comparison and I'm surely not gonna ever repeat that one for my own sanity.

Syldras · October 19

colossalvoids wrote: »

whole "main" storyline where we've just accompanied the quest with our presence doing literally nothing, helping the antagonist(s) etc.

What, you did nothing? In my headcanon I did a lot of things

It's 80% headcanon by now, I'd say... And that's sad if this becomes more engaging than what we actually get presented (and most ideas aren't even really triggered by what's on screen; can't even say it makes me think much - although I did wonder why we assisted Ithelia at that one point, though...).

colossalvoids · October 19

Syldras wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

whole "main" storyline where we've just accompanied the quest with our presence doing literally nothing, helping the antagonist(s) etc.

What, you did nothing? In my headcanon I did a lot of things It's 80% headcanon by now, I'd say... And that's sad if this becomes more engaging than what we actually get presented (and most ideas aren't even really triggered by what's on screen; can't even say it makes me think much - although I did wonder why we assisted Ithelia at that one point, though...).

I was still under immobilisation effect from Scribing skill line completion, my thoughts were mostly occupied with how strange designs of some dungeons were more akin to modded oblivion rather than developers work, sigh. I mean the more Ayleid statues the better but they've forgot to make places lived in at some point by actual beings instead of being a decoration.

fizzylu · October 19

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Just think they did better stories in the smaller DLC's.

Reading this, I realize that most of the zones where I did pay almost full attention to the story and not mindlessly click were DLCs. Dragonhold, Markarth, the Fargrave stuff, I thought Galen was way more interesting than actual High Isle.... it's kind of odd because one would think they'd have the same writers to some extent.

Jaimeh · October 19

Syldras wrote: »

or whether the current writers actually frequently consume these types of media and basically mimic what is familiar to them (we are all influenced by what we're exposed to, after all). Well, in any way, it's not exactly what I like to see in a fantasy series that formerly made a more complex and "mature" impression (speaking of TES as a whole).

I think this is spot on (and why I think they had changes in their team), and like you said earlier in the comment, probably to attract a younger audience. But it does feel out of place compared to previous writing and to the universe as a whole.

Syldras · October 19

Jaimeh wrote: »

I think this is spot on (and why I think they had changes in their team), and like you said earlier in the comment, probably to attract a younger audience. But it does feel out of place compared to previous writing and to the universe as a whole.

I mean, I should probably not take myself as the standard as I've always had a bit of an unusual taste, but I'm wondering if younger people aren't severely underestimated in this case. Do they really want to see simple and cliché characters and online memes in a medieval fantasy game? When I think of myself as well as friends back then - talking about the time when we were teens or young adults (which isn't even that long ago, actually, I'm in my mid/late 30's now) - , we liked roleplaying and classic fantasy novels because they were a thing on their own, with a specific style, a specific language, or to put it short: with certain genre expectations. We would have not liked them if they were memes (or whatever kind of mass entertainment) just with elves, orcs and wizards.

I think a good writing team would have to consist of different people, maybe of different ages (although that might not be entirely neccessary), who have knowledge about a big variety of different literature. I've wrote it earlier in this or another similar thread (there have been a few lately): If a writer's only input is memes, one can't expect to be the output to be something different.

Which reminds me: Didn't they explicitly mention during the Necrom reveal stream that one of their writers' influences for companions were memes? I think I had complained about it before

fizzylu wrote: »

Reading this, I realize that most of the zones where I did pay almost full attention to the story and not mindlessly click were DLCs. Dragonhold, Markarth, the Fargrave stuff, I thought Galen was way more interesting than actual High Isle.... it's kind of odd because one would think they'd have the same writers to some extent.

I have the same impression - Q4 dlcs were usually more interesting story-wise than the summer chapters.

DinoZavr · October 19

i am to agree. with newer zones, player is being emotionally disconnected from the world.
i was eagerly waiting for High Isle story which was promised to be focused on politics, rather than destroying an evil superhero to save the world from inevitable catastrophe.
well.. i have to place a spolier tag here.

first: the Wrothgar (Orsinium) story is great, so making anything better than that would be totally awesome. The actual result was, unfortunately, not even close.
second: the opportunity Zeni missed (imho) is to depict two "grey" foes - both with noble goals, both with some cruel methods, both with good noble and bad deceitful and greedy NPCs. And to make player decide which side to join. With consequences for each of the major outcomes. Like making High Isle an autocracy, protecting its own population and warmongering Cyrodiil, or helping Alliance leaders at the price of turning most of druids factions and big part of citizens from neutral into persistent aggressive foes (Bethesda has such experience - Fallout stories have multiple different endings, and FO3.5 ones are quite impressive). At least these could be a very noticeable impact.
Nope. Actually it was very clear who are team red and ream blue, with no opportunity to make a wrong choice. The world is saved, huzzah! And what story characters except Lady Arabelle Davaux can you remember after completing the zone quest?
Even ToT questline is less forgettable, as you definitely remember who Brahgas, Sorinne, and Master Razhamad are.

And yes, Tamriel is no longer a world of despair. To be taken as lightly as Angry Birds game. It is a miss, in my opinion.

DinoZavr · October 19

Syldras wrote: »

fizzylu wrote: »

Reading this, I realize that most of the zones where I did pay almost full attention to the story and not mindlessly click were DLCs. Dragonhold, Markarth, the Fargrave stuff, I thought Galen was way more interesting than actual High Isle.... it's kind of odd because one would think they'd have the same writers to some extent.

I have the same impression - Q4 dlcs were usually more interesting story-wise than the summer chapters.

i also have the same impression. i can only speculate that "one year long story" first was written as a whole, and only after that artificially subdivided into Q2 with a smaller baddie, and Q4 with a bigger one. In this way most intense part naturally falls onto Q4.
Also Gold Road is, apparently, the Necrom pt.2.
The most contrast was of course, Greymoor & Markarth. Greymoor story is long and even rich, but very predictable, so i was not expecting some serious intrigues and/or plot twists. It is solid, but only that. in Q4 big baddie had kinda noble goals, and that made Markarth really good, involving player way more that in Greymoor.
starting from Elsweyr second ("finale") parts were more vivid (at least for me) than theirs big Chapter ("starters") questlines.

Stafford197 · October 19

Amazing post!! I totally agree except on one thing, which is that I do not believe ZOS can change anymore

I’ve been so disappointed by Gold Road… truly I want this game to do much better but I’ve got to see it to believe it. No more blind hope from me.

Elsonso · October 19

Syldras wrote: »

But I think Elsonso had story/dialogues in mind, not fights? When it comes to that, I think a bit more complexity and especially giving the player character choices would be preferable. So we get the feeling that our deeds actually have an influence on the story, instead of us just running from checkpoint to checkpoint on a prescribed path, basically just like being the viewer of a movie. I understand that in an MMO we can't have big choices that change the whole story of Tamriel, but with good writing, it should be possible to give the player at least an illusion that what they are saying or doing somehow matters.

Yes. The assumption is that any boss fights in the game are ultimately going to resolve in the favor of the player. This is especially true when the death of the boss is preordained and must happen for the story to continue. Of course, the whole outcome of the story is preordained, so that isn't much of a revelation. That is part of why we are just the audience in the story, pushing buttons to move it forward.

It is also why boss fights cannot be overwhelming, as the outcome is that the boss dies. If the player cannot accomplish this, the story stops. Ergo, the player needs to kill the boss and be able to accomplish this with a reasonable amount of ease.

Syldras wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

Another thing I recently noticed with the writing is that stories and dialogues have a lot of modern tv tropes but also generally speech that we see in media today (the blurb about a pet that was something like 'I've just seen it but it's so cute I'm ready to die for it' and the 'valkynazes' plural are two of the most recent things that seemed too much like internet speech to me) that are a sharp turn from the previous years in the game.

Luckily, this is not that noticeable in the translation I'm playing (tropes - yes, but not speech). Makes me wonder though whether ZOS does that on purpose because they think this is what players want (or that it was a successful method to attract new, younger audiences; the next generation that grew old enough to play an MMO within the last 10 years, so to say - reminds me of some older teachers who try to act "cool" and "youthful" to appeal to students, but fail horribly in the process), or whether the current writers actually frequently consume these types of media and basically mimic what is familiar to them (we are all influenced by what we're exposed to, after all). Or maybe they wrote exactly these things before they joined ZOS? Well, in any way, it's not exactly what I like to see in a fantasy series that formerly made a more complex and "mature" impression (speaking of TES as a whole).

Writing teams often stray from their scope. Real world priorities like to take hold and manifest. With ESO, they simply expand the lore to include whatever real world thing they want to address. If they had to. If lore does not conflict, then ZOS is free to do whatever BGS lets them do, I guess.

World of Warcraft did this a lot and it was not unusual to wander across things like the "CSI Miami" character. I never got the impression they took their stories seriously. They were more of an open joke.

Syldras · October 19

Elsonso wrote: »

Yes. The assumption is that any boss fights in the game are ultimately going to resolve in the favor of the player. This is especially true when the death of the boss is preordained and must happen for the story to continue. Of course, the whole outcome of the story is preordained, so that isn't much of a revelation. That is part of why we are just the audience in the story, pushing buttons to move it forward.

What other story outcomes could we imagine (let's go down this route for now, without questioning it first)?
The big evil flees (and might return in a later story).
The big evil might somehow change their opinion or plans.
The story could end with a tie.
The player character could be partially successful.
The player character could be forced to retreat; maybe - not to make it completely depressing - at least being able to save (some) people.
The player character could fail, e.g. to stop a certain event, with no chance to try again (for now).

Now the question is: What of this could be narrated in a way that doesn't make players protest?

I personally wouldn't mind an ending that is only a partial success.

Or, even better: Maybe even something where the player character "fails" in what was planned according to the chapter story, but somehow causes a different turn that leads to an already known event from well-known older TES lore - the player's deeds basically filling a gap in lore, becoming an explanation how and why something happens later. Of course for people who are not familiar with most TES lore, this might be boring, I don't know. I only know that I'd probably enjoy the ending when things become clear, no matter if it was a "success" or a "failure" storywise.

Elsonso wrote: »

Writing teams often stray from their scope. Real world priorities like to take hold and manifest. With ESO, they simply expand the lore to include whatever real world thing they want to address. If they had to. If lore does not conflict, then ZOS is free to do whatever BGS lets them do, I guess.
World of Warcraft did this a lot and it was not unusual to wander across things like the "CSI Miami" character. I never got the impression they took their stories seriously. They were more of an open joke.

Maybe one should not hire writers who spend most of their times browsing memes then

Dahveed · October 20

FabresFour wrote: »

I mean, the last time I felt any urgency in ESO was with Markarth, when Arana, an incredible NPC, died, and I decided I would keep playing just to avenge her. And then, suddenly, the story brings her back… Why? Why throw away the impact, the suffering?

I just finished Markarth, and when Arana came back I rolled my eyes so hard at this it gave me a headache.

Also Verandis comes back... twice.

And all those people in Markarth save by some fricken miracle...

And all the leaders and NPCs I saved all standing around clapping for me, and they all lived happily ever after.

*puke*

It's like a Saturday morning cartoon. You are correct, and the word "caricature" is aptly chosen.

Dahveed · October 20

Elsonso wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I did enjoy the Ithelia story, but it seemed to wrap unexpectedly, the Recollection story was an awkward tie in, it all had its moments but it seemed like the budget ran out before the story was completed. I think the writers like to shepherd the player with npc guidance that tends to take up too much time instead of letting the player figure out what to do and resolve the situation. I mean we had both Beregon and the Skingrad legion lady this time. Maybe we need more action and less dialogue.

ZOS stories are too "easy chair accessible". They are like watching a movie that won't progress until you press a button, then it continues on. The button is a meaningless signal to continue. The quest actions are busy work that lead to the point where the button is pressed that moves the story forward. The entire purpose of the player is to press that button.

We are zombies.

I was talking about this kind of stuff on a WoW forum about 10 years ago... One commenter said it best: "I'm not playing the game. The game is playing me."

The game will just truck along regardless of your actions. There is nothing you can do to influence the outcome (other than dying repeatedly because you are very, very bad at video games and just quit). The bad guy will die and they will all tell me how awesome I am. And give me a reward.

Don't get me wrong, the story is interesting enough... But there are never any consequences, and the player has almost no agency whatsoever.

katanagirl1 · October 20

Elsonso wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

But I think Elsonso had story/dialogues in mind, not fights? When it comes to that, I think a bit more complexity and especially giving the player character choices would be preferable. So we get the feeling that our deeds actually have an influence on the story, instead of us just running from checkpoint to checkpoint on a prescribed path, basically just like being the viewer of a movie. I understand that in an MMO we can't have big choices that change the whole story of Tamriel, but with good writing, it should be possible to give the player at least an illusion that what they are saying or doing somehow matters.

Yes. The assumption is that any boss fights in the game are ultimately going to resolve in the favor of the player. This is especially true when the death of the boss is preordained and must happen for the story to continue. Of course, the whole outcome of the story is preordained, so that isn't much of a revelation. That is part of why we are just the audience in the story, pushing buttons to move it forward.

It is also why boss fights cannot be overwhelming, as the outcome is that the boss dies. If the player cannot accomplish this, the story stops. Ergo, the player needs to kill the boss and be able to accomplish this with a reasonable amount of ease.

Syldras wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

Another thing I recently noticed with the writing is that stories and dialogues have a lot of modern tv tropes but also generally speech that we see in media today (the blurb about a pet that was something like 'I've just seen it but it's so cute I'm ready to die for it' and the 'valkynazes' plural are two of the most recent things that seemed too much like internet speech to me) that are a sharp turn from the previous years in the game.

Luckily, this is not that noticeable in the translation I'm playing (tropes - yes, but not speech). Makes me wonder though whether ZOS does that on purpose because they think this is what players want (or that it was a successful method to attract new, younger audiences; the next generation that grew old enough to play an MMO within the last 10 years, so to say - reminds me of some older teachers who try to act "cool" and "youthful" to appeal to students, but fail horribly in the process), or whether the current writers actually frequently consume these types of media and basically mimic what is familiar to them (we are all influenced by what we're exposed to, after all). Or maybe they wrote exactly these things before they joined ZOS? Well, in any way, it's not exactly what I like to see in a fantasy series that formerly made a more complex and "mature" impression (speaking of TES as a whole).

Writing teams often stray from their scope. Real world priorities like to take hold and manifest. With ESO, they simply expand the lore to include whatever real world thing they want to address. If they had to. If lore does not conflict, then ZOS is free to do whatever BGS lets them do, I guess.

World of Warcraft did this a lot and it was not unusual to wander across things like the "CSI Miami" character. I never got the impression they took their stories seriously. They were more of an open joke.

OK, I thought you were referring to the boss battles because I think I had already stated that the npc dialogue was a bit too verbose. Oftentimes you are just waiting for the npcs to finish so you can go do something. I do admit I go through all the dialogue options because I don’t want to miss anything. So some of it is my fault.

If the story is interesting enough and resolves in a satisfactory way for me, I don’t mind clicking through all that dialogue.

Elsonso · October 20

katanagirl1 wrote: »

If the story is interesting enough and resolves in a satisfactory way for me, I don’t mind clicking through all that dialogue.

I don't mind clicking through multiple dialogs if it is necessary to circumvent a limit to a single dialog entry.

However, if all I am doing is clicking through some bedtime story that does not really require my input, then I am just being patient until I fall asleep...

Mavloc · October 20

Jaimeh wrote: »

It's the writing, it has gone downhill since Elsweyr (where, incidentally, we had one of the last big NPC sacrifices), the quality of the stories we get now is really low compared to the base game and, what was peak storytelling imo, the CWC/Summerset era. I don't know how much their writing team changed throughout the years, and whether the fact that the Loremaster position also changed a few times has played a part, but the difference is like that between night and day. Nothing has consequences anymore, and whatever happens in each chapter, we can still expect at the end a nice gathering to celebrate the Vestige, which while very moving and beautiful the first time around, becomes trite and meaningless by the 5th... They need to change their formula. Also, I really wish they hadn't done the Ithelia storyline or that they had done it much differently; they invented a new Daedric Prince whose powers have so many consequeces for the whole TES universe (how does her powers fit into the concepts of world-eating entities in the universe, for instance) but not really talking about how she affected the past, besides what Hermaeus Mora told us, and built her up as a terrible antagonist only to get rid of her very quickly and neatly. I would much rather have them do inane political drama like in High Isle, than half-heartedly invent new lore, and give us forgettable stories that fiz out the moment you close the dialogue screen. Another thing I recently noticed with the writing is that stories and dialogues have a lot of modern tv tropes but also generally speech that we see in media today (the blurb about a pet that was something like 'I've just seen it but it's so cute I'm ready to die for it' and the 'valkynazes' plural are two of the most recent things that seemed too much like internet speech to me) that are a sharp turn from the previous years in the game. The stories feel tiring, formulaic, more like a cheap thrill and lacking in depth, unfunny humour, with a Hero who sometimes feels like a robot, and antagonists that are either boring or like an evil carricatoure (by the way OP, I also love Rada-al-Saran, he was one of the most interesting villains we've had and I liked how his motivations were complex so that defeating him didn't feel like a true victory. I wish they wrote more villains like this).

I just came back to the game and hearing about Ithelia is... Yikes.

Did no one explain to Zenimax what exactly the Elder Scrolls are, and what they do?

Juomuuri · October 21

Oh neat, I made a similar thread a few weeks ago about the decline of the side quest quality, and now I have something more to add after comparing even more of the old content to the new content:

The biggest reason why I feel the writing has declined is that NPCs aren't talking to us like it's a conversation anymore. They are just exposition dispenders and this also explains why they repeat the same thing to you 3 times in under a minute... And this is incredibly frustrating, as it comes off as "oh of course we need to info dump you, no one actually listens/reads these" instead of the old style of like, natural-ish conversation where you actually have dialogue options. And the old content also includes the persuasion and intimidation options a lot more, too. It's like a slap to the face to go from the "this is an active convo" dialogue to the "let's dump this stuff like you're reading a wiki".

I noticed this after finishing Firesong (the WORST offender of the info dump dialogue) and comparing it to Morrowind and Clockwork City, the latter of which I'm currently in the process of replaying. Another thing I HATE is when the follower NPCs in the quests point out things in a way that makes it sound so out of place, as if they're commenting on your gameplay instead of like.... being actualy characters in the world???? I want to punch Lady Arabelle and Frii so bad lmao.

Like, you can tell an objectively bad story, but if the dialogue is enjoyable and the ride is fun, that doesn't matter much (it's entertainment after all). But when you have horrifyingly dull and preachy dialogue companied with bad writing, it's how we get stuff like Firesong, my eternal enemy (both Necrom and Gold Road are slightly less annoying than that...)